Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

[lavagal]

I'm sure Rep. Neil Abercrombie is steamed to find out the results (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Mar/21/br/br9850174263.html)of the Native Hawaiian bill. While he was thanking GOPers on the floor, they trashed it. I'm sure we haven't heard the last of Neil on this one. I feel for the guy!

[Leo Lakio]

Someone want to give Rep. Abercrombie a hand removing those knives from his back? "Et tu, Boehner?"

[lavagal]

Someone want to give Rep. Abercrombie a hand removing those knives from his back? "Et tu, Boehner?"

You are so right! What the pho? Whatever happened to truth? Oh wait, this is Congress.

[timkona]

I really need to know what it is about Hawaiians that makes them inferior?

If they are not inferior, then why do they need special programs?

If you want to own a home, work hard, and buy a home. Which part of that is the confusing part?

There is no doubt that I am confused on the special needs issue.

[Keanu]

I really need to know what it is about Hawaiians that makes them inferior?

If they are not inferior, then why do they need special programs?

If you want to own a home, work hard, and buy a home. Which part of that is the confusing part?

There is no doubt that I am confused on the special needs issue.

Don't mistake your ignorance for confusion, timothy.

The republicans are hypocrites for claiming that special legal privileges for Native Hawaiians are unconstitutional. The whole damn U.S. annexation of Hawaii was unconstitutional.The Newlands Resolution, the illegal act which "provided" for the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands to the United States and signed by a corrupt U.S. President was itself unconstitutional. I challenge anyone to cite the provision within the framework of the United States Constitution that enables the U.S. government to annex a foreign territory (which Hawaii was at the time) to the United States by joint resolution.

[buzz1941]

Even at the time, the "overthrow" and the annexation were hot-button issues. More so today. There is what is legal, and what is right.

[Keanu]

Even at the time, the "overthrow" and the annexation were hot-button issues. More so today. There is what is legal, and what is right.

Both the overthrow and annexation were neither legal nor right.

[Deep Thought]

Sooooo basically you are saying that two wrongs make a right? Granted the SCOTUS has reversed itself in the past, but as it stands precedent argues against it.

[Keanu]

Sooooo basically you are saying that two wrongs make a right? Granted the SCOTUS has reversed itself in the past, but as it stands precedent argues against it.

What precedent are you referring to?

[Da Rolling Eye]

Whooops! Politics! Backstroke. ;)

[timkona]

In my neighborhood, there are 32 homes. Hawaiians own around 22 of the homes. When the Bishop sold us the land 3 years ago, all of my neighbors were able to buy the land. In fact, a couple of my neighbors helped each other to make sure everybody got to buy. It was terrific.

I'm not talking about history of 120 years ago. My question is concerning the now, and the today issues. Why does Abercrombie think Hawaiians can't buy a house for themselves? If somebody treated me like a moron, or presumed that I was somehow unable to compete in the real world, I would be a little ticked off.

Hawaiians should be furious with Abercrombie because he presumes that they are somehow unable to fend for themselves. By my experience, and seeing my neighbors, I would tell you that the Hawaiians in South Kona have no problem making a go of their lives. They own their homes. They work as hard, or harder, than I do. They own good looking trucks. Some have boats. And motorcycles. They throw terrific parties, full of good food, and lots of love.

Maybe Abercrombie is thinking of some other Hawaiians that I have never met. Cuz the ones I know and love are hard working mofo's just like me. Ain't no difference whatsoever, and believe me, our skin color don't matter.

[timkona]

This thread has languished for some reason.

I guess Abercrombie is the ONLY person in the State of Hawaii who thinks Hawaiians can't cut the mustard. But I'd have thunk that lot's of folks would get on this thread and try to prove why Hawaiians can't make it on their own.

I must say that I am pleased. Cuz I have always thought Abercrombie was a duncecap, and a giant enemy of the Hawaiians due to his condescending opinion of them. I can tell you from experience that Hawaiians are just as capable, moreso in some things, as anybody else I know.

[Deep Thought]

What precedent are you referring to?

Sorry it was an indirect reference to Rice v Cayetano and its collective implications toward OHA. I don't know exactly when the push for tribal status began (can anyone enlighten me?). I don't remember hearing about it till after Rice, which would make attempting to gain tribal status somewhat disingenuous since the movement (sovereignty) didn't try to portray itself as a tribe. How can it be a tribe now? Then there's the possibility of the recent Kamehameha Schools case moving to the SCOTUS, although even assuming it gets cert the Court has changed composition lately and certainly isn't the Court that heard Rice.

I believe that there is weight and validity behind the constitutional challenge that resulted from Rice, and that the questions raised regarding Kamehameha's admissions policy have merit. Court decisions aside, in a country where, at least on paper, racial discrimination is prohibited is it desirable to allow exceptions based on historic deprivation/discrimination?

[Keanu]

Sorry it was an indirect reference to Rice v Cayetano and its collective implications toward OHA. I don't know exactly when the push for tribal status began (can anyone enlighten me?). I don't remember hearing about it till after Rice, which would make attempting to gain tribal status somewhat disingenuous since the movement (sovereignty) didn't try to portray itself as a tribe. How can it be a tribe now?

It started in 2000 with the introduction of the Akaka bill in response to the numerous attacks on Native Hawaiian programs. I know the good Senator means well but the bill fails to make light of the fact that the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands was ILLEGAL. There is no provision in the U.S. constitution or any principle in international law which could have provided a proper legal basis for the U.S. to acquire the Hawaiian Islands as a territory by joint resolution. I think it also important for people to know that the statehood vote was a sham attempting to hide the historical illegality that began in 1893, with full U.S. complicity.

[alohabear]

It started in 2000 with the introduction of the Akaka bill in response to the numerous attacks on Native Hawaiian programs. I know the good Senator means well but the bill fails to make light of the fact that the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands was ILLEGAL. There is no provision in the U.S. constitution or any principle in international law which could have provided a proper legal basis for the U.S. to acquire the Hawaiian Islands as a territory by joint resolution. I think it also important for people to know that the statehood vote was a sham attempting to hide the historical illegality that began in 1893, with full U.S. complicity.If you can't change the past, why not support the future? Learn from the mistakes our leaders made in the past and apply it to your wants for the future. On this Kuhio day, remember that even Prince Jonah eventually supported the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands.

[TuNnL]

On this Kuhio day, remember that even Prince Jonah eventually supported the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands.Really?! Wow, you learn something new every day. Was this before or after he served a year in prison for leading a revolution to restore Queen Lili‘uokalani to power in 1895?

[alohabear]

Really?! Wow, you learn something new every day. Was this before or after he served a year in prison for leading a revolution to restore Queen Lili‘uokalani to power in 1895?Two years after his release he came to view annexation by the US as preferable to the Republic. He later became an Republican and the Hawaiian rep. to Congress


This is from the book Hawaii: the Royal Legacy by Allen Seiden

[Keanu]

If you can't change the past, why not support the future? Learn from the mistakes our leaders made in the past and apply it to your wants for the future.

This comment reminds me of a line from Ziggy Marley's "Tomorrow People" which notes "If you don't know your past, you don't know your future". I think it is important for us to guard the torch of truth and make sure that it is never extinguished.We owe that much to both our Kupuna and our Keiki. Hawaii was ILLEGALLY annexed to the U.S. I think it is important for Hawaiians such as myself to expose the hypocrisy of the U.S. government when the constitutionality of Hawaiian programs are put under the microscope of the U.S judicial system. I'd love for the U.S. Supreme Court to have to rule on the constitutionality of Hawaii's annexation to the U.S. :D

[Keanu]

Two years after his release he came to view annexation by the US as preferable to the Republic. He later became an Republican and the Hawaiian rep. to Congress


This is from the book Hawaii: the Royal Legacy by Allen Seiden

Kuhio continued to fight for Hawaiian Independence untill he became frustrated with the ineffectiveness of the Independent Home Rule Party. Realizing he could do more for his people as a Republican delegate, that is the role he chose. Had there been other options, he would not have been warm to annexation.

[alohabear]

This comment reminds me of a line from Ziggy Marley's "Tomorrow People" which notes "If you don't know your past, you don't know your future". I think it is important for us to guard the torch of truth and make sure that it is never extinguished.We owe that much to both our Kupuna and our Keiki. Hawaii was ILLEGALLY annexed to the U.S. I think it is important for Hawaiians such as myself to expose the hypocrisy of the U.S. government when the constitutionality of Hawaiian programs are put under the microscope of the U.S judicial system. I'd love for the U.S. Supreme Court to have to rule on the constitutionality of Hawaii's annexation to the U.S. :DKinda like my Japanese people that was thrown in camps during WWII. More U.S. government hypocrisy. Germans weren't put in camps, and had land taken away. My grandfather almost went just because he was a leader in the church.

[Deep Thought]

Never thought I'd quote myself....
Court decisions aside, in a country where, at least on paper, racial discrimination is prohibited is it desirable to allow exceptions based on historic deprivation/discrimination?
Anyone care to field this? It's really easy to talk about what is wrong in the past. Figuring out what is right for the future is far more interesting though.

[buzz1941]

This comment reminds me of a line from Ziggy Marley's "Tomorrow People" which notes "If you don't know your past, you don't know your future".

BTW, that rough notion isn't exactly original with Ziggy Marley. Try George Santayana.

But in this case, try Orwell: "He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls the present, controls the past."

[timkona]

It's been 10 or more posts in a row, and not one person is trying to explain or justify why Hawaiians simply can't compete in the modern world and therefore need specialized entitlement programs, such as those that the good representative is trying to pass.

I'm starting to think that Mr. Abercrombie is the ONLY man in Hawaii who thinks Hawaiians are woefully incapable of making it on their own merit. How does this guy continue to get elected? How come Hawaiians do not scream at him for assuming that they simply can't cut it?

And then there are the idiots who say that if you give land to Hawaiians, they will just sell it off to the malahini. Well that's not the truth either. Not a single Hawaiian in South Kona is selling their house or land.

Maybe it's me, and I'm just not seeing the whole picture. Perhaps Abercrombie is correct, and Hawaiians are truly not capable. In order to be a good liberal, it is essential to identify with inferiority at some level. But how many people would WANT to have the label of inability thrust upon them?

It's a crazy world.

[buzz1941]

I don't think that it's because Abercrombie believes Hawaiians are not capable. In my converstaions with him, it's because he's trying to make good a historic wrong and give Hawaiians a level playing field. He believes he's doing the Right Thing.

It boils down to legalisms. Are Hawaiians to be a separate racial, cultural and governmental community, like the Many Tribes, or an assimilated ethnic/racial group, like blacks or Irish or Italians or Japanese or whoever?

[Lei K]

Tim, just a question out of pure curiosity. Do you think Native Americans deserve special rights and recognition or do you think it should be a level playing field with them as well?

[timkona]

I'm just not much of a racist, Lei. I don't see in color or ethnicity very well. Man's conquest of man is the history of the world. We cannot turn back the clock.

Today's reservations are cleaning up on the gambling, cigarettes, gasoline, alcohol trade. Double standards are part of what create animosity and resentments.

As time goes by, I think future generations will mingle and intermix to a point where even the Indian casinos will find themselves under attack for special consideration. It is not in the best interest of the future to establish additional race based laws with which to separate the folks. Folks is Folks.

[TuNnL]

Talk about a fragmented, convoluted response. It’s a yes or no question, Tim. Stop being so condescending. :p

[alohabear]

No one should have special rights. If you give one group then give them all . How about Japanese interns, relatives of former slaves, Eskimos! Where does it end?

[timkona]

In deference to TunnL

No to special rights
Yes to a level playing field

I guess it was No/Yes question, which is why it was not a simple question.

Apology accepted.

[Keanu]

Never thought I'd quote myself....

Anyone care to field this? It's really easy to talk about what is wrong in the past. Figuring out what is right for the future is far more interesting though.

I didn't address your initial question because not only do I object to the inclusion of the word "desirable" but I think the question itself is irrelevent as it relates to Hawaiians only programs.

[Keanu]

But in this case, try Orwell: "He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls the present, controls the past."

Very befitting piece, thanks for sharing. :)

[Keanu]

No one should have special rights. If you give one group then give them all . How about Japanese interns, relatives of former slaves, Eskimos! Where does it end?

Your argument is flawed and your comments about slaves and Eskimos, impertinent to the discussion.

Japanese interns received their apology as well as $20,000 in reparation from the U.S. Government. Eskimos receive Oil money. Hawaiians received nothing but the theft of their culture and their lands. Hawaiian programs are, at the very least, a form of reparation.

[Keanu]

No to special rights
Yes to a level playing field



Nice oxymoronic statement there timmy.

[TuNnL]

Tune your sets to C-SPAN, peeps. Today we find out (http://honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070328/NEWS21/703280387/1001) how all this played out. :)

[Deep Thought]

I didn't address your initial question because not only do I object to the inclusion of the word "desirable" but I think the question itself is irrelevent as it relates to Hawaiians only programs.

How is it irrelevant? As far as the rest of the United States is concerned the question itself is about exceptions to Runyon. I'm not saying that the lands held in trust (I might add, irresponsibly) for the Hawaiian people should not benefit Hawaiians, they should. But there has got to be a way to get Runyon out of the discussion. In any case the Overthrow resembles more closely Texas than First Nations, and you don't see people asking for privileges and entitlements for the original Mexican inhabitants.

How can you not address the issue of whether or not the current approach to Hawaiian entitlement includes racial discrimination? Many people suffered horribly and some even died to get racial discrimination out of the law, how can their sacrifice be so casually dismissed?

[alohabear]

Your argument is flawed and your comments about slaves and Eskimos, impertinent to the discussion.

Japanese interns received their apology as well as $20,000 in reparation from the U.S. Government. Eskimos receive Oil money. Hawaiians received nothing but the theft of their culture and their lands. Hawaiian programs are, at the very least, a form of reparation.$20,000 in reparation, BIG deal! Did you know how much land was taken away from the Japanese interns?

Japanese Americans owned 12,726 acres of farmland in California. In 1942, 110,000 Japanese Americans living on the West Coast of the United States were relocated to ten internment camps. It took another forty years for the US government to recognize the violations of this population's constitutional rights.When you think about it, ALL the races at the time(of the overthrow) were part of the Kingdom, so shouldn't we ALL benefit from the Goverment?

[joshuatree]

What ever happened to the 40 acres and a mule owed to the freed black slaves? :D

[alohabear]

Hawaiians received nothing but the theft of their cultureCulture is never stolen. It is lost and something lost can always be found and brought back. The government can't do that, only the PEOPLE can.

What I never hear is that no one ever says that Kamehameha and the other Alii made a BIG mistake letting the first "visitors" to the islands stay. Admit it was the wrong thing to do. That by doing that, the Alii doomed the Kanaka Maoli and it's future. if Hawaii was kept "pure" like Japan, it would be a different Hawaii today. They had the numbers to send back any unwanted visitors to the islands , but instead gave them land to teach the people about GOD. Rejecting their culture, over Christianity , giving land for guns and cannons to defeat the enemy. All for power. Now the keiki of the land must fight for rights they claim they deserve,but would have been different if the King said you can visit,but go home.

[Keanu]

How is it irrelevant? As far as the rest of the United States is concerned the question itself is about exceptions to Runyon. I'm not saying that the lands held in trust (I might add, irresponsibly) for the Hawaiian people should not benefit Hawaiians, they should. But there has got to be a way to get Runyon out of the discussion. In any case the Overthrow resembles more closely Texas than First Nations, and you don't see people asking for privileges and entitlements for the original Mexican inhabitants.

How can you not address the issue of whether or not the current approach to Hawaiian entitlement includes racial discrimination? Many people suffered horribly and some even died to get racial discrimination out of the law, how can their sacrifice be so casually dismissed?

So now you're trying to tell me that Runyon Vs. mccrary is relevent to the Hawaiians Homes Commision Act and Kamehameha Schools? How so?

You are comparing apples to oranges and I find it absurd that you lack the ability to realize the differences between Hawaiian programs and issues such as Runyon vs mccrary.Both the Hawaiian Homes program and Kamehameha Schools were in effect long before these "civil issues" became issues at all. Furthermore, racism is a WASP ideaology.

[TuNnL]

Well, it looks like Rep. Abercrombie can celebrate a victory (http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=5599) for now. The second time proved to be a charm. But the measure will surely face vigorous debate again, when the bill passes over to the U.S. Senate for consideration. ;)

[Deep Thought]

So now you're trying to tell me that Runyon Vs. mccrary is relevent to the Hawaiians Homes Commision Act and Kamehameha Schools? How so?

You are comparing apples to oranges and I find it absurd that you lack the ability to realize the differences between Hawaiian programs and issues such as Runyon vs mccrary.Both the Hawaiian Homes program and Kamehameha Schools were in effect long before these "civil issues" became issues at all. Furthermore, racism is a WASP ideaology.

Apples and oranges indeed. It is absolutely relevant to the discussion. The "civil issues" you assert weren't issues were definitely issues to people who suffered from legal discrimination. Do you think that blacks, asians, Jewish, Poles, and Irish people (and a bunch of others no doubt) embraced their limited prospects for advancement? Do you propose that we totally ignore the Hawaii Dem Revolution that threw the plantation owners and Hawaiians out on their okoles for practicing legal racism? Or the tactics employed by plantations (and lunas, that's right Portugese and Hawaiian) to ensure that their supply of cheap workers stayed cheap?

Draw the line in the sand that differentiates a school that exclusively admits caucasians, or WASPs as you like to call them, and Kamehameha Schools, which stipulates a preferential policy (though reality shows us that preferential means ONLY Hawaiians) toward Hawaiians. I think you'll find that it's pretty arbitrary. Much the same could be made of Hawaiian programs that utilize State money.

I know it may not seem like it, but I DON'T oppose Hawaiian programs and Hawaiian education. It is governmental participation and racial exclusivity, and the absence of meaningful discussion within the Hawaiian community about the gravity of the resulting consequences, that makes it so relevant to discuss racism in the context of Hawaiian entitlements, education, and programs.

[waioli kai]

."I urge my colleagues to oppose this rule so that this legislation can be passed in a clear, constitutional way that makes it transparent to the courts, that this is not a back-door attempt to lay the groundwork for other legislation to confer tribal status on the native Hawaiian people," Republican Rep. Pete Sessions of Dallas said. U.S. House Approves Loans For Hawaiian Housing http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17846000/

So many Texans pissed off that the nation which their forebearers joined in 1845 had not the immoral fiber as did Texans to have effectively exterminated all the peoples of the lands expropriated by their citizens, governments and militias! .... And just to make sure no one gets an upper hand on US thieves and murderers here's Dallas Texas' own Rep. Pete Sessions expressing his party's fears that native people of Hawaii are engaging in "a back-door attempt to lay the groundwork for other legislation to confer tribal status on the native Hawaiian people." "What an incredible horror and terror it would be to recognize surviving native peoples anywhere under U.S. jurisdiction! Native peoples of Tejas? Are you kidding? They are dead and forgotten more than century ago and who misses them? No one! Certainly not us real Texans!! "

[Keanu]

Apples and oranges indeed. It is absolutely relevant to the discussion. The "civil issues" you assert weren't issues were definitely issues to people who suffered from legal discrimination. Do you think that blacks, asians, Jewish, Poles, and Irish people (and a bunch of others no doubt) embraced their limited prospects for advancement?

These issues you reference pertain to discrimination by whites against minorities. Like I mentioned earlier, racism is a WASP ideology. As to your question, some have, some haven't


Do you propose that we totally ignore the Hawaii Dem Revolution that threw the plantation owners and Hawaiians out on their okoles for practicing legal racism? Or the tactics employed by plantations (and lunas, that's right Portugese and Hawaiian) to ensure that their supply of cheap workers stayed cheap?

The Democratic Revolution of 1954 was a result of the politics of resentment, resentment of the "Big 5" companies, not of so called "racist" Hawaiians.


Draw the line in the sand that differentiates a school that exclusively admits caucasians, or WASPs as you like to call them, and Kamehameha Schools, which stipulates a preferential policy (though reality shows us that preferential means ONLY Hawaiians) toward Hawaiians. I think you'll find that it's pretty arbitrary. Much the same could be made of Hawaiian programs that utilize State money.

When Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop bequeathed part of her estate to the erect the foundation of the Kamehameha schools, her intent was to establish institutions which would be of lasting benefit to her country. The princess saw the rapid diminution of the Hawaiian people going on decade after decade and felt it was largely the result of their ignorance. She realized that Hawaiians would have to compete with the other nationalities; and so, in order that her own people might have the opportunity for fitting themselves for such competition, these schools were provided for. Pauahi envisoned a learning institution that would help her people survive an ever changing Hawai'i.These are not "racist" ambitions.

The Civil rights act of 1866, cited in Runyon vs. McCrary, was passed to implement the protection of the 13th amendment, which officially abolished slavery. The 1866 statute granted nonwhites, specifically the recently freed slaves,the same right to make and enforce contracts as was enjoyed by white citizens. This statute was an affirmative action statute, designed to provide benefits to nonwhites that they had been long denied. The 1866 statute granted nonwhites -- specifically the recently freed slaves -- the same right to make and enforce contracts "as is enjoyed by white citizens." In other words, by its terms, it granted nothing at all to white citizens.

Anybody with 1/100 Hawaiian blood quantum qualifies for enrollment at the Kamehameha schools. Only a fool would view the admission policy as racist or try to connect the intent of Pauahi to that of those who ran schools denying admission to African Americans.


I know it may not seem like it, but I DON'T oppose Hawaiian programs and Hawaiian education. It is governmental participation and racial exclusivity, and the absence of meaningful discussion within the Hawaiian community about the gravity of the resulting consequences, that makes it so relevant to discuss racism in the context of Hawaiian entitlements, education, and programs.

The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act, enacted by Congress in 1920, was adopted as article X11 of the Hawaii State constitution. Your views on the matter are irrelevant

[Deep Thought]

These issues you reference pertain to discrimination by whites against minorities. Like I mentioned earlier, racism is a WASP ideology.
Tell that to the military couple that got beaten up out at Waikele.


The Democratic Revolution of 1954 was a result of the politics of resentment, resentment of the "Big 5" companies, not of so called "racist" Hawaiians.


It's just not that easy to wash that sort of dirt off your hands. Hawaiians were accomplices whether willing or no.


Pauahi envisoned a learning institution that would help her people survive an ever changing Hawai'i.These are not "racist" ambitions.

Intent and result often differ greatly. When they do serious discussion is merited.


Anybody with 1/100 Hawaiian blood quantum qualifies for enrollment at the Kamehameha schools. Only a fool would view the admission policy as racist or try to connect the intent of Pauahi to that of those who ran schools denying admission to African Americans.

Again, intent and result often differ greatly. Coincidentally the vast majority African Americans are prohibited from attending Kamehameha Schools by its admissions policy.


The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act, enacted by Congress in 1920, was adopted as article X11 of the Hawaii State constitution. Your views on the matter are irrelevant

HHCA was enacted before the Civil Rights movement and official recognition that codified and legalized racism was out of sync with the Constitution. How many times do you intend to tell me my views are irrelevant? As a lifelong non-Native resident of Hawaii I am active in the community and have a serious stake in Hawaii's future. As my concerns are related to this very dicey topic, if they can't be addressed since they are "irrelevant" then logically I have to choose which is the lesser evil, support Hawaiian programs and potentially support racism, or don't take any chances and get rid of the programs and exemptions. I AM one of the people you have to convince and dismissing my concerns as "irrelevant" doesn't do that very well. I do you the respect of not dismissing your assertions off-hand, I'd appreciate the same.

[alohabear]

Again, intent and result often differ greatly. Coincidentally the vast majority African Americans are prohibited from attending Kamehameha Schools by its admissions policy
Coincidentally the vast majority of Hawaiians are prohibited from attending Kamehameha Schools by its admissions policy because they don't want to address "special needs" students. Being an elitist to your own kind is the WORSE kind of prejudice. Pauahi envisioned a learning institution that would help ALL her people survive an ever changing Hawai'i. Not just the ones who past a test and are then "hand picked" to attend. AUWE! Pauahi is rolling in her grave! Shame on KSBE for not educating ALL the Kanaka Maoli.

[waioli kai]

Coincidentally the vast majority of Hawaiians are prohibited from attending Kamehameha Schools by its admissions policy because they don't want to address "special needs" students. Being an elitist to your own kind is the WORSE kind of prejudice. Pauahi envisioned a learning institution that would help ALL her people survive an ever changing Hawai'i. Not just the ones who past a test and are then "hand picked" to attend. AUWE! Pauahi is rolling in her grave! Shame on KSBE for not educating ALL the Kanaka Maoli.

Blame KSBE but don't blame the State or the Feds who squander billion$ and trillion$ and won't be satisfied until the last remaining shred of anything not thoroughly adulterated by cultureless "America" is destroyed.

[Keanu]

Tell that to the military couple that got beaten up out at Waikele.

A vehicle mishap was the trigger of that unfortunate event, not racism.


It's just not that easy to wash that sort of dirt off your hands. Hawaiians were accomplices whether willing or no.

Perhaps if you are applying blame to Ka'ahumanu who broke Kapu or the Monarchs who sold Hawaiian land to enterprsing foreigners after the Mahele but Maka'ainana who lived during the time of the Democratic revolution were not to blame for the revolution itself, as you pointed out. In fact, the first speaker of the Hawaii Territory House of Representatives directly following the Democratic Revolution was himself a Native Hawaiian.


Intent and result often differ greatly. When they do serious discussion is merited.

Your perspective differ greatly from mine.


Again, intent and result often differ greatly. Coincidentally the vast majority African Americans are prohibited from attending Kamehameha Schools by its admissions policy.

And yet no African American has tried to challenge the admission policy of the Kamehameha Schools. Why is that? only whitey likes to have a share of what is not his.


HHCA was enacted before the Civil Rights movement and official recognition that codified and legalized racism was out of sync with the Constitution. How many times do you intend to tell me my views are irrelevant? As a lifelong non-Native resident of Hawaii I am active in the community and have a serious stake in Hawaii's future. As my concerns are related to this very dicey topic, if they can't be addressed since they are "irrelevant" then logically I have to choose which is the lesser evil, support Hawaiian programs and potentially support racism, or don't take any chances and get rid of the programs and exemptions. I AM one of the people you have to convince and dismissing my concerns as "irrelevant" doesn't do that very well. I do you the respect of not dismissing your assertions off-hand, I'd appreciate the same.

The fact that the HHCA was enacted before the Civil Rights movement is a non issue.The Civil Rights movement, which was aimed at abolishing racisim against AFRICAN AMERICANS by WASP's, was and is primarily a black and white issue. Civil Rights laws were authored to protect minorities aginst discrimination by whites. I find it extremely absurd that now WASP's try to link their foolish and selfish battle against Hawaiian entitlement programs and entities such as the Kamehameha Schools to that of African Americans fighting for acceptance in the South during the movement, how utterly ridiculous! I am a lifelong Native son, also active in the community and I too have a serious stake in the future of these islands.Excuse me if I don't put as much weight on your concerns as you. They are definitely misguided to say the least. Fwiw, I don't have to convince you of anything. Programs for my people have long been in place, whether or not you view them as unconstitutional is not really important to me. You seem to lack the ability to see things clearly, therefor, I won't waste my time.

[waioli kai]

.Keanu: " The Civil Rights movement, which was aimed at abolishing racisim against AFRICAN AMERICANS by WASP's, was and is primarily a black and white issue. Civil Rights laws were authored to protect minorities aginst discrimination by whites. I find it extremely absurd that now WASP's try to link their foolish and selfish battle against Hawaiian entitlement programs and entities such as the Kamehameha Schools to that of African Americans fighting for acceptance in the South during the movement, how utterly ridiculous! "

Deep prejudice and deep contradiction are foundations to WASP American ideologies and arguments. It is indeed utterly ridiculous for WASP Americans to cloak themselves in their self-righteous hypocrisy then preach to the world as if they are here to save the world from all that is unholy.

[Leo Lakio]

Question to those participating in this discussion:

Do you actually mean to limit some of your comments to only "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants," as that is what WASP means? Perhaps the acronym doesn't cover all of those you mean to include - but just sounds more cautiously "correct" than what you really want to say.

[Keanu]

Question to those participating in this discussion:

Do you actually mean to limit some of your comments to only "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants," as that is what WASP means? Perhaps the acronym doesn't cover all of those you mean to include - but just sounds more cautiously "correct" than what you really want to say.


;)

I don't want to paint with too broad a brush.

[timkona]

diminution of the Hawaiian people going on decade after decade and felt it was largely the result of their ignorance.

A few months ago I read something that talked of test scores and educational achievement being lower among Hawaiians than other students in public school system. Perhaps some things never change. Ignorance is most often associated with a resistance to change. Kamehameha was the last true visionary Hawaiian. The modern Hawaiian is convinced that the past is much better than the future. That is the essence of the reason for low academic achievement. And that defeatist mentality is quite prevalent in island culture today.

Being born in the islands would seem a natural advantage in business based on connections and who you know or who you grew up with. Should be easy for folks that are born here to make a success of any business they choose.

Lots of folks on this thread will argue for favortism towards this group or that group. But you never hear the same folks explaining what it is, precisely, that makes a group inferior. Instead, they keep pointing the finger at others to blame for their own failures.

You either have to admit that Hawaiians (or other groups) are naturally inferior, or you have to abandon the notion of special treatment based upon some kind of inferiority. You can't have it both ways. The best part is that there are lots of examples of successful Hawaiians right here in my own neighborhood. Homeowners, with good jobs, sober lives, no rap sheet, whose children do well in school, etc, etc.

Now please, somebody explain to me what it is, precisely, that makes Hawaiians unable to compete. The Princess saw it. Keanu clearly sees it. Mr. Abercrombie sees it. I want to know what IT is. And I'm open minded enough to listen, and hear, what the explanation could be.

Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?

[Keanu]

diminution of the Hawaiian people going on decade after decade and felt it was largely the result of their ignorance.

A few months ago I read something that talked of test scores and educational achievement being lower among Hawaiians than other students in public school system. Perhaps some things never change. Ignorance is most often associated with a resistance to change. Kamehameha was the last true visionary Hawaiian. The modern Hawaiian is convinced that the past is much better than the future. That is the essence of the reason for low academic achievement. And that defeatist mentality is quite prevalent in island culture today.

Being born in the islands would seem a natural advantage in business based on connections and who you know or who you grew up with. Should be easy for folks that are born here to make a success of any business they choose.

Lots of folks on this thread will argue for favortism towards this group or that group. But you never hear the same folks explaining what it is, precisely, that makes a group inferior. Instead, they keep pointing the finger at others to blame for their own failures.

You either have to admit that Hawaiians (or other groups) are naturally inferior, or you have to abandon the notion of special treatment based upon some kind of inferiority. You can't have it both ways. The best part is that there are lots of examples of successful Hawaiians right here in my own neighborhood. Homeowners, with good jobs, sober lives, no rap sheet, whose children do well in school, etc, etc.

Now please, somebody explain to me what it is, precisely, that makes Hawaiians unable to compete. The Princess saw it. Keanu clearly sees it. Mr. Abercrombie sees it. I want to know what IT is. And I'm open minded enough to listen, and hear, what the explanation could be.

Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?


Tim, as usual, you are completely missing the point here. Why am I not surprised?

Here's a link for you to try.....
Neil.Abercrombie@mail.house.gov <Neil.Abercrombie@mail.house.gov>

[timkona]

I may be missing the point, as I stated at the end of my last post. But don't let that be a enough of a reason to try to explain IT to me logically.

Rather than belittle me for my ignorance, perhaps you could be nice enough to enlighten me as to what IT is that makes Hawaiians naturally unable to compete. Cuz I just don't see it like that. I may be missing the point, so please, what is the point?

[Keanu]

I may be missing the point, as I stated at the end of my last post. But don't let that be a enough of a reason to try to explain IT to me logically.

Tim, you are incorrigible. I may be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt but I won't hold my breath.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to the discussion if you shared your thoughts on what should be done with Hawaiian Home Lands and the Kamehemeha Schools?

[timkona]

Well Keanu, I'm just not much of a racist. Sorry about that. I don't see in color very well. That is why I am so curious to find out what IT is about Hawaiians that Mr. Abercrombie perceives as making them unable to compete fairly in the modern world. You know the answer (I think) but for some reason you won't tell me.

But for some reason, you are withholding the explanation. Please tell me.

Or just bob and weave, bob and weave, move your feet, sidestep, till I give up and go away.

[Keanu]

Well Keanu, I'm just not much of a racist. Sorry about that. I don't see in color very well. That is why I am so curious to find out what IT is about Hawaiians that Mr. Abercrombie perceives as making them unable to compete fairly in the modern world. You know the answer (I think) but for some reason you won't tell me.

But for some reason, you are withholding the explanation. Please tell me.

Or just bob and weave, bob and weave, move your feet, sidestep, till I give up and go away.

I'll explain after you share your thoughts on what you'd like to see done with the Hawaiian Homes program and the Kamehameha Schools.

[Leo Lakio]

Kamehameha was the last true visionary Hawaiian.How have you been able to measure this against all kanaka since his day?Now please, somebody explain to me what it is, precisely, that makes Hawaiians unable to compete.Not until you tell us when you stopped beating your wife. (And you are smart enough to know exactly what I mean by that question.)

[buzz1941]

Kamehameha was the last true visionary Hawaiian. The modern Hawaiian is convinced that the past is much better than the future.

Kamehameha I was quite an amazing fellow. Chances are there would be no Hawaiian culture today if Kamehameha hadn't been smarter than everyone around him, including the haoles. But the above is sort of a blanket statement.

OK, here's a racist statement:

Japanese-Americans are near-sighted and have buck teeth.

Of course, there are Japanese-Americans who are near-sighted and some have buck teeth, and some might even have both, but this statement is obviously a catch-all, and more than that, stupid, because the facts get in the way of the implication.

But this is also a racist statement, and you hear it quite often:

No Japanese-American committed espionage (or sabotage or treason) during World War II.

Beyond the fact that it's simply not true, the statement is patronizing, as it ascribes a blanket inability to do something to an entire ethnic group.

There are incapable Hawaiians. There are absolutely capable Hawaiians as well. Most of them, actually.

[timkona]

I'm not much of a racist, as I stated already. So if you want to use race as a factor in some form of separation, choice, or entitlement decision, then I'm simply not for it.

Kam School
HHL
Affirmative Action
Japanese Chamber of Commerce (or any other race for that matter)
Black Congressional Caucus
(There are a kajillion examples of this in America)

If you turn it around, and insert the word White, or Caucasian, it becomes instantly offensive to many people. I would disagree with that also. Therein lies the fundamental rub with me.

If we separate society based on criteria as whimsical as the color of one's skin, or the pedigree of somebody's mother and father, then how far are we from Hitler's version of achieving eugenic perfection?

I can sympathize with folks who confuse cultural pride and identity with the conflicting notion of egotistical expectations of entitlement. And I hold no false hope of changing anybody's mind on racism, most especially those steeped in the traditions of such vile behavior.

When the sting of racism touches my life, as it sometimes can in Hawaii, I simply brush it off, while inside my heart breaks just a little in sympathy for the hopelessly ignorant.

[Keanu]

I'm not much of a racist, as I stated already. So if you want to use race as a factor in some form of separation, choice, or entitlement decision, then I'm simply not for it.

Kam School
HHL
Affirmative Action
Japanese Chamber of Commerce (or any other race for that matter)
Black Congressional Caucus
(There are a kajillion examples of this in America)

If you turn it around, and insert the word White, or Caucasian, it becomes instantly offensive to many people. I would disagree with that also. Therein lies the fundamental rub with me.

If we separate society based on criteria as whimsical as the color of one's skin, or the pedigree of somebody's mother and father, then how far are we from Hitler's version of achieving eugenic perfection?

I can sympathize with folks who confuse cultural pride and identity with the conflicting notion of egotistical expectations of entitlement. And I hold no false hope of changing anybody's mind on racism, most especially those steeped in the traditions of such vile behavior.

When the sting of racism touches my life, as it sometimes can in Hawaii, I simply brush it off, while inside my heart breaks just a little in sympathy for the hopelessly ignorant.

You haven't answered my question. What would YOU propose be done with all the land currently under the jurisdiction of the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands and what would YOU propose be done with the Kamehameha Schools admission policy?

Are you gonna tell me "or just bob and weave, bob and weave, move your feet, sidestep, till I give up and go away"? I'm looking for answers here, not drivel.

[timkona]

Kam Schools should eliminate the race policy, and start teaching the children of Hawaii, which of course can include any race. I believe the Princess said something about the poor also. (correct me if I'm wrong)

HHL is clearly a violation of the Federal Fair Housing Laws. I would choose to give the land to the poor folks again, of any race. A bureaucracy in Hawaii as bloated as HHL would be impossible to abolish without some serious sacrifices on the part of many folks. But don't let my sympathy for the poor fool you into believing that I am a liberal in any way. :D jk

Economic criteria is one way to play the race card. If Mr. Abercrombie's position regarding Hawaiian's inability to compete is in fact a correct assumption, then it seems to me that the poor folks being helped could possibly comprise many Hawaiians, and their mixed bag progeny, without the sticky question of blood quantum.

Keanu, your civility in this discussion is greatly appreciated. And now that I have answered those 2 crucial questions, would you please help me to understand Mr. Abercrombie's position a little better.

[Deep Thought]

You haven't answered my question. What would YOU propose be done with all the land currently under the jurisdiction of the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands
Not sure about the mechanics, but if it were transferred to the control of a Native Hawaiian charitable corporation/institution of some sort then at least it would be actually under Hawaiian control. If it's Hawaiian lands, shouldn't Hawaiians control it?
and what would YOU propose be done with the Kamehameha Schools admission policy?
Abolish tuition fees entirely and make every student a scholarship student. The nice thing about charity is that you can give it to whoever you damned well feel like. Problems only arise when services are charged for since then a service is being provided that some people are not ALLOWED to pay for. As long as you're giving it away the discretion as to whom you give it to is largely up to you. KS is eminently well provided monetarily to do this, and with the really bad trustees out KS should be able to continue doing so ad infinitum.

[Keanu]

I'm not much of a racist, as I stated already. So if you want to use race as a factor in some form of separation, choice, or entitlement decision, then I'm simply not for it.

Kam School
HHL
Affirmative Action
Japanese Chamber of Commerce (or any other race for that matter)
Black Congressional Caucus
(There are a kajillion examples of this in America)

If you turn it around, and insert the word White, or Caucasian, it becomes instantly offensive to many people. I would disagree with that also. Therein lies the fundamental rub with me.

If we separate society based on criteria as whimsical as the color of one's skin, or the pedigree of somebody's mother and father, then how far are we from Hitler's version of achieving eugenic perfection?

I can sympathize with folks who confuse cultural pride and identity with the conflicting notion of egotistical expectations of entitlement. And I hold no false hope of changing anybody's mind on racism, most especially those steeped in the traditions of such vile behavior.

When the sting of racism touches my life, as it sometimes can in Hawaii, I simply brush it off, while inside my heart breaks just a little in sympathy for the hopelessly ignorant.

Kamehameha was Hawaiian, not Chinese so I would appreciate it very much if you refer to the Schools that bears his name as “Kamehameha” rather than “Kam”.

Now, I have to admit that I am usually a good judge of character. While I believe you may be an arrogant, obnoxious, and abrassive individual, I do not believe you are racist. You are however, misguided on these issues.

I am preparing my rebuttal and will include the answer you seek therein.

Once I gather my backround information, I will respond.

[Keanu]

Not sure about the mechanics, but if it were transferred to the control of a Native Hawaiian charitable corporation/institution of some sort then at least it would be actually under Hawaiian control. If it's Hawaiian lands, shouldn't Hawaiians control it?

This is actually a good suggestion but one that isn't feasible without both State Legislative and U.S Congressional help.



Abolish tuition fees entirely and make every student a scholarship student. The nice thing about charity is that you can give it to whoever you damned well feel like. Problems only arise when services are charged for since then a service is being provided that some people are not ALLOWED to pay for. As long as you're giving it away the discretion as to whom you give it to is largely up to you. KS is eminently well provided monetarily to do this, and with the really bad trustees out KS should be able to continue doing so ad infinitum.

This is another good suggestion, and one of a couple of ways that Kamehameha may keep its enrollment "Hawaiian".

Mahalo for your thoughts. :)

[buzz1941]

This is another good suggestion, and one of a couple of ways that Kamehameha may keep its enrollment "Hawaiian".


The Kamehameha Schools can also forfeit its 501c3 tax status and become truly private. Then the Feds would have no leverage.

[timkona]

I can't wait for a rebuttal that justifies racism on some level. This is gonna be good. Ask Mr. Abercrombie. I tried, and received no response from my email.

People often perceive arrogance, or obnoxiousness, when the views presented by others conflict with beliefs that are held close to the heart.

Abrasiveness is just another way of saying "kill the messenger". The whole idea behind "kill the messenger" is rooted in defiant rejection of facts or truth.

[TuNnL]

The whole idea behind "kill the messenger" is rooted in defiant rejection of facts or truth.Fact: The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act of 1921 was passed... to enable native Hawaiians to return to their lands in order to fully support self-sufficiency for native Hawaiians and the self-determination of native Hawaiians ... and the preservation of the values, traditions, and culture of native Hawaiians.

Fact: The principal purposes of this Act include but are not limited to:


Establishing a permanent land base for the benefit and use of native Hawaiians, upon which they may live, farm, ranch, and otherwise engage in commercial or industrial or any other activities...

Placing native Hawaiians on the lands set aside under this Act in a prompt and efficient manner and assuring long-term tenancy to beneficiaries of this Act and their successors

Preventing alienation of the fee title to the lands set aside under this Act so that these lands will always be held in trust for continued use by native Hawaiians in perpetuity;


If you are saying that the federal government has satisfied its end of its responsibilities tied to this 86-year-old U.S. Congressional law, I think most educated on the issue would strongly disagree. If you are saying this law is invalid Tim, then why haven’t you or any of your like-minded friends filed a lawsuit to repeal it?

Truth: Abercrombie is simply fulfilling his duty to support the laws that specifically benefit his constituency. Let’s keep the discussion relevant to the topic, Tim, instead of your insistency on turning every single topic on this board into an argument about racism. :(

[waioli kai]

.==137880 --No to special rights
Yes to a level playing field. =="Yes to a level playing field." Great!! Let's start with doing away with corporate America's inherited wealth assurances! Everybody is born equal, has equal access to health care, education, financing, and so on.

.== L Lakio "Question to those participating in this discussion:

"Do you actually mean to limit some of your comments to only "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants," as that is what WASP means? Perhaps the acronym doesn't cover all of those you mean to include - but just sounds more cautiously "correct" than what you really want to say."I really mean to say capitalUSts, fascUSts, corporatUSt$, corruptionUSt$, USraeli, militarUSts, terrorUSt$ American$-Brit$ colonialUSt$ elitUSt$ ..... , but, since the meaning of the acronym WASP is in varying degrees common to all these elitUSt ideologies and criminals toward humanity, and, since WASP is generally understood by most people possessing any intellectual accounts worthy an exchange rate, using "WASP" in a brief discussion provides adequate coverage without pushing too many buttons. Most WASP don't attempt to deny they are WASP until WASP is associated with their genocidal history and roots.

.== alohabear --Culture is never stolen. It is lost and something lost can always be found and brought back. --Of course culture is never stolen. Someone steals my red hair and my guitar doesn't make her or him a red-haired musician.

When it comes to discussing cultures it is most interesting to compare the "lost (can always be found and brought back (?!!?))" cultures of the Americas and the Pacific with what some might call 'American culture', although I personally believe that the defining attribute of what today is deemed to be "American" is the near absolute lack of culture.....although using the following context (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Culture) one might be lead to believe that culture is what "American " is all about:
== In practice, culture refered to elite goods and activities such as haute cuisine, high fashion or haute couture, museum-caliber art and classical music, and the word cultured to refer to people who know about, and take part in, these activities.

People who use "culture" in this way tend not to use it in the plural. They believe that there are not distinct cultures, each with their own internal logic and values, but rather only a single standard of refinement to which all groups are held accountable. Thus people with different customs from someone who believes themselves to be cultured are not usually understood as "having a different culture"; they are understood as being "uncultured". People lacking "culture" often seemed more "natural," and observers often defended (or criticized) elements of high culture for repressing "human nature". ==

[timkona]

The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act of 1921 was passed... to enable native Hawaiians to return to their lands in order to fully support self-sufficiency for native Hawaiians and the self-determination of native Hawaiians ... and the preservation of the values, traditions, and culture of native Hawaiians.

When trying to preserve a culture, I would not depend upon the government to help me. Perhaps Grandma and Grandpa are the best guardians of culture.

The KING owned the land in Hawaii. Not the commoners. Perhaps the commoners feel the land is theirs now that the monarchy is gone. Lucky for me, and my neighbors, bought our land from the monarchy.

I'm glad that HHL has worked in a "prompt and efficient manner" to benefit Hawaiians. :cool:

I don't turn every thread into an argument about racism. When the practitioners of this vile behavior, such as Mr. Abercrombie et al, bring it to the forefront, I will not leave it alone.

And yet, I know many Hawaiians who own their homes, without any help from some government entitlement program. So I will propose the question again.....

What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world? Mr. Abercrombie knows the answer, but won't return my email. Keanu knows, but won't say. I have a feeling Waioli Kai knows. And perhaps even TuNnL knows.

[Keanu]

People often perceive arrogance, or obnoxiousness, when the views presented by others conflict with beliefs that are held close to the heart.

I disagree. Some people, like myself, just have no problem calling a spade a spade.


Abrasiveness is just another way of saying "kill the messenger". The whole idea behind "kill the messenger" is rooted in defiant rejection of facts or truth.

I'm gonna have to diasagree with you here as well. At least as it relates to the the context of this discussion being as though most of your posts seem to lack all semblance of "facts or truth".

[Keanu]

The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act of 1921 was passed... to enable native Hawaiians to return to their lands in order to fully support self-sufficiency for native Hawaiians and the self-determination of native Hawaiians ... and the preservation of the values, traditions, and culture of native Hawaiians.

When trying to preserve a culture, I would not depend upon the government to help me. Perhaps Grandma and Grandpa are the best guardians of culture.

The KING owned the land in Hawaii. Not the commoners. Perhaps the commoners feel the land is theirs now that the monarchy is gone. Lucky for me, and my neighbors, bought our land from the monarchy.

I'm glad that HHL has worked in a "prompt and efficient manner" to benefit Hawaiians. :cool:

I don't turn every thread into an argument about racism. When the practitioners of this vile behavior, such as Mr. Abercrombie et al, bring it to the forefront, I will not leave it alone.

And yet, I know many Hawaiians who own their homes, without any help from some government entitlement program. So I will propose the question again.....

What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world? Mr. Abercrombie knows the answer, but won't return my email. Keanu knows, but won't say. I have a feeling Waioli Kai knows. And perhaps even TuNnL knows.

Tim, you sure are small-minded & shortsighted for a person that likes to trumpet his self- perceived intelligence at every opportunity.

For the record, I told you that I'll submit my response in due time. Unlike you, I prefer to back up my argument with facts rather than drivel.

[timkona]

Calling a spade a spade can be construed as abrasive or obnoxious. Isn't that what you are upset about with me?

And yet, you still have no explanation. I'm very patient. Look on the bright side. You might convince me of why certain races deserve special entitlement benefits. Hitler was able to convince a good part of Europe why Jews were inferior. Perhaps you, Keanu, can be as persuasive as Hitler.

Hard to imagine that I'm being villified for arguing that Hawaiians are just as capable as any other race. It's a kooky world. It's even harder to imagine that a member of ANY race would embrace the notion of inferiority and failure to such depths as to justify being culled from the herd and labeled as incapable. Maybe it's a cultural difference.:cool:

[Keanu]

Calling a spade a spade can be construed as abrasive or obnoxious. Isn't that what you are upset about with me?

No, calling a spade a spade is saying YOU are abrasive and obnoxious.I called a spade a spade, not a shovel.

I try not to waste my time on trivial emotions so I will declare for the record that although your argument or lack thereof on these issues is annoying, I don't harbor any ill will towards you. These are your perspectives no matter how ridiculous they are and as the saying goes.."Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one."


And yet, you still have no explanation. I'm very patient.

As indicated by your comments on the last couple of pages of this thread, I don't think you half are as patient as you claim to be.


Look on the bright side.You might convince me of why certain races deserve special entitlement benefits. Hitler was able to convince a good part of Europe why Jews were inferior. Perhaps you, Keanu, can be as persuasive as Hitler.

A good part of Europe? surely you jest! The Nazi party did not constitute "a good part of Europe". As an aside, I don't have any plans to write my own version of "Mein Kampf" anytime soon... sorry to disappoint you.


Hard to imagine that I'm being villified for arguing that Hawaiians are just as capable as any other race. It's a kooky world. It's even harder to imagine that a member of ANY race would embrace the notion of inferiority and failure to such depths as to justify being culled from the herd and labeled as incapable. Maybe it's a cultural difference.:cool:


Vilified is spelled with just one L tim. :D ;)

I don't think you're being vilified...You're just acting like a "Drama Queen".

[alohabear]

I see Tim as the BIGGEST supporter of Hawaiians in this thread. I see his point as being that the Kanaka Maoli as equal as any other race. They don't need to feel "less" than others. Mr. Abercrombie makes it seem they are "less" so they they need special programs to help them. If the Hawaiian people are really as "PROUD" a race as the PSA's on TV suggest they would shut why Mr. Abercrombie says about them down. My part Hawaiian son is proud of ALL his cultures, he makes good grades in(public) school, and one day will be a success because of the values I(and my family) taught him. He doesn't need Goverment help to get to his goals, his Ohana will get him there.

[waioli kai]

. --When trying to preserve a culture, I would not depend upon the government to help me. -- tkona

When one considers the great number of North and South American and Pacific peoples and cultures the U.S. has either directly destroyed or abetted destruction, who exactly would depend on the U.S. government/its states to help preserve Hawaiian culture? Only to the extent that the victims of genocide (in this case Hawai'ians) would plead to their executioner (the U.S. government/its corporatUSt$) to not enable complete disenfranchisment, when not otherwise extermination, would anyone be "depending on the government to help preserve a culture".

--I don't turn every thread into an argument about racism. When the practitioners of this vile behavior, such as Mr. Abercrombie et al, bring it to the forefront, I will not leave it alone.-- tkona

The entire foundation of and accumalated wealth of the United States is a result of centuries of racism. A few recent decades of pacifying rhetoric does not alter the facts. It's easy (for near exclusively 'whitish people' and their sycophants/apologists) to now say after they (US) own and control everything via genocide, theft and corruption: " Hey we're a very moral and ethical group, not to mention the fact that we outnumber you, let's be fair!,,, whatever you have left that you can call your own let's together make laws that entitle all of US to share that. " That of course not being Hawai'ian culture, but Hawai'ian lands, institutions and bessings.

Racism (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Racism) is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, that a certain race is inherently superior or inferior to others, and/or that individuals should be treated differently according to their racial designation. Sometimes racism means beliefs, practices, and institutions that discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed race. There is a growing, but controversial, opinion that racism is a system of oppression -- a nexus of racist beliefs, whether explicit, tacit or unconscious; practices; organizations and institutions that combine to discriminate against and societally marginalize a class of people who share a common racial designation, based on that designation.

Given "racism" in the above context tkona is obviously suffering the self-induced paranoia that his race, or any race in Hawaii is threatened with being marginalized in by Hawai'ians. Even the most naive visitor to Hawaii would instantly see how absurd such claims are.

. == Lots of folks on this thread will argue for favortism towards this group or that group. But you never hear the same folks explaining what it is, precisely, that makes a group inferior.== tkona #51==

In corporatUSt America what makes a tkona "group" inferior? Nothing more:$:Nothing less than one's connection to the overdrawn/bankrupt [what kind declaration does it take for Americans? a declaration from a morally and fiscally bankrupt CEO presidency: " US is broke,,, bankrupt, corrupt beyond belief/beyond redemption, overdue for dissolution and reconstitution of the peoples Its corruption both benefits and oppresses] capitalUSt wealth institutions of the obsolete, dying and rotting, and killing last remaining imperialit/colonialist United States and Great Britain. The heirs in the original thirteen colonies of the United States is in deep doo-doo when elitUSt heirs are finally exposed for the kleptocrUSy on which their institutions depends to afford to reign over other peoples.
--What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world? -- tkona
??? "... naturally unable to compete and make it in the world?" If that is not a quote translated straight from Mein Kamph I would be stupified.
--I don't have any plans to write my own version of "Mein Kampf" anytime soon... sorry to disappoint you.-- tkona

--Hitler was able to convince a good part of Europe why Jews were inferior. Perhaps you, Keanu [Hawai'ian], [can be as persuasive as Hitler. -- tkona

So let's see... timkona is suggesting that Hawai'ians and their adherents are the Nazi of Hawaii and that white people or anybody not in lock step with the Nazi of Hawaii are equivalent to the Ashkenazi Jews of Europe pre-1945 and subject to the same persecution. I'd say that despite tkona protestations otherwise, tkona is engaged in his version of Mein Kampf on the pages of this forum.

[Keanu]

I see Tim as the BIGGEST supporter of Hawaiians in this thread. I see his point as being that the Kanaka Maoli as equal as any other race. They don't need to feel "less" than others. Mr. Abercrombie makes it seem they are "less" so they they need special programs to help them. If the Hawaiian people are really as "PROUD" a race as the PSA's on TV suggest they would shut why Mr. Abercrombie says about them down. My part Hawaiian son is proud of ALL his cultures, he makes good grades in(public) school, and one day will be a success because of the values I(and my family) taught him. He doesn't need Goverment help to get to his goals, his Ohana will get him there.


The only thing Tim supports is his ego.

Do tell why Hawaiians should shut Abercrombie down? Do you honestly have a grasp of the intital topic of this discussion? it certainly doesn't seem like it. All the bill does is reauthorize loans provided under Title VI of the Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Act of 1996 for fiscal years 2008 through 2012 and would expand eligibility to include the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands. He is doing his job as a Congressional Representative from the State of Hawaii. What part of section 2, article X11 of the Hawaii State Constitution don't you understand?

I hope your child makes the most of his education because in order to succeed, he'll have to be smarter than you and you've proven that you certainly aren't the sharpest knife in the kitchen.

[alohabear]

We are still waiting for you Keanu to answer Tim's question....What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world? Mr. Abercrombie knows the answer, but won't return my email. Keanu knows, but won't say. I have a feeling Waioli Kai knows. And perhaps even TuNnL knows.Well... speak up smart guy! And no spin on the answer please.

[timkona]

Aloha Alohabear,

First of all, thanks for the props. I truly believe that race has no bearing on a person's ability to make a go of their lives. Ignorance is not defined by the color of one's skin. Which brings me to Keanu.

We should not badger Keanu too hard. He has placed himself in a position of trying to explain why Hawaiians can't cut it. Were I a Congressman, I would quiz Mr. Abercrombie on the same question, and not let him squirm out of the answer. But I don't expect anything close to a rational explanation from Keanu. And he should not feel obligated to give one.

The fact that he refuses to change his mind about the issue is the deeper problem. The entitlement mentality depends upon the expectation of failure. In fact, anything other than utter failure is viewed with a cynical eye by the hard core liberal philosophers on this forum. You must understand that dependency and failure is the cornerstone of any liberal platform. That is the essence of the modern Democratic Party politics in America today.

[Leo Lakio]

If I may make a slight adaptation to your posting, Tim --- it certainly changes the context, but I suspect you will be in agreement:
The fact that he refuses to change his mind about the issue is the deeper problem. ... That is the essence of the modern ... Party politics in America today.

[timkona]

Say what Leo. Are you saying that both sides of the political coin are captivated by failure and dependency. Cuz I don't see it that way at all.

PS - Have you ever known me to let somebody sneak out of a logic trap that I have set for them in the way that I just let Keanu off the hook? I must be getting nice in my old age.

[Leo Lakio]

Say what Leo. Are you saying that both sides of the political coin are captivated by failure and dependency. Cuz I don't see it that way at all.No, sir. That's why I removed that section. Rather, I was suggesting that both parties are encumbered by an unwillingness to allow flexibility on issues, to "change their minds" as it were. That's where I suspected you would be in agreement.

[waioli kai]

. ==tkona --The entitlement mentality depends upon the expectation of failure. In fact, anything other than utter failure is viewed with a cynical eye by the hard core liberal philosophers on this forum. You must understand that dependency and failure is the cornerstone of any liberal platform. That is the essence of the modern Democratic Party politics in America today. --

This following definition is to counter the claims, assertions, presumptions emanating from some posters' infertile narrowminded perspectives:
' Entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits because of rights, or by agreement through law. It can also refer, in a more casual sense to someone's belief that they are deserving of some particular reward or benefit. It is often used as a negative term in popular parlance (i.e. a 'sense of entitlement'). The legal term, however, carries no value judgement, it simply denotes a right granted. '

Thus it is that "the entitlement mentality" exists most predominantly in those persons who have already retired or expect to soon retire with lifetime income flowing into their non-productive lives out of the overdrawn coffers of the corporatist state, aka bankruptUS America. How such individuals' entitlement mentality "depends upon the expectation of failure" is a mystery to me, but perhaps the tkona logic can explain it, although he has yet to confront another of his contradictory assertions where he says: == " No to special rights. Yes to a level playing field." == Yet he doesn't seem to want to start with doing away with corporate America's inherited wealth assurances allowing that everybody is born equal, has equal access to health care, education, financing, and so on.

[Keanu]

Say what Leo. Are you saying that both sides of the political coin are captivated by failure and dependency. Cuz I don't see it that way at all.

PS - Have you ever known me to let somebody sneak out of a logic trap that I have set for them in the way that I just let Keanu off the hook? I must be getting nice in my old age.

Trap, Lol, you are far too predictable and I am far too astute to fall into any trap that you could possibly try to set, Tim. You may view yourself as an adversary but I view you as nothing more than a feeble-minded fool who puts far too much validity in his warped perspectives. :p

For the record, I am an independent who votes based on the issues rather than along party lines. I have supported and opposed measures and ideology on both sides. Needless to say (but I'll say it anyway), your labeling of me as a liberal based primarily on these types of topics is extremely laughable. You claim to have all the answers when you don't even know all the questions. Presumptuousness is clearly your virtue, much to the vexation of many on HT I would presume.

It seems as though you have much time on your hands so while you patiently wait for my response, you would be well served to read Shakespeare's "The Tempest" even if it will be beyond your level of comprehension.

[Keanu]

We are still waiting for you Keanu to answer Tim's question....Well... speak up smart guy! And no spin on the answer please.

I think it would make me all warm and fuzzy inside to enter into a battle of wits with you but it is against my nature to attack an unarmed individual, and I've already made an exception for Tim.Feel free to ride Tim's coattail though because it makes my task that much easier. :D :)

[glossyp]

I think it would make me all warm and fuzzy inside to enter into a battle of wits with you but it is against my nature to attack an unarmed individual, and I've already made an exception for Tim.Feel free to ride Tim's coattail though because it makes my task that much easier. :D :)
Well, it's certainly easier than actually answering the question. In the meantime, please add me to the target list of ignorant unarmed individuals waiting for enlightenment.:rolleyes:

[alohabear]

Go to this link(if you are interested) and learn about Self-ownership (http://www.libertarian.to/images/animation/PhilosophyOfLiberty-english.swf).......nuff said!

[Keanu]

Well, it's certainly easier than actually answering the question. In the meantime, please add me to the target list of ignorant unarmed individuals waiting for enlightenment.:rolleyes:

Added :rolleyes:

This was Tim's original comment "Now please, somebody explain to me what it is, precisely, that makes Hawaiians unable to compete." This is a presumption veiled as a question. For the record, I don't think Hawaiians are UNABLE to complete. While this may have been an issue in the early 1900's, it isn't an issue now, no matter how hard the jester tries to make it one. That's why I asked him what he'd do with DHHL land. I should add that his answer was utterly ridiculous, not that I was suprised. He intends to solve a self- perceived problem by creating another. Perhaps he'd be better off admitting that capitalism has played a large role in promoting racism especially socioeconomic racism.

HHL does not violate fair housing laws as Tim believes.The Hawaiian Homes commission act was enacted by congress in 1921 and subsequent congressional legislation dealing with indigenous groups is political, not racial, in character and therefore is neither discriminatory nor unconstitutional.

My reply to Tim is forthcoming.

[Keanu]

Go to this link(if you are interested) and learn about Self-ownership (http://www.libertarian.to/images/animation/PhilosophyOfLiberty-english.swf).......nuff said!


Good in theory but hardly practical in the real world.

[Deep Thought]

HHL does not violate fair housing laws as Tim believes.The Hawaiian Homes commission act was enacted by congress in 1921 and subsequent congressional legislation dealing with indigenous groups is political, not racial, in character and therefore is neither discriminatory nor unconstitutional.


HHCA doesn't fit well within the current legal framework. The intent and spirit of the act are unquestionable, although it contains phrasing, ideas and terms that would be best left behind. In a way I'm reminded of Pauahi's Will which, even by the standards of the day, contained some terrible practices (like having the trustees be chosen by the HI Supreme court), as well as vague terms open to interpretation (never good in a will), an interesting sort of self-racism combined with religion (that whole bit about sending boys and girls to school to become, respectively, blue collar workers and nurses) and little or no enforcement provisions to ensure that trustees performed their fiduciary duties diligently.

Hmmmm sounds a LOT like HHCA ('cept that bit about workers and nurses and the racism was from Americans, so take out the self- bit). Tribal status is right out since the Hawaiians weren't a tribe and lack the treaties that Native American tribes have that promised stuff other than "friendship" (I read the treaties the US made with the Kingdom, and they're worthless fluff). The spirit and intent of the HHCA should be honored, but the mechanics of how that spirit and intent are currently conveyed should be gutted as it requires the use of a great number of anachronistic practices (like blood quantum!) which in turn is creating the social and political friction that provokes non-entitled peoples into trying to dismantle the privileged institutions that exist as a result of HHCA and the Will. This poison pill of managing Hawaiian resources for Hawaiians is one we would do well to expel from government and return responsibility to those to whom the land was ostensibly given (see my comments on previous page).

Plus I can't WAIT to see the ruckus that ensues when the Hawaiians start fighting over who is the most Hawaiian, or the most royal, or what have you, when it comes to who ultimately winds up holding the hot potato (the Ceded Lands).

[buzz1941]

Perhaps Hawaiians need to be saved from cheesy gravy burgers.

[alohabear]

Perhaps Hawaiians need to be saved from cheesy gravy burgers.It was all a plot to kill them off! Look at the basic Hawaiian diet, very healthy. Now introduce them to foreign foods and which group in Hawaii has the most health problems due to diet? Hmmmm.....:rolleyes:

[PoiBoy]

We are still waiting for you Keanu to answer Tim's question.... Quote:
What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world?

In the world? naw...see you folks are so narrow minded. You think that a system that you promote fits all indigenous people around the world?

Kanaka just as my Kagaka are people of the land...they live off the land....they are the land.

Western way of life/Western capitalism is foreign to Kanaka....many Kanaka have adapted and good on them. Some have not and that is understandable....they have lived their way of life for thousands of years and then all of a sudden had a foreign system "forced upon" them.

In western eyes my people were lazy...cuz we lived off our land and slaved away to no one. We were considered lazy cuz they could not exploit us.

[Keanu]

In the world? naw...see you folks are so narrow minded. You think that a system that you promote fits all indigenous people around the world?

Kanaka just as my Kagaka are people of the land...they live off the land....they are the land.

Western way of life/Western capitalism is foreign to Kanaka....many Kanaka have adapted and good on them. Some have not and that is understandable....they have lived their way of life for thousands of years and then all of a sudden had a foreign system "forced upon" them.

In western eyes my people were lazy...cuz we lived off our land and slaved away to no one. We were considered lazy cuz they could not exploit us.

PoiBoi gets an A+

:D

People like Tim don't know any better. They think their ideology supercedes that of everyone else. Then they have the utter audacity to bitch when their perspectives don't apply. It's quite comical.:D

My response to Tim's presumption is still forthcoming.

[Leo Lakio]

Part of the problem is that some people will automatically insist that, as males of European ancestry, folks like Tim (and myself) can NEVER understand the perspectives of a non-European culture. No matter what we do, say or learn, we haoles can not fully grasp a kanaka mindset.

On one hand, I would say that's correct. No one who is not a product of a specific cultural upbringing will ever be fully knowledgable of that culture. You could focus that to an individual extreme - no one who has not lived my life, experienced my upbringing, absorbed my influences during my life can truly understand what it feels like to be "me."

But on the other hand, there is an element of bullsh!t to the first paragraph, in that there is no single mindset that can be applied equally all across a culture. Yes, there are ways, behaviors, beliefs, values that are common to many, if not most, members of a cultural group. But they cannot be assigned to all.

Tim points out that, from his own neighborhood, there are kanaka who would likely reject welfare efforts, preferring to prove that they can succeed without handouts. PoiBoy notes that there are some in his culture who are comfortable within a capitalist system that was imposed upon them, while others say "no, thank you - we do just fine in our fashion and don't really care whether it fits your structure or not."

There are too many generalizations being made in this discussion, on different sides. Tim does not see the value of entitlement programs for any ethnic group, as he feels everyone should be judged on an equal playing field, with no special concessions for anyone. Others see the playing field as presently un-equal (for historical reasons, primarily), and view said programs as attempts to rectify the imbalance. These are not mutually exclusive concepts - unless you insist that one be "right" and the other "wrong."

Cognitive dissonance or flexibility of perspective?

[Keanu]

Tim points out that, from his own neighborhood, there are kanaka who would likely reject welfare efforts, preferring to prove that they can succeed without handouts.

Prove what and to whom though? Tim somehow thinks that the Hawaiians he referenced are the rule rather than the exception. Fwiw, I don't think either side is the rule or the exception. The fact of the matter is that these programs have been in existence for many years. They were created to ensure that Hawaiians would always have a place in their ancestral homeland. Hawaiians have lived in these homes for many years. A good majority of those that live in Hawaiian home lands are elderly. I find it incredibly offensive that Tim thinks it's a good idea to kick Kupuna out of their homes just so they can "prove" to him and his ilk that they can succeed in his BS capitalist utopia. How in the hell is someone supposed to buy a 600,000 house or 300,000 shitty condo on a freaking retirement check and why would they want to when more viable housing is already an option? Hawaiians didn't raise the cost of real estate. Money hungry assholes brought their game to Hawaii and now morons like Tim bitch that Hawaiians don't want to play. Why should they move out of their homes so they can pay to live in haoleville?

[Leo Lakio]

Tim somehow thinks that the Hawaiians he referenced are the rule rather than the exception.If that's all he has ever experienced, then you can understand his point of reference; you don't have to agree with it, or call him "moron" for it.

Keanu - I'm likely to be on your side of this debate, politically speaking, but moving into a frustrated realm of insults doesn't strengthen the case - a case that you've been promising to expand upon for several days now. It's time to share your research and offer up your response to Tim. Please do - I'm very much looking forward to reading it; I expect it will be thorough and thoughtful.

[Keanu]

If that's all he has ever experienced, then you can understand his point of reference; you don't have to agree with it, or call him "moron" for it.

It's not his point of reference that's the problem, it's his unwillingness to be open to anything BUT his point of reference.


Keanu - I'm likely to be on your side of this debate, politically speaking, but moving into a frustrated realm of insults doesn't strengthen the case

But it sure is fun. :D




- a case that you've been promising to expand upon for several days now. It's time to share your research and offer up your response to Tim. Please do - I'm very much looking forward to reading it; I expect it will be thorough and thoughtful.

I don't get paid to debate issues online. I get paid to do the people's work, not my own work so when I have time away from the office (like now on lunch break) I check in. :D

I'll respond to Tim's presumption soon enough. I'm suprised he hasn't gotten his knickers in a bunch yet. :p

[Leo Lakio]

It's not his point of reference that's the problem, it's his unwillingness to be open to anything BUT his point of reference.Frustrating as it may be, you can't force him to change it. Understanding his side can go a long way to getting him to see another side. I often disagree with him (and he with me), but I think we actually "get" where the other person is coming from. You're headed in that direction, too.But it sure is fun. :D Damn - but you're right (I can say, having been guilty of that before.) It still doesn't help, though.I'm suprised he hasn't gotten his knickers in a bunch yet. :pHe did say he was a patient man. Guess I'm not so much. I'll still be ready to read when you're ready to share, and thanks.

[Leo Lakio]

Perhaps Hawaiians need to be saved from cheesy gravy burgers.Or the reverse.

[Lei K]

How in the hell is someone supposed to buy a 600,000 house or 300,000 shitty condo on a freaking retirement check and why would they want to when more viable housing is already an option? Hawaiians didn't raise the cost of real estate. Money hungry assholes brought their game to Hawaii and now morons like Tim bitch that Hawaiians don't want to play. Why should they move out of their homes so they can pay to live in haoleville?

Sad and true all at the same time, I understand you Keanu. Though I will leave the "like Tim" part out because I stay nice li 'dat. :D

I think the main point is to help Hawaiians stay in their ancestral homelands, what is Hawai`i without Hawaiians? I get very saddened by the amount of hard working people of Hawaiian ancestry who HAVE TO move to the mainland to make it. Their hearts aching for their home, but their wallets not allowing them to go back to a place their 'ohana has always been. For the record these people aren't "lazy." Well, unless you count my brother. :p

I grew up poor, my father wasn't always around (til later in life) which left my poor Hawaiian mother alone to raise us the best she could. Growing up my mother never realized she herself was poor, but she was. I remember only a few years ago we were out with my tutu who exclaimed she really would love to have some ice cream. My mom says, "But you don't like ice cream, you said so when we were kids." My tutu starts crying and says, "It's because we couldn't afford for us AND you kids to have ice cream, so I acted like I didn't like it, so you didn't know."

My grandparents worked hard and it was never put "out there" that they didn't have much money. Besides, they were always rich in 'ohana which is what counts the most. People aren't born equal, and mom always worked hard, tried her best, just like she was raised to do. Tutu did what she could by helping raise us while mom worked, and then worked more.

If there are programs to help a native daughter like her buy a home, when it would be impossible to do so otherwise, why not? Why should she move away from her ancestral homeland to provide a better life for us or die on a waiting list for a home? She's just another "displaced Hawaiian" on a list of them that keeps growing and growing. Tutu is getting older, mom cries often because she can't move back home. Mom is very sick herself, she's actually healthier when she visits back home because she feels whole. She can't afford to buy in O'ahu at 61 years old.

It would be nice to keep some more Hawaiians in Hawai`i, wouldn't it?

I feel like many Hawaiians would like to live how PoiBoy talks of his Samoan people, off the land and simple, beautiful. Some Hawaiians still manage to do this on islands other than O'ahu, but for how long?

To live that way one cannot afford to stay in da 'aina, it's either conform and compete or get out of the way and let someone who "works harder" own what you obviously don't deserve since you are "lazy." Your way of life, that's been that way for, well forever, is wrong. Stop it!

This concept has really wrecked havoc in my own 'ohana. Currently we haven't had lu'au in ages because other than my mother everyone else still lives back home and guess what? Some work 2 jobs to do so or work crazy hours and don't have as much time to live life how they want to. No can be simple when no can be home, work, work, work lazy Kanakas or get ouuuut. And by the way, quit b*tching about it. :rolleyes:

[Lei K]

Or the reverse.


Hey I resemble that remark. Mmmmm cheesey gravy burgers. My heart aches in more ways than one over the thought.

[waioli kai]

. --Tim does not see the value of entitlement programs for any ethnic group, as he feels everyone should be judged on an equal playing field, with no special concessions for anyone.-- Leo You are being too generous with the parameters of tkona logic. He most most definitely feels the value of entitlement structures for his ethnic group at the same time he refuses to acknowledge that such structures are entitlements benefitting almost exclusively his ethnic and age group. As for tkona's feeling that "an equal playing field" is the kind of socio-economic environment characterizing life under the banner of the United States of America....well that notion is just pure crappola that only a beneficiary of justUS and capitalUSism could judge to be palatable.

And as an aside, I don't believe for a moment that tkona experiences or has experienced any blessings from Hawai'ians. His idea of what is Hawai'ian is a figment of his worn-out and shallow imagination.

[joshuatree]

She's just another "displaced Hawaiian" on a list of them that keeps growing and growing.

Curious, do you believe if Hawaii was never overthrown and retained its independence, that in today's world, Hawaii would never have experienced any plights or hardships that would displace Hawaiians?


I feel like many Hawaiians would like to live how PoiBoy talks of his Samoan people, off the land and simple, beautiful. Some Hawaiians still manage to do this on islands other than O'ahu, but for how long?

Here's a scenario I like to see what you think. Obviously, to say kick out every non native from the islands would be unrealistic. So if some of the islands were given back to native Hawaiians, do you think that would be a compromise people can live with?

To live that way one cannot afford to stay in da 'aina, it's either conform and compete or get out of the way and let someone who "works harder" own what you obviously don't deserve since you are "lazy." Your way of life, that's been that way for, well forever, is wrong. Stop it!

This concept has really wrecked havoc in my own 'ohana. Currently we haven't had lu'au in ages because other than my mother everyone else still lives back home and guess what? Some work 2 jobs to do so or work crazy hours and don't have as much time to live life how they want to. No can be simple when no can be home, work, work, work lazy Kanakas or get ouuuut. And by the way, quit b*tching about it. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure this is really the way of the haole either. Back in the 50s, it was the standard for a one income family, the stereotypical bread winning dad and the homemaker mom. But globalization has forced more and more families to become two income households. Also, the nuclear family is getting smaller and smaller, just the parents and kids. Extended relatives no longer live under the same roof. You see this trend in any part of the world now.

[timkona]

I'm not against all entitlement programs. We should use criteria such as economic hardship, or academic achievement (either low or high), or medical necessity, or other non-racial reasons to distribute the money around.

Some folks don't need help in life. Some folks do. This is true regardless of one's race.

So if there is some poor Aunty who needs a place to live, then my heart is breaking, and I'm in favor of a couple different solutions to get a roof over her head, and her family.

If you got an immigrant family with children in grammar school, then I'm there on Thursday mornings to read to them and help them learn. (That's a fact right now in my life)

If somebody needs medicine or a visit to the doctor, ..... well, the US is failing miserably in that department. But we sure do have enough money to fight the War on Drugs. :cool:

If we don't have enough dwellings to accomodate the population at ALL price ranges, then I'm for firing a nail gun, and building smarter communities, that are not all spread out and car-dependent.

I don't need any assistance in my life right now. Lucky me. (prayer) And I'm happy to pay some taxes along the way. I hope that some of my tax money is being spent to help lots of different folks who need lots of different things. And I hope, most especially, that anybody who is struggling a little gets some help without any regard to the color of their skin or the purity of their pedigree.

[Lei K]

Mahalo for your questions Joshuatree.

Curious, do you believe if Hawaii was never overthrown and retained its independence, that in today's world, Hawaii would never have experienced any plights or hardships that would displace Hawaiians?

It's not that I think that life would be some fantasy world where every native still lived home. I do believe that less would have been displaced if their country was still in tact. I don't believe that it would be getting to the point it is now where more Hawaiians are living on the CONUS than in their ancestral homelands. I think it's a sad day when any place starts to lose their indigenous peoples.

Here's a scenario I like to see what you think. Obviously, to say kick out every non native from the islands would be unrealistic. So if some of the islands were given back to native Hawaiians, do you think that would be a compromise people can live with?

I can't speak for every Hawaiian/part Hawaiian out there. But my mana'o on this is that the majority wouldn't want to kick out non natives to begin with.

What if Hawaiians were given some islands back? Some could probably live with that and be quite happy while others wouldn't step down until there is complete restoration of the kingdom.

I'm not sure this is really the way of the haole either. Back in the 50s, it was the standard for a one income family, the stereotypical bread winning dad and the homemaker mom. But globalization has forced more and more families to become two income households. Also, the nuclear family is getting smaller and smaller, just the parents and kids. Extended relatives no longer live under the same roof. You see this trend in any part of the world now.

Just because it's a trend in the CONUS doesn't mean it should happen to the Kanaka Maoli, does it? I don't get why indigenous people have to conform and go through exactly what everyone else in the western world does. I don't understand the "everyone else is doing it, you need to" mentality. Wouldn't it be a beautiful thing if Hawai`i worked to preserve the ways of life of their own native people? I don't see it as entitlement, I see it as allowing a people native to this place (many of you love) to live where they belong. So many claim to love the 'aina, it's culture, it's traditions, it's people, but soon enough gonna be no more Hawaiians there to be kumu or to live in a traditional way.

[joshuatree]

Mahalo for your questions Joshuatree.



It's not that I think that life would be some fantasy world where every native still lived home. I do believe that less would have been displaced if their country was still in tact. I don't believe that it would be getting to the point it is now where more Hawaiians are living on the CONUS than in their ancestral homelands. I think it's a sad day when any place starts to lose their indigenous peoples.



I can't speak for every Hawaiian/part Hawaiian out there. But my mana'o on this is that the majority wouldn't want to kick out non natives to begin with.

What if Hawaiians were given some islands back? Some could probably live with that and be quite happy while others wouldn't step down until there is complete restoration of the kingdom.



Just because it's a trend in the CONUS doesn't mean it should happen to the Kanaka Maoli, does it? I don't get why indigenous people have to conform and go through exactly what everyone else in the western world does. I don't understand the "everyone else is doing it, you need to" mentality. Wouldn't it be a beautiful thing if Hawai`i worked to preserve the ways of life of their own native people? I don't see it as entitlement, I see it as allowing a people native to this place (many of you love) to live where they belong. So many claim to love the 'aina, it's culture, it's traditions, it's people, but soon enough gonna be no more Hawaiians there to be kumu or to live in a traditional way.

Hey LK, thanks for answering my questions.

Regarding the trend, no, it doesn't mean it should happen to Kanaka Maoli but what I was trying to point out is that this trend isn't necessarily a CONUS trend. It's happening all over the world, even in the non-western world. All I'm trying to say is, it seems be an overly generalized blanket statement to say the present day realities and struggles (two income households, etc) is purely a creation of the western world. Sometimes, there are world forces that simply no particular race is driving but all end up bending to.

I know there is no such solution that satisfies everyone. Never did in the past, don't expect it to happen in the future. But again, based on present day realities, I would think giving back some of the islands under native Hawaiian control and having a similar arrangement like what many native American tribes have would be the best compromise. Once that is set up, there should be set a time frame for all the current federal assisted programs for native Hawaiians to end. Because at that point, it should be considered reparations as complete and also the playing field is leveled. Hopefully over that time frame, healing has been done. Anyway, that's just my $.02. :D

[Lei K]

I know there is no such solution that satisfies everyone. Never did in the past, don't expect it to happen in the future. But again, based on present day realities, I would think giving back some of the islands under native Hawaiian control and having a similar arrangement like what many native American tribes have would be the best compromise. Once that is set up, there should be set a time frame for all the current federal assisted programs for native Hawaiians to end. Because at that point, it should be considered reparations as complete and also the playing field is leveled. Hopefully over that time frame, healing has been done. Anyway, that's just my $.02. :D

I appreciate your mana'o, your open mind, and how polite you are. Mahalo so very much.

[Keanu]

I'd like to thank Tim for his patience.

I haven't forgotten my promise to respond to his presumption. I'm working on it. :)

[timkona]

Thanks Keanu. I also have Mr. Abercrombie working on the same answer. If he responds, I will certainly share it with you.

At this point, I have a feeling that there may be a viable, logical, justifiable answer to the question of why it is that some Hawaiians are naturally inferior to other races and therefore deserving of entitlement programs rooted in race based selection criteria. Otherwise, why would Keanu be working on it so hard? Why would Mr. Abercrombie promote such an idea?

Yessireeee.......the great and mighty Timkona is on the verge of having his mind changed about a particular subject. In this case, the natural and/or genetic inferiority of a race based solely upon their pedigree, to wit, a notion that I do not presently embrace.

But if it be the case, then it is world shaking news along the lines of Cro-Magnon vs. Neanderthal.

I am actually excited a little. (and not in a sarcastic way) :)

[Mililani]

The republicans are hypocrites for claiming that special legal privileges for Native Hawaiians are unconstitutional. The whole damn U.S. annexation of Hawaii was unconstitutional.The Newlands Resolution, the illegal act which "provided" for the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands to the United States and signed by a corrupt U.S. President was itself unconstitutional. I challenge anyone to cite the provision within the framework of the United States Constitution that enables the U.S. government to annex a foreign territory (which Hawaii was at the time) to the United States by joint resolution.

Now THIS is what I would like to see brought to the floor! We don't need no friggin special priviledges. The US has already acknowledged the wrong they've done, now its time for them to do something about it! We are still fighting this injustice.

Why is that? Because they don't care. None of what's happened to the hawaiian people matter to them!

[timkona]

We don't need no friggin special priviledges.

That's what I've been saying. Finally, a voice of reason. Clearly, Mililani is one who has made a success of her life. Good on ya !!

[Keanu]

Thanks Keanu. I also have Mr. Abercrombie working on the same answer. If he responds, I will certainly share it with you.

At this point, I have a feeling that there may be a viable, logical, justifiable answer to the question of why it is that some Hawaiians are naturally inferior to other races and therefore deserving of entitlement programs rooted in race based selection criteria. Otherwise, why would Keanu be working on it so hard? Why would Mr. Abercrombie promote such an idea?

Yessireeee.......the great and mighty Timkona is on the verge of having his mind changed about a particular subject. In this case, the natural and/or genetic inferiority of a race based solely upon their pedigree, to wit, a notion that I do not presently embrace.

But if it be the case, then it is world shaking news along the lines of Cro-Magnon vs. Neanderthal.

I am actually excited a little. (and not in a sarcastic way) :)


Tim, don't get your hopes up too much. You see I don't share your views that Hawaiians are inferior. The fact of the matter is that these programs have been in place for years to assure that Hawaiians would always have a place in their ancestral homelands. Those like Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop and Prince Jonah Kuhio Kalanianaole had incredible foresight. They wanted to assure that their people would be able to survive an ever changing Hawai'i. I asked you a question as to what you would do with the DHHL and the Kamehameha Schools. Your answers are what I will respond to. I've been looking at various statistics and find your suggestions not only incredibly naive and short-sighted but unfeasible as well. It is to be quite frank, completely inane. You seek to solve one (self perceived) problem by creating another, and seek to remove one (self perceived) form of racism for another. I know a lot of hard working Hawaiians who simply would not be able to afford a 600 thousand dollar home. This has nothing to do with inferiority. Hawaiians didn't drive up the cost of housing and real estate.The ties we forge as Hawaiians bind us to the land, not our wallets. I'm actually disappointed in you Tim. It's gotten to the point where If I gave you a penny for your thoughts, I'd expect change.

[TuNnL]

I have a feeling that there may be a viable, logical, justifiable answer to the question of why it is that some Hawaiians are naturally inferior to other races and therefore deserving of entitlement programs rooted in race based selection criteria. Otherwise, why would Keanu be working on it so hard? Why would Mr. Abercrombie promote such an idea?*sigh* Tim, you continue to present the same close-minded, condescending attitude to the kanaka maoli people. Native Hawaiians are not necessarily naturally inferior to other races, but that doesn’t mean they are not deserving of entitlement programs. On the same token, you also err in your assumption that these programs are “rooted in race.”

Native Hawaiians are entitled to reparations from the federal government because of the special trust relationship that exists between them as beneficiaries of a poli