Pedestrians

[WindwardOahuRN]

Yes, it does seem like they are being picked off like flies on Hawaii's roads.

But seriously. I have never in my life seen such thoughtless street-crossing by pedestrians. Unbelievable. Not only do many not even look as they step into traffic, they don't even speed up when they see traffic approaching.

A few years back I almost took out a small group of elderly ladies on Liliha Street who had just walked in front of a stopped bus and into traffic. No way could they have seen me---they all had big sun-umbrellas FACING the closest lane of traffic.

Sun spots would have been a joy compared to what could have happened had I been going just a wee bit faster or not paying attention. :eek:

I rather resent the present advertising campaign which seems to lay all the blame on the drivers. Sure, some may be careless but there is little that a driver can do when a pedestrian steps right into his path from the curb.

Whenever I hear about yet another pedestrian being struck here I'm reminded of Bette Midler's sister. She was born and raised in Hawaii. She went to NYC to see Bette and was killed by a NYC taxi as she stepped into the street.

Somehow it just doesn't surprise me.

[tutusue]

I'm so with you on this, RN. Just today I was half way into an intersection when a pedestrian stepped off the curb without even a glance in any direction but down. Yes, he was in a crosswalk, but he started his cross after I'd started mine. I slammed on my brakes. He didn't flinch...just kept walking. I just don't get that kind of pedestrian mentality. Maybe he had a death wish and I destroyed it by stopping. Dunno...:(

[lavagal]

It's amazing. When we lived in Honolulu Tower, there was always this one old lady who would step off the curb, hold up her arm and walk into traffic. I don't get the "I'm stepping in front of cars and I will not react or panic or act like they are even there" level of "coolness" that's going on. I see kids do it, adults do it, seniors do it. I also don't get the ones who run, run, run to get to cross the street and then they put on the brakes and literally crawl across the street, purposely going slower when the light has already given the sitting cars permission to go. I'd prefer they walk to the corner, and RUN across the street. I also don't get the ones who ride their bikes on the sidewalk and then walk their bikes across intersections. I should probably get some sleep.

[WindwardOahuRN]

What also irks me is the failure to establish eye contact. It's often difficult to figure out whether a pedestrian has seen you or not. With rare exception they just step off the curb and plow straight ahead. What is up with that?

I realize that in some cultures direct eye contact is considered rude but really...we can make an exception for road crossings, I think.

While I'm on a roll---strollers. Someone should tell those jogging moms that strollers are not to be confused with cowcatchers. They should not be used to run interference on sidewalks and in stores. And they should NEVER be shoved out recklessly into crosswalks without looking first. I've seen Mom standing on the curb and baby in stroller fully out in the crosswalk!! :mad:

[adrian]

I honked at one ped when she was j-walking on farrington, and she just smiled and continued while another car stopped when she entered the left lane. (I guess its because my car's horn sounds a bit high). Anyway, when I'm a ped I always look both ways twice - even when I have the light to cross.

I bet if everyone experienced someone almost getting hit (or getting hit with the whole flying onto the hood and everything) then they'll think twice. :D

[WindwardOahuRN]

I bet if everyone experienced someone almost getting hit (or getting hit with the whole flying onto the hood and everything) then they'll think twice. :D


LOL---I frequently comment to my husband that those rare folks who we see scampering across the street, looking both ways numerous times and establishing eye contact, must have been hit at least once.

[GeckoGeek]

In driving downtown, I see a lot of bad pedestrians. Rarely do a see a bad driver that's a danger to pedestrians. So it irks me no end when Lingle tries to up the penalties for failing to stop for someone in a cross walk. Cars need stopping distance. Walkers don't. Sheesh.

[Hellbent]

People tend to think theyre car-proof nowadays. I really hate it when people are mosy-ing down the costco or walmart parking lot, in the middle of the lane, like theyre a car. They either think theyre really skinny or the lane is actually alot bigger and that you can drive around their fat 15-muffin-ass.

Dont get me started on the people inside costco and their carts.

[Miulang]

The pedestrians who perturb me the most are the ones who just HAVE to jaywalk because they're too lazy to use the crosswalk which might only be about 5 ft away! I will come to a complete stop for people who use the crosswalk, but I won't for jaywalkers.

Miulang

[adrian]

LOL---I frequently comment to my husband that those rare folks who we see scampering across the street, looking both ways numerous times and establishing eye contact, must have been hit at least once.
a SUV driver narrowly missed me while crossing the street near my home a few years ago while walking home from school (imagine Kevin in 'home alone' walking home and almost got hit by that van). And yes, the driver was talking on her phone.

[adrian]

Dont get me started on the people inside costco and their carts.
*pokes hellbent into ranting about people in costco and their carts*

But I know how you feel. Sam's has those humongous push carts (we call them mini-trucks) and sometimes people don't know how to push them! Same for those huge carts. They just leave them in the aisle (if you can call it that) and expect you to navigate it around their cart with what little space you have.

[pzarquon]

There was a story on KHON last night focusing on a current drive to enforce pedestrian safety laws... and I was impressed to see tickets being handed out to pedestrians as well as drivers... including little old ladies trying to wobble across the street from between parked cars.

[joshuatree]

*pokes hellbent into ranting about people in costco and their carts*

But I know how you feel. Sam's has those humongous push carts (we call them mini-trucks) and sometimes people don't know how to push them! Same for those huge carts. They just leave them in the aisle (if you can call it that) and expect you to navigate it around their cart with what little space you have.

I just sideswipe their carts with my cart. If you can't figure out from that subtle message, oh well, I'll just sideswipe your cart again the next time we meet in the aisles. :D

[AbsolutChaos]

Dont get me started on the people inside costco and their carts.

I always wished they'd introduce some kind of road system in Costco, so people have to say in the proper lane, have to stay in a lane to turn, with pull-offs for browing--and maybe some traffic lights.

At least give us all free knee pads and elbow pads and helmets. :D

[GeckoGeek]

I know some states the pedestrian doesn't have the right away. I know when I'm there, I can feel that I'm taking my life into my own hands when I cross the road. I'd be curious about all the states that are "safer" then Hawaii how many have pedestrian unfriendly laws.

I'm wondering if our history of pedestrian friendly has lead to a feeling of pedestrian entitlement and end up bringing new meaning to "being dead right".

[craigwatanabe]

While I'm on a roll---strollers. Someone should tell those jogging moms that strollers are not to be confused with cowcatchers. They should not be used to run interference on sidewalks and in stores.

I'll take the defensive on strollers. When I would go to a store with my kid in the stroller w/cup holders, there's always a group of people standing in the middle of a doorway, aisle or prominade jabbing away while people walk around them. I run into them.

They get all huffy and I stare at them with this nonverbal look that says, "Hey stupid your ignorant chatting is right where people need to be walking so move the F*ck outta da way".

Having a baby stroller at Ala Moana shopping center on a Saturday is a great way to clear the path:D

[Pomai]

Yesterday in Waikiki, HPD patrol officers on foot stood by crosswalks and stopped motorists at random to educate them on the new pedestrian law. My girlfriend was stopped, which the officer simply handed her this flyer...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/384779267_f91137eaec_o.gif (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=384779267&size=o)

Then, just as she carried on driving, a (tourist) pedestrian not far down from where the police were standing J-walked across Kalakaua ave.. :confused:

The City & County should post SIGNS with the pedestrian law all around our island's roads. Or at least in areas with heavy foot traffic such as downtown and waikiki.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I'll take the defensive on strollers. When I would go to a store with my kid in the stroller w/cup holders, there's always a group of people standing in the middle of a doorway, aisle or prominade jabbing away while people walk around them. I run into them.

They get all huffy and I stare at them with this nonverbal look that says, "Hey stupid your ignorant chatting is right where people need to be walking so move the F*ck outta da way".

Having a baby stroller at Ala Moana shopping center on a Saturday is a great way to clear the path:D

after the first kid, I was so over the stroller. From then on, a baby carrier (front for when they were small, backpack for when they were big and two diapers + baby wipe traveler pack and I was good for whatever I needed to do. Everything extra sat in the car. Travel light, move fast.

[WindwardOahuRN]

Yesterday in Waikiki, HPD patrol officers on foot stood by crosswalks and stopped motorists at random to educate them on the new pedestrian law. My girlfriend was stopped, which the officer simply handed her this flyer...
Then, just as she carried on driving, a (tourist) pedestrian not far down from where the police were standing J-walked across Kalakaua ave.. :confused:

The City & County should post SIGNS with the pedestrian law all around our island's roads. Or at least in areas with heavy foot traffic such as downtown and waikiki.

It's not a pedestrian law. It's a driving law.

From that flyer it looks like drivers are supposed to be able to stop on a dime and pedestrians don't have to pay attention at all. They just have to make sure they are positioned correctly in the road or in imminent danger of being hit.

Then whatever happens isn't their fault.

I get it now. :confused:

[GeckoGeek]

From that flyer it looks like drivers are supposed to be able to stop on a dime and pedestrians don't have to pay attention at all.

A know. I'd like to put a group together and get photos of prominent positions violating the law. Just need to get someone to put a foot into the crosswalk as they're passing. Sometimes the best way to deal with a dumb law is to enforce it.

[Kahalu'u Kid]

In driving downtown, I see a lot of bad pedestrians. Rarely do a see a bad driver that's a danger to pedestrians. So it irks me no end when Lingle tries to up the penalties for failing to stop for someone in a cross walk. Cars need stopping distance. Walkers don't. Sheesh.

R U serious? Come on now. There's just as many idiotic drivers as there are idiotic pedestrians. I've seen sooo many drivers turn right on red without even stopping, almost plowing into the pedestrians crossing the adjacent street. This problem is a 2-way street (no pun intended)--when 2 idiots meet, something bad is bound to happen.

[GeckoGeek]

R U serious?

I didn't say I never saw a bad driver, just far fewer bad drivers then bad pedestrians. Maybe just the luck of the route I drive.

Now, if I want to find bad drivers, I'd just hang out at Bishop and King on the off-rush hour time. Maybe it's changed since they improved the light, but it used to be every few light cycles someone wouldn't quite get the concept of "left turn on green arrow only" and try to turn with pedestrians in the walk.

[Kalihiboy]

Since I can at times log 70 miles a week either running or walking at times I think I have a unique perspective of what it is like to be a pedestrian in Honolulu more than the average person. I can tell you this that almost every single day I run into so many incidents in which drivers simply do not pay attention because they are in a rush or on a cell phone. It has gotten much worse with cell phone use for drivers, sometimes I have counted 10-20 cars in a row that have had drivers talking on their phones and not paying attention when they turn or cross a crosswalk. I often have asked myself what is everyone in such a hurry about it's not as if anyone has to travel very far, I mean we're on an island, not driving state to state and want to reach Motel 6 in Palm Springs by dusk. What is the deal with everyone going so damn fast??

I used to think sometimes if I had my son and his stroller that things would be different but we often have had many a close call and there is nothing I can do about it other than take down their license but what does that do if nobody is caught in the act so to speak.

KalihiBoy

[Hellbent]

I always wished they'd introduce some kind of road system in Costco, so people have to say in the proper lane, have to stay in a lane to turn, with pull-offs for browing--and maybe some traffic lights.

At least give us all free knee pads and elbow pads and helmets. :D

i always said that they should only issue carts to people with drivers licenses and put down lane markers too! but seeing as how people WITH licenses dont know how to drive, it wouldnt make much difference.

the worst is when theres a free sample booth. one lady was completely obstructing the small path by the freezer section and looked at me and said 'oh am i blocking your path?' lady, do you need to absolutely grab not 1 sample but 5 of those meatballs? can you not afford to eat lunch outside? its just $1.50 for a hotdog. <grrrr>

and then youll be pushing a flatbed full of soda and some tard will do a sudden stop, resulting in you almost either a) running into them or b) pitching the contents of your cart onto the ground.

i move fast. i get what i need and get out. ive been guilty of accidentally nipping at someones heels because they move so damn slow.

[Bard]

It has gotten much worse with cell phone use for drivers, sometimes I have counted 10-20 cars in a row that have had drivers talking on their phones and not paying attention when they turn or cross a crosswalk.

You could always carry one of those canned air horns they have at football games. I bet that'd get their attention if they started to cut across your crosswalk :D

[Miulang]

This is getting ridiculous...three pedestrian/vehicle accidents (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070213/NEWS01/702130356/1001/NEWS)in Honolulu in one day? I know most of the time it's because pedestrians aren't using crosswalks, but for the times that they are, are the walk lights in Honolulu the kind that not only start flashing "wait" when the cycle is nearly over, but also have a "counter" that lets pedestrians know how many more seconds they have to get across the street before the light turns green? If you don't, maybe installing those would help pedestrians get across the street more safely. That, and enforcing the rule that once in a crosswalk, cars have to come to a complete stop for the pedestrian.

Miulang

[1stwahine]

The accident that occurred in the Pua Lane/Liliha Area is known to have Pedestrian Accidents. In fact, last year a man was killed. The suspect is still not found. The light poles are a reminder of his death as they continue to have flowers, balloons and whateva's on them as a memorial. To me it's become an eyesore and a distraction.

The whole area is dangerous and Officials betta start doing sumting before another pedestrian gets hurt or killed! For one thing it's DARK!:mad:

Auntie Lynn

[Pomai]

I just seen a PSA (Public Service Announcement) TV ad the other night on slowing down in school zones. They depict a father driving his son to school, not paying attention to the road, and a mom and daughter about to enter a crosswalk. Then the skidding brakes sound. Pretty eye-opening and effective. Actually scary, having you think they were gonna' show the aftermath. :eek:

But, I thought it was going to be for the new pedestrian law, not "Slow Down in School Zones". Where's the "Pedestrian Law" PSA? I never seen that one yet. :confused:

[AbsolutChaos]

I know most of the time it's because pedestrians aren't using crosswalks, but for the times that they are, are the walk lights in Honolulu the kind that not only start flashing "wait" when the cycle is nearly over, but also have a "counter" that lets pedestrians know how many more seconds they have to get across the street before the light turns green? If you don't, maybe installing those would help pedestrians get across the street more safely.
Miulang

Most of our pedestrian lights are the older kind with only the flashing light warning. The only one with a counter I've seen is on Keeaumoku near Walmart, a high traffic and high pedestrian zone. Very smart move to put one there. Wonder how much time and how many more accidents it will take to change more of the lights to the ones with counters? (Although I've still seen a few people ignore the counters and continue to walk slowly once they make it to the crosswalk, even as it comes to zero, sigh...).

[christa]

ok so i was always the irritated driver waiting to turn when people were crossing slowly but ever since some older woman HIT ME with her car after stopping for me to cross then getting mad and going anyway. i think she was trying to scare me and thought she was going to just pass closely... but can you believe that? i was SO mad. what's funny is how she was in traffic and couldn't go anywhere after it happened. i don't want to admit to what i did next. um, so i won't :)

but that's my pedestrian story. today when i was crossing vineyard from queen emma (the walk sign that says "walk" for 15 seconds on a HUGE crossing) someone waiting to turn got mad at me. i'm not old-- i was walking super brisk to get across. screw you, mad driver. i'm ALLOWED to cross the street. ugh.

i don't really have a point here. i'm just saying... i've been on both sides. drivers shouldn't get mad at people for wanting to walk, though. these careless pedestrians are annoying but it seems like they are creating this anger in drivers that are all taking it out on ME.... the considerate pedestrian.
:eek:

[christa]

I just seen a PSA (Public Service Announcement) TV ad the other night on slowing down in school zones. They depict a father driving his son to school, not paying attention to the road, and a mom and daughter about to enter a crosswalk. Then the skidding brakes sound. Pretty eye-opening and effective. Actually scary, having you think they were gonna' show the aftermath. :eek:


i remember a tv spot in Britain that actually did show the aftermath. it was eeeeeew! i wonder how their pedestrian fatalities were after that. it was quite some time ago, like 1998.

[Hellbent]

ok so i was always the irritated driver waiting to turn when people were crossing slowly but ever since some older woman HIT ME with her car after stopping for me to cross then getting mad and going anyway. i think she was trying to scare me and thought she was going to just pass closely... but can you believe that? i was SO mad. what's funny is how she was in traffic and couldn't go anywhere after it happened. i don't want to admit to what i did next. um, so i won't :)

I hope you had a ketchup packet and sprayed it all over your leg and scared the crap out of them =p

[alohatim]

these careless pedestrians are annoying but it seems like they are creating this anger in drivers
:eek:

It seems like just getting in the car transforms many folks into angry people. Just try to drive with aloha.

[craigwatanabe]

Only in America do we censor the graphic scenes of an automobile accident. The carnage is intense but it really makes you reconsider the value of life.

I had the gross opportunity to be the first responder to a fatal high-speed head on accident on the mainland.

Two automobiles. One a small compact the other a lifted truck. The truck was on the wrong side of the highway coming up a hill. The impact took out most of the driver's side of the compact from the grill to the rear wheels.

The husband was the driver of the compact and was nowhere to be seen except for fleshy parts mixed with the engine that was pushed into the back seat on the driver's side.

The wife however a young woman from Hawaii of all places was spared any external physical wounds but was killed by the sheer magnitude of the impact. Her body couldn't take the force of the sudden stop and basically every bone and organ in her torso had been crushed somehow. When I saw her her body was slowly compressing into her lap.

The driver of the pickup truck survived and was arrested. He was arguing with his wife who was driving her car and he was attempting to force her off the road.

The sad part was that after I walked away from the carnage, other drivers who had stopped had to pull the driver of the truck who was still enraged over his wife from beating her. He was so full of anger he hadn't realized he'd just killed two people. Amazing.

[WindwardOahuRN]

There was a very old commercial about driving safety that showed an accident scene. The events leading up to the scene were depicted. It seemed that the victim, now dead, had been doing everything right---speed, right-of-way, etc. Yes, the one who hit him was alive and was to blame for the accident. The emphasis was on defensive driving, looking for what the OTHER guy was doing and not being complacent that your great driving was going to keep you safe.

The commercial ended with "Yes, he was right. DEAD RIGHT."

Maybe that should be the direction in which some ads should go here----not declaring that pedestrians have all these rights but instead telling them to watch the hell out and look both ways seventeen times and establish eye contact and don't trust crosswalks or crossing lights to keep you safe. That drivers MAY be distracted and may not see you and hey, they are driving CARS and you are just a fragile human body. And HUSTLE a bit when you go across that street, please.

[Leo Lakio]

Growing up, my mother phrased it thus:
"Don't make us put 'BUT I HAD THE RIGHT-OF-WAY' on your tombstone."

[tutusue]

[...]Maybe that should be the direction in which some ads should go here----not declaring that pedestrians have all these rights but instead telling them to watch the hell out and look both ways seventeen times and establish eye contact and don't trust crosswalks or crossing lights to keep you safe. That drivers MAY be distracted and may not see you and hey, they are driving CARS and you are just a fragile human body. And HUSTLE a bit when you go across that street, please.
Yesterday I came upon a defensive pedestrian. Thank God as I was the one at fault. I was pulling out of Ala Moana Center via one of those little exits onto Ala Moana Blvd. down from the 2nd level near Sears. I looked to the right...nobody. I looked to the left and watched car after car pass by until one car stopped and waved me in. I did not look right again. MY BAD. Eventually I saw a pedestrian was standing there and he was akamai enough to keep standing there to see if I'd look right. It still gets my adrenaline going. Thank you Mr. Pedestrian for not being an idiot like the driver was. :o

[adrian]

You could always carry one of those canned air horns they have at football games. I bet that'd get their attention if they started to cut across your crosswalk :D
ooh, not a bad idea!

Maybe I should install that in my car also. No one will expect a small car like mine to have a big arse horn like that.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Girl crossing street hit in head by vehicle's back mirror

A 13-year-old girl was transported to The Queen's Medical Center in serious condition this morning after she was struck in the back of the head by a vehicle's rear view mirror while crossing the street at the intersection of North School Street and Likelike Highway.

(from the Advertiser's breaking news (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/May/08/br/br6879015423.html) section, so I dunno if the URL will be permanently good)How the hell did this happen? You're not supposed to even enter the intersection if there are people crossing! I hope the police are all over this driver.

[Adri]

How the hell did this happen? You're not supposed to even enter the intersection if there are people crossing! I hope the police are all over this driver.

Didn't they recently change the law so that cars could not enter a cross walk if a pedestrian was in that half of the cross walk (as opposed to what I think it used to be ~ that cars should not enter a cross walk if a pedestrian was anywhere in the cross walk). I wonder if that contributed to the accident? In any event, the driver just wasn't paying attention I think (unless the girl ran up and hit the car mirror with the back of her head).

[Leo Lakio]

(unless the girl ran up and hit the car mirror with the back of her head).Whoa! Is that a popular past-time amongst 13-year-olds in Hawai`i these days? I am SO out of the loop with kids' games now...

[IBadget]

The 13-year-old girl who got hit in the head with the car's rearview mirror while crossing the street reminds me of the time my dad yelled at me while I was crossing Farrington Highway near Waipahu High School for not looking both ways before crossing. He was driving on Farrington Highway when he stopped and yelled at me to stop and look both ways before crossing.

I think that the pedestrian law makes people think that looking both ways is old-fashioned and obsolete. Always look both ways because it's better to be safe than sorry.

[lavagal]

How the hell did this happen? You're not supposed to even enter the intersection if there are people crossing! I hope the police are all over this driver.

It's possible she was actually just going straight with the traffic and got hit in the back of the head that way. I used to ride my bike from downtown to UH and delivery and mini tour vans were notorious for playing chicken with me that way.


I think that the pedestrian law makes people think that looking both ways is old-fashioned and obsolete. Always look both ways because it's better to be safe than sorry.

Actually, what we're doing now is telling people to look Left-Right-Left, to wait until you make eye contact with a driver contemplating making a right on red or turning out of a driveway or onto another street, and to follow the pedestrian signals and not the green-amber-red lights because those are vehicular directions. (Unless there is no pedestrian device at the corner).

I might sound like I know what I'm talking about. I volunteered today for the AARP at lunchtime today at King and Kekaulike. Some HPD guys were there, and Barbara Kim Stanton and Jackie Boland of AARP were there, as was an army of volunteers (and at 10 places around town). I found it discouraging that pedestrians didn't want HPD's or our Walk Wise Hawaii brochures. It was as though they don't want help. Pedestrians, especially seniors, walk around looking down, don't pay attention to traffic signals, and tend to shy away from assistance. The flip side is that drivers, secure in their metal pods, have no personal relationship with a pedestrian. There's no love in the driver-pedestrian relationship UNTIL eye contact occurs. Give aloha. Stop, wave the pedestrian by, smile, give aloha. And if you're a driver stopping for a pedestrian, or if you're a pedestrian walking across a multi-lane road like Bethel, Bishop or Beretania, look for and give aloha all the way across. Delaying for a pedestrian might cost you a couple of minutes. Killing one will consume a lot more time.

[tutusue]

My observations of late, during my forays around town, are that drivers seem to be making a concerted effort to take more care near crosswalks. Pedestrians, otoh, seem to pay very little attention; no eye contact; no looking both ways; head down; step off the curb. Today I was a pedestrian at Ala Moana and Hobron waiting to cross Ala Moana. There was a break in traffic on Ala Moana so a pedestrian crossed on the red light. My friends and I stood there, stunned. By the time he got to the median traffic was approaching the crosswalk. That didn't stop him! That's the kind of guy who would've sued had he been hit.

What's really scary is that other pedestrians saw that idiot cross so they started to follow suit. We shouted "stop"!!! They were tourists and not familiar with the recent fatalities. Still...:eek:

[Blubearypye]

... Today I was a pedestrian at Ala Moana and Hobron waiting to cross Ala Moana. There was a break in traffic on Ala Moana so a pedestrian crossed on the red light. My friends and I stood there, stunned. By the time he got to the median traffic was approaching the crosswalk. That didn't stop him! That's the kind of guy who would've sued had he been hit. What's really scary is that other pedestrians saw that idiot cross so they started to follow suit. We shouted "stop"!!! They were tourists and not familiar with the recent fatalities. Still...:eek:

Speaking of Ala Moana...I frequent it daily and as a pedestrian crossing between the parking and KB's Toys I see how careless other pedestrians are. I feel sorry for the drivers because they will let a bunch cross and then someone will run across last minute...so the next wave of people end up crossing in a pack.

[WindwardOahuRN]

Actually, what we're doing now is telling people to look Left-Right-Left,

Good Lord. I remember teaching that to my kids as soon as they could understand the words. It amazes me that grown people need to be told this. :eek:

[lavagal]

Good Lord. I remember teaching that to my kids as soon as they could understand the words. It amazes me that grown people need to be told this. :eek:

This whole issue is an uphill battle. It's like rolling a boulder up a mountain...someone's avatar here a while back!