Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

[Konaguy]

I find this attempt by HSF to jump the gun by starting service before the environmentalists can file their legal motions very questionable. Its like they are trying the flaunt the decision made by the Hawaii Supreme Court.

[Miulang]

I find this attempt by HSF to jump the gun by starting service before the environmentalists can file their legal motions very questionable. Its like they are trying the flaunt the decision made by the Hawaii Supreme Court.
You could look at it that way, or you could say that this is the "dry run" that HSF needs to either make or break them. But this reminds me of another renegade businessman in the transportation industry who came to Hawai'i last year...:rolleyes:

There is also still the matter of the Judge August ruling in which the DOT has to make some traffic mitigation changes on Maui before he will allow HSF to dock at Kahului Harbor. I haven't seen anything in the press yet to say that that one isn't still valid. And this one really has very little to do with HSF...it's all about the State DOT not doing enough to mitigate the traffic situation. (See the traffic study done in Nov. 2006 by CH2M Hill for HSF in post #484).

Miulang

[joshuatree]

You could look at it that way, or you could say that this is the "dry run" that HSF needs to either make or break them. But this reminds me of another renegade businessman in the transportation industry who came to Hawai'i last year...:rolleyes:

There is also still the matter of the Judge August ruling in which the DOT has to make some traffic mitigation changes on Maui before he will allow HSF to dock at Kahului Harbor. I haven't seen anything in the press yet to say that that one isn't still valid. And this one really has very little to do with HSF...it's all about the State DOT not doing enough to mitigate the traffic situation. (See the traffic study done in Nov. 2006 by CH2M Hill for HSF in post #484).

Miulang

How is it a dry run when it's paying passengers? Sure, the fare is cheap but it's still an actual run. I really don't see what's to worry with traffic, if you check the specials, they've limited it to 150 vehicles and it's 150 for both Maui and Kauai. I get the feeling that some people simply can't be happy that perhaps cheaper means of transportation is available for the masses?

[Sprite]

And flying pigs too!
Talk about a shocker. Sheesh.

But you said above that you hadn't been paying attention. HSF has shown a huge and beyond-the-norm concern. You're just not aware of it.

Yes, Hawai`i looks really really stoopid today in the eyes of the world.
:mad:

No, I meant that I was puzzled by the apparent lack of concern on the part of the environmentalists. But, as you said, they probably were aware that HSF had already been looking into this. Now I don't know why they didn't just say so when about four or five people asked about it. Irrelevant, just an observation.

Ditto on the last remark. Sigh. Thank you much, LikaNui, that's just what I wanted this morning -- enlightenment! I just haven't been able to get back here until now. Sorry. :(

This evening, KHON's evening news said that HSF is pushing up their journey two days to beat the court filing to stop them. The saga continues. Is that going to be Chapter 5? :)

[Konaguy]

Our own Mel had a guest editorial published on Hawaii Reporter (http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?e38ec40a-7156-4d9a-8579-9e328c035583) in regards to HSF.

"The environmental groups and many individuals from as far away as Seattle and beyond are probably gloating over this decision on the false pretense of saving whales and turtles, preventing the spread of invasive species, drug trafficking, and congestion. Hawaii Superferry addressed these issues yet they still insisted on having an EIS done."

[pzarquon]

I love this development. I hope they have a full house. I'd book a trip myself, if I didn't, you know, have to be back on Honolulu on Monday morning. Sure, it's flauting the will of the courts, but... hey, there's no injunction yet. Ultimately, this is turning out to be a surprisingly delicious game of chess.

[joshuatree]

I love this development. I hope they have a full house. I'd book a trip myself, if I didn't, you know, have to be back on Honolulu on Monday morning. Sure, it's flauting the will of the courts, but... hey, there's no injunction yet. Ultimately, this is turning out to be a surprisingly delicious game of chess.

Is it really a flaunt of the courts when there is no exact order barring service? Just that an EIS needs to be done? I think HSF is trying to demo as quickly as possible how light of a footprint they will leave with a full load, thus the cheap tix to get a full load fast.

[escondido100]

i am sure that the legal eagles at SF have anticipated this ruling for some time....if they launch early as they say they will i am sure they planned fro such a move way in advance. just think of the PR nightmare for the state...the judges.... the wackos and everybody else if those first passengers with their cars are stranded on maui or kaui or oahu because of an injunction being granted on monday.......i am sure that the wackos are trying to get a judge to issue an injunction over the weekend.... there are probably precedents for this.......lets get the EIS and move forward.....there is so much political BS here that when it gets all sorted out some one will have to pay dearly...probably us....
i am also sure that the folks at SF also have plans C,D,E and F ready to go.
probably one of those plans include pulling out completely and moving it all to some other third world island nation that would welcome them with open arms...there are hundreds of places they could move...probably not without the same population base.....but they are in this business and know it well.... the superferry will succeed somwhere.....if they pull out of Hawaii....our face will be MUD for along time to come.....those of us that want the ferry and want it to be responsible here need to let our displeasure at this turn of events be known loud and clear..... i think this early launch will help them.... they have not been told they cant.....yet.

[Konaguy]

Is it really a flaunt of the courts when there is no exact order barring service? Just that an EIS needs to be done? I think HSF is trying to demo as quickly as possible how light of a footprint they will leave with a full load, thus the cheap tix to get a full load fast.

Its an obvious attempt to stick the finger at the court from my vantage point. Its pretty cut and dry, a EIS needs to be done before HSF can commence service. By commencing service they are breaking the law.

Yes there is no injunction in place. But thats exactly my point.The courts are not open on Sunday to hear any injunction motions. Since that is the case HSF is starting service.

This all could've been avoided if the EIS was done BEFORE HSF spent the multi millions on setting up shop here. I fault the HDOT for the latter. They
exempted the HSF from doing any EIS.

[pzarquon]

Is it really a flaunt of the courts when there is no exact order barring service? Just that an EIS needs to be done?True, true. Which is why I noted that without an injunction, they're not exactly going against anything. Just public perception. And there's a lot of perceiving going on, from both sides of the debate!

When I first heard about this, I figured an injunction was inevitable, and hence the rush to service. But the more I think about it, I'm not sure. The Hawaii Supreme Court said the state should not have given Hawaii Superferry a waiver from the EIS requirement, yes?

So one, Hawaii Superferry has good faith grounds as an operator, saying, "We received the waiver and planned our launch accordingly." The screw up is the state's, and hence the state should bear most of the adverse results. So now an EIS will be required... but that doesn't necessarily preclude active use of the facility in question. Look at Makua Valley. (Er, or maybe that's a bad comparison...)

And two, a very likely outcome of an EIS would be, "More mitigation efforts needed," not, "Evil evil evil must stop immediately!" Better traffic control, more monitoring or reporting, other infrastructure improvements, and so on. These are things that can be implemented concurrent with operation, IMHO.

[joshuatree]

Its an obvious attempt to stick the finger at the court from my vantage point. Its pretty cut and dry, a EIS needs to be done before HSF can commence service. By commencing service they are breaking the law.

Hmm, you lost me. Based on this link, HSF can still sail and it is the state that has the burden of EIS. That's the reason why the anti-HSF folks said they will file an injunction. So I believe this acknowledges HSF setting sail on Sunday is legit and can't be considered a finger.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Aug/24/br/br0123865497.html

[Miulang]

True, true. Which is why I noted that without an injunction, they're not exactly going against anything. Just public perception. And there's a lot of perceiving going on, from both sides of the debate!

When I first heard about this, I figured an injunction was inevitable, and hence the rush to service. But the more I think about it, I'm not sure. The Hawaii Supreme Court said the state should not have given Hawaii Superferry a waiver from the EIS requirement, yes?

So one, Hawaii Superferry has good faith grounds as an operator, saying, "We received the waiver and planned our launch accordingly." The screw up is the state's, and hence the state should bear most of the adverse results. So now an EIS will be required... but that doesn't necessarily preclude active use of the facility in question. Look at Makua Valley. (Er, or maybe that's a bad comparison...)

And two, a very likely outcome of an EIS would be, "More mitigation efforts needed," not, "Evil evil evil must stop immediately!" Better traffic control, more monitoring or reporting, other infrastructure improvements, and so on. These are things that can be implemented concurrent with operation, IMHO.
It's not HSF's fault for this screwup; it's really the DOT (starting with Rod Haraga and having the errors compounded by Barry Fukunaga). In many ways, I don't blame HSF for taking advantage of the situation. It's really more the fault of the DOT. And HSF still will have to comply with any EIS mitigations that either the EIS that they now promise to do as "things progress" once they have started service and/or the EIS that the DOT is doing for the Year 2030 Kahului Harbor Master Plan. And in that one, all harbor users are impacted, so the mitigations will be pretty severe for HSF unless NCL pulls out completely, because of the traffic situation. They are still liable for an EIS, whether they sail or not. No one---not HSF, the State or any of the other litigants is saying that HSF doesn't have to have an EIS done in some form or other; the issue has always been the timing. By State law, because the State provided funding for the harbor facilities, HSF does have to submit to an EIS. The next date in court for the first suit that Judge August ruled on regarding traffic mitigation will be Nov. 3 on Maui when HSF and the DOT have to present their findings.

Miulang

P.S. Here is the State law (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0343/HRS_0343-0005.HTM)that the pro-EIS groups are using to prove their point.

§343-5 Applicability and requirements. (a) Except as otherwise provided, an environmental assessment shall be required for actions that:

(1) Propose the use of state or county lands or the use of state or county funds, other than funds to be used for feasibility or planning studies for possible future programs or projects that the agency has not approved, adopted, or funded, or funds to be used for the acquisition of unimproved real property; provided that the agency shall consider environmental factors and available alternatives in its feasibility or planning studies; provided further that an environmental assessment for proposed uses under section 205-2(d)(9) or [205-4.5(a)(13)] shall only be required pursuant to section 205-5(b);

[Sprite]

... Ultimately, this is turning out to be a surprisingly delicious game of chess.

LOL! You're terrible! :D I agree that any fixes needed can be done while HSF conducts its business. I think this is the only compromise available at this point. I think Schrivener suggested this earlier also... yes, here it is...

Schrivener said, "I'm not saying no to the ferry. In fact, I think it should be allowed to proceed, with the condition that an EIS be conducted within the next X months."

This seems, to me, a reasonable and intelligent solution.

[zztype]

More power to 'em. I'll be dialing like crazy tomorrow morning trying to get on the freakin' boat!

[Composite 2992]

It's all so annoying.

Spread of invasive species? Vehicles carried by barges dwarf the number of cars expected to be carried by the Superferry. Numbers of passengers moved, along with their soiled shoes, are far greater by the airlines. And the cruise ships, more than twice as large as the Superferry and carrying four times as many passengers, put a much greater burden on the harbors.

Yet only the Superferry needs to get an EIS done?

I'm not against getting things done right. But they also need to be conducted fairly and reasonably. Any controls imposed upon the Superferry must also be imposed upon all other carriers. If environmental protection is the purpose of these controls, then they must be applied to all modes of travel. No exceptions.

Otherwise, what's the purpose except to specifically prevent the Superferry from conducting its business?

[1stwahine]

I'll be dialing for my daughters and son-in-law. I gotta start work soon.:)

Good Luck to all who can get on the SF!

With the Special Price or not, My Ohana will be customers!;)

Auntie Lynn

[Konaguy]

Hmm, you lost me. Based on this link, HSF can still sail and it is the state that has the burden of EIS. That's the reason why the anti-HSF folks said they will file an injunction. So I believe this acknowledges HSF setting sail on Sunday is legit and can't be considered a finger.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Aug/24/br/br0123865497.html

Its pretty clear to me. The HSF is starting service before the environmentalists file their injunction motion. To me that is sticking the finger at the judiciary.

[LikaNui]

I would not want to be on one of the first trips to Kahului, especially not if I'm taking my car with me. If you want to be part of an experiment, go ahead. Indeed. This is the very first time in recorded history that there's ever been a ferry, and also the very first time in recorded history that a ferry has ever carried vehicles. Yes, Miulang, HSF spent hundreds of millions of dollars on an "experiment". Uh-huh. Right. :rolleyes:
On the other hand, you have just helped show the one or two doubters the reason that I feel obligated to chastise you when you post something, you know, egregiously STUPID from your ivory tower there in Seattle.

Oh, and don't forget the Dramamine, and always stare at the horizon and don't stuff your face too much (...) Oh, and make sure you bring your patience and not your road rage, because it's going to take you awhile to get off that boat. Okay, I'm curious. Is everyone this ridiculously biased on the planet you come from?
:confused:

[Karen]

Its an obvious attempt to stick the finger at the court from my vantage point. Its pretty cut and dry, a EIS needs to be done before HSF can commence service. By commencing service they are breaking the law"

Konaguy, they are not breaking any law! My goodness, and why is it so important for an EIS before they start service when all of the cruise ships aren't held to the same standard? barges? I hear nah....

No law is broken. They didn't give the finger to the court, but to the tree huggers, yeah...and justice is sooo sweet. The people want the ferry, watch. It'll be full and used.

[Konaguy]

Konaguy, they are not breaking any law! My goodness, and why is it so important for an EIS before they start service when all of the cruise ships aren't held to the same standard? barges? I hear nah....

No law is broken. They didn't give the finger to the court, but to the tree huggers, yeah...and justice is sooo sweet. The people want the ferry, watch. It'll be full and used.

All I'm saying is this, HDOT erred in exempting the HSF from doing a EIS.It should've been done before HSF commenced starting up service.
But the boneheads at HDOT thought it was cool to exempt HSF. Thus putting all taxpayers at risk.

HSF is breaking the law pure and simple. Citing what Miulang wrote a few posts back. If State facilities or money was not involved, a EIS would not
be necessary. That is difference why YB/Matson/NCL are exempted from doing a EIS.

§343-5 Applicability and requirements. (a) Except as otherwise provided, an environmental assessment shall be required for actions that:

"(1) Propose the use of state or county lands or the use of state or county funds, other than funds to be used for feasibility or planning studies for possible future programs or projects that the agency has not approved, adopted, or funded, or funds to be used for the acquisition of unimproved real property; provided that the agency shall consider environmental factors and available alternatives in its feasibility or planning studies; provided further that an environmental assessment for proposed uses under section 205-2(d)(9) or [205-4.5(a)(13)] shall only be required pursuant to section 205-5(b);"

That all being said, HOPEFULLY clear heads will prevail and this service will be able to move forward with a EIS being done concurrently with the service.If not the State of Hawaii and us taxpayers will be on the hook for lots of money.

[GeckoGeek]

Translation: "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

Damm! Beat me to it!

[GeckoGeek]

HSF is breaking the law pure and simple.

No, the state broke the law in issuing an exception. The HSF company did everything that was asked of them. Yes, a law was broken, but it was the state who broke it, not HSF.

I think I understand what you are trying to say - that the law says "x" and "x" was not done, therefore it's illegal. But the details of "who" is as fault is a major detail in understanding where this is going.

Now the question I have is what is the scope of the required EIS? A know some people are concerned about the whales, invasive species, etc. But it seems the courts are most concerned about the vehicular traffic. Of course, the environmental wackos, having pre-determined the desired answer ("no") will use any and all legal excuses to halt HSF. Even if issues they pursue don't have anything to do with their real concerns.

[Karen]

Okay, spill the beans...who from HT has reservations for Sunday? Monday?

I know! those that need to be back on Oahu for Monday can ride the ferry one way and fly back for twenty bucks before bedtime Sunday night.

[joshuatree]

HSF is breaking the law pure and simple. Citing what Miulang wrote a few posts back. If State facilities or money was not involved, a EIS would not be necessary. That is difference why YB/Matson/NCL are exempted from doing a EIS.

But doesn't YB/Matson/NCL use state facilities when they dock? I don't believe any of those companies actually own the piers.

[mel]

Okay, spill the beans...who from HT has reservations for Sunday? Monday?

I'm thinking about maybe just spending only $10 for a roundtrip on the same voyage going and coming without stepping off the boat... just for the ride and maybe catch some pictures of the islands along the way (to Maui).....

Haven't made up my mind about that yet....

[Konaguy]

No, the state broke the law in issuing an exception. The HSF company did everything that was asked of them. Yes, a law was broken, but it was the state who broke it, not HSF.


Whoops, thanks for catching that. I was on a roll on and made that incorrect distinction.

[Sprite]

I have to admit, I wish I had tickets for Sunday... to go and come back. That would be fun. Like Mel says, just to take pictures... in my case that would be pictures of who knows what.

Clever rascal this HSF... you know that ferry is gonna be full, no matter what. There's something to be said for controversy. :)

[1stwahine]

Dang! I can't get through!!!:eek:

"Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at res.hawaiisuperferry.com."

I called the number den it said to call 101015800.

Number is wrong!

Auntie Lynn

[Konaguy]

But doesn't YB/Matson/NCL use state facilities when they dock? I don't believe any of those companies actually own the piers.

Yes Matson/YB don't own the piers. They are using state facilities. But the piers were not built specifically for Matson/YB/NCL in mind. On the other hand
the state is building facilities and spending taxpayer dollars specifically for HSF. Hence where the law I cited kicks in.

[zztype]

I'm getting in to the web site right now and the $5 reservations for the Labor Day weekend are available.

I'm also on hold on the phone waiting for the next available agent to confirm my trip.

Just click the link on http://hawaiisuperferry.com (Note that they don't use the www. in their address.)

Call 1-877-443-3779. Press 2, at next message, press 2.

Other notes: The lady who recorded the phone tree messages speaks WAY too slowly, though the voice is pleasant. But after a few seconds, she becomes really irritating. They need to shorten the message and speed up giving you the options.

Then when finally you get the options pressed, the music that comes on is very nice, but VERY LOUD!

[mel]

One caveat about a possible joy ride... if you want to get the full experience of the Superferry and photos from the front of the ship, you have to spring an extra $20 each way for the first class lounge. So that would make the total price of a first class RT $50. ($10 base RT + $40 first class upgrade RT).... of course you can just do the first class on one segment and save $20 on the other by not upgrading.

The potential for the best photos is probably up front though traveling early in the morning to Maui, you may get a nice sunrise but later on possibly some glare through the large windows... and you cannot go outside from the first class section.

On the rear of the ship there is a small balcony like area where you can get some unobstructed glass free scenics.

The potential for good photos on a Kauai trip is a little less since the only islands you'll see is Oahu and Kauai and nothing but water in between, not to mention that a direct return trip will occur in the night.

All this based on a quick go and come trip, same day voyage. There is about a 90 minute layover between trip segments.

[zztype]

Yes Matson/YB don't own the piers. They are using state facilities. But the piers were not built specifically for Matson/YB/NCL in mind.

Who were the piers built for???

What about Aloha Tower and the big cruise ships? Didn't they spend a bunch of money on Aloha Tower area?

I don't think I can park my boat there. (No, not really. I don't have a boat, but you know what I mean...)

[1stwahine]

Just click the link on http://hawaiisuperferry.com (Note that they don't use the www. in their address.)

Call 1-877-443-3779. Press 2, at next message, press 2.

Other notes: The lady who recorded the phone tree messages speaks WAY too slowly, though the voice is pleasant. But after a few seconds, she becomes really irritating. They need to shorten the message and speed up giving you the options.

Then when finally you get the options pressed, the music that comes on is very nice, but VERY LOUD!

I did all that and den it disconnected on me three times!:(

The link doesn't work foa me. FireFox is blocking something.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Have a Great Trip Everybody!

Lynn

[zztype]

I still on hold!! 35 mins now.

[1stwahine]

I still on hold!! 35 mins now.

Waterfall...waterfall...surfing...raining...nah... nah..juss joking!:)

Lynn

[Konaguy]

Who were the piers built for???

What about Aloha Tower and the big cruise ships? Didn't they spend a bunch of money on Aloha Tower area?

I don't think I can park my boat there. (No, not really. I don't have a boat, but you know what I mean...)

The existing piers were not built for one singular entity.For example if Matson or NCL exclusively used the piers and it was specifically built for them using
taxpayer funds, a EIS would have be done. But since that is not the case,thats why they are exempted. That isn't the case for HSF though. The
harbor improvements are being funded with taxpayer funds. Plus the improvements will be exclusively used by HSF.

[Sprite]

Honolulu to Maui... 3 hrs! So, if you decide you want to go joy riding, you need to figure on at least eight hours or so. Can you walk all around the ferry or are you pretty restricted? Must take airplane back... unless they have WIFI! :p Yo, Adrian, will Clear Wire work on the SF?

Just thinking and wondering. Oh, and are they wheel chair accessible? Mom wants to do the boat thing and most of our lunch/dinner cruisy things don't do wheelchairs. Is that an ADA violation? Not sure.

Shopping list prior to boarding:

Creme Crackers (for me)
Dramamine (for Mom... & hubby if he agrees to go)
New LapTop
New Contract with ClearWire
HSF Tickets
Airline Tickets for return

Hmmm... suddenly this joy ride got expensive! :D

[zztype]

Waterfall...waterfall...surfing...raining...nah... nah..juss joking!:)

Hahaha! Funny.

Actually, I gave up after 90 minutes with the phone stuck on my ear. But during the 90 minutes, I got up, wandered to the kitchen, cooked a pot of coffee, went lua. I came back several times to check and I was still on hold with the music blasting my ears.

After 90 minutes, I gave up, hung up, then called back the number. Busy. Called again. Busy.

Give up. I call um bumbye.

I actually was interested because I booked a trip to Maui yesterday AT FULL PRICE. Then I found out about the $5 deal. :(

So I was reading on their site and it said that the previously booked passengers would get the $5 fare. :)

This morning, I was trying to confirm that I would get the cheap fare, and not the $600 fare for our trip. Not happening. I'll call them later.

But at 5:45 a.m. when I got on their web site, still had trips available for the Labor Day weekend! I went all the way through the reservation system online. Only had to hit the final button and I would have TWO trips to Maui for the family.

[joshuatree]

The existing piers were not built for one singular entity.For example if Matson or NCL exclusively used the piers and it was specifically built for them using
taxpayer funds, a EIS would have be done. But since that is not the case,thats why they are exempted. That isn't the case for HSF though. The
harbor improvements are being funded with taxpayer funds. Plus the improvements will be exclusively used by HSF.

Don't think the facilities for HSF were specifically built for them either. The pier facility on Oahu had been completed for years, in hopes of a ferry like HSF would utilize it. And supposedly if another ferry came to town, I believe these same facilities are to be made available to them. Look, I don't mind an EA or EIS but what's good for the goose is good for gander. It would really be interesting to see how Matson/YB/NCL fare in an EIS assessment.

[Sprite]

It would really be interesting to see how Matson/YB/NCL fare in an EIS assessment.

I'll say! I would love to see THAT report!

[Konaguy]

Don't think the facilities for HSF were specifically built for them either. The pier facility on Oahu had been completed for years, in hopes of a ferry like HSF would utilize it. And supposedly if another ferry came to town, I believe these same facilities are to be made available to them. Look, I don't mind an EA or EIS but what's good for the goose is good for gander. It would really be interesting to see how Matson/YB/NCL fare in an EIS assessment.

I disagree, the 40 million dollars in Hawaii taxpayer funds is being used to build harbor infrastructure for HSF's exclusive use. The pier facility you
mention was originally built for the cruise ship service, not exclusively for one company. That being said, if HSF built the harbor infrastructure without
Hawaii taxpayer money, this all would be moot.

In short there is no legal reason why NCL/YB/Matson should be required to do a EIS. But there is strong legal reasons why a EIS/EA should've been
done for HSF.

The Star Bulletin has a op-ed (http://starbulletin.com/2007/08/25/editorial/editorial01.html) which supports my argument.

[mel]

I tried to post this earlier, but the board was frozen for some reason.

Honolulu to Maui... 3 hrs! So, if you decide you want to go joy riding, you need to figure on at least eight hours or so. Can you walk all around the ferry or are you pretty restricted? Must take airplane back... unless they have WIFI! :p Yo, Adrian, will Clear Wire work on the SF?

Just thinking and wondering. Oh, and are they wheel chair accessible? Mom wants to do the boat thing and most of our lunch/dinner cruisy things don't do wheelchairs. Is that an ADA violation? Not sure.

Hmmm... suddenly this joy ride got expensive! :D

Yes, with the upgrade it can be expensive... but remember this, it is probably as cheap as it will be with this introductory promo fare.

But just by taking a tour of the ferry last month, I can see that the $20 upgrade to first class is worth it more than an upgrade to first class would be on an inter-island airline flight. You are going to be on the ship for 3 hours each way. Would be nice to get the whole run of the passenger deck instead of being blocked 2/3 the way through.

The only thing that I am uncertain about is the legal cloud and possible action the court could hurl at the Superferry on Monday, possibly shutting down the operation to accommodate the environmental wackos. Hopefully that won't happen.

For that reason I am not going to make a reservation since I don't want to deal with refunds.

If you take your computer, be sure to bring your AC cord and perhaps a power strip onboard with you. Our own PZ found power outlets (http://flickr.com/photos/hawaii/937018091/in/set-72157601073162092/) near some tables and seats where you can plug in. I don't know about wifi. Can't remember if they had that or not. Someone please tell us if you do ride.

And if you are not a sports fan, you may want to being one of those portable DVD players along and plug that in. I am sure most of the overhead TV's will be plugged into some football game, especially if anyone is traveling tomorrow.

On another note, long ago when I worked for an ad agency in the 1990s, we did one of those Port Hawaii booklets. It had plans for upcoming developments for all of the harbors. In Honolulu there was a plan to build a ferry terminal long before Superferry ever came into being. This would have been funded through the regular process of DOT appropriations that they get from the legislature, much like how it is now.

In so far as the EIS or EA or whatever goes, then if that is required only for Superferry, then it should be strictly for the harbor facility and not for whale avoidance, the possible spread of invasive species or drug trafficking. All of this can be done without the Superferry. The only thing that harbor improvements might bring in the case of the Superferry is increased vehicular traffic.

Which reminds me, the intersection to/from pier 19 to Nimitz will probably need a traffic light installed in the near future.

Still I believe that singling out only the Superferry to comply with some EIS or EA is still unfair as the rest of the commercial maritime industry has never been subjected to this.

[Konaguy]

I
Still I believe that singling out only the Superferry to comply with some EIS or EA is still unfair as the rest of the commercial maritime industry has never been subjected to this.

If HSF used their own money instead of taxpayer funds to build the harbor infrastructure for their exclusive use, a EIS/EA would not be necessary.

[Miulang]

Still I believe that singling out only the Superferry to comply with some EIS or EA is still unfair as the rest of the commercial maritime industry has never been subjected to this.
And I keep trying to tell you guys that there IS an EIS for all harbor users of Kahului Harbor that is being done right now by HDOT. So you can stop yammering about how the whackos are singling out HSF for an EIS. The most critical issue is not the whales; it's the traffic mitigation in the Kahului area and the use of the port facilities over the next few years that has Maui County most worried. Tomorrow's trip to Maui might not be too bad for people who drive their cars because it'll be Sunday and traffic is generally lighter. And next Monday will also be lighter because of the Labor Day holiday. But come Tuesday and Wed. of next week when everyone is back at work, take your patience along because it might take you an hour to get off Pier 2. Even with a rent-a-cop directing traffic, there will be a bias toward letting the traffic on Kaahumanu/Puunene Ave have the right of way. And this is the first time I've ever seen any State agency work so fast to comply with a court order (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070825/NEWS01/708250350).:)

Miulang

[joshuatree]

In short there is no legal reason why NCL/YB/Matson should be required to do a EIS. But there is strong legal reasons why a EIS/EA should've been done for HSF.

Are you telling me that NCL/YB/Matson all use their own personal facilities? This is where the argument about EAs and EISs look hypocritical. I'm willing to bet if an EIS was ever conducted on these operations, they probably grade a lot worse than HSF. And the whole grandfather argument is BS, if the environment is really the point of all this argument, all of them should be subjected. Otherwise, why did car manufacturers have to bother moving from R12 refrigerants to R134a? One can easily argue grandfathered in as well.

[mel]

And I keep trying to tell you guys that there IS an EIS for all harbor users of Kahului Harbor that is being done right now by HDOT. So you can stop yammering about how the whackos are singling out HSF for an EIS.

You telling me what to do all the way from your lofty, cold perch in Seattle??? You don't live in Hawaii.

The wackos want to stop the Superferry from operating. That's the gist I get by watching the news report on LOCAL TV last night that you don't get out there in SEATTLE. Everything you post about are based on web info and nothing else because of your location.

You cannot be as intimately involved with Hawaii issues by being so damn far away. You are not paying our taxes, you are not living here. Two short visits a year don't count until you get permanent residence, pay our taxes 365 days a year and vote in our state. Otherwise you are just a poor, lame armchair quarterback calling the shots from out of state.

The wackos want to shut down the ferry plain and simple. Sierra Club and the 2 others on that legal complaint.

Go take care of your local issues in Seattle and let Hawaii people mind theirs.

[Miulang]

You telling me what to do all the way from your lofty, cold perch in Seattle??? You don't live in Hawaii.

The wackos want to stop the Superferry from operating. That's the gist I get by watching the news report on LOCAL TV last night that you don't get out there in SEATTLE. Everything you post about are based on web info and nothing else because of your location.

You cannot be as intimately involved with Hawaii issues by being so damn far away. You are not paying our taxes, you are not living here. Two short visits a year don't count until you get permanent residence, pay our taxes 365 days a year and vote in our state. Otherwise you are just a poor, lame armchair quarterback calling the shots from out of state.

The wackos want to shut down the ferry plain and simple. Sierra Club and the 2 others on that legal complaint.

Go take care of your local issues in Seattle and let Hawaii people mind theirs.
It's NOT all based on the web. Believe it or not, I still have contacts on Maui who are well connected in the community.:cool: And as an HT moderator, Mel, aren't you supposed to be a little less biased? :)

Miulang

[mel]

It's NOT all based on the web. Believe it or not, I still have contacts on Maui who are well connected in the community.:cool: And as an HT moderator, Mel, aren't you supposed to be a little less biased?

Miulang


1. I don't moderate this section of the board. Only the Hawaii Media.
2. I and many others on this board absolutely hate it when you talk down to us telling us "you should do this" "you should do that" while you don't walk the walk with us in Hawaii. People have reminded you about this over and over. Still you do the same.
3. I don't care if you have contacts or not. Just the simple fact that you are living so far away from us and constantly talk down to us is disgusting.
4. And again you are telling me what to do. Get off your high horse! :mad:

[Miulang]

1. I don't moderate this section of the board. Only the Hawaii Media.
2. I and many others on this board absolutely hate it when you talk down to us telling us "you should do this" "you should do that" while you don't walk the walk with us in Hawaii. People have reminded you about this over and over. Still you do the same.
3. I don't care if you have contacts or not. Just the simple fact that you are living so far away from us and constantly talk down to us is disgusting.
4. And again you are telling me what to do. Get off your high horse! :mad:
As PJ says; "AINOKEA".:p

Miulang

[mel]

Then expect more of the same.

[Miulang]

This is kind of interesting...one of the reasons (http://www.mauinews.com/news/2007/8/25/01ferry0825.html)why HSF may be offering the $5 OW fares is because of this statement made by Terry O'Halloran in this morning's Maui News about the number of reservations already taken for the original inaugural trip to Maui on Sept. 5:

O’Halloran said he did not know exactly how many reservations had been made for the original starting day of Tuesday, but he thought it was “under 100.”


And Orenstein commends HSF for its pricing tactics, but isn't planning to lower go!s fares any lower than they already are.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

So let's consider worst case scenario, HSF gets shut down till an EIS gets done which could mean years. Any recourse for HSF in Hawaii? What if they realigned their business to simply shipping transport, a competitor to YB? No pax, just faster and easier (roll-on/roll-off) cargo shipping. Are they then subjected to an EIS? :p

[Konaguy]

Are you telling me that NCL/YB/Matson all use their own personal facilities? This is where the argument about EAs and EISs look hypocritical. I'm willing to bet if an EIS was ever conducted on these operations, they probably grade a lot worse than HSF. And the whole grandfather argument is BS, if the environment is really the point of all this argument, all of them should be subjected. Otherwise, why did car manufacturers have to bother moving from R12 refrigerants to R134a? One can easily argue grandfathered in as well.

Let me make it easy for you. The State of Hawaii has provided 40 million to build harbor infrastructure for HSF's exclusive use. Matson, NCL, or YB never received taxpayer subsidies to build their harbor infrastructure. Hence why its not hypocritcal that YB/NCL/Matson is exempted from doing a EIS, but HSF is not. If HSF built their harbor infrastructure itself, the environmentalists would not have a leg to stand on legally.

[Miulang]

The Office of Environmental Quality Control (http://www.state.hi.us/health/oeqc/rules/index.html), which is a department within the Dept. of Health, is the State body that ultimately decides what has to be included in any EIS or EA.

By law, certain other State agencies have on file with this department a list of exceptions. The Dept. of Transportation (http://www.state.hi.us/health/oeqc/exemptions/sdot1100.pdf)has an exception filed. The part of this exception that allowed the DOT to claim that there was no need for the EIS is in Exemption Class 6 ("Construction or placement of minor structures accessory to existing facilities"), #8.

Alterations or improvements and associated utilities, which are incidental to existing and boat ramp operations, in accordance with master plans that have met with the requirements of chapter 343, Hawai'i Revised Statutes. Such improvements include concessions, comfort stations, pavilions, paving, rockwalls, fencings, walkways, loading docks, warehouses, piers, offices, container freight stations, cranes, fuel lines, lighting, sprinkler and drainage systems.

However, at the very bottom of this exception, is this note:

Pursuant to Sec. 11-200-8 (b) Hawai'i Administrative Rules, all exemptions under this list are inapplicable when the cumulative impact of planned successive actions of the same type, in the same place, over time, is significant, or when an action that is normally insignificant in its impact on the environment may be significant in a particularly sensitive environment.

Miulang

[LikaNui]

take your patience along because it might take you an hour to get off Pier 2. Or it might NOT. Unless you're clairvoyant, you really don't know that for a fact, and you're just guessing. As usual. :mad:

Even with a rent-a-cop directing traffic, there will be a bias toward letting the traffic on Kaahumanu/Puunene Ave have the right of way. Really? Did some secret inside source call you in Seattle and swear to you that there would be that "bias"? Or are you, you know... guessing again?

And this is the first time I've ever seen any State agency work so fast to comply with a court order You expected them to take months or years to just paint a few new stripes in the road there?
And gee, that state agency moving fast must mean that the state wants the SuperFerry.
Imagine that.
:rolleyes:

[joshuatree]

Let me make it easy for you. The State of Hawaii has provided 40 million to build harbor infrastructure for HSF's exclusive use. Matson, NCL, or YB never received taxpayer subsidies to build their harbor infrastructure. Hence why its not hypocritcal that YB/NCL/Matson is exempted from doing a EIS, but HSF is not. If HSF built their harbor infrastructure itself, the environmentalists would not have a leg to stand on legally.

Per what you posted in #520.

§343-5 Applicability and requirements. (a) Except as otherwise provided, an environmental assessment shall be required for actions that:

"(1) Propose the use of state or county lands or the use of state or county funds, other than funds to be used for feasibility or planning studies for possible future programs or projects that the agency has not approved, adopted, or funded, or funds to be used for the acquisition of unimproved real property; provided that the agency shall consider environmental factors and available alternatives in its feasibility or planning studies; provided further that an environmental assessment for proposed uses under section 205-2(d)(9) or [205-4.5(a)(13)] shall only be required pursuant to section 205-5(b);"

Does NCL/YB/Matson not use state or county lands? So doesn't that subject them to an EIS?

And the 40 million for HSF use. Is it exclusive or just simply HSF being the only sole user? I know it sounds like semantics but it makes all the difference in the world. If Clone Ferry comes to town, does HSF have sole use of the barges?

[Konaguy]

Does NCL/YB/Matson not use state or county lands? So doesn't that subject them to an EIS?

And the 40 million for HSF use. Is it exclusive or just simply HSF being the only sole user? I know it sounds like semantics but it makes all the difference in the world. If Clone Ferry comes to town, does HSF have sole use of the barges?

I'm not sure what the land arrangement is between the State of Hawaii and YB/Matson/NCL. But I would venture to say that they are either leasing land from the state of Hawaii or own their land outright. I'm not sure if that information is even available online.

As for the 40 million in taxpayer funds being used for harbor infrastructure. Again, I'm not sure exactly what the arrangement between the state and
HSF is. I'm not aware of any of the agreements being posted online.I do know this though, it would be very unlikely another company would want to use
these barges if HSF goes belly up. So I look at it that this tax money is primarily benefiting HSF.

[LikaNui]

Must take airplane back... unless they have WIFI! They do. You perhaps missed seeing the posts here about a week ago when Miulang accused the SuperFerry of not having WIFI... then I pointed out they do indeed have it... then Miulang tried to take credit for the idea and implied (very ridiculously) that SuperFerry installed a whole WIFI system overnight just because of her. :rolleyes:
Kinda explains why so many people here are really really tired of her posts, yeah?
Anyway, yes, SuperFerry has WIFI. Sorry I don't recall the post number where I gave the specifics on it.
:o

Oh, and are they wheel chair accessible? Absolutely! They're very very accomodating that way and have gotten lots of compliments.
:)

[Miulang]

According to this Appendix (http://www.hawaiisuperferry.com/images/pdfs/Environmental_CommittmentsActions_appxA.pdf)to the Superferry application for certification before the PUC, there were no existing harbor facilities in Kahului, Nawiliwili or Kawaihae to accommodate HSF. So the DOT was working with HSF to guarantee that there would be facilities available by the time HSF was ready to sail. (See Sec. C on page 6: "Use of State Harbor Facilities")

Miulang

[helen]

i am sure that the legal eagles at SF have anticipated this ruling for some time.

lets get the EIS and move forward.


For all we know the folks at the SuperFerry may have already drafted their EIS for just in case.

i am also sure that the folks at SF also have plans C,D,E and F ready to go.
And maybe a plan G would in case they can not sail to other ports in the state would be using the SuperFerry as a dinner cruise ship, based out of Oahu. You don't have to worry about leaving behind your car at the pier since it will be on the ship as well when you have your dinner.

[joshuatree]

And maybe a plan G would in case they can not sail to other ports in the state would be using the SuperFerry as a dinner cruise ship, based out of Oahu. You don't have to worry about leaving behind your car at the pier since it will be on the ship as well when you have your dinner.

Oahu's rail on water!!! :p

One boat to do Kapolei to downtown. The other to do windward to downtown.