Political Correctness - GET OVER IT !!

[timkona]

The Virginia Delegate, Mr. Hargrove, is in hot water for telling blacks to "get over it" regarding slavery. He asks the questions "Should we tell Jews to apologize for killing Christ?"

The PC crowd is all up in arms for his blunt delivery.

People who constantly dwell on the past will always fail in the future. It's what I call the "Crutch Hypothesis". Hawaiians have it. Blacks have it. Jews have it from the Holocaust. Arabs have it from the creation of Israel.

All you people who dwell in the past create failure scenarios for yourselves. Then when your life is a total train wreck, you can blame anybody and everybody, except of course, yourself. What a pathetic way to live.

YOU are responsible for the outcome in YOUR life. GET OVER IT !!!!

[kimo55]

People who constantly dwell on the past will always fail in the future. It's what I call the "Crutch Hypothesis". Hawaiians have it. Blacks have it. Jews have it from the Holocaust. Arabs have it from the creation of Israel.


the holocaust is a little further back in time than the current injustices currently being commited against Hawaiians, in the current time.

[blueyecicle]

I have a feeling this will be the "duck and cover" thread of the day!:eek:

[timkona]

Well thanks Blue. I've never thought to duck and cover, which explains the bruises.

What are the injustices that happen today to Hawaiians?? I thought the only injustice happening to Hawaiians was the constant entitlement being thrown at them in the form of racial preference, which only serves to exacerbate the "Crutch Hypothesis". Reinforcing the notion that Hawaiians are somehow inferior to others is just a terrible way to live a life.

I certainly would not want society to view me as completely unable to compete, and succeed, in the world, merely because of who I am, or who my parents were.

[GeckoGeek]

GET OVER IT! (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/e/eagles/get+over+it_20044468.html)

[kimo55]

GG. that's a kill all the lawyers song. good subject for anodda thread.

[sinjin]

Why do you suppose most WASPs such as yourself are immune?

[timkona]

Ah yesssss......another chili pepper thread by yours truly. You can count on me.

[timkona]

Immune from what? Entitlement?? Failure?? Feeling sorry for myself?? Ignorance?? Polio?? Please clarify Sinjin.

Perhaps it is the thick skin, perhaps the intellect, perhaps blind luck???

[sinjin]

I certainly would not want society to view me as completely unable to compete, and succeed, in the world, merely because of who I am, or who my parents were.What if "society" addressed the fact that you might be at a disadvantage because of who you are and who your parents are/were. Do you at least admit that some are at an advantage because of who they are and who their parents are/were?

[sinjin]

Perhaps it is the thick skin?Not thick but you're getting warm.

[timkona]

What if "society" addressed the fact that you might be at a disadvantage because of who you are and who your parents are/were. Do you at least admit that some are at an advantage because of who they are and who their parents are/were?

Maybe all men are NOT created equal. If we start there, then your post makes sense. What would Jefferson think of that? Any Rockefeller starts with a distinct advantage. That is part of what motivates me the most.

Parents do have a lot to do with it. Perhaps some children do poorly in school because their parents are terribly ignorant. Perhaps some children have low self esteem because their parents have been telling them all their lives that the cards are stacked against them. Sounds like the "Crutch Hypothesis".

[sinjin]

Maybe all men are NOT created equal. If we start there, then your post makes sense. What would Jefferson think of that? Any Rockefeller starts with a distinct advantage. That is part of what motivates me the most.Jefferson never meant all people have equal abilities or potential but that all people have equal humanity.

Parents do have a lot to do with it. Perhaps some children do poorly in school because their parents are terribly ignorant. Perhaps some children have low self esteem because their parents have been telling them all their lives that the cards are stacked against them.Where did those parents get that idea? We probably would've had a black President by now if black parents hadn't misinformed there kids about the card stackage situation. Right?

[timkona]

Oh, Sinjin. Racism is so beneath you.

I'm very lucky to have successful friends of many different colors and nationalities. Funny how I never really notice color. Some of my favorite friends call themselves Hawaiian too. It don't matter to me. I don't know of any of them who were born with a silver spoon either.

The very notion that ANYBODY can be a success is contrary to basic tenets of liberal philosophy. That is why this whole thread makes you so darned uncomfortable. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain OR the person pulling your strings.

[PoiBoy]

You should go tell them "get over it" to their face .....and see where that gets you. But we all know you wouldn't do that. ;)

[timkona]

Well, PoiBoy, since you seem to be new here, I will try to take what you say with a grain of salt. Shoot, you won't even say who you are, while I hide from nobody.

You would find plenty of folks on Hawaii Island who would be able to tell you that I am quite vocal in face to face situations. In fact, the first place you should query would the the ILWU union hall in Hilo. During my Council run, I had many, many face to face situations where I was able to offend somebody terribly by speaking the bluntest of truths to their face. In fact, many of the good folk at HT will tell you that I'm not afraid of the face to face situations. But don't let facts skew your perspective.

[PoiBoy]

We all know the truth tim. We all know. ;)

Good luck.

[sinjin]

Oh, Sinjin. Racism is so beneath you.Not beneath, behind I hope. How about you? Why this need to tell people it's their fault? What do you know about the cards anyone was dealt?

I'm very lucky to have successful friends of many different colors and nationalities. Funny how I never really notice color. Some of my favorite friends call themselves Hawaiian too. It don't matter to me. I don't know of any of them who were born with a silver spoon either.So if one person can succeed anyone can and therefore anyone that doesn't is personally to blame? Horseshite.

The very notion that ANYBODY can be a success is contrary to basic tenets of liberal philosophy. That is why this whole thread makes you so darned uncomfortable. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain OR the person pulling your strings. Uncomfortable? What are blathering about? I'm not a liberal. You just want to label anyone who disagrees with you liberal, ignorant, blah blah. Pathetic. Obviously people succeed Tim. The reasons vary. Sometimes it's luck, sometimes hard work and sometimes because of who their parents are/were. Sometimes those people aren't white. What's your point? It's still better to be white in this country than anything else. Do you disagree? Btw the man behind the curtain is white too.

[timkona]

Why this need to tell people it's their fault?

The notion of personal responsibility is politically incorrect to some.

[sinjin]

The notion of personal responsibility is politically incorrect to some.And accepting the legacy of racism is inconvenient for some.

[1stwahine]

Sometimes it's luck, sometimes hard work and sometimes because of who their parents are/were. Sometimes those people aren't white. What's your point? It's still better to be white in this country than anything else. Do you disagree? Btw the man behind the curtain is white too.

Who says and where does it says it's better to be WHITE in this country? And what man is behind the curtain?:confused:

I have a friend who came to Hawai'i ten years ago with only a suitcase. Can hardly speak or write English even today. She owns 1 apartment, 3 homes and a business. I had lunch with her the other day at her new hale Deep in the mountains of the Pali. A mansion overlooking the City. Breathtaking. She lives the American Dream. She ain't White.:rolleyes:

Auntie Lynn

[sinjin]

Who says and where does it says it's better to be WHITE in this country? And what man is behind the curtain?:confused:

I have a friend who came to Hawai'i ten years ago with only a suitcase. Can hardly speak or write English even today. She owns 1 apartment, 3 homes and a business. I had lunch with her the other day at her new hale Deep in the mountains of the Pali. A mansion overlooking the City. Breathtaking. She lives the American Dream. She ain't White.:rolleyes:

Auntie LynnThat's really swell Auntie. I understand that someone can become wealthy inspite of disadvantages, happens all the time. Can you think of an instance where being white was a disadvantage to succeeding in this country? Using one person's success to blame others for not doing likewise ignores reality.

[Leo Lakio]

Why this need to tell people it's their fault?
The notion of personal responsibility is politically incorrect to some.Unanswered, however, is the question - why do you, Tim, feel it is your (that is to say, Tim's) personal responsibility to point out what you, Tim, consider the flaws of other people?

Maybe, just maybe, other people live lives that do not follow your values and beliefs, for whatever reason. And maybe, just maybe, you aren't right every time.

[LikaNui]

But we all know you wouldn't do that.
and minutes later
We all know the truth tim. We all know.
See, you're still not getting it, PoiBoy. You've only been a member of HT for less than three days, so what's with the "we all know" stuff? Again, you're only hurting your own credibility. Several wise folks have been trying to help you. Listening to them would be a good thing.

[PoiBoy]

Who says and where does it says it's better to be WHITE in this country?
It's not better...but you don't believe in racism and discrimination? :rolleyes:

And what man is behind the curtain?
Maybe the guy who stole hawaii. :confused:

I have a friend who came to Hawai'i ten years ago with only a suitcase. Can hardly speak or write English even today. She owns 1 apartment, 3 homes and a business. I had lunch with her the other day at her new hale Deep in the mountains of the Pali. A mansion overlooking the City. Breathtaking. She lives the American Dream. She ain't White.:rolleyes:

1 in ??????????

Do you have a ratio of those immigrants/minorities who live the "American dream" ....to those who end up in the housing projects?

The system needs the poor .....dont talk about this fallacy "The American Dream". They call it a "dream" for a reason.

[blueyecicle]

I know it is not perfect nor easy in America but compared to some of the deplorable conditions of other countries...simply put...they are thankful even for housing projects.
Does not make it right but it's just true.
My ex came here from Korea at 8. His family started by washing floors at a resteraunt and living in subsidized housing...That was 22 years ago. Now they own 3 homes and a resteraunt and he is a finishing his last residency in a hopistal in Chicago.
He tells me...even living in the poor neighborhoods here and living on foodstamps it was worth it and still better than the corruption and life they had before. He tells me of stories of 10 people in a one room apt. and no silverware and no shoes. No food for 2 days at a time.

He amazes me. He is so grateful and sees America with stars. Even when i point out problems...he says "It doesn't metter! It will get better for every generation...too many people expect perfection NOW...America is spoiled"

Nothing is perfect we all just make due with what we have and try to make changes for our children and their children.

[PoiBoy]

He amazes me. He is so grateful and sees America with stars. Even when i point out problems...he says "It doesn't metter! It will get better for every generation...too many people expect perfection NOW...America is spoiled"

Nothing is perfect we all just make due with what we have and try to make changes for our children and their children.

I agree blueycicle with how "American Poverty" differs from "World Poverty"

The problem is the "crime" thats associated with any poverty. Also alot of other things to factor in like culture clashes and cramped housing.

[Leo Lakio]

Maybe more of us need to keep this in mind:"...too many people expect perfection NOW...America is spoiled"

[PoiBoy]

Originally Posted by blueyecicle
"...too many people expect perfection NOW...America is spoiled"

Maybe more of us need to keep this in mind:

Go to "the hood" in any major city and "try to keep this in mind".

In capitalism....poverty will always exist.

[1stwahine]

Do you have a ratio of those immigrants/minorities who live the "American dream" ....to those who end up in the housing projects?

The system needs the poor .....dont talk about this fallacy "The American Dream". They call it a "dream" for a reason.

No..I don't have statistics. However, many of my neighbors are immigrants/minorities. I fall into the category too of being PUA!

I live Mayor Wright Housing!:D

And yes, I dream ~ "To Dream the Impossible DREAM!"

Love and Aloha

Auntie Lynn:D

[Leo Lakio]

Not sure I understand where the first part of your post was going, but I do agree withIn capitalism....poverty will always exist.In fact, I haven't seen any system where poverty has been completely eliminated. But I do like 2006 Nobel Peace Prize winner Muhammad Yunus' statement that “one day our grandchildren will go to museums to see what poverty was like.”

[sinjin]

No..I don't have statistics. However, many of my neighbors are immigrants/minorities. I fall into the category too of being PUA!

I live Mayor Wright Housing!:D

And yes, I dream ~ "To Dream the Impossible DREAM!"

Love and Aloha

Auntie Lynn:DA question that you need not answer if you no like. How many haoles without a history of substance abuse living in MWH?

[PoiBoy]

I haven't seen any system where poverty has been completely eliminated.
Because you have a western view of poverty. Ever been to Samoa?

But I do like 2006 Nobel Peace Prize winner Muhammad Yunus' statement that “one day our grandchildren will go to museums to see what poverty was like.”
Not with the age of globalization. But I GREATLY admire his work and efforts.

[Leo Lakio]

Because you have a western view of poverty. Ever been to Samoa?No, I haven't. Is there really absolutely NO poverty in Samoa - all people being taken care of? It's basically a single-party government there now (meaning the HRPP, with no real opposition), yes? What about the movement to return to a more traditional fa`asamoa?

[1stwahine]

A question that you need not answer if you no like. How many haoles without a history of substance abuse living in MWH?

hmmmm...we get plenty haoles ~ all get history of substance abuse and one a major alcoholic!:rolleyes: I can't think of not one who has no history what so ever.:eek:

I've been a resident 10 years.

Auntie Lynn

[tikiyaki]

Can you think of an instance where being white was a disadvantage to succeeding in this country?

Yes. Isn't it called "affirmative action" ?

[1stwahine]

Yes. Isn't it called "affirmative action" ?

MAHALO!!!!:D

Auntie Lynn

[joshuatree]

Yes. Isn't it called "affirmative action" ?

Yes but I thought affirmative action is dead in Cali, at least in the UC systems. :)

On one hand, remembering and rectifying past grievances is needed. But on the other, you do have people abusing it. You do see people crying how their ancestors were wronged so they need special attention. But when they get it, they don't make use of it and better themselves, they just start to rely on it. Not everyone does that but let's be honest, there are bad apples that do.

[tikiyaki]

MAHALO!!!!:D

Auntie Lynn

You're welcome.

Or better yet...try being the only white recording artist on a black owned, all black artist record label. Yes, sometimes being white can be a disatvantage. :rolleyes:

[Leo Lakio]

Or better yet...try being the only white recording artist on a black owned, all black artist record label. Yes, sometimes being white can be a disatvantage. :rolleyes:Aw, hell, tikiyaki...being a MUSICIAN is a disadvantage to success!

[PoiBoy]

No, I haven't. Is there really absolutely NO poverty in Samoa - all people being taken care of?
All the people take care of themselves. No one starves. Everyone owns their own land. 1 person working can support a family of 10. They can live off the land if they choose to do so. No seasons and fertile lands allow crops to grow year around. It's laid back island life.

It's basically a single-party government there now (meaning the HRPP, with no real opposition), yes?
No real opposition.

What about the movement to return to a more traditional fa`asamoa?
Fa'a Samoa is in every village and every Samoan. It's a way of life. With politics.. it would be considered "local government". It's where the real power of Samoa is. HRPP can't do anything with samoan land unless given permission by local chiefs.

[PoiBoy]

You're welcome.

Or better yet...try being the only white recording artist on a black owned, all black artist record label. Yes, sometimes being white can be a disatvantage. :rolleyes:

There are more white owned record labels than black owned record labels. :D

[tikiyaki]

Aw, hell, tikiyaki...being a MUSICIAN is a disadvantage to success!

If money is your only measure of success, than that is true, but there are other types of success in the world. ;)

[PoiBoy]

If money is your only measure of success, than that is true, but there are other types of success in the world. ;)

Well then you don't need a record label do you? :D

[tikiyaki]

There are more white owned record labels than black owned record labels. :D

Maybe true, but that doesn't change the original counterpoint I made. Besides, that statistic is changing fast. Check the pop charts and see for yourself.;)

[tikiyaki]

Well then you don't need a record label do you? :D

Not anymore, I don't. :o

[PoiBoy]

Maybe true, but that doesn't change the original counterpoint I made. Besides, that statistic is changing fast. Check the pop charts and see for yourself.;)

Your "counterpoint" was built on twigs. :D


Link up some of your music ...and we will judge to see if you have been discriminated against. :D

[tikiyaki]

Your "counterpoint" was built on twigs. :D


Link up some of your music ...and we will judge to see if you have been discriminated against. :D

Actually, that was just a small personal example. And I was half joking about that. (well, less than half) I will PM you a link.

Either way, Affirmative action is real.

[PoiBoy]

Actually, that was just a small personal example. And I was half joking about that. (well, less than half) I will PM you a link.

Either way, Affirmative action is real.

I was just joking bro. Racism and discrimination exist...on both sides..but it's worse if you are a minority.

[tikiyaki]

I was just joking bro. Racism and discrimination exist...on both sides..but it's worse if you are a minority.

Agreed. :)

[craigwatanabe]

Well it seems Tim has lit the fuse on another hot debate here. Hey where is Tim?

The last time he went on one of these episodes wasn't he a bit sloshed? Hmmmm hitting the bottle this early in the afternoon Tim?

As for PC, Tim has a point somewhere in his postings today. We do need to move forward if we are to truly put the past behind us otherwise we will stay stuck in the same muck that has held us back from achieving greatness.

We can blame society for our ills or we can use that same energy and move forward. Sure we need to ensure we learn from past mistakes but like an ill-concieved plan or action, we need to change course and attitude in order to move on and find our dreams and goals.

One thing nobody can change is progress, even the Hawaiians were victim to this societal evolution. Eventually even Hawaiians would have been compelled to have integrated with the white man here in the 21st century.

Who knows if this adaptation of culture would have been sucessful or not. All we know is the past. Maybe getting over it isn't the best solution but moving forward is a step in the right direction of healing the past.

We talk of being non-discriminatory by virtue of race, color, sex whatever...yet when we are discriminated we use those cards like aces up our sleeves to demand retribution.

When I was in the USAF, my Mexican supervisor told me I'd never get promoted as long as he was my boss. He hated Japanese. Not only did I get promoted, but I ended up taking his job! I used the same tools granted him to move myself forward. I tell my kids if you want to move ahead in a world of discrimination, beat your adversary at their own game by using their own rules, then change the rules to level the playing field once you're in that seat of power.

[1stwahine]

That's really swell Auntie. I understand that someone can become wealthy inspite of disadvantages, happens all the time. Can you think of an instance where being white was a disadvantage to succeeding in this country? Using one person's success to blame others for not doing likewise ignores reality.

I'm not going to get into a debate of white vs black vs brown vs yellow!

What I was getting at is every person has the same opportunity to achieve success and power! It takes hard work and drive within one's self.

Auntie Lynn

[PoiBoy]

No one really took this seriously because he was trying to bait. Poor guy can't see past the little one dimensional world he lives in.

[timkona]

Went to the beach. Short school day you know. Ocean was flat. Good swimming.

Auntie nailed it - Every person has the same opportunity to achieve success.

But the problem is that notion is contrary to the entitlement mentality which pervades the minds of some people. Notably some in this thread.

And not to highlight cognitive dissonance, but would a white person in Hawaii be considered a minority? What say you PoiBoy? If you are in college, you would do well to take a course in critical thinking/logic.

I've always thought it was very easy to make a good living over here. You should try the SF Bay Area or Los Angeles if you think you are ready for the big leagues of a competitive business environment, where a lot of the players have some form of alphabet soup as an attachment to their names.

Fun stuff.

[Miulang]

Is it the water or what in Virginia? Many of the Republicans in the Commonwealth seem to have a racist/religious bent to them. Besides the esteemed Mr. Hargrove, the Commonwealth of VA also produced Congressman Virgil Goode who hoisted the red flag about the new Muslim Congressman from MN (Keith Ellison) and how "if you let one of "them" in, before you know it, they'll be overrunning the halls of Congress!":rolleyes:

Rep. Goode said it was "unAmerican" for Rep. Ellison to place his hand on the Quran during his photo-op "swearing in" ceremony (not a legal ceremony) a couple of weeks ago. But Rep. Ellison turned the tables on Rep. Goode by borrowing a Quran belonging to none other than President Andrew Jackson. Since then, not a peep out of Rep. Goode.

Miulang

[beaker]

What if "society" addressed the fact that you might be at a disadvantage because of who you are and who your parents are/were. Do you at least admit that some are at an advantage because of who they are and who their parents are/were?

That's the way life is. Oh well.

[beaker]

People who constantly dwell on the past will always fail in the future.

Very true. Victim mentality leads to victimhood.

[PoiBoy]

No need to study history then. :D Every time you girlfriend cheats on you....just think to yourself "don't dwell on the past".."Victim mentality leads to victimhood"....then forgive her and get married. :D

[GeckoGeek]

In capitalism....poverty will always exist.

But what IS poverty? We talk about it, but how is it defined? (And who gets to define it?) I think you'll find that it's a moving target. Partly because what used to be considered a luxury is now considered an necessity. (How many people living "in poverty" in America have a TV and a phone?) Then again, there are probably those who define poverty as a means to insure a political taking point. I'm sure there are some who could find poverty in the biblical city of Enoch.

[GeckoGeek]

All the people take care of themselves. No one starves. Everyone owns their own land. 1 person working can support a family of 10. They can live off the land if they choose to do so. No seasons and fertile lands allow crops to grow year around. It's laid back island life.

Does that define "no poverty" or is it because they define an acceptable lifestyle to not necessarily include cable TV, a microwave, cell phone for every person, etc, etc.

[cynsaligia]

Rep. Goode said it was "unAmerican" for Rep. Ellison to place his hand on the Quran during his photo-op "swearing in" ceremony (not a legal ceremony) a couple of weeks ago. But Rep. Ellison turned the tables on Rep. Goode by borrowing a Quran belonging to none other than President Andrew Jackson. Since then, not a peep out of Rep. Goode.

Miulang


ha! i LOVE it!

No need to study history then. :D Every time you girlfriend cheats on you....just think to yourself "don't dwell on the past".."Victim mentality leads to victimhood"....then forgive her and get married. :D

no, no, no, no, dear. you have it all wrong.

when your gf cheats on you, you drink to excess, sleep around to excess, then forgive your gf. when she thinks she's got you back, you then sober up, break up fantastically with your gf, and take some time to date around (versus merely sleep around, but dating around allows for sex, too).

last step? get married to someone else.

[SouthKona]

[deleted, dup posting]

[SouthKona]

when your gf cheats on you, you drink to excess, sleep around to excess, then forgive your gf. when she thinks she's got you back, you then sober up, break up fantastically with your gf, and take some time to date around (versus merely sleep around, but dating around allows for sex, too).last step? get married to someone else.
I guess you could call that a plan, but who'd want to marry you after that??

[1stwahine]

But what IS poverty? We talk about it, but how is it defined? (And who gets to define it?) I think you'll find that it's a moving target. Partly because what used to be considered a luxury is now considered an necessity. (How many people living "in poverty" in America have a TV and a phone?) Then again, there are probably those who define poverty as a means to insure a political taking point. I'm sure there are some who could find poverty in the biblical city of Enoch.

Bravo! I like your Post ~ makes a whole lot a sense!:D

Auntie Lynn

[cynsaligia]

I guess you could call that a plan, but who'd want to marry you after that??

i hope you don't believe the majority of people marry without a bit of rounding the block, esp with couples marrying at an older age than in generations past.

you know, the analogy does extend to world history. just look at england, france, and the US. now THERE's a lot of cheating, breaking up, forgiving, cheating, and breaking up again!

[GeckoGeek]

OK, now that I've gotten to the bottom of this thread, I need to say a few things that really chap me on this whole subject.

First of all, I don't think this is a race issue. It's a cultural issue. Everybody seems to hold some strange belief that everyone's skin color is only their skin color and inside everyone is exactly the same. The fact we see an uneven distribution of wealth among people of different colors must be evidence of some kind of flaw in society.

Not necessarily true.

The first mistake is to use a single measuring stick of success: money. Sure, everyone would like to have more of it, but if you look around, you'll find that not everyone is willing to do the same thing to get it. Different cultures have different definitions of success. Some value education and respect their teachers. Others belittle them. Some value hard work. Others value family and building good relationships. Some have a history of teaching the value of sacrificing for a long term gain. Others value the moment. Some value "giving the best" to their kids, and others drive them to learn the value of work. And many of these attitudes are tied to or shaped by one's culture. And as anyone with the most tenuous grasp of statistics can tell you, there's a strong tie between skin color and culture.

The fact is, maybe we should fear the "utopia" that everyone seems to seek. For the only way that all races will come out the same economically is if all traces of culture are stamped out and all that is left is skin color, taste in clothing, and music.

Perhaps one of the greatest acts of discrimination is to slap the white man's measuring stick on all the other races.

[anapuni808]

OK, now that I've gotten to the bottom of this thread, I need to say a few things that really chap me on this whole subject.

First of all, I don't think this is a race issue. It's a cultural issue. Everybody seems to hold some strange belief that everyone's skin color is only their skin color and inside everyone is exactly the same. The fact we see an uneven distribution of wealth among people of different colors must be evidence of some kind of flaw in society.

Not necessarily true.

The first mistake is to use a single measuring stick of success: money. Sure, everyone would like to have more of it, but if you look around, you'll find that not everyone is willing to do the same thing to get it. Different cultures have different definitions of success. Some value education and respect their teachers. Others belittle them. Some value hard work. Others value family and building good relationships. Some have a history of teaching the value of sacrificing for a long term gain. Others value the moment. Some value "giving the best" to their kids, and others drive them to learn the value of work. And many of these attitudes are tied to or shaped by one's culture. And as anyone with the most tenuous grasp of statistics can tell you, there's a strong tie between skin color and culture.

The fact is, maybe we should fear the "utopia" that everyone seems to seek. For the only way that all races will come out the same economically is if all traces of culture are stamped out and all that is left is skin color, taste in clothing, and music.

Perhaps one of the greatest acts of discrimination is to slap the white man's measuring stick on all the other races.


yea - finally, it seems like someone "gets it".

[SouthKona]

i hope you don't believe the majority of people marry without a bit of rounding the block, esp with couples marrying at an older age than in generations past.

you know, the analogy does extend to world history. just look at england, france, and the US. now THERE's a lot of cheating, breaking up, forgiving, cheating, and breaking up again!
I'm quite sure you instructed, "you drink to excess, sleep around to excess", and finally "take some time to date around (versus merely sleep around, but dating around allows for sex, too)." I stand by my premise that such a lifestyle would not make you much of a catch. (Well, perhaps you'd be an opportunity to catch STDs or the such....)

[MadAzza]

Rep. Goode said it was "unAmerican" for Rep. Ellison to place his hand on the Quran during his photo-op "swearing in" ceremony (not a legal ceremony) a couple of weeks ago. But Rep. Ellison turned the tables on Rep. Goode by borrowing a Quran belonging to none other than President Andrew Jackson. Since then, not a peep out of Rep. Goode.


Small but important (to me) correction: The Quran was Jefferson's, not Jackson's.

[1stwahine]

Small but important (to me) correction: The Quran was Jefferson's, not Jackson's.

Wow! Das a BiG Correction!:p

Auntie Lynn:D

[sinjin]

Can you think of an instance where being white was a disadvantage to succeeding in this country?

Yes. Isn't it called "affirmative action" ?If that were true one might expect that by removing affirmative action consideratiions from the UC admissions system that white students would fill the slots no longer held for students of color. What has actually happened is that those slots have been filled primarily by Asian Americans.

[tikiyaki]

If that were true one might expect that by removing affirmative action consideratiions from the UC admissions system that white students would fill the slots no longer held for students of color. What has actually happened is that those slots have been filled primarily by Asian Americans.

Well, yea, Asian Americans are also considered "minorities", no ? So, maybe Affirmative action is still in place, not just for black people, but any person considered a "minority", be it Asian, hispanic, whatever...non caucasian people. You think it just Affirmative Action just applies to Black people ?

[sinjin]

Well, yea, Asian Americans are also considered "minorities", no ? So, maybe Affirmative action is still in place, not just for black people, but any person considered a "minority", be it Asian, hispanic, whatever...non caucasian people. You think it just Affirmative Action just applies to Black people ?In California it generally applies to Black and Latino students. I believe Asian American students receive no affirmative action consideration as they are overrepresented relative to their numbers in the general population.

[timkona]

In "The Bell Curve", the author proves, via copious statistics and test scores, that Asians are generally the smartest students.

His book was discredited as junk science by various liberal pundits and reviewers.

[joshuatree]

In California it generally applies to Black and Latino students. I believe Asian American students receive no affirmative action consideration as they are overrepresented relative to their numbers in the general population.

Nope, don't believe affirmative action applied to Asian Americans in the UC system which is why once it was removed, their enrollment numbers went up.

It has nothing to do with Asian Americans being smarter, it's just that in their cultures, education is highly valued so they pursue it with vigor.

[sinjin]

In "The Bell Curve", the author proves, via copious statistics and test scores, that Asians are generally the smartest students.

His book was discredited as junk science by various liberal pundits and reviewers.Look here's one now:
http://www.slate.com/id/2416/

[timkona]

it's just that in their cultures, education is highly valued so they pursue it with vigor.

So would you say that in a culture where education is NOT highly valued, that the students do not perform as well??

Conversely, would it be fair to say that the students performing at the lowest levels come from cultures that do NOT value education??

Seems to me there is an explanation somewhere in that logic for why certain segments of our society do not perform up to par in school.

The truth hurts most when it comes from a mirror. That is what the story of Snow White was all about.

Oooooohhhhhh.......logic is so fun.

[sinjin]

Oh look, here's another:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-bellcurvescience.htm

[sinjin]

So would you say that in a culture where education is NOT highly valued, that the students do not perform as well?Now how do we change that culture assuming we should? To break the cycle we will have to give "extra" attention to those students. Or we could just blame them and tell them it's their fault. Especially effective if one in a thousand actually do rise above without additional assistance.

[timkona]

Extra attention to the students or their parents?? Culture comes from Grandma and Grandpa, and can seldom be "legislated", without being construed as racist. A culture of "education" can only be fostered in the home.

Liberals have a vested interest in discrediting such work due to the platform of entitlement that is the bedrock of their philosophy. I think the book was junk science, and review links you just gave are junk too. But I must say that I thouroughly enjoyed reading it.

This is major thread drift, but fun none the less.

[PoiBoy]

But what IS poverty? We talk about it, but how is it defined? (And who gets to define it?) I think you'll find that it's a moving target. Partly because what used to be considered a luxury is now considered an necessity. (How many people living "in poverty" in America have a TV and a phone?) Then again, there are probably those who define poverty as a means to insure a political taking point. I'm sure there are some who could find poverty in the biblical city of Enoch.

I already half answered. :D

Originally Posted by PoiBoy
"Because you have a western view of poverty."

Originally Posted by PoiBoy
"I agree blueycicle with how "American Poverty" differs from "World Poverty"

The problem is the "crime" thats associated with any poverty. Also alot of other things to factor in like culture clashes and cramped housing."
-----

[Leo Lakio]

Extra attention to the students or their parents??To the minds that are more likely to adapt to change, which suggests the former over the latter; though, the effect of attitudes in a student's home life that contradict those of school life can't be ignored. I understand that's an area where you have a passion, Tim, is it not?

[timkona]

Most certainly Leo. Which is why I read to the keiki just this morning. And why I purchase entry level readers at the used book store and then give them to my kids' teacher. Along with balls, and hand washing soap, and paper towels, and a whole bunch of other shit that the DOE just can't seem to afford.

[SouthKona]

And why I purchase entry level readers at the used book store and then give them to my kids' teacher. Along with balls, and hand washing soap, and paper towels, and a whole bunch of other shit that the DOE just can't seem to afford.
Yeah, that is amazing isn't it? One time we offered to fundraise and then buy the restroom supplies. Out of shame, I think, the admin came up with the money themselves. Plus, most likely they did not want to advertise the fact that the restrooms were without soap and papertowels!!

[sinjin]

Most certainly Leo. Which is why I read to the keiki just this morning. And why I purchase entry level readers at the used book store and then give them to my kids' teacher.Tim, if you truly believe that, "A culture of 'education' can only be fostered in the home", why do you bother? For whatever reason I salute you.:cool:

[timkona]

Point taken, Sinjin. But I gotta beat my head into the wall, even if it's for a futile cause. I can't sit back and do nothing. I just can't.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

But I gotta beat my head into the wall, even if it's for a futile cause. I can't sit back and do nothing. I just can't.

And you are no different than the typical, committed liberal. It is far easier (and arguably shrewder in many cases) to shut one's doors/borders and just concentrate on their own kids/kind/ilk. But remember:
People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered.
Love them anyway.

If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.

If you are successful, you will win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.

The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.

The biggest men and women with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest men and women with the smallest minds.
Think big anyway.

People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs.
Fight for a few underdogs anyway.

What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.

People really need help but may attack you if you do help them.
Help people anyway.

Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you have anyway.

© Copyright Kent M. Keith 1968, renewed 2001

[tikiyaki]

And you are no different than the typical, committed liberal. It is far easier (and arguably shrewder in many cases) to shut one's doors/borders and just concentrate on their own kids/kind/ilk. But remember:
People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered.
Love them anyway.

If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.

If you are successful, you will win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.

The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.

The biggest men and women with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest men and women with the smallest minds.
Think big anyway.

People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs.
Fight for a few underdogs anyway.

What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.

People really need help but may attack you if you do help them.
Help people anyway.

Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you have anyway.

© Copyright Kent M. Keith 1968, renewed 2001

Wow pua'i...great passage. That's worthy of printing and hanging on the wall. Tim Kona..."big ups" to you for going above and beyond for your kid and her school. That's being proactive.

[joshuatree]

it's just that in their cultures, education is highly valued so they pursue it with vigor.

So would you say that in a culture where education is NOT highly valued, that the students do not perform as well??

Conversely, would it be fair to say that the students performing at the lowest levels come from cultures that do NOT value education??

Seems to me there is an explanation somewhere in that logic for why certain segments of our society do not perform up to par in school.

The truth hurts most when it comes from a mirror. That is what the story of Snow White was all about.

Oooooohhhhhh.......logic is so fun.

Yes, culture A that does not value education as highly as culture B will most likely not turn out as many students that perform as well. This has nothing to do with the potential of each culture or each person. It's just plain simple logic that if you focus and work on something, you tend to be better. Practice makes perfect as they say. A good example is that in most Asian cultures, sports is not emphasized so you tend to see a much smaller number of Asian professional athletes.

Problem is, some people argue that not all cultures have the same values and this is very true. However, given that the world is becoming more homogenus, more global, certain values become the defacto standard. Unless if a particular culture chooses to go into isolation, these defacto values can't be ignored if one culture wishes to remain successful in the modern world.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Now might be the time to cross-reference this thread with the "HT book circle" thread, for I nominate The World Is Flat (http://www.amazon.com/World-Flat-Updated-Expanded-Twenty-first/dp/0374292795/sr=8-1/qid=1169173268/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0138841-2792151?ie=UTF8&s=books).

[PoiBoy]

edited......

[tikiyaki]

Yes, culture A that does not value education as highly as culture B will most likely not turn out as many students that perform as well. This has nothing to do with the potential of each culture or each person. It's just plain simple logic that if you focus and work on something, you tend to be better. Practice makes perfect as they say. A good example is that in most Asian cultures, sports is not emphasized so you tend to see a much smaller number of Asian professional athletes.


This probably has alot to do with genetics. Asian kids are typically smaller than other cultures. My kid goes to a 95% Chinese High School, and tells me that their football team is horrible, cos it's so many little, skinny Chinese kids. She says they get their ass kicked on a regular basis by the teams with more black kids on it. Why? simple genetics. Alot of the black kids are just way bigger and stronger. Of course there are exceptions, but this is usualy the case.

She also told me that the parents of these kids make their kids go to after school-school. They really instill the importance education in their kids.
These kids are all about calculus, and science...tomorrow's doctor's.

It's the parents that instill this drive. The kids just grow up with it, and it's all they know.

[joshuatree]

This probably has alot to do with genetics. Asian kids are typically smaller than other cultures. My kid goes to a 95% Chinese High School, and tells me that their football team is horrible, cos it's so many little, skinny Chinese kids. She says they get their ass kicked on a regular basis by the teams with more black kids on it. Why? simple genetics. Alot of the black kids are just way bigger and stronger. Of course there are exceptions, but this is usualy the case.

She also told me that the parents of these kids make their kids go to after school-school. They really instill the importance education in their kids.
These kids are all about calculus, and science...tomorrow's doctor's.

It's the parents that instill this drive. The kids just grow up with it, and it's all they know.

In regards to sports, I am not so sure about the argument of genetics. True, you see a lot of smaller Chinese people in America. But that's also because the bulk of Chinese immigrants came from Southern China and they are usually smaller on average in stature. However, they alone do not represent all Chinese. Northern Chinese tend to be the same stature as your average Caucasian. But Northern Chinese have tend not to be immigrants to other countries. Only in recent years has that changed. Just like the comparison to Blacks. Sure, most tend to be of bigger stature but you need to go further back. Since most Black Americans are of slave decent, I'm pretty sure the slave owners of the day selected bigger Blacks as slaves since they would do better in the fields. If you look at Africans from Africa, there are many of small stature as well.

Also, what sports are you using for comparison? If it's just football, isn't that a bit biased? What about golf? Swimming? What about gymnastics? Seems the smaller the better in that sport, no?

[PoiBoy]

West africa are were you find the explosive athletes. East Africa is where you find the endurance athletes.
Lot's of Nigerians in the NFL. Muscular, athletic, and explosive.

Anyone what to bring up Samoans? :D
"it has been estimated that a Samoan male (either an American Samoan, or a Samoan living in the 50 United States) is 40 times more likely to play in the NFL than a non-Samoan American."

http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2002/0527/1387626.html

"American Samoa, however, is the true and seemingly unlikeliest of football factories. It is to the NFL what the Dominican Republic is to Major League Baseball. With a population of less than 65,000, it is roughly equivalent in size to Carlsbad, Calif., Schenectady, N.Y., Danbury, Conn., or Hunt, Texas.

There are about 500,000 Samoans in the world and more than 200 play Division I football. A Samoan boy, according to estimates, is 40 times more likely to make it to the NFL than a boy from the mainland."

Lots of top colleges go to American Samoa to recruit.

[PoiBoy]

You guys should see china's olympic program. It starts from birth. :D
You think i'm joking but i'm not.

[Leo Lakio]

Anyone what to bring up Samoans? :D
"it has been estimated that a Samoan male (either an American Samoan, or a Samoan living in the 50 United States) is 40 times more likely to play in the NFL than a non-Samoan American."Seattle loves the Tuiasosopos: Marques, Zach & Matt. The first two played football at UW, while Matt went to baseball, joining the Mariners. Oh, and sister Leslie coaches volleyball at UW.

[joshuatree]

West africa are were you find the explosive athletes. East Africa is where you find the endurance athletes.
Lot's of Nigerians in the NFL. Muscular, athletic, and explosive.

Anyone what to bring up Samoans? :D
"it has been estimated that a Samoan male (either an American Samoan, or a Samoan living in the 50 United States) is 40 times more likely to play in the NFL than a non-Samoan American."

http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2002/0527/1387626.html

"American Samoa, however, is the true and seemingly unlikeliest of football factories. It is to the NFL what the Dominican Republic is to Major League Baseball. With a population of less than 65,000, it is roughly equivalent in size to Carlsbad, Calif., Schenectady, N.Y., Danbury, Conn., or Hunt, Texas.

There are about 500,000 Samoans in the world and more than 200 play Division I football. A Samoan boy, according to estimates, is 40 times more likely to make it to the NFL than a boy from the mainland."

Lots of top colleges go to American Samoa to recruit.

As I understand, American football is the big sport for American Samoa whereas Rugby is the deal for Samoa (Western Samoa).

[PoiBoy]

As I understand, American football is the big sport for American Samoa whereas Rugby is the deal for Samoa (Western Samoa).

It really has nothing to do with the sport. It's the genetics. Those genetics can excell in any explosive sport.

[joshuatree]

It really has nothing to do with the sport. It's the genetics. Those genetics can excell in any explosive sport.

Ok......if is has nothing to do with the sport, will you say Samoans will excel in gymnastics? What about cheerleading? Or is the key in your statement "explosive"?

[PoiBoy]

I can tell you're not an athlete bro. "explosive sport"<-----repeat for you

You need to accept the fact that some races are more "genetically inclined" to excell in some sports.

There are different types of athletes. Some sports are more endurance..some strength..some speed...some are more skill...etc

[joshuatree]

I can tell you're not an athlete bro. "explosive sport"<-----repeat for you

You need to accept the fact that some races are more "genetically inclined" to excell in some sports.

There are different types of athletes.


I can tell you're the stereotypical jock bro. And did you not see my last statement? Or is the key in your statement "explosive"? I already anticipated your perception.

You need to accept the fact that some sports favor certain physical features, it's not that some races are more "genetically inclined" to excel in some sports.

Physical environments will create races that are more "genetically inclined" to that environment. Not sports. If the rules for football were to be changed so that all players need to wear high heel shoes on the field, wanna bet the big, tough guys will have a hard time playing well?

If you think gymnastics or modern day cheerleading is a joke, maybe you should try a backflip or two and get back to me.

[PoiBoy]

I can tell you're the stereotypical jock bro. And did you not see my last statement? Or is the key in your statement "explosive"? I already anticipated your perception.
I shouldn't have to repeat myself. I said "explosive sports"

You need to accept the fact that some sports favor certain physical features, it's not that some races are more "genetically inclined" to excel in some sports.
:confused:
physical features=genetics :D

Physical environments will create races that are more "genetically inclined" to that environment. Not sports. If the rules for football were to be changed so that all players need to wear high heel shoes on the field, wanna bet the big, tough guys will have a hard time playing well?
duh!

If you think gymnastics or modern day cheerleading is a joke, maybe you should try a backflip or two and get back to me.
I never said it was a joke. wtf? We know there are different types of athletes.


It's all good bro...maybe just a misunderstanding on your part.

[joshuatree]

Hey PB, thanks for the good laugh, it's always someone else's misunderstanding. It's all good. :D

Yes, physical features = genetics. But that wasn't the argument. The argument is that you say some races are more genetically inclined to some "explosive" sports. I say some sports favor certain physical features. They sound the same but they are not the same. One is putting the cart in front of the horse and the other puts the horse in front of the cart.

My example of changing the rules in football so that players are required to wear high heel shoes makes that point. Since you agree if all the big football players can't play well with high heels, can you still say some races are more genetically inclined to some sports? With high heels, maybe that skinny, light-weight guy (different physical features) will run circles against the heavy set guys struggling with the heels? Does your statement then hold water? So with the current football rules in place, football favors certain physical features like heavy set. But if the rules change....then possibly no.

I never needed you to repeat "explosive sports". I just find that to be so vague and arbitrary. Rifle sports I consider as "explosive" since you've got gunpowder igniting and explosive combustion propelling a bullet. But would you consider that an "explosive sport"? How would the big tough guy have an advantage vs the scrawny little guy in that competition? You can repeat the words "explosive sport" all you want but without a definition, it's up to anyone's interpretation. And because it's up to interpretation, I interpret your view of other sports such as gymnastics or cheerleading as a joke because somehow, I don't think you would consider them as "explosive sports". Maybe if you define "explosive sports", then there would be less confusion?

[timkona]

This thread has been just terrific. Drifting all over, like a 85 RX-7 with a Turbo and NOS.

What fun it is to throw political correctness out the window and just talk as if we aren't being judged.

[Leo Lakio]

just talk as if we aren't being judged.Aw, man! Judge Tim is back in the room! Why wasn't somebody watching the door, to warn us? Now, we're gonna get it...grumblemumblepout...:p

[Pua'i Mana'o]

This thread has been just terrific. Drifting all over, like a 85 RX-7 with a Turbo and NOS.

What fun it is to throw political correctness out the window and just talk as if we aren't being judged.

Cripes, Tim, what do you want others to say? I for one have been 'round this bull's ass with you many, many times. Go track your posting history and see the significant % of your posts/threads dedicated to griping about the past, the irony of course being that you are just as stuck as anyone else about the past. And while you are at it, take a critical and objective look at your posting style. Notice the trend of make a point-->spend three more sentences streaming in consciousness-->end it with a brief crack aimed at insulting/disgust with some group (socio, economic, Hawaiians, disaffected parents, politicians, libs, NO-mbies). You're writing on a template: nouns change, but its all plug-n-play with you. How do expect people to respond? You cannot change another mind if you are unwilling to open your own.

I invite you to break out of that mold, and write at least 500 words dissecting the hell out of ~whatever~ and I promise somebody around here will go toe-to-toe with you on each point. The onus upon you being that you must make several distinct, separate points.

Smooches, Tim. For real.

[PoiBoy]

I couldn't help but laugh at the title of thread. :D Poor guy just couldn't see it.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

In "The Bell Curve", the author proves, via copious statistics and test scores, that Asians are generally the smartest students.

His book was discredited as junk science by various liberal pundits and reviewers.

Smartest or most studious? And what "tests" are we talking about? I know, but I'm interested in you saying exactly which ones so I can concentrate the answer as opposed to issuing broad, sweeping explanations.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

I can tell you're not an athlete bro. "explosive sport"<-----repeat for you

You need to accept the fact that some races are more "genetically inclined" to excell in some sports.

There are different types of athletes. Some sports are more endurance..some strength..some speed...some are more skill...etc

False statement. The ability to excell in certain sports has nothing to do with racial genetics but in fact has to do with the environment and culture you are raised in. Take a Caucasian or an Asian and introduce him to an East African culture and his body will adapt away from that, even if it is slightly, of his parents in accordance with Allen's Rule. Trust me, I've had the pleasure of being lectured by one of the foremost minds in the field of Human Biological Variation and the impact it has on sports (he actually was just awarded this past year with the highest medal available in that field of study, the name of which escapes me at the current juncture). :)

[PoiBoy]

The ability to excell in certain sports has nothing to do with racial genetics but in fact has to do with the environment and culture you are raised
LOL. You're half right and whole wrong. How can you say "racial genetics" has "nothing" to do with the ability to excell in sports. :confused: LOL

Have you seen the NFL, NBA, Track and field?

Yes, environment and culture do play a role. But do we really need to get into an "evolution" debate? I thought that was already a given. ;)
I'm talking "real time".


Take a Caucasian or an Asian and introduce him to an East African culture and his body will adapt away from that, even if it is slightly, of his parents in accordance with Allen's Rule.
slightly? DUH! But it isn't going to turn him into an east African genetically.

Example:
No small statured Chinese growing up in Samoa is going to turn into a 6'3 250lbs Samoan. Lets say he plays "pick up rugby". His body will change "slightly" due to the level on competition. But he will never be on the level of the Samoan competitors.

Accept the fact that some races are more "genetically inclined" to excell in some sports. GET OVER IT!
Call it evolution..or "envirnoment and culture"...just "get over it".

Keep your head in the books bro. ;)

[Whitepoint3rchum]

LOL. You're half right and whole wrong. How can you say "racial genetics" has "nothing" to do with the ability to excell in sports. :confused: LOL

Have you seen the NFL, NBA, Track and field?

Yes, environment and culture do play a role. But do we really need to get into an "evolution" debate? I thought that was already a given.
I'm talking "real time".



slightly? DUH! But it isn't going to turn him into an east African genetically.

Example:
No small statured Chinese growing up in Samoa is going to turn into a 6'3 250lbs Samoan. Lets say he plays "pick up rugby". His body will change "slightly" due to the level on competition. But he will never be on the level of the Samoan competitors.

Accept the fact that some races are more "genetically inclined" to excell in some sports. GET OVER IT!
Call it evolution..or "envirnoment and culture"...just "get over it".

Keep your head in the books bro.


Nice. Completely misunderstood. You can keep thinking that crap if you want to but your belief is completely unfounded and unsupported by science. Studies on human biology have largely yielded the same results and no trait that increases a proclivity to excell in a certain arena for a certain race exists. That's why we're all the same species and not subspecies or multiple separate species. The fact that you are making reference to the so called dominance of certain "races" (black) in certain sports has barely anything to do with the racial genetics. It has to do with the families specific genetics which vary within a race upwards of 80% (and less than 10% between these "races"), environment, etc. Talking about a guy adapting to a specific sport like the Asian rugby player is totally laughable as my original post was lost on you. :D

BTW, How much does Hooked on Phonics sell for these days? Don't worry man, I'll spot you the greenbacks so you can eventually read a book. ;)

EDIT: Hey man just read the snippit in your post on evolution, and yes that solidifies the fact that you either didn't read my post or didn't understand it. Allen's rule comes into effect in this so-called "real time". Check out the experiments done with children of different races raised in nonnative environments.

[LikaNui]

No small statured Chinese growing up in Samoa is going to turn into a 6'3 250lbs Samoan. Lets say he plays "pick up rugby". His body will change "slightly" Well of course it will! Your "small statured Chinese" will be flattened like a pancake by the big Samoan rugby player! That'll change the Chinese body more than just "slightly". :p
And 6'3", 250 lbs.? That's a small Samoan. 6'3" is gonna be closer to 300 lbs.
(And by the way, PoiBoy -- you're well on your way to setting new posting records here. Just 4 days as a member and you're well over 100 posts. Congratulations. I think.)

[PoiBoy]

I'll repeat it for you again
But do we really need to get into an "evolution" debate? I thought that was already a given.
I'm talking "real time"

sheesh. You're a smart one eh?

We don't need to dissect everything down to it's simpliest form. We can go on and on and say that there is no such thing as races..and blah blah blah..BREAKING NEWS. Waste of time.

The NBA, NFL, and track and field are dominated by a "particular people". "GET OVER IT."

[craigwatanabe]

LOL. You're half right and whole wrong. How can you say "racial genetics" has "nothing" to do with the ability to excell in sports. LOL

Have you seen the NFL, NBA, Track and field?

Yes, environment and culture do play a role. But do we really need to get into an "evolution" debate? I thought that was already a given. ;)
I'm talking "real time".



slightly? DUH! But it isn't going to turn him into an east African genetically.

Example:
No small statured Chinese growing up in Samoa is going to turn into a 6'3 250lbs Samoan. Lets say he plays "pick up rugby". His body will change "slightly" due to the level on competition. But he will never be on the level of the Samoan competitors.

Accept the fact that some races are more "genetically inclined" to excell in some sports. GET OVER IT!
Call it evolution..or "envirnoment and culture"...just "get over it".

Keep your head in the books bro. ;)

To add to that: Have you seen the movie "White men can't Jump":)

I think some races can be better in some sports than others and dancing for that matter.

[PoiBoy]

(And by the way, PoiBoy -- you're well on your way to setting new posting records here. Just 4 days as a member and you're well over 100 posts. Congratulations. I think.)

Injuries keep me at the computer.:D -Now i'm never going to post again. :D

craigwatanabe -what? no no no :D

[Whitepoint3rchum]

I'll repeat it for you again


sheesh. You're a smart one eh?

We don't need to dissect everything down to it's simpliest form. We can go on and on and say that there is no such thing as races..and blah blah blah..BREAKING NEWS. Waste of time.

The NBA, NFL, and track and field are dominated by a "particular people". "GET OVER IT."


You lay citizen types crack me up. Yes, argue a field you have no knowledge of. I don 't even know what this 'tard post is saying. I said my assertion happens in real time, i.e. your born move to Africa, develop longer limbs by the time ur a teenager than u would elsewhere and run a lot. You go to the Olympics and smoke everyone. Who's this "white lightning" who runs like a black man now? We must have a genetic anomaly. NOT!! There, I can't make the English any easier to understand for you my slow friend.

And again, stop acting like any of this is slightly debatable. I'll take you to school (but since you haven't been, that was metaphorical) on any of these topics. You realize this "all black men are good athletes but can't swim" is bollocks. I realize that yes, you're just a normal person; burger flipper perhaps. I know this blows your mind, but don't be sad. You're in good company - after all 50% of Americans ( a group you belong to) are classified as feebly minded.

Now just relax my mashed taro HT patron, and enjoy the threads (and stop spamming)

[Whitepoint3rchum]

The above post was not an attack on the general public, just the ones that think they are veritable experts.

And if you aren't part of that 50% and recognize the blaring error of the above post, keep it to yourself. ;)

BTW, I'm not a stickler for PC. In fact, I find it irritating; it's just that you have to get your facts straight if you plan to be taken seriously.

[Leo Lakio]

I think some races can be better in some sports than others and dancing for that matter.I think I'm a mediocre hula dancer (at best) - but it ain't because I'm white...:D

[joshuatree]

I'll repeat it for you again


sheesh. You're a smart one eh?

We don't need to dissect everything down to it's simpliest form. We can go on and on and say that there is no such thing as races..and blah blah blah..BREAKING NEWS. Waste of time.

The NBA, NFL, and track and field are dominated by a "particular people". "GET OVER IT."

PB, totally dig your desire to debate about issues in the forums. But why do you consistently answer with vague answers? Can't you just openly say who you regard as a "particular people"? Can we just stop with the quoted phrases?

I really don't think the NBA is dominated these days. It was all white back in the day, then obviously it became mostly black. But these days, you are seeing more and more of all backgrounds being in there. Btw, NBA is working hard to crack the Chinese market, so are you going to say NBA is dominated by certain races when you will perhaps see more and more Chinese players?

NFL - you got plenty of white quarterbacks and black receivers. So is there domination there? And you also present the fact that there are a few Samoan players too.

Track and field - Let's see, 2004 Olympics has a Chinese guy win the 110 m hurdles. An Italian won the marathon with a Brazilian with bronze. A Moroccan won the 5000m and 1500m. A Japanese won the Hammer throw.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

The ability to excell in certain sports has nothing to do with racial genetics but in fact has to do with the environment and culture you are raised in. Take a Caucasian or an Asian and introduce him to an East African culture and his body will adapt away from that, even if it is slightly, of his parents in accordance with Allen's Rule.

Studies on human biology have largely yielded the same results and no trait that increases a proclivity to excell in a certain arena for a certain race exists. That's why we're all the same species and not subspecies or multiple separate species. The fact that you are making reference to the so called dominance of certain "races" (black) in certain sports has barely anything to do with the racial genetics. It has to do with the families specific genetics which vary within a race upwards of 80% (and less than 10% between these "races"), environment, etc.

EDIT: Hey man just read the snippit in your post on evolution, and yes that solidifies the fact that you either didn't read my post or didn't understand it. Allen's rule comes into effect in this so-called "real time". Check out the experiments done with children of different races raised in nonnative environments.

I keep reading this and will admit that I cannot precisely see what position you are taking.

I follow my island's high school volleyball seasons and know most of these kids and their families personally. I would say that the demographics are 1/3 split between Hawaiians, Japanese and Haole kids. And, since the way I know the Japanese boys is because their grandparents and mine were friends for decades, I can safely assume that the majority of these boys have been HI-bred Japanese for at least 4 generations. Some of these boys clear 5'11" on a good day. They comprise the majority of liberos/DS and none of them are Middle Blockers. A few are outside hitters, and almost all of the setters are Japanese. The MBs are roughly split between the Hawaiian and Haole boys, who also dominate %-wise as OH. No Haole liberos.

Now, we have all been eating spam for at least these last 4 generations. And, yes, I see a physical difference between local-born Japanese and Japanese Nationals (HI boys are meatier because of their diet and browner from living the tropics). But none of these boys (so far) have reached the cumulative height + vertical jump needed for MB. There is always a Haole or Hawaiian boy who will clean out that spot because even if they aren't that much taller, they can jump quite high.

So, help me see what you are saying.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

Absolutely. :) A person from the Northland who's ancestory has adjusted to the climate will be shorter and stockier (Innuet) than I person of a temperate climate. An individual from Africa generally will be more wiry and have longer appendages than an individual from a less extreme, more mild climate. Some traits, such as height are more readily affected by genes, although some scientists will even debate that as it appears diet and other external pressures influence even these seemingly cemented attributes. However, if you were to take a young child and raise them in an environment that is different than the one that their families were raised in, despite the genetic coding you will still have a variation in the individual to acclimate to that climate (i.e. longer, thinner limbs or a shorter stockier build) which is an illustration of Allen's Rule. Also, a while back if you remember, it was postulated that the reason Kenyans and other East African's excelled at distance running was because of their evolved response to their environment, namely an increased lung capacity and recovery rate. This doesn't really hold up as it was discovered that only a handful of Ethiopian societies produced the world class runners seen in the Olympics and other marathon events. Other societies which were genetically very similar, if not more or less identical, failed to produce top runners. The differences between the two seem to be in the cultural practices and the emphasis one society stresses upon such things as distance running, as apposed to being genetically based which would mean both of the groups should have similar yields, or at least individuals of similar ability. For your Hawaii question, yes, the Pake athletes may not be as tall as their counterparts who have maxed out due to genes and environmental interaction, but high is hardly an indicator of athletic ability. This arguement was based on innate athletic abilities more regularly associated with certain races because of that race's genetic makeup. This is not the case. Athletic traits like lung capacity, recovery time, etc. are more adaptations to an environment than "preprogrammed material" (adaptations not evolved or derived characteristics). Of course you do get the occasional freak-of-nature whose genes outright put them at an advantage (such as Lance Armstrong) but these anamolies are not associated with any one specific race. It would be the same to say that one race is inherently more intelligent or genetically predisposed to crime, or even better at card games than another. With this kind of fallacious thought, eugenics is groomed to make an appearance. It was eugenicists that did all of the early testing for racial athletic ability, cognitive capacity based on craniometry and IQ tests, and other things. (Guess what? They never found any actually discrepancies, except through experimental inconsistencies and fudging data, because after all we couldn't all be more or less equal could we? I mean we look so different! ) Variation does exists amongst populations (not entire races, the subject of which could constitute its own thread), but I've said it before and I'll say it again, we really aren't that divergent from one another, otherwise we'd all be different species. Environment and acclimation are more important for athleticism than ones race. For combating different diseases and such, I agree that some population's genetics do make a difference, but that's not really the case with athleticism. (And, remember that just because a family group within a population has a gene that might significantly alter their phenotype, like Lance Armstrong, does not indicate an entire racial prevalence). :D Hope that's a little more lucid. This topic is still debated among biologists but more and more biologists are favoring the environmental influences over strictly genetic dominance because anatomical studies don't indicate much if any genetic basis for athleticism.

Edit: to address the jumping discrepancy: things such as body mass (diet) and muscle percentages come into play. And how often are these kids jumping? My friends Black, White and Asian can school me on the court and can put me to shame in a vertical leap contest despite the fact that I'm significantly taller than they are simply because I don't practice as often as they do.

I've actually been doing some more reading on this an am coming across different takes, but the scientific basis for the counter assertions is shaky at best, and the whole "just watch sports" logical fallacy doesn't qualify as evidence any more than Africans constituting the majority of felons and therefore being naturally more delinquent does. I guess you have to choose who you believe, Gould or Entine.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

Additionally in the post above asserting 50% of Americans are feeble minded, the glaring error is just that. That statistic was derived by eugenicists from an IQ test, which we all know are bunk. :)

[PoiBoy]

NONE of what you said is breaking news. But you choose to cling on to certain beliefs to compensate for your shortcomings.

Edit: to address the jumping discrepancy: things such as body mass (diet) and muscle percentages come into play. And how often are these kids jumping? My friends Black, White and Asian can school me on the court and can put me to shame in a vertical leap contest despite the fact that I'm significantly taller than they are simply because I don't practice as often as they do.

LOL. It's all about practice right? :D I can tell you have never competed at any level as an athlete. So if everyone practices the same amount they would all be equal? :rolleyes:
You need to bring into factor the fast twitch muscle fibers type II B<----that give people the explosive strength to jump high and run fast. Some people and "races(I use this loosely)" are born with more type II B muscle fibers. Some are born with more Slow twitch Type I fibers. Through exercise/environment/diet you can change these muscle fibers to a "certain" degree. But no matter how hard you train you will never be as fast as Carl lewis. You will never be able to jump like Michael Jordan. And you will never bench press more than me. Yes, environment and culture play roles. But with out the genetics ....you will only be average at best.

Athletics is my field. I have seen people work their butt off and end up nowhere. They just don't have the genetics to succeed in certain sports. It's the fact of life...not everyone is created equal. "GET OVER IT"

Keep in mind. I'm talking real time" . No need for an "evolution" debate.
But what ever you wish to believe ....is up to you. Good luck with life bro.

This will be my final post on this subject.

[craigwatanabe]

The above post was not an attack on the general public, just the ones that think they are veritable experts.

Like you?:)

Lots of observations of what is and what isn't but the bottom line is look at the line up of successful athletes out there and look at the race they belong to. You don't have to be a veritable expert to see that.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

NONE of what you said is breaking news. But you choose to cling on to certain beliefs to compensate for your shortcomings.



LOL. It's all about practice right? :D I can tell you have never competed at any level as an athlete. So if everyone practices the same amount they would all be equal? :rolleyes:
You need to bring into factor the fast twitch muscle fibers type II B<----that give people the explosive strength to jump high and run fast. Some people and "races(I use this loosely)" are born with more type II B muscle fibers. Some are born with more Slow twitch Type I fibers. Through exercise/environment/diet you can change these muscle fibers to a "certain" degree. But no matter how hard you train you will never be as fast as Carl lewis. You will never be able to jump like Michael Jordan. And you will never bench press more than me. Yes, environment and culture play roles. But with out the genetics ....you will only be average at best.

Athletics is my field. I have seen people work their butt off and end up nowhere. They just don't have the genetics to succeed in certain sports. It's the fact of life...not everyone is created equal. "GET OVER IT"

Keep in mind. I'm talking real time" . No need for an "evolution" debate.
But what ever you wish to believe ....is up to you. Good luck with life bro.

This will be my final post on this subject.

Love the clear assumptions about me. Yes, I've played futbol, football, cross country, track, and basketball and while I prefer academics to sports when I've dedicated myself I'm easily able to perform at or above the level of my other teammates. Sure you might say bs, but I'm not kidding (save for dribbling in b-ball and all around baseball as I don't have the years of focused skill practice) conditioning, agility, and dexterity must come naturally to me. I guess I just hit the genetic lottery. (I've only lost sprints consistently to one African friend of mine in all my years, and this preformance had earned me the nickname "White Lightning")

As far as fast muscle twitch - LOL- there is an ongoing discussion within academia about whether is is possible to train yourself to increase muscle responses. Generally this kinda stuff doesn't make it to the public b/c uncertainty isn't as compelling as absolutes. (Kinda like the supposed but nonexistant scientific controversy over evolution-ID). That's all. I really don't have time to continue reading your pseudoscientific material or your opinions, in the future we may discover compelling evidence suggesting one "race" may be superior athletically, but currently we just don't have sufficient evidence except for the fact that Africans appear to dominate on TV. That would be a logical fallacy in an argument and that's the reason why I discounted it as actual evidence. (BTW I was talking real time, I don't know how many times I have to say that)

In case you didn't know I'm a biologist in training (although not in the field specifically of evolution or HBV I have had the opportunity to work with the leaders in both of those fields).

Alright I'm pau with this topic. Let's move on. I was looking forward more to instigating an argument with Timmy Kona in this thread, but he didn't bite. :) Despite the vehement debate here, I hope we can respect each other around the boards.

[PoiBoy]

Highschool? :D
Love the clear assumptions about me. Yes, I've played futbol, football, cross country, track, and basketball and while I prefer academics to sports when I've dedicated myself I'm easily able to perform at or above the level of my other teammates. Sure you might say bs, but I'm not kidding (save for dribbling in b-ball and all around baseball as I don't have the years of focused skill practice) conditioning, agility, and dexterity must come naturally to me. I guess I just hit the genetic lottery. (I've only lost sprints consistently to one African friend of mine in all my years, and this preformance had earned me the nickname "White Lightning")


You also said:
My friends Black, White and Asian can school me on the court and can put me to shame in a vertical leap contest despite the fact that I'm significantly taller than they are simply because I don't practice as often as they do."

Contradicting statements there bro. You prove to be a liar. :)

As far as fast muscle twitch - LOL- there is an ongoing discussion within academia about whether is is possible to train yourself to increase muscle responses. Generally this kinda stuff doesn't make it to the public b/c uncertainty isn't as compelling as absolutes. (Kinda like the supposed but nonexistant scientific controversy over evolution-ID). That's all. I really don't have time to continue reading your pseudoscientific material or your opinions, in the future we may discover compelling evidence suggesting one "race" may be superior athletically, but currently we just don't have sufficient evidence except for the fact that Africans appear to dominate on TV. That would be a logical fallacy in an argument and that's the reason why I discounted it as actual evidence. (BTW I was talking real time, I don't know how many times I have to say that)

In case you didn't know I'm a biologist in training (although not in the field specifically of evolution or HBV I have had the opportunity to work with the leaders in both of those fields).

Good luck. LOL

Well your credibility just flew out the window. END OF STORY. :D

[Whitepoint3rchum]

My God *shakes head*
Doesn't understand what a logical fallacy is, "Oh no, I mistyped on an internet forum I'm not infalliable, oh no!", jacks comments outa context, selective hearing when his semi-literate mother reads him other peoples postings (assumptions, I can make 'em to), seems to think my credibility hinges on an online community, obviously has no collegiate experience as rhetoric and debate skills are unrefined and sophomoric, reads popular science and thinks he is an expert, and he is a laughable affront to academia. Stereotypical imbecile: PoiBoy. You weren't able to identify the glaring rhetorical misdteps in my arguments (I do that to see if the person is intelligent enough to actually wage a real factual debate with) and you kept hitting on points I addressed over and over and over. Damn, and I thought timkona was the most arrogant, annoying person on HT, but at least he has the cognitive ability that affords him the ability to be that way without looking like a joke... ROFLMAO. Do the world a favor and sterilize yourself (the one time you will see me advocate eugenics). Alright, ignore time.

BTW: What happened to the previous post being your last? Oh no, a petty oversight, thus logically..... YOU'RE A LIAR!!!!!!!!!! (< at least according to your logic... a b4 you cite it I WAS pau with the topic until I saw you still haven't wisened up. Sorry, but your family was incorrect, you are not an intelligent man/boy. If you're still a kid all I can say is kiss the merit scholarship, Johns Hopkins Talent Search offers goodbye.) Your assessment of things is at the feeble minded level, I'm going to say maybe you're twelve? If you're older, then damn fool, you're a disgrace to the race. Don't bother reply to this with another one of your intellectually vapid posts, as I've put you on ignore (I know it takes multiple posts to get through your cranium, as some of what I've said has still yet to penetrate it, so I thought I'd rehash the above ^ statement in case that too escaped your astounding critical reading capabilities.) Peace sucker. :D

[PoiBoy]

MELTDOWN. :D

First you said:
My friends Black, White and Asian can school me on the court and can put me to shame in a vertical leap contest despite the fact that I'm significantly taller than they are simply because I don't practice as often as they do."

Then you said:
conditioning, agility, and dexterity must come naturally to me. I guess I just hit the genetic lottery. (I've only lost sprints consistently to one African friend of mine in all my years, and this preformance had earned me the nickname "White Lightning")


Let the people judge for themselves. :D

[Whitepoint3rchum]

^See what I told you? The man is just a dumbass in paradise. (fuggin' doesn't even comprehend /ignore)... to funny. This will probably be the last time I argue something objective strongly on this forum as its getting rediculous and what with the access to the all the internet material I might as well just go argue with wikipedia, it would be no different. :)

Just remember Poidog, you ain't (<not grammatically incorrect) a mathematician, you ain't a linguist, you ain't a chemist, a physicist, or a biologist. Stick with what you're good at (i.e. spamming internet boards to rack up post count) and leave the advanced material to those of us who have put in hours, and studied the fields. :cool:

PS-Be careful who you argue with, after all there is no way of telling who is behind the computer screen; The fact that you so quickly disregarded my side of the argument which was supported by Harvard biologist Steven J. Gould, UCLA biologist Jared Diamond, Berkeley biologists Kevin Padian and Leslea Hlusko, as well as biological anthropologist John Relethford, as well as countless scientific papers into comparative anatomy and PBS (hehe), should make you feel like an assclown if you're not too much of a chauvinist to admit it to yourself. Prof. Poidog, that's what I'm going to refer to you as. :)