Digital Audio Recording & Editing

[Brad White]

Brad, is that your recording/composing setup?

My partner Pierre Grill has Rendezvous Recording.. after so many years of recording in Pierres studio I finally wanted to take advantage of digital recording so I did make a small investment... I am really enjoying it. Even though my setup is very modest I can get some nice sounds... Pierre's the pro though... and with his equipment and mics I still get the best quality..

I did this though in my little studio... using Logic express

panflute & guitar

http://panflute.net/garageband/feature/

Aloha ... brad

[buzz1941]

Curious: Why did you choose Logic instead of something like ProTools? Also, are you on a Mac or PC platform?

[tikiyaki]

Curious: Why did you choose Logic instead of something like ProTools? Also, are you on a Mac or PC platform?

I'll tell you why I did....

As much as I love Pro Tools for Audio wave editing, Logic offers way more in terms of midi, virtual instruments, plug ins, and there is an infinite number of tracks you can use.

Pro Tools LE (the affordable one) you get a mximum amount of tracks at 64, but you have to upgrade. You put about 10 plug ins on a pro tools session, and you run out of CPU....Then if you're running Reason or another rewire type plug in...forget it....

Logic Runs pretty smooth with tons of plug ins, you have apple loops, tons of great Logic virtual instruments,,,,for the money you get SO MUCH more with Logic.

The downside :

Logic is the most ironically named application ever...it's super complicated, and standard audio recording logic does not apply. It has a really big learning curve, and is VERY confusing. There are way too many options on how to do one single action....very annoying

Editing audio waves in Logic S U C K S. MUCH better in Pro Tools.

That beig said....Pro tools LE systems' hardware interfaces don't sound nearly as good as, say, a MOTU 828...I have both...no comparison.

With pro Tools, you can ONLY use THEIR hardware interfaces, where with Logic you can use almost anything.

In the years to come, Logic will push aside Pro tools the same way Final Cut Pro did with Avid....

Anyway...those are MY reasons....

[tikiyaki]

My partner Pierre Grill has Rendezvous Recording.. after so many years of recording in Pierres studio I finally wanted to take advantage of digital recording so I did make a small investment... I am really enjoying it. Even though my setup is very modest I can get some nice sounds... Pierre's the pro though... and with his equipment and mics I still get the best quality..

I did this though in my little studio... using Logic express

panflute & guitar

http://panflute.net/garageband/feature/

Aloha ... brad

Nice work :-)

I have Logic Pro...(see above post)

I'm still getting used to it. :eek:

[buzz1941]

I had forgotten that Apple acquired Logic. I imagine the interface should go back to ease-of-use school.

I've been using a BR-8 and have outgrown it and I'm a guy who likes lots of tracks. Used Peak LE to for basic editing.

Beginning to look around ... would prefer to run it all off my laptop. BTW, the M-Audio MicroTrack is a great way to grab basic live recordings.

[buzz1941]

Now that I think of it, here are a couple of examples of BR-8/Peak demos, in my usual style of turning reality or historical events into pop music:

Johnny's Gone Gone Gone (http://www.pacificmonograph.com/music/Johnny's%20Gone%20Gone%20Gone.mp3)

Madagascar (http://www.pacificmonograph.com/music/Madagascar.mp3)

The Mac was real useful in equalizing and creating the song "envelope." Both are recorded exactly the same way (me goofing around in the living room) but one is mixed in a typical AOR format and the other is supposed to be pretty raw, like a bootleg tape.

[Brad White]

Burl you are an amazing guy... such diverse interests :)

For my own in home recordings I am keeping it simple. I am happy just to have a pretty solo wooden panflute that I can use on my website...

http://panflute.net/pua-lilia/

I've just discovered how good Hawaiian music can sound on a panflute. After all of these years of living here (almost 39 years)

Re Macs... I found Macs just suit my aesthetics best. I like that they look great and allow me to be creative on them. Logic seemed a good choice for me because it had so much potential... not that I have used much of it yet ... brad

[buzz1941]

Is it possible to import ProTools files into Logic?

[tikiyaki]

Is it possible to import ProTools files into Logic?

You can import WAV and AIFF files into Logic....midi files are universal, so those too...

you can't open a pro tools session in Logic, but you CAN save a pro tools file as an OMF (open music file) which will import into Logic...You need a separate plug in that costs like over a thousand dollars (more Pro Tools gouging...that's why I HATE digidesign as a company)

It's a big pain in the butt tho...

Easiest was is to just bring the wav or aif files into Logic....I don't think Logic supports SDII files tho....

[buzz1941]

I have a couple of recording sessions recorded in ProTools, wanted to export into Logic for editing, but wanted to keep the tracks separate.

[tikiyaki]

I have a couple of recording sessions recorded in ProTools, wanted to export into Logic for editing, but wanted to keep the tracks separate.

OK....this is what you need to do.

If the audio regions have ANY edits in them...you must consoidate them into one big region, that starts at "ZERO".....the idea is to have each audio region (track) the exact same length....

Make sure when you name them, you give them easily recognizeable names (for your own sanity)

THEN, you just drag the audio regions into a logic session, and that's it....

BTW....you're better off EDITING in Pro Tools...it's a much better editing software...mix in Logic for sure, but editing ihn Logic just plain sucks....

If you need...PM me and I'll walk you through it (over the phone if necessary)

[buzz1941]

Thanks, I'll likely do that someday. This was from a recording session in which the band was "live," you know, like five mikes on the drums. Just wanted to export and then mix and equalize. The sound quality is good already. It's just mixing. There's no editing: it's a raw take.

In exporting from the BR-8 into Logic, I imagine i'll have to export each channel individually and then cue up.

[buzz1941]

Warning: Learning Curve Ahead

After playing with the interfaces of both, I went with Pro Tools, the baby steps M-Power version.

[tikiyaki]

Thanks, I'll likely do that someday. This was from a recording session in which the band was "live," you know, like five mikes on the drums. Just wanted to export and then mix and equalize. The sound quality is good already. It's just mixing. There's no editing: it's a raw take.

In exporting from the BR-8 into Logic, I imagine i'll have to export each channel individually and then cue up.

Oh.....yea, you might have to line the tracks up, but that will work

[acousticlady]

Love the "track" this thread is taking! Personnally, I'm a pro tools gal. Logic seems to be totally illogical - though it is more cost effective :)

[tikiyaki]

Love the "track" this thread is taking! Personnally, I'm a pro tools gal. Logic seems to be totally illogical - though it is more cost effective :)

When it comes to editing and ease of use, I totally concur acousticlady.... Logic is the most ILLOGICAL audio program out there. Unfortunately, for the intensity of the work I do, it's a necessary evil for me....

I've been using Logic for well over a year now, and I still say "WHY CAN'T THEY DO THIS THE WAY PRO TOOLS DOES IT ???"

It's a very frustrating program sometimes, but also, alot more powerful, when it comes to things like midi and scoring to picture.

For simply recording a band, Pro Tools all the way.

[Leo Lakio]

I've used ProTools in professional settings over the years for album production, but for smaller scale radio projects, I was pleased with Adobe Audition (formerly CoolEdit Pro.) It wasn't my choice to use it, but one of the radio stations where I do projects has it in place, and it was surprisingly flexible. It was easy for the beginners (inexperienced volunteers) to learn, too.

[buzz1941]

Yeah, I'm glad this has its own thread now.

Yes, I've jumped into Pro Tools, a total newbie. Getting it set up in my computer is proving surprisingly difficult. For one thing, I didn't read the bottom line and realize that it won't work unless I also purchase some M-Audio appropriate hardware.

Also, it uses a dongle! For Chrissakes!

[tikiyaki]

Yeah, I'm glad this has its own thread now.

Yes, I've jumped into Pro Tools, a total newbie. Getting it set up in my computer is proving surprisingly difficult. For one thing, I didn't read the bottom line and realize that it won't work unless I also purchase some M-Audio appropriate hardware.

Also, it uses a dongle! For Chrissakes!

Yes...See Logic will work without an aoudio interface....

Dude...You have a MAC ? Use Garage band...it comes installed in a Mac. If not, iLife is like $50...it comes with garage Band. For what you're doing, Garage band should work fine.

[acousticlady]

I've used the MBox for awhile now and really like it as a cheap alternative for interfaces. We are upgrading our computers and I was eligible for the academic version of MBox 2. Apparently there is an issue with the firmware and now I have to send it back to Digidesign. There also may be an issue with compatability with G4's, They're not sure yet....... Luckily, where I want it is on my powerbook so that shouldn't be a problem. I just can't believe they'd put it on the market without checking that!

[tikiyaki]

I've used the MBox for awhile now and really like it as a cheap alternative for interfaces. We are upgrading our computers and I was eligible for the academic version of MBox 2. Apparently there is an issue with the firmware and now I have to send it back to Digidesign. There also may be an issue with compatability with G4's, They're not sure yet....... Luckily, where I want it is on my powerbook so that shouldn't be a problem. I just can't believe they'd put it on the market without checking that!

These companies don't care...much like Apple, they beta test their products on the eager, paying, but unsuspecting public...Apple is UBER guilty of this.

My rule for anything Apple...never buy anything that just came out...give it 6 months, because they work the bugs out on paying customers...
It's way bogus, but,it's how it is.

[acousticlady]

These companies don't care...much like Apple, they beta test their products on the eager, paying, but unsuspecting public...Apple is UBER guilty of this.

My rule for anything Apple...never buy anything that just came out...give it 6 months, because they work the bugs out on paying customers...
It's way bogus, but,it's how it is.

Yeah - you'd think I'd learn. At least I knew enough not to order Leopard and stick with Tiger on the new systems.

[Palolo Joe]

I've dabbled in recording some family kanikapila sessions with multiple mics... used Audacity to edit the .wav files and Garage Band to put it all together.

Oh, and iTunes to burn copies for everybody.

All free software, and it sounded "good" enough for us common folk.

Sometimes you don't need a Ferrari when a Kia will get you there just the same.

[acousticlady]

I've dabbled in recording some family kanikapila sessions with multiple mics... used Audacity to edit the .wav files and Garage Band to put it all together.

Oh, and iTunes to burn copies for everybody.

All free software, and it sounded "good" enough for us common folk.

Sometimes you don't need a Ferrari when a Kia will get you there just the same.

You are absolutely right that these programs work well for people who are just starting out or only plan on making "home" recordings. I think these programs and others like them are great in that they introduce the "common folk" (your words) to recording techniques and let's you get your feet wet. However, you just get the basics with these programs. I am not familiar with Audacity but I'm guessing the sample rate is rather low. and the editing tools are limited. It's one of those things where in the beginning the free or cheap versions are "cool" and once you really get into it, you gotta have the Ferrari!

[Palolo Joe]

You are absolutely right that these programs work well for people who are just starting out or only plan on making "home" recordings. I think these programs and others like them are great in that they introduce the "common folk" (your words) to recording techniques and let's you get your feet wet. However, you just get the basics with these programs. I am not familiar with Audacity but I'm guessing the sample rate is rather low. and the editing tools are limited. It's one of those things where in the beginning the free or cheap versions are "cool" and once you really get into it, you gotta have the Ferrari!

Just looked at Audacity... I've got the default recording sample rate at 44100 Hz with a 32-bit float. There are more than two dozen effects available.

You get what you pay for, no doubt.

But I'm happy with free. And more importantly, my family was happy with the CDs they got. Even printed labels and jewel case inserts to make them feel like rockstars.

[tikiyaki]

I've dabbled in recording some family kanikapila sessions with multiple mics... used Audacity to edit the .wav files and Garage Band to put it all together.

Oh, and iTunes to burn copies for everybody.

All free software, and it sounded "good" enough for us common folk.

Sometimes you don't need a Ferrari when a Kia will get you there just the same.

I agree wholeheartedly...Actually, even the most "simple" recording software is probably 10 times more powerful than most people even know....so that KIA really has a porsche engine under the hood, but most people don't know how to really unlock the power.

A program I highly recommend to people who are just starting out, or who don't know too much about audio recording is Tracktion 2 (http://www.mackie.com/products/tracktion2/splash.html) (or 3) by Mackie. Very simple, as powerful as most of the other stuff....nice graphic interface....decent plug ins.

I have it but unfortunately, it ran buggy on my system, so I couldn't rely on it....I need something that won't interrupt my work flow,especially when I need to get it done fast. I'm sure that with Tracktion 3, they fixed the bugs, and I know it has ALOT more features, like loop support (AppleLoops, REX etc) and it really is a great program.

Tracktion 2 cost me about $150. Tracktion 3 is about $300...Very powerful for that amount of money.

I sometimes consider switching to it, but I'm just starting to get a grip on Logic....

[Leo Lakio]

That's one of the real joys of digital recording technology - with relatively inexpensive software...hell, even with the FREE stuff discussed here, anyone can create decent quality recording projects without having a huge budget. A lot of home studios abound now for more "pro" projects, and talented ears can team up with great musicians (not mutually exclusive either) to get their sounds out and available to more people, quickly and affordably.

[acousticlady]

That's one of the real joys of digital recording technology - with relatively inexpensive software...hell, even with the FREE stuff discussed here, anyone can create decent quality recording projects without having a huge budget. A lot of home studios abound now for more "pro" projects, and talented ears can team up with great musicians (not mutually exclusive either) to get their sounds out and available to more people, quickly and affordably.

The music industry is changing rapidily because of this. Especially for the middle of the road studios. Not that they are all going out of business - it's just changing. A guy I know used to concentrate on producing new talent but now does mostly voice-over work. Ya still gotta pay the bills.

Love the line about talented ears teaming up with great musicians.......

[acousticlady]

I've used the MBox for awhile now and really like it as a cheap alternative for interfaces. We are upgrading our computers and I was eligible for the academic version of MBox 2. Apparently there is an issue with the firmware and now I have to send it back to Digidesign. There also may be an issue with compatability with G4's, They're not sure yet....... Luckily, where I want it is on my powerbook so that shouldn't be a problem. I just can't believe they'd put it on the market without checking that!

Update...... The new MBoxes and Pro Tools 7.3 are not compatabile with the G4 Power PC's but they are compatabile with the G4 Intel. Protools 7.3 seems to have a few quirks but are fixable. You have to download a patch from apple if you have OS x 4.9 and an update from DigiDesign for 7.3.1.

[craigwatanabe]

When I transistioned from analog to digital recording, one thing I discovered was that with digital, your peaks should be at 0-attenuation and not go into positive db levels like analog.

For me I used Cool Edit and Sound Forge back in the 90's for digital editing.

[acousticlady]

When I transistioned from analog to digital recording, one thing I discovered was that with digital, your peaks should be at 0-attenuation and not go into positive db levels like analog.


I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Mic sensitivity levels are expressed in negative dB's and should be set according to the room you are recording in as well as the instrument(s) being recorded (i.e. the frequency range). The more negative the level, the less sensitive the mic response is. Positive dB's are generally used to express the output.

you are correct in saying you should not go into positive dB levels for recording - that is unless you are recording a pin drop. :) But that is not a digital thing and shouldn't matter - assuming you are using the same mic. Different types of mics would require different levels, too. But in all cases, the response or attenuation is analog. When we speak of an analog recording, we are referring to how it is stored (tape) after the signal is produced. In the old days (10 yrs ago) you would record to tape and then convert the signal into digital by means of a DAT machine in order to edit, burn, etc. The digitized signal is then sent to the computer. Digital recording cuts out the middle man and sends the analog signal from the mic directly to the computer which samples the incoming signal.

Probably more info than you need or wanted, but sometimes I just can't help myself. :cool:

[tikiyaki]

I know what Craig is referring to...He's talking about the "old days" of Analog mixers and tape, where you could hit the meters at WAY hard, past zero, and you'd get tape saturation, which in analog, usually sounds ok, eveh desireable. Now with digital you have to stay negative of zero or you will get digital clipping which sounds ugly.

I do alot of mastering and I can tell you that alot of people don't keep their level under zero, and really end up with lots of distortion. I can't tell you how many records I have to send back for remixes because of this. Mostly people who just learned Pro tools and don't even create a master fader in their mix sessions....Then when I tell them how to do it, they discover their signal is red all the way.

Sometimes this can be fixed with a stereo compressor put across the master fader, and then just lowering the output....sometimes it's way too much input and all the separate tracks have to be lowered.

[craigwatanabe]

That's precisely what I meant. Back in the old days in order to get better dynamic range you had to saturate your levels. That's why we had weighting scales on the VU meters for either Average or Peak readings.

The old DBX systems used to monitor amplitudes and correct as needed and made for some impressive audio recordings back in the 70's, then Dolby, Dolby Pro and Dolby HX made DBX virtually obsolete. Today when you hear the word Dolby, you don't think of compression anymore but surround sound encoding/decoding.

When I used to do analog recordings the single best rack device I loved was the Compander. Great tool for putting a lot of dimension in an otherwise flat recording. Another was the Aural Exciter.

[craigwatanabe]

In the old days (10 yrs ago) you would record to tape and then convert the signal into digital by means of a DAT machine in order to edit, burn, etc. The digitized signal is then sent to the computer. Digital recording cuts out the middle man and sends the analog signal from the mic directly to the computer which samples the incoming signal.

Probably more info than you need or wanted, but sometimes I just can't help myself. :cool:

Even with today's digital recording consoles, the mic's analog signal is still sent to an analog pre-amp for equalization. The equalized signal is then reinterpreted via a sampling rate to convert to digital waveforms that a binary computer can read. The higher the sampling rate the better the resolution of the sound.

The only difference between digital and analog systems is where this pre-amped signal is recorded onto. One of the first digital recording systems was Sony's PCM (Pulse Coded Modulation) system but because the sampling rate was so low, audio at the higher frequencies would sound buzzy because the sample rate was sometimes the same (or a harmonic) as the audio frequency being sampled and attenuation occured cutting the highs in and out.

Regarding the mic's sensitivity, yes I agree that the mic needs to be equalized to the room, typically thru the use of a white noise generator to maximize the characteristics of it's diaphragm's limitations.

Once those sound pressures are mapped and eq'd then the mic can do what it was designed to do at or near 100% efficiency.

[acousticlady]

The only difference between digital and analog systems is where this pre-amped signal is recorded onto. One of the first digital recording systems was Sony's PCM (Pulse Coded Modulation) system but because the sampling rate was so low, audio at the higher frequencies would sound buzzy because the sample rate was sometimes the same (or a harmonic) as the audio frequency being sampled and attenuation occured cutting the highs in and out.


:D and I was afraid of getting too technical........ but essentially, that is what I was saying. What you are referring to with the sample rate is the Nyquist theorem (sp?) which says that the sample rate should be at least 2x the highest frequency being recorded. Since the human ear can hear up 20,000 hz, the sample rate has to be greater than 40,000 samples/sec. which is why 44,000 is standard. (we'll talk 88,000 another time :)).

Tiki - I had a whole paragraph on "seeing red" but thought twice about it. That is one of my pet peeves! The other being anything "out of tune" - despite the fact that tuning systems (like dB's) are relative measures. A good example of this is The Fray - can't listen to um :eek:

2 other discussions we could go into if anyone is up for it - the joys of FFTs and is there such a thing as perfect pitch.

[GeckoGeek]

The other being anything "out of tune" - despite the fact that tuning systems (like dB's) are relative measures.


I discovered that tuning isn't that simple a thing. There's stretched tuning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning)

[craigwatanabe]

That's why to me the best mechanism to tune an instrument is an oscilloscope where you can actually see the resonant and harmonic frequencies that impact the reed or string.

Today's modern electronic tuners do just that, by keeping a memory of the sine waveform for that note, when your instrument's pitch reaches that waveform's signature, a light comes on or a tuning needle on a meter center's itself to a null position indicating an "In-phase" or properly tuned condition. Basically an And Gate function where two signals are similar allowing the gate to pass a binary "One".

[acousticlady]

That's why to me the best mechanism to tune an instrument is an oscilloscope where you can actually see the resonant and harmonic frequencies that impact the reed or string.

Today's modern electronic tuners do just that, by keeping a memory of the sine waveform for that note, when your instrument's pitch reaches that waveform's signature, a light comes on or a tuning needle on a meter center's itself to a null position indicating an "In-phase" or properly tuned condition. Basically an And Gate function where two signals are similar allowing the gate to pass a binary "One".

Exactly! Craig, what is your background?

[kamapuaa]

Update...... The new MBoxes and Pro Tools 7.3 are not compatabile with the G4 Power PC's but they are compatabile with the G4 Intel. Protools 7.3 seems to have a few quirks but are fixable. You have to download a patch from apple if you have OS x 4.9 and an update from DigiDesign for 7.3.1.

Not to split hairs too much, but there is no such thing as a "G4 Intel". Also, digidesign's site indicates that they do still support "qualified" powerpc processors. They're not specific, but I suspect that means later G4 chips, as well as G5's. :)

[acousticlady]

Not to split hairs too much, but there is no such thing as a "G4 Intel". Also, digidesign's site indicates that they do still support "qualified" powerpc processors. They're not specific, but I suspect that means later G4 chips, as well as G5's. :)

Oops - my bad. :o Make that iMac w/ intel dual core 2 duo. Just so used to referring to my lab computers as G4's to differentiate between the G5's and the few PC's scattered about. Bad habit. And yes, digidesign does support "qualified" powerpc's. But if you are running OS X 10.3.9 or so you are out of luck (or you use an earlier version of Pro Tools).

[craigwatanabe]

Exactly! Craig, what is your background?

My electronics background stems from the USAF's work in phase relationships. Phasing was what I did with power supplies, amplifiers, resonators, inverters (oops that one's top secret),converters and emitters.

I specialized in high frequency (microwave) phase inversion technology. We dabbled in light frequency in the infra-red spectrum and eventually in visible light spectrum. The military applications were immense that lead to some very advanced defensive systems in use today.

Let's just say we took the ALQ-99 to a higher and more active level of radar evasion.:cool: