Iwi and/or Ancestral Bones

[manoasurfer123]

Another Cave is being desecrated in Puna on the Big Island.

The family had registered it 17 years ago however, the State lost the documents!

And now a builder is building houses on the property!

Alvarez famiy I feel for your fight right now!

[timkona]

It is, indeed, an interesting cultural tradition to bury the bones of deceased loved ones on property other than your own.

I just can't imagine walking into Manoa's backyard, digging a hole, and laying Grandpa to rest. Or for that matter, somebody coming to my backyard to bury a body, or claim that some of my land has their bones on it. I would gladly give the bones back to the claimant with no fuss. Why not? And when they left, why didn't they take Grandma with them? After all, they took the pots, pans, cat, couch, etc.

I wonder why so many heiau's, gravesites, and other cultural locations sit abandoned, covered in Christmas Berry, and forgotten until a property owner decides to build a house. Seems to me, if all these locations were truly important, that somebody would tend them, or malama aina. :confused:

[manoasurfer123]

It is, indeed, an interesting cultural tradition to bury the bones of deceased loved ones on property other than your own.

I just can't imagine walking into Manoa's backyard, digging a hole, and laying Grandpa to rest. Or for that matter, somebody coming to my backyard to bury a body, or claim that some of my land has their bones on it. I would gladly give the bones back to the claimant with no fuss. Why not? And when they left, why didn't they take Grandma with them? After all, they took the pots, pans, cat, couch, etc.

I wonder why so many heiau's, gravesites, and other cultural locations sit abandoned, covered in Christmas Berry, and forgotten until a property owner decides to build a house. Seems to me, if all these locations were truly important, that somebody would tend them, or malama aina. :confused:
TK -

Why did I know you woud be the first to try and break this down to Manoa's style....

In the early 60's my grandparents specifically bought land from a Hawaiian family out in Puako.... When my grandparents bought the land...they had no idea that anything was on the property.

In the early 70's they sold the property for quite a bit of money...still with no knowledge that the property had ancestral bones on the land....

Before my grandfather passed away... he told me that had he known that the land had ancestral bones... A) he wouldn't have purchased the land in the first place... B) Had he ever found out the land had bones... he would have never sold the land ever.
C) I understand and have read your previous bullshit on this subject. D) I will not participate too much more do the nature of the subject...

I wanted to bring it to the attention of HT readers and on behalf of 20 year old Keoni Alvarez who has protected the Iwi for all of his life.

[helen]

Are they building house insides or on top of the caves? Or just access to the caves are going to go away?

[manoasurfer123]

I'm not sure of the exact details...
Will update when I have more info.

[Jonah K]

Are they building house insides or on top of the caves? Or just access to the caves are going to go away?
Usually, they'll just bulldoze the lava tube (or "cave") and simply build the house nearby. :rolleyes:

Plenty of properties in Puna have lava tubes on them that probably contain iwi. In the past, it was simply easier to find an empty lava tube instead of trying to dig a grave in lava rock or building a masoleum. However, there are also plenty of properties here that don't have lava tubes. :cool:

From what I understand, the developer purchased the land for a mere $51K. One would think that the extended Alvarez 'ohana could have come up with the funds to purchase the land to prevent it from being developed. :confused:

[timkona]

One would think that the extended Alvarez 'ohana could have come up with the funds to purchase the land to prevent it from being developed.

Why buy the land ???? Already using the land to bury family. Already preventing somebody from doing what they want to do with land that they "supposedly" own. Already acting like you own it. And with all those land rights already in place, $51k can seem like a King's Ransom.

No need to spend money on something that you already have.

It is quite common in Hawaii for people to disrupt land owner's rights. This is normal in Hawaii. And it's not always just bones. Why did that Beatle guy move from Maui?

Funny how nobody is labeling Alvarez as the villain here. Naaaah, that would be too truthful.

[manoasurfer123]

One would think that the extended Alvarez 'ohana could have come up with the funds to purchase the land to prevent it from being developed.
It shouldn't have been sold to begin with. It was protected land and the STATE lost the paper work deeming it as such.

[timkona]

To obtain the rights to use a piece of land without money is simple in Hawaii.

Just bury a loved one on a piece of land that you really like. Since dead people are way more important that living people, the land is now yours.

If I can't wait for Grandma to kick the bucket, can I use a pet?

[Jonah K]

Why buy the land ???? Already using the land to bury family. Already preventing somebody from doing what they want to do with land that they "supposedly" own. Already acting like you own it. And with all those land rights already in place, $51k can seem like a King's Ransom.

No need to spend money on something that you already have.

It is quite common in Hawaii for people to disrupt land owner's rights. This is normal in Hawaii. And it's not always just bones. Why did that Beatle guy move from Maui?

Funny how nobody is labeling Alvarez as the villain here. Naaaah, that would be too truthful.
Strangely, $51K probably didn't seem like a "king's ransom" when some Alvarez family members were shopping for luxury SUVs. ;)

[craigwatanabe]

One thing I've learned living here all my life is that even if you own a piece of property, there is still an inherent obligation to perpetuate the sacredness of it that you either knew of or learned of after the fact.

I own my one acre of land here in Keaau. This land has been here for eons and has a lava mound on it. When I change the landscape of my property, I begin with a prayer asking for permission to alter it's natural state or remove a tree.

As guardians of this land it is necessary that we utilize it for the benefit of mankind yet maintain it's balance with the spiritual world. The lands around us nurture our bodies as we grow and accept our bodies when we die. It is OUR final resting place and we need to ensure that the land will accept our mortal bodies as we pass on.

Even in the Bible our mortal bodies were created out of the dusts of the Earth and there it returns. God gave that body the breath of life...our spirit, so our lives are connected with Mother Earth and we must protect that mortal connection (the Earth) to our spiritual realm in order to maintain balance in our daily lives.

Respect the Aina and it will reward you with life. Disrespect it and it will devour us as it is now.

[Glen Miyashiro]

The whole concept of a place being sacred because someone died there, or is buried there, troubles me. I mean, people have been living, and dying, and being buried, on this earth for a long, long time. It would probably be hard to find a spot of ground on which someone hasn't died at some point. :(

[sinjin]

One thing I've learned living here all my life is that even if you own a piece of property, there is still an inherent obligation to perpetuate the sacredness of it that you either knew of or learned of after the fact.

I own my one acre of land here in Keaau. This land has been here for eons and has a lava mound on it. When I change the landscape of my property, I begin with a prayer asking for permission to alter it's natural state or remove a tree.

As guardians of this land it is necessary that we utilize it for the benefit of mankind yet maintain it's balance with the spiritual world. The lands around us nurture our bodies as we grow and accept our bodies when we die. It is OUR final resting place and we need to ensure that the land will accept our mortal bodies as we pass on.

Even in the Bible our mortal bodies were created out of the dusts of the Earth and there it returns. God gave that body the breath of life...our spirit, so our lives are connected with Mother Earth and we must protect that mortal connection (the Earth) to our spiritual realm in order to maintain balance in our daily lives.

Respect the Aina and it will reward you with life. Disrespect it and it will devour us as it is now.

I want to be sensitive to perceived connections with ancestors through their mortal remains without believing in spiritual realms/worlds since I don't.

[timkona]

Build a big fire, set me on top, then scatter my ashes at sea. What does the Bible say about that? What about the Quran?

How bout this?
GET OFF MY LAND !! TRESPASSERS WILL BE EATEN.

Spirituality, Make-Believe, Religion, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. All the same.
Try Reality for a while. Reality is fun. Reality is real. Reality is where the rational mind exists. Cover the bones deeper. Build on.

Spirituality is for half-wit, pretenders with little stomach for the real world.

Sorry to sound so harsh. But that's the balls-truth of it.

Good Grief !?

[beaker]

As guardians of this land it is necessary that we utilize it for the benefit of mankind yet maintain it's balance with the spiritual world.

The land is for the benefit of nature first, foremost, and primarily. Mankind is
just a squatter. (and an ungrateful one, at that.)

[Bard]

The land is for the benefit of nature first, foremost, and primarily. Mankind is just a squatter. (and an ungrateful one, at that.)

Funny thing, mankind is part of nature too. Unless you hold with that theory that we came here from another planet and miraculously look like evolved apes ;)

Dolphins have culture. Various apes use tools. People are natural. We've just taken changing our environment and using tools to a kind of ludicrous extreme. Having the ability to philosophize and consider consequences, we ought to know better by now.

[Miulang]

Build a big fire, set me on top, then scatter my ashes at sea.
Just for this one nanosecond, Tim, we are in agreement. ;) But I can't criticize other peoples' beliefs; I only know that when I'm dead I don't want to be immortalized by a headstone (anybody wanna buy a cemetery plot on Maui? No, I didn't buy it. My proactive father bought plots for my brother and me many years ago, so technically I could say I own land on Maui! :D ).

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

Build a big fire, set me on top, then scatter my ashes at sea. What does the Bible say about that? What about the Quran?

How bout this?
GET OFF MY LAND !! TRESPASSERS WILL BE EATEN.

Spirituality, Make-Believe, Religion, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. All the same.
Try Reality for a while. Reality is fun. Reality is real. Reality is where the rational mind exists. Cover the bones deeper. Build on.

Spirituality is for half-wit, pretenders with little stomach for the real world.

Sorry to sound so harsh. But that's the balls-truth of it.

Good Grief !?

Reality is what you make of it Tim. I'm sorry yours is so meaningless...Sorry to sound so harsh, but... :rolleyes:

[Leo Lakio]

I accept that Tim's reality is as real as my own, no matter how different or unfamiliar (to me) as it may be. My hope is that he can do the same. Please see "Rashomon" for further reference.

Question for Beaker: do our bones and flesh provide nutrients to the soil after death, or are we too toxic (or generally too sealed-up and embalmed) to be of any use to the planet? At least we are no longer parasitic then.

I don't really care what happens to my corporeal shell after I die; I won't be around to notice. Long ago, I signed away everything: organs, cadaver, whatever - what doesn't directly provide immediate assistance to others still alive is made available for medical research and educational purposes. I've been told they will cremate any remains and dispose of them properly. That suits me.

[manoasurfer123]

I don't really care what happens to my corporeal shell after I die; I won't be around to notice. Long ago, I signed away everything: organs, cadaver, whatever - what doesn't directly provide immediate assistance to others still alive is made available for medical research and educational purposes. I've been told they will cremate any remains and dispose of them properly. That suits me.
Leo - Can I have your brain early?

[Leo Lakio]

Leo - Can I have your brain early?Hell yes - I'm not using it... :D

[manoasurfer123]

Can I have it now then :p

[Leo Lakio]

I lost it somewhere...maybe in another thread, I dunno... :confused: Just call me "boneheaded," to keep this ever-so-slightly on-topic.