Traditional or modern life - what would you choose?

[glossyp]

The contrast between modern and traditional life has come up as a sub text in a couple of other threads (most recently the one on Abercrombie) and it has prompted me to think about the subject in depth.

I don't know have many of you have lived in a traditional way (by that I mean relying primarily, if not solely, upon what you can grow, fish, hunt or gather with minimal supplement of other goods) for any span of time. I have, and I find that many people who haven't lived "off the land" tend to romanticize it, thinking it is somehow a superior way of life. The reality is that it is hard, and while it can be rewarding, it is far removed from an idyllic existence. The vagaries of nature are just one of the challenges. The difficulties of living this way are one reason we see so many people leaving Micronesia to pursue a more modern way of life. I've talked to many Micronesians, and while they struggle to survive in their new homes, very few of them have any desire to return to the islands and live in the traditional way.

So, the possible discussion points are:
1) If it were possible, would you like to live off the land?
2) If you believe that a traditional way of life is superior, explain why and in what way.
3) If you believe modern life is superior, explain why and in what way.
4) If you are some one who doesn't want to live in a traditional way, but were forced to, what would you miss most about modern life?
5) If you have lived off the land, what did you find rewarding and what did you find difficult?

As for me, I'd like to live in the future with replicators, flying cars and robots - think The Jetsons - talk about romanticizing!

[blueyecicle]

I worked with patients who have a disease that prevents them from using any plastics or any of todays chemicals and no modern treated wood or anything. It sends them to the hospital.

Very interesting lifestyle.
They live comlpetely "off the grid" and grow their own foods and wood and well, everything. They do not shop or anything.

It is interesting but lonely.

I also worked for a woman who was elderly and lived "off the grid" as well. But she had a store deliver milk and meat. Everything else she grew on her own and canned. we used wood stove heat and wood cooking. They had 50 acres of wood and a water mill for electricty. Her husband built it in 1920 and it worked even 5 years ago. She was convinced that her way was best and the cleanest way to live!

I am not sure I would love it. But I could do it.

I like my cell phone and internet. I also like shopping and driving. So my vote is the now or future.

But somedays I love the thought of living off the land away from it all.
In the end I would be too lonely!

[Menehune Man]

So, the possible discussion points are:

1) If it were possible, would you like to live off the land?
2) If you believe that a traditional way of life is superior, explain why and in what way.
3) If you believe modern life is superior, explain why and in what way.
4) If you are some one who doesn't want to live in a traditional way, but were forced to, what would you miss most about modern life?
5) If you have lived off the land, what did you find rewarding and what did you find difficult?

Thanks for starting this thread glossyp.
1) I got to live in a Fijian village for six months at the longest stint. Okay now it wasn't totally primitive since the nearest town was only a half hour bus ride away. Many villagers had jobs and those that didn't wished they did. We would go shopping for sugar, flour, soaps and sometimes various meats. So my honest answer would be no. I'm too spoiled though I do hope to retire there later on. More on that later.

2) Some thoughts on "Traditional = better". The food is alot healthier, more time with family or at least life goes at your schedule instead of the other way around. I know Fijian men that are in there 70's that are stronger and healthier than most 40 year olds here. Less stress too.

3) "Modern = better". A:Pressured hot and cold, bacteria free water piped right into my abode. Think of always having to bath, wash dishes/laundry and shave in a cold stream (using an old cars rearview mirror to see). B:Electricity. For refridgeration instead of none or for lighting instead of lanterns that sometimes cause fires. Of course Computer, stereo, dvd player connected to the TV. And...
C: Owning a car instead of walking for miles.
D: Buying a chicken at the store instead of having to kill it and prepare it for dinner. I was given that job alot and got good at it, but would rather not.
E: Medicine. Most ways it's better but too many pills in my opinion. Fiji is real 3rd world in this respect.

4) Tell you what I missed most. It was hot showers and cold beer.

5) I worked in other's gardens and went fishing with them. I liked the true community living of barter and share. This week I've got enough to share and next week you help out. I also liked how everyone knew their role within the family and community and fulfilled those expectations.

I believe all lifestyles have struggles and rewards, some harder and others easier. Just different sets of circumstances.

Mrs. Menehune and I have a small house in the village. It's livable, but I want solar panels for electricity and hot water. I sure hope to be able to stay for longer periods of time, but that's just my plan. If God has another, so be it.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

how traditional? Back to caveman, w/o nail clippers and beating my own tapa? Or, on generator and water catchment, like how my husband and I lived the first 10+ together, which was how we raised our first two children? Until today we are the only family we know who lives w/ only one tv, one radio, one bathroom, no a/c, only got cable <2 years ago and for the most part still follow the sun (rise/sleep with it).

[glossyp]

Quoting from the original post: "...relying primarily, if not solely, upon what you can grow, fish, hunt or gather with minimal supplement of other goods" so pretty close to no clippers and beating tapa! Of course, there are degrees between strictly traditional and ultra-modern as demonstrated by your family experience.

[1stwahine]

hmmmm...K-den.

I'm simple. No not Simple Minded.

HAHAHAHAHA

I choose to live modern but can do without many things. Well sort of. I didn't have Cable for the past ten years until today.:D I know how to do without a toilet but rather have one.;) I'll never starve. I can hunt, kill and eat off the land if I have too.

I'm a SURVIVOR.

The ones on the T.V. show are wimps!:p

I've been Rich and I've been PUA.

Best of both worlds I know very well...

Modern Life is for me.

Auntie Lynn

[GnosticWarrior]

I had a boss when I worked at the Post Office who told me that the hardest job he ever had was working in the Lo'i. I myself never lived off the land. Don’t farm, fish or hunt. I do not like crowds and traffic and wish for a slower pace of life but that is never going to be a reality. I’m trying to accept the fact that the liveable land mass of the Earth is going to shrink due to global warming and that population is increasing. So we will always have issues of higher density living.

I do embrace the modern capitalist life. I find it neat that people can earn money, buy goods, pay bills, and communicate with people all over the world, all online without leaving the house! If I had to work the land, I’d like to cultivate Entheogens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Entheogens). I think there is a need for modern day shamans in society. We are lost in the Nation of Confusion. But other than that, I probably would find traditional life harder. I’m not a good physical laborer and I would miss running water and hot showers. A hybrid system taking the best of both would be for me.

[Menehune Man]

One difference between the two that are equally cool, but different is music.

I seriously enjoy the hanging out playing guitars and singing island tunes...
While I also enjoy having a large CD/Tape collection to play on the stereo.

Guess I can have the best of both eh?!

[Miulang]

There are some aspects of traditional life that we may all be forced to endure as the earth's resources disappear and we have to fight just to survive.

If we run out of fuel, there would not only be no cars, but no computers or artificial light, less fresh food (no way to get whatever could be grown to market). If we have less water, we will also be able to grow less food.

Eventually (maybe not in our lifetimes, but certainly within generations), there will be a dieoff of large populations of people around the world due to disease, famine or war. Somehow, Gaia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis) always manages to take care of herself, even as we are bound and determined to destroy her.

Miulang

[glossyp]

There are some aspects of traditional life that we may all be forced to endure as the earth's resources disappear and we have to fight just to survive.

If we run out of fuel, there would not only be no cars, but no computers or artificial light, less fresh food (no way to get whatever could be grown to market). If we have less water, we will also be able to grow less food.

Eventually (maybe not in our lifetimes, but certainly within generations), there will be a dieoff of large populations of people around the world due to disease, famine or war. Somehow, Gaia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis) always manages to take care of herself, even as we are bound and determined to destroy her.

Miulang
Of course you can't just answer the question. If you want to start a thread about impending disasters (manmade or otherwise) and the likely impact, please do so.

[Miulang]

Of course you can't just answer the question. If you want to start a thread about impending disasters (manmade or otherwise) and the likely impact, please do so.
OK, glossyp, just for you: I won't like it, but I will be forced to live a more traditional life in the future. Good enough for you?:p

Miulang

[glossyp]

One difference between the two that are equally cool, but different is music.

I seriously enjoy the hanging out playing guitars and singing island tunes...
While I also enjoy having a large CD/Tape collection to play on the stereo.

Guess I can have the best of both eh?!
Music is truly one of the great joys of life regardless of how it's heard.

I also really liked star gazing and learning to identify constellations, stars, planets, etc. in the night sky. In recent years, counting satellites passing overhead has become part of that experience - low tech finds entertainment from high tech.

[timkona]

Miulang is typical of many myopic liberals. The notion of running out of fuel is rooted in the tunnel vision perception of their hatred for fossil fuels. If you think we will no longer have automobiles after fossil fuels are extinguished, then you are drinking too much Kool-Aid.

We already have lots of transportation alternatives that do not run on fossil fuels. Compressed Air, Electricity, Kinetic Storage, and on and on. How about a candle for light. How about a Sailing Ship to transport food or whatever.

Sorry Miulang. Didn't mean to burst one of your bubbles. But the fossil fuel driven society may end some day. And that won't stop us for a second.

[glossyp]

Miulang is typical of many myopic liberals. The notion of running out of fuel is rooted in the tunnel vision perception of their hatred for fossil fuels. If you think we will no longer have automobiles after fossil fuels are extinguished, then you are drinking too much Kool-Aid.

We already have lots of transportation alternatives that do not run on fossil fuels. Compressed Air, Electricity, Kinetic Storage, and on and on. How about a candle for light. How about a Sailing Ship to transport food or whatever.

Sorry Miulang. Didn't mean to burst one of your bubbles. But the fossil fuel driven society may end some day. And that won't stop us for a second.
Sigh. I tried to stop thread derailment by asking Miulang to just answer the question. I know you feel the need to respond to Miulang (I certainly understand!), but I'll ask you to answer the question/s as well. Perhaps we can open a thread about fossil fuels, alternative energy, the demise of mankind, etc. and battle those questions over there.:)

[Keanu]

I grew up in Kahalu'u, just a simple country boy. My dad would take us fishing and crabbing in Kaneohe bay. We raised pigs and chickens for food. We'd pick fruits like guava right off the tree and crayfish from mountain streams. Life was simple, like my uncle makes reference to in his song "Ku'u Home O Kahalu'u". I have very fond memories of this time of my life. I would prefer to live a traditional life if given the option. I don't know if one way of life could be "superior" to the other because it depends on ones perspective. I would certainly prefer the Hawai'i of old to the Hawai'i of now.

Hawaiians are very attuned to the land and natural resources of these Islands. We are smart enough to realize that we don't "own" the land but rather the land owns us. We are nothing more than stewards, and it's our job to ensure that the land and natural resources of these Islands are protected for future generations. That responsibility is much easier to carry living a traditional life.

[Mililani]

Modern life for me! I'm as old as dirt, so I've been fortunate enough to learn how to live in the "traditional" way. I like that I have a choice!

[Leo Lakio]

Modern now. It will be "traditional" in the future.
What is traditional now was modern then.


(You know what I mean...:p )

[Pomai]

Modern now. It will be "traditional" in the future.
What is traditional now was modern then.

(You know what I mean...)lol

Yeah, just 7 years ago we used 100mb Zip discs to transfer files, in "tradition" of the floppy era. Compared to today's "modern" multi-gigabyte flash drives, CD-Rs and DVD-Rs.

Seriously, my answer to the question is:
1) If it were possible, would you like to live off the land?Yes. I'm a country boy at heart, modern and urbanized only out of circumstance of the environment I'm in.
2) If you believe that a traditional way of life is superior, explain why and in what way.I wouldn't say it's superior, because as you mentioned, it can be difficult, but I imagine it has its merits. I can't say for sure what though, as I've never lived strictly off the land. My mother sort of did when she lived on Parker Ranch, and has fond memories of it, if that's any validation.
3) If you believe modern life is superior, explain why and in what way.Modern life can benefit human health, well being and longevity with the medical and dentistry technology available to day. At the same token, modern foods can be counterproductive to that (preservatives, pesticides, refined sugar (teeth). Also a modern home would protect you much better in the event of a storm or flood than a "traditional" home. Unless you lived in a cave. lol
4) If you are some one who doesn't want to live in a traditional way, but were forced to, what would you miss most about modern life?TV and Internet. Car I can go without. I love to walk, even if it means walking from Waianae to Hawaii Kai. :eek: :D
5) If you have lived off the land, what did you find rewarding and what did you find difficult?Never have, unless you count picking mangoes and growing a few herbs in the garden that. ;)

[GnosticWarrior]

If any of you get the chance Guns, Germs, And Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns%2C_Germs%2C_and_Steel): The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond is an excellent read.

The author suggests that Traditional or Modern, members posses the same level of intelligence. They just applied it differently. Things are the way they are due to environment. Also that traditional societies were not as eco-friendly as we like to believe. There is evidence to suggest that ancient Maori's killed off certain native mammals. Or the evidence of what happened on Easter Island, where religious beliefs caused the people there to cut down too many trees to erect their giant stone structures.

Sorry, I hope this does not distract from the subject.

[Keanu]

If any of you get the chance Guns, Germs, And Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns%2C_Germs%2C_and_Steel): The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond is an excellent read.

The author suggests that Traditional or Modern, members posses the same level of intelligence. They just applied it differently. Things are the way they are due to environment. Also that traditional societies were not as eco-friendly as we like to believe. There is evidence to suggest that ancient Maori's killed off certain native mammals. Or the evidence of what happened on Easter Island, where religious beliefs caused the people there to cut down too many trees to erect their giant stone structures.

Sorry, I hope this does not distract from the subject.


Ah yes...Yali's question about the Haves and the Have nots. It was required reading for my World History and Civilizations course.Although part of the way things are can be contributed the environment (The rise of food production in the Fertile Crescent), there are other factors involved (domestication of animals, metallurgy, weapons and cavalry, transport and communication, writing, political organization etc. of the Haves)

A good read.

[modpirate]

Life was simple, like my uncle makes reference to in his song "Ku'u Home O Kahalu'u".

OMG, I love that song! Your uncle wrote that? My best friend used to live in Kahalu'u, and we used to go around singing it all the time.

Oh yeah, the question. I like to *think* I could live the traditional life, in fact it's one of my goals to try it one day. But I'm realistic enough to know I'll probably fail miserably and go running back to the city.

[Keanu]

OMG, I love that song! Your uncle wrote that? My best friend used to live in Kahalu'u, and we used to go around singing it all the time.




My uncle wrote Ku'u Home O Kahalu'u while in San Francisco (That's what my mom says, Jerry Santos is my mom's youngest brother). I'm glad that Kahalu'u (for the most part) has been able to maintain its simple country persona. I think it's a traditional town. :)

[Pomai]

My uncle wrote Ku'u Home O Kahalu'u while in San Francisco (That's what my mom says, Jerry Santos is my mom's youngest brother). I'm glad that Kahalu'u (for the most part) has been able to maintain its simple country persona. I think it's a traditional town. :)Does Jerry live in Hawaii Kai now? I've seen him at The Shack twice already. I told him "Howzit Jerry" to which he smiled back and said "Eh, Howzit!". :D

I think Henry Kapono lives this side, because I seen him cruisin' the Hawaii Kai Costco a few times with his young Keiki.

I'll have to check out that Guns, Germs and Steel. Sounds like a great read.

[Keanu]

Does Jerry live in Hawaii Kai now? I've seen him at The Shack twice already. I told him "Howzit Jerry" to which he smiled back and said "Eh, Howzit!". :D



Roger that.

Remember the old Primo beer commercial with howzit the dog?... "Eh, how come you neva said howzit to howzit, cause howzit said howzit to you."

[GnosticWarrior]

Ah yes...Yali's question about the Haves and the Have nots. It was required reading for my World History and Civilizations course.Although part of the way things are can be contributed the environment (The rise of food production in the Fertile Crescent), there are other factors involved (domestication of animals, metallurgy, weapons and cavalry, transport and communication, writing, political organization etc. of the Haves)

A good read.

For me, GG&S was a recommended reading by Charlie Munger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Munger). I actually had the book sitting on a shelf for about 3-4 yrs. before I actually read the whole thing. Yes, there were other factors that determined who were the haves and have nots but I still view it as environment. Some did not have the photoperiod to domesticate certain crops, or like how Africa does'nt have animals that can be domesticated. Whatever amenities an area was blessed with determined what evolved later.

What Hawaii needs are country boys with money, with business know how. From what I observed, some lost the country to get the money, and those who are still country don't have much money. Hawaii needs those with both and hopefully you'll be/are one of them. Don't you think this is the only way to protect the land, So that people who are attuned to the land can remain stewards instead of being displaced?

[modpirate]

I'm glad that Kahalu'u (for the most part) has been able to maintain its simple country persona. I think it's a traditional town. :)

I'm glad to hear that. One of the reasons I've avoided going to Hawaii (besides not wanting to be within a thousand miles of my family) is that I knew I'd get totally depressed at all the changes that have inevitably occurred. Nice to know some places are still the same.