Offensive Letter To The Editor About Puna [Archive]

Konaguy

May 28th, 2007, 06:28 PM

I noticed a very offensive letter to the editor in the HTH on Sunday. In short this Hilo resident said people living in Puna are whiners because they are complaining about a lack of infrastructure.

http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/articles/2007/05/27/opinion/your_views/letters03.txt

I read the recent Tribune-Herald stories about Puna's road and traffic problems, and the state Department of Transportation's plans to improve them.

It seems like there was a lot of whining during those meetings about the roads. It's as if the people of Puna awakened recently (and suddenly) to the realization that they live ... IN PUNA!

People, why did you move to Puna if you wanted all the services and amenities (and roads) offered by a place that's a little less rural, such as Hilo? Didn't you pay a lot less to buy property there? Didn't you want to live a more rural lifestyle? There's a reason Puna has always been cheaper than "the city," you know. Less infrastructure!

Lei K

May 28th, 2007, 06:37 PM

What exactly is offensive about this letter?

Palolo Joe

May 28th, 2007, 06:40 PM

Why exactly do you find it offensive?

The guy's got a pretty good point.

Konaguy

May 28th, 2007, 06:41 PM

What exactly is offensive about this letter?
Implying that people living Puna are whiners. Puna residents pay taxes also and deserve adequate infrastructure like any other part of the island.

Why exactly do you find it offensive?

The guy's got a pretty good point.I disagree why should areas like Hilo have great infrastructure. When areas like Kona, Kohala and Puna are stuck with inadequate infrastructure.In short the guy is saying we should all move to Hilo if we want great infrastructure and services.

joshuatree

May 28th, 2007, 07:32 PM

Implying that people living Puna are whiners. Puna residents pay taxes also and deserve adequate infrastructure like any other part of the island.

I think the person who wrote the piece may be a little blunt but I don't find anything wrong. You are right that Puna residents pay taxes too but I don't think their amount of taxes would cover infrastructure to reach all the way out to Puna and be at the same quality level as in town like Hilo's. It's like the guy living out in the middle of nowhere, up on a hill, and expecting police, paramedics, or firefighters to have the same response time as in the city.

Lei K

May 28th, 2007, 07:43 PM

Aaron, I guess it boils down to everybody is gonna have an opinion. You and Tim can come off a bit harsh too about the politics around your neck of the woods.

I'm not sure I see this letter as being offensive. I'm kinda with this guy (or girl) in thinking that if you live country you know you are giving up some things for a rural life. If you don't like country life, then sell and move to somewhere that fits your needs better. At least that's how I think.

Konaguy

May 28th, 2007, 09:25 PM

I guess for me what bothers me is the fact that Hilo has shafted the rest of the Big Island infrastructure wise. This letter is just another nail in the coffin to that fact. Bottom line is this fact, there is a huge disparity infrastructure wise between Hilo and the rest of the island. The ugly part of this is the fact that whenever someone complains about this, they are called a whiner.

I know my politics are not popular. But this aint no popularity contest. I call it as I see it. What I see is everywhere outside of Hilo is getting shafted.

timkona

May 29th, 2007, 08:11 AM

Let's be honest. Folks in Puna are not known for their rationality or their intellect. Check out their council representative if you need further proof. Like a poster child for the illiteracy movement.

sinjin

May 29th, 2007, 08:38 AM

What's wrong with wanting good roads even in the rural parts of the island? Kona's problems are about rapid/rampant development. Puna's are more about neglect. The expectaions of new residents with respect to roads whether in the east or west are similarly motivated as I see it.

timkona

May 29th, 2007, 08:50 AM

Low Density Development is the basic problem in Puna. Roads and infrastructure cost a certain amount per mile, or per 'whatever'.

When you have less people in an area, it costs more, per person, to put in those improvements. If densities were higher, more people per acre, then the cost, per person, would be less.

Hokulia and Puna are very similar land uses. Everybody has an acre or more. But the folks at Hokulia got the bucks to run water and sewer all that distance.

Puna is a terrifying misuse of land the same way as Hokulia. In the long run, if we continue to spread out, and everybody needs a SFR, then we will turn Big Island into Orange County.

"But tall buildings scare me cuz I'm ignorant."

sinjin

May 29th, 2007, 08:53 AM

Modern highways in low density States have always been subsidized by high density States. Nothing new. Same principle.

buzz1941

May 29th, 2007, 09:32 AM

Modern highways in low density States have always been subsidized by high density States. Nothing new. Same principle.

Yep, socialism at work!

My brother is a farmer in Puna. He moved there to get away from the big-city life in Hilo. He refers to it as the Wild West. He only got electricity a few years ago. He does not expect big-city amenities.

I'm more fascinated to learn that Hilo has fantastic infrastructure.

sinjin

May 29th, 2007, 09:37 AM

Yep, socialism at work!

My brother is a farmer in Puna. He moved there to get away from the big-city life in Hilo. He refers to it as the Wild West. He only got electricity a few years ago. He does not expect big-city amenities.

I'm more fascinated to learn that Hilo has fantastic infrastructure.Actually federalism at work. I too find it funny to think of Hilo as well-appointed in the infrastructure department.

Pua'i Mana'o

May 29th, 2007, 10:21 AM

1) what does "adequate infrastructure" mean?

2) where are the new subdivisions in Hilo? Outside of Kaumana Uuuuuuka, there's nothing new going on. This may well change when the forest between Waiakea Uka <--> Kaumana opens up for new development, but barring that, Hilo itself qualifes as a maturing city.

3)Something funky about Kea'au: Shipman couldn't get a light approved at their Shipman Park entrance/exit which is on the Pana'ewa Stretch (that part of the hwy that is several miles long and separates Hilo from Puna) by the County Council. Talk about a big lawsuit waiting to happen, when that big accident between slow-moving rig gets T-boned by the auto-barrelling@60mph. Shipman is going to have to open up their 3-way light into a full intersection at the Kea'au bypass, after they develop more roads from behind Shipman Park into that area. Big plans, millions at stake, and lots of prayers that the Accident™ doesn't happen before then.

On the other hand, why Shipman doesn't open up Railroad Ave so that Puna has a ma kai road is beyond me. They catch the blame for an obvious solution.

Further, Kea'au is stupid. They have a loser mall anchored by an inethical supermarket that gouges their customers. There is a pawn shop and a bar across the street of their middle school. In fact, Kea'au could be beautiful, with a strong pedestrian footprint, as there are several school complexes w/in 1 mile of the town. I mean "middle-class" beautiful. There is a lot of wealth in Puna, regardless of the reputation given by the "wild wild west" nick.

Finally, for years and years, each district bled while the county remained in the black, soley for the sale of cheap land in Puna. Puna deserves more than it gets. I agree with Aaron.

tikiyaki

May 29th, 2007, 11:10 AM

This is a question, not a statment of sarcasm....

Could it be that the people who live in PUNA are called whiners becasue many of them are newly arrived mainlanders who bought and built there, and whom are used to the (possibly) more solid infrastructres of where they moved FROM ?

Visit www.punaweb.org, read the forums and see how many people living there are from more "established" mainland towns and cities, who wanted to live in "paradise"...retirees,etc.... These people most likely want the same level of infrastructure they were used to in their former hometowns, and PUNA maybe just isn't quite there yet.

Many people live there, completely off the grid, in unpermitted housing, as well as the people doing it by the book, making it sort of a transitional area.
Most people in that punaweb forum really love it there tho', and deal with some of it's inconveniences, tho' there is alot of outcry as well.

sinjin

May 29th, 2007, 11:15 AM

Could it be that the people who live in PUNA are called whiners becasue many of them are newly arrived mainlanders who bought and built there, and whom are used to the (possibly) more solid infrastructres of where they moved FROM ?

Visit www.punaweb.org, read the forums and see how many people living there are from more "established" mainland towns and cities, who wanted to live in "paradise"...retirees,etc.... These people most likely want the same level of infrastructure they were used to in their former hometowns, and PUNA maybe just isn't quite there yet.I think you're right and that's why I said that complaints about roads/traffic on both sides of the island are similarly motivated.

tikiyaki

May 29th, 2007, 11:20 AM

Actually federalism at work. I too find it funny to think of Hilo as well-appointed in the infrastructure department.

What do you mean by this exactly ?

Just curious, as I'm looking into purchasing a place there.

Pua'i Mana'o

May 29th, 2007, 11:35 AM

no. The Punatics compound the problem, but are nowhere near the root of it. Railroad Ave goes from the heart of Hilo to Kapoho and has for decades, but Shipman Industries cut off the x-miles that they own of it.

Majority of the subdivisions are "private", so the landowners there chip in to have their gravel roads repaved periodically after the potholes grow too big. For the same reason, police do not patrol the areas and only come in when someone calls 911.

Helco has done a lot in the last two decades to get power into those subdivisions, which for decades prior meant that if you wanted light, you bought your own generator. The county hasn't stepped up to that plate with water lines, tho.

In the county's defense, someone wrote a grant to get public transportation free, but the buses do not go in to the subdivisions. Imagine what that means on the mauka road, where lots are 3acres a piece, roads are 1mile apart and directions including counting telephone poles by the tens.

In other words, your subdivision might be ten miles from town, but your home is ten miles in from the hwy.

Tired of living like 2nd class citizens in Puna, a lot of those residents have helped push the real estate up in Hilo town, again because there aren't any new developments outside of Kaumana City (rinkidink lot sizes, water catchment, traffic snarls in the a.m. to get anywhere...it isn't any different, even in the socio-economics of the developers and renters).

sinjin

May 29th, 2007, 11:53 AM

What do you mean by this exactly ?

Just curious, as I'm looking into purchasing a place there.My limited experience of Hilo has given me the impression that it is a quaint, aging, somewhat rundown town. Don't get me wrong, I like it very much and would certainly consider living there. Of course I'm aging and a bit rundown myself.

tikiyaki

May 29th, 2007, 12:20 PM

My limited experience of Hilo has given me the impression that it is a quaint, aging, somewhat rundown town. Don't get me wrong, I like it very much and would certainly consider living there. Of course I'm aging and a bit rundown myself.

LOL...

It is quaint and aging, but as we both know from living in SoCal....the secret eventually gets out, and those dogs have their day, and then that all changes for the better, or worse, depending on your P.O.V.

buzz1941

May 29th, 2007, 12:41 PM

The ironic thing is, my brother is finding Puna too genteel, and he bitches about the "rich hippies who don't contribute" constantly.

Next year, he and the Missus are moving to Colorado, building a log cabin and are going off the grid.

tikiyaki

May 29th, 2007, 12:57 PM

buzz1941

May 29th, 2007, 01:15 PM

Yikes..Genteel....does he wear a loincloth and kill his own food with a spear too ? :p

No, but he works two jobs in addition to the farm and people keep trying to hire him away. He has an engrained work ethic that keeps him sweating all day long and into the evenings. Seems that most people don't move to Puna to become laborers.

His first house there he built himself, while he lived in a tent. Around it, he restored an ancient mango grove. He sold it to a retired gay couple who loved the craftsmanship of the house. Their only addition was to add a swimming pool (!!!!)

And occasionally the pet pigs on the farm do wind up on the dinner table.

Konaguy

May 29th, 2007, 05:12 PM

I think you're right and that's why I said that complaints about roads/traffic on both sides of the island are similarly motivated.

Yes with more people moving here you hear more people growling about the traffic issues in Kohala, Kona and Puna. But that these dissuade the fact the Hilo has shafted the rest of the island for years. I've seen, I've lived through it living here my entire life.

I've re-read the letter in question. It seems this person wants to deny people living in Puna safe roads. Highway 130 is deathtrap and a traffic nightmare. I guess the only
way changes will be done is more people sue the state after they get injured in accidents on Highway 130. Its the only way change happens, when it hits them in the pocketbook.

Konaguy

May 29th, 2007, 05:19 PM

I'm more fascinated to learn that Hilo has fantastic infrastructure.

Food for thought, East Hawaii has had three new roads built since 1999.Yes one of them has been the Keaau Bypass. But thats its overall. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see Hilo has far superior infrastructure than the rest of the island. They have more parks, better roads (which get paved more often than the rest of the island). In short there is a huge disparity here.

Your probably going to ask if I support splitting this island into counties. I don't think that is good idea. There is too much political roadblocks that would block this. But I may change my mind unless some selfish opinions are changed.

Pua'i Mana'o

May 29th, 2007, 05:53 PM

Aaron, I agree with your basic premise, but I have to tell you, Hilo looks the way it did 100+ yrs ago. Take a good look at the map hanging in Cronies and you will see that it is still the same structure, and follows the same major road veins and with the exception of Komohana, I don't see a single new major roadway (how do I know this? I have a copy of the same map).

Waiakea Uka and Kaumana did develop since then. Ask *anyone* who lives there about traffic snarls, accidents waiting to happen, how many fatal accidents happened before two traffic lights got installed (one each). For giggles, stay in each area overnight and leave the house between 6-8am and see what I mean.

I want to say that the whole dang island is doing a piss-poor job at urban planning. I'd bet that all of the towns are still following 100 yr old blueprints. (Tim! You're up, dude!
Bismillah! we will not let you go-let me go
Will not let you go-let me go
Will not let you go let me go...
<this is the part where Tim sings...oh I'll let him do it>

Big Island needs to think hard on the rail now. connect all four sides of the isle and hub it at the Saddle (the big question: which side should the Ka'u rail be on? Will Mauna Loa blow on the Puna side and head for Hilo, or threaten Miloli'i again? Hmm...need a geo study).

timkona

May 29th, 2007, 06:11 PM

What am I up for? I'm ready.

"Caramia, Caramia, Beelzebub has a devil for a whore
Poor Me, Poor Me, Poor MEEEEEEE" (Champagne glass cracking)

or something like that. I think I'm too young to know.

But I know that Big Island will never have decent planning or ANY infrastructure until the protesting/activist boomers die off, and my generation (X) is able to start building stuff without all the red tape. It's only gonna be another 10 years, and hopefully things won't be too badly destroyed by then.

Leo Lakio

May 29th, 2007, 06:39 PM

"Caramia, Caramia, Beelzebub has a devil for a whore
Poor Me, Poor Me, Poor MEEEEEEE" (Champagne glass cracking)

or something like that. I think I'm too young to know.
"Mamma mia, mamma mia, mamma mia, let me go.
Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me...for me...for MEEEEEEE."
But I like your version, too.

timkona

May 29th, 2007, 06:45 PM

Sorry Leo. Just showing my age. Which is the main reason why nobody ever listens to me. (Especially when I'm right, and they disagree.)

Konaguy

May 29th, 2007, 07:05 PM

Leo Lakio

May 29th, 2007, 07:20 PM

Sorry Leo. Just showing my age. Which is the main reason why nobody ever listens to me. (Especially when I'm right, and they disagree.)Trust me, Tim - even when I disagree, I listen to you. I listen, and I think about what you say. Maybe I don't always "get it," but I can see that you are no fool.

joshuatree

May 29th, 2007, 09:11 PM

Here's an idea regarding road infrastructure at least. Obviously, the population to land area of the Big Isle is a lopsided ratio. So, instead of trying to figure out how to stretch the local tax dollar to accommodate every road infrastructure desired, how about luring a private firm to build and maintain the major arteries that connect the towns. They basically own it for like 30/40 years and charge a toll. Then the local tax dollars can be used to focus on the local roads in each town. Think the people of Hawaii would dig that? Countries like Australia do this because obviously, there's no way a population of 21 million would generate enough tax revenue to build out an interstate system on a continent the size of the 48 states. The Big Isle is like a microcosm of that scenario.

craigwatanabe

May 29th, 2007, 09:52 PM

Man off for a weekend and look at the talk!

Okay I live in Puna and am a recent transplant from Honolulu. I read that editorial (thanks Aaron for that email link) and at first I was a bit offended, but as I read it I realized that me moving to Keaau was part of the ongoing problem of increased traffic along the Pahoa Highway corridor.

But being from Honolulu, I don't complain about the traffic because quite frankly...I'm used to it.

As for the whiners being the mainland transplants, I don't think they're the whiners here. It's those who've lived in Puna BEFORE the sudden growth and the disintegration of their lifestyle by newcomers like myself.

And it is those people who do have a legitimate reason to complain.

The demographics of Pahoa itself is changing dramatically. Headstart down in Hawaiian Beaches subdivision is seeing a reduction of qualified families as those who rented in that subdivision are being squeezed out by a richer population growth in that area.

I don't call it whining but I do call it legitimate concerns that if the County of Hawaii allowed people to buy and build (construction permits) homes that ultimately fill the County's financial coffers to the brim with increased property tax revenue, those who contributed to that increase should benefit from it as well. We aren't. As we continue to grow in lower Puna, where are the property tax monies going? Kahakai BLVD hasn't changed at all and remains the most dangerous intersection in the STATE OF HAWAII.

When the growth exceeded the capacity of the multiple water spigots along Pahoa Highway near Orchardland what did the County do? Moved it down the road towards Pahoa and added a few more spigots. This was their answer to increased growth?

As for Railroad Avenue, that would have been a great idea for expansion however the obstical wasn't from the County...it was from those living along that corridor that opposed to it's expansion. I also heard that Railroad Avenue isn't exactly a road at all but an easement.

What do I think? Yes I do believe Railroad should be connected and widened to handle the growth of HPP. We do need an alternate route out of this area.

And yes we do need to widen Pahoa Highway in both directions. The bottleneck that occurs at the Girl Scout lodge is a major pain (two lanes merging to one).

The concern was that with the widening, along would be more reckless drivers. I stand corrected when in a previous thread I said the worst drivers come from the Big Island. I'll fine tune that statement a bit...the worst come from my neck of the woods (Keaau/Pahoa).

To correct that we need more traffic enforcement with patrol officers monitoring traffic speeds along that corridor in both directions.

I think with the added tax revenue from this area alone could justify increasing the Puna Police precinct.

Yes Puna has changed and has lost some of it's boonieness, but it has changed and along with that there must be something done to make the commute easier. Yes we moved in to Puna and yes we may be the one's complaining however we are the ones that brought in the tax revenue so we should benefit from it.

And I do feel for those in West Hawaii who have brought in the lion's share of tax revenue for the County of Hawaii yet have seen East Hawaii benefit from it's income.

buzz1941

May 29th, 2007, 11:11 PM

Actually, Hilo seems to be in better shape than Honolulu.

oceanpacific

May 30th, 2007, 01:33 AM

Railroad Avenue is a few hundred yards away from our old homestead in the Panaewa farmlots subdivision. We used to use it as the backroad to the county dump, passing the East Kawailani extension along the way. Puainako Street by the present-day Prince Kuhio Plaza did not exist back then.

We saw the old maps indicating that RR Avenue extended to Keeau, but we never followed it in that direction.

TuNnL

May 30th, 2007, 01:49 AM

...how about luring a private firm to build and maintain the major arteries that connect the towns. They basically own it for like 30/40 years and charge a toll. Then the local tax dollars can be used to focus on the local roads in each town. Think the people of Hawaii would dig that?This is nothing new, as the Hawai‘i Automobile Dealers Association (HADA) has been pushing this idea for some time. HADA Executive Director David Rolf wrote an interesting commentary (http://starbulletin.com/2006/10/01/editorial/special.html) in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin that goes in-depth on the various system in place worldwide, and how such a scenario would apply to O‘ahu. He even bills it as an alternative to rail transit. :eek:

craigwatanabe

May 30th, 2007, 02:07 AM

You can't really take Railroad ave all the way from Panaewa to HPP because the road's been blocked off with boulders. My Dad in the late 30's told me that there was a railroad (hence Railroad Avenue) that took sugar cane from the sugar mill in Keaau back to Hilo along that route.

Railroad is the most obvious route to and from HPP and Hilo and I think it will be the road to pick.

Above the Pahoa Highway should be another route thru Road 9 that cuts thru Hawaiian Acres. This route will allow people from that subdivision a route to Hilo cutting right thru the Keaau Ag lots and feeding either to Volcano Highway at Kamehameha School or continue thru to Keaau Town.

With these three routes, traffic congestion should reduce itself with Railroad handling HPP traffic, Pahoa Highway covering Pahoa town and Road 9 taking care of Hawaiian Acres, Ainaloa and Orchardland.

Pua'i Mana'o

May 30th, 2007, 09:52 AM

Puainako Extension- Construction started late 2001 completed late 2004.
http://starbulletin.com/2004/09/22/news/story8.html

Mohouli Street extension
http://starbulletin.com/2002/04/16/news/story10.html

Keaau Bypass
http://starbulletin.com/98/11/23/news/story10.html

Puainako and Mohouli extensions were on the books since before either of us were born, Aaron, and look at why: Kaumana is home now to over half of Hilo's population and they had only one road in/out, plus said road is all over lava tubes with no ability to be widened. And it still took 30+ years to build those two roads! And Keaau bypass was the genius of Arakaki, who found fed funds because the Y is within x miles of an international airport. And, like I began earlier, that bypass is only a 3-way, with the eventual plans to turn it into a full intersection to be borne by Shipman, who are still drumming up the anchor businesses required to fund those developments that will allow them the capital needed for those road improvements so that (deep inhale) the big rigs that are held hostage at Shipman Park can manueuver in/out safely will have the luxury of a traffic light to do so, as the county denied Shipman putting one in on the Panaewa stretch.

Konaguy

May 30th, 2007, 02:09 PM

Yes I am aware that those roads were planned to be built for eons. But my point is they were built nonetheless and no other major roads have been built during
this time elsewhere on the island.

Pua'i Mana'o

May 30th, 2007, 02:43 PM

Yes I am aware that those roads were planned to be built for eons. But my point is they were built nonetheless and no other major roads have been built during
this time elsewhere on the island.

You are telling me that all that area around Ka'iwi St, Palani Road where it meets with Henry, Hualalai Road mauka, KamIII Road, all of that 'infrastructure' for Keauhou Shopping Center, Makalapua, Costco, La'iopua, Kealakehe HS, dump road, are these antiquated meridians that have been there since prior to yours and my births?

Kinoole, Kilauea, Bayfront have nothing on compared to all that track laid down around K-K town. Only Kanoelehua Ave can be argued in terms of widening that has gone on over the years.

Aaron, I get your major premise, and I fully support that. But the facts are that this whole island gets hammerjawed before they/we/you/I/da gubermint moves development forward. The whole island.

Konaguy

May 30th, 2007, 07:15 PM

You are telling me that all that area around Ka'iwi St, Palani Road where it meets with Henry, Hualalai Road mauka, KamIII Road, all of that 'infrastructure' for Keauhou Shopping Center, Makalapua, Costco, La'iopua, Kealakehe HS, dump road, are these antiquated meridians that have been there since prior to yours and my births?

Kinoole, Kilauea, Bayfront have nothing on compared to all that track laid down around K-K town. Only Kanoelehua Ave can be argued in terms of widening that has gone on over the years.

Aaron, I get your major premise, and I fully support that. But the facts are that this whole island gets hammerjawed before they/we/you/I/da gubermint moves development forward. The whole island.

The roads you mention were developer built projects to support their respective projects. Queen Liliuokalani Trust built the roads around Kmart. Maryl Group built Henry Street to support their development and dedicated it to the county. The last COUNTY OR STATE road built in West Hawaii was Queen Kaahumanu Highway Extension which was built in the late 1980s.

joshuatree

May 30th, 2007, 08:06 PM

This is nothing new, as the Hawai‘i Automobile Dealers Association (HADA) has been pushing this idea for some time. HADA Executive Director David Rolf wrote an interesting commentary (http://starbulletin.com/2006/10/01/editorial/special.html) in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin that goes in-depth on the various system in place worldwide, and how such a scenario would apply to O‘ahu. He even bills it as an alternative to rail transit. :eek:

Yeah but in Oahu's case, it's also an issue of finding ways to reduce the number of cars on the island which to no surprise, HADA would be against. I'll leave that debate for another thread. But for Hawaii, a tollroad would make more sense because of the few population centers separated by vast open spaces and these pop centers aren't big enough to generate enough tax revenue to build all the infrastructure they want.

Pua'i Mana'o

May 30th, 2007, 09:33 PM

The roads you mention were developer built projects to support their respective projects. Queen Liliuokalani Trust built the roads around Kmart. Maryl Group built Henry Street to support their development and dedicated it to the county. The last COUNTY OR STATE road built in West Hawaii was Queen Kaahumanu Highway Extension which was built in the late 1980s.

then you need to read those very links you had provided. All three of those Hilo roads were built with 80% federal funds.

Konaguy

May 31st, 2007, 06:35 AM

then you need to read those very links you had provided. All three of those Hilo roads were built with 80% federal funds.

That is normal for most roadway projects. The FHWA administration funds 80% of the cost. But that isn't point, not even close. The fact is four new roads have built on the east side of the Big Island by the county or state (or FHWA)-None on the rest of the island, since the late 1980s.

I really don't understand this is so hard to grasp. I can see it clearly :confused:

1. Saddle Road Re-alignment (m.m 28-35) FHWA/DAR 2007
2. Puainako Street Extension -2004
3. Mohouli Street Extension - 2002
4. Keaau Bypass -1999

Pua'i Mana'o

May 31st, 2007, 07:07 AM

timkona

May 31st, 2007, 08:37 AM

And it is those people who do have a legitimate reason to complain.

As for Railroad Avenue, that would have been a great idea for expansion however the obstical wasn't from the County...it was from those living along that corridor that opposed to it's expansion.

Craig, you are talking about the Politics of NO. You see, protest and activism is a very popular notion these days. It is good to be AGAINST anything. The people who are AGAINST anything are seldom identified as villains.

But the balls truth is that all the folks with an ax to grind, including bones, environment, NIMBY, traffic, tall buidings, et al......these are all the folks who are the VILLAINS on Big Island. By and large, they are not purposefully malicious, just miseducated and stubbornly ignorant or closeminded. Is there a word (besides stupid) that means 'terrified of the future'?

Alas, an entire generation of Americans was trained during Vietnam to say NO, and perfected their NO message using environmentalism. As these people get older, and become in charge of stuff, they honestly think that the best answer to everything is NO. All of these folks are wrong, wrong, wrong. And they don't know it.

So traffic will get worse. Dwellings will cost more. Our children will move to Las Vegas. And this is what we all want. Too bad. So sad. Get over it.

sinjin

May 31st, 2007, 08:47 AM

Is there a word (besides stupid) that means 'terrified of the future'?I believe the proper term is "conservative".:D

timkona

May 31st, 2007, 08:54 AM

sinjin

May 31st, 2007, 09:34 AM

I was looking for a word along the lines of xenophobia, which means the fear of outsiders.

I'm laughing hard at the notion that conservative implies being terrified of the future. Reality is that the Politics of NO is mostly populated by liberals. But there is no sense in thinking about it logically, right Sin?con·serv·a·tive -

* Disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

* Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.

* Resistant to change

* A person who is reluctant to accept changes and new ideas.

* Tending to conserve; preservative.

You're right though Tim, no point. Especially when your opinions are identical in your mind with "truth" and anyone who doesn't see things your way are by definition "ignorant". No doubt by "logical" you mean the mental process of proceeding to conclusions identical to your own.

Even when I agree with you I find you most disagreeble.

Konaguy

May 31st, 2007, 12:41 PM

What is it that you see so clearly? How are these roads more unique/less critical than the bz-dev roadways that have helped blow up KK town? The County/State portion is identical for each; the burden was econcomically supported by fed$ or private industry, not Uncle Harry's/Aunty Linda's coffers.

I've driven around Hilo. There has been only very few instances where the traffic has been bad. The traffic flows much better in Hilo because they have a better network of roads. Compare that to the rest of the island, except the Keaau Bypass no new roads have been built since 1987 (I believe) with the Queen Kaahumanu Extension. Since then traffic in Puna, Kohala and Kona has exponentially gotten worse.

Food for thought, if you think Kamaka'eha, Makala Blvd and Henry Street is on par with Hilo's network of roads, I find that laughable.

Try driving in Hilo and then try driving in Kamuela or Kona or Puna, you'll notice difference.In short no one can deny, Puna, and the rest of the island have been shafted. I've seen it, I've lived through it.

I'm not including the Saddle Road re-alignment/re-construction because that is a special situation. As its being funded largely by the US Army.

Pua'i Mana'o

May 31st, 2007, 01:09 PM

full disclaimer: my work takes me to both sides of the Big Isle (and not the Gold Coast, but through KK and into S Kona), and I am stuck in that traffic more than you realize, therefore at least as qualified as you to know that of which I bitch. ;) I still posit that Hilo has been the way it is for over 100+ years, because maps don't lie. It grew in a circular fashion and its boundaries are halted geographically, except for the growth remaining to be built in Waiakea Uka and Kaumana. This is par for the course of any bay city.

Kona has not; your side of the island is pure makai sprawl, because your shoreline inspires greed, whereas Hilo has, like, no shoreline. Even those articles you linked speaks to Kona's population adding to the inertia against furthering the development on that side, whereas half of Hilo's residents were simply begging for relief in the morning to get down from the mountain for work and school.

Let's be clear, Aaron: I am not arguing that Kona needs solutions to its road problems, but I do disagree with the fist-thumping of "Hilo is spoiled" when the truth is there is/was no political/financial architect or group of such in either the 20th or 21 century that you can credit/blame for any brilliant urban planning for Hilo's sake. Hilo doesn't have a leg up on quality of life over Kona.

As for that Kea'au bypass? Its in Puna, and I ride that, too.

sinjin

May 31st, 2007, 01:25 PM

Old data but FWIW:

http://www.hawaii-county.com/planning/konaroads.htm

http://www.hawaii-county.com/info/bp/sc.htm

Konaguy

May 31st, 2007, 01:45 PM

Well nothing is going to change my mind that Hilo has shafted the rest of the island infrastructure over the years. Hilo is like a black hole, money
comes in very little money goes out.

Worse yet due to incompetent planning, putting developers needs over the citizens of this island, has resulted in the mess we are in today.

It all ads up to a lot of frustration. You don't want to know how much my blood boils whenever I drive around Hilo and seeing all the great infrastructure. Yes I've read the apologists excuses for it. But it doesn't help with the current situation.

Even more frustrating, whenever selfish letters at this certain persons letter get published, add credence Hilo folks don't want to share with the rest of the island.

Topping this is trying to get the County to address the infrastructure issues in West Hawaii, is like pulling teeth.

joshuatree

May 31st, 2007, 02:53 PM

Pua'i Mana'o

May 31st, 2007, 04:07 PM

what does "infrastructure" mean to you? All of Hilo's businesses are at the core of the town. When you talk about "traffic", you aren't in Hilo's traffic zones, because you won't be stuck in the residential zones trying to move town-wards. Try coming from Keaukaha, Hamakua, Kaumana, Waiakea Uka, and Panaewa (the last gateway to/from Puna), then you will know what I mean. But on the east side, it moves circumferentially, whereas in Kona, there's a reason why there's a Waikoloa and a Kukio and a Keauhou and a Kealakekua, and a Hokulia. There isn't a set business district and it isn't clear what efforts are being made to have a tighter urban environment in Kona.

Again, what is "infrastructure"? The number of malls? Supermarkets? Bank branches? Parks? Well, Hilo's bayfront cannot support development, because it is a marsh and a tidal wave zone, so it has defaulted into a soccer and football park in the meantime. But then you have old airport (and don't get me started on airports; flying in to Hilo, that aiport is in the middle of everything, which means that if my plane turns into a fireball, we are talking a catastrophic amount of lives with the all the houses nearby). If you are talking about shopping, Hilo has two KTAs, two SacknSaves, one Safeway and a Prince Kuhio Plaza. (Shucks! I forgot: two Longs. /full list)

What shopping opportunities does Kona have?

Puna has been the stepchild of the county for the longest time and deserves to squawk the most. Talk about sprawl, maile pilau-style. Subdivisions like weeds, Pahoa, Keaau Shopping Center and Verna's in Mountain View. Quick Pa! Git yer money cuz we-za shopping toooday! :p

(but like I told you earlier, I agree with you about that obnoxious letter to the editor. )

aloha, P

Konaguy

May 31st, 2007, 05:00 PM

what does "infrastructure" mean to you?

Roads, and parks is generally the infrastructure I'm talking about. I've driven around Hilo numerous times. There has been only maybe few instances that
I've encountered severe traffic issues, like when school gets out for example. Overall its 200% less stressful driving around Hilo versus Kona.

Wouldn't the debate be easily resolved by simply digging up records to see how much each town has contributed in tax revenue and seeing where the bulk of the revenue is spent?

That would be an interesting adventure to partake. But for me, even if the data showed otherwise,too much of the tax revenue has been spent in Hilo.That being based upon the superior infrastructure it has over the rest of the island.

Bear in mind 70% of property tax revenue originates from West Hawaii (Of that 41% overall property tax take comes from the Kaupulehu, Waikoloa,
Mauna Lani, Mauna resort nodes).

One other interesting fact is what is presented on this web pages (Bear in mind the data is 7 years old).

http://www.bonniegoodell.com/losrisk.htm

Actually, Hilo seems to be in better shape than Honolulu.

But when comparing Hilo vs the rest of the Big Island, Hilo has disproportionately better infrastructure.

TuNnL

June 1st, 2007, 12:29 AM

Yeah but in Oahu's case, it's also an issue of finding ways to reduce the number of cars on the island...Actually, you are wrong. City planner Toru Hamayasu has already said (in a taped interview (http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?cf184eea-b1e6-4edf-81b6-109bbd481d33) that aired Sept. ’06 on ‘Ōlelo-52) that “reducing the number of cars on the island” is not a goal, and based on the O‘ahu’s increasing population, impossible - even if rail transit, a ferry system, and highway widening were employed simultaneously.But for Hawaii, a tollroad would make more sense because of the few population centers separated by vast open spaces and these pop centers aren’t big enough to generate enough tax revenue to build all the infrastructure they want.That’s true. This is what the residents should be demanding.

MonkeyMan

June 1st, 2007, 01:19 AM

So if I buy an acre for forty bucks, say, on Lo'ihi, and I wait a bit...

http://starbulletin.com/2007/05/27/news/story03.html

...I can start screaming for my share of infrastructure from Big Island taxes, too? Maybe I can get a bridge built?

sinjin

June 1st, 2007, 06:35 AM

http://www.hawaii-county.com/annual_reports/ar-index.htm

http://www.hawaii-county.com/mayor/State_of_County.pdf

http://www.hawaii-county.com/mayor/2005_Budget_Message.pdf

I'm still following the money trail to find stats on actual dollars spent where.

sinjin

June 1st, 2007, 06:52 AM

These are good:

http://www.hawaii-county.com/info/wh/West%20Hawaii%20Roads%20Brochure.pdf

http://www.hawaii-county.com/info/eh/EH-M.htm

Konaguy

June 1st, 2007, 07:01 AM

The problem the links you've provided is this fact, the County only recently is starting to address some of these infrastructure issues in Kona. In other words
yes there is a lot of roadway improvements planned according to the brochure.But they are happening (if at all) too late.

I say if at all because two major roads are tied up due to condemnation litigation and a burial in the ROW (Hokulia bypass and Ali'i Parkway). If these roads were
built already, it would help immensely improve the traffic flow.

Lastly in regards to the brochures, yes more money is being directed towards West Hawaii. But my gripe is too much money had been spent in Hilo in the past.

sinjin

June 1st, 2007, 07:16 AM

Lastly in regards to the brochures, yes more money is being directed towards West Hawaii. But my gripe is too much money had been spent in Hilo in the past.It would appear that the shafting you suggest does not exist. How far in the past are you referring to? I think you too easily discount the topographical challenges to transportation efficiency in the West as well as the effect the robust growth in real estate values has had on the commuting patterns there. Not to mention the population increase that is hard to accurately predict.

Pua'i Mana'o

June 1st, 2007, 01:58 PM

Konaguy

June 1st, 2007, 03:18 PM

Pua'i Mana'o

June 1st, 2007, 04:02 PM

Anyone who has lived here for awhile knows the score. A trip around Hilo and Kailua-Kona you can see the shaft job. I don't need a bunch of data to tell me what I already can see.

I don't expect you to understand my point of view, nor I really feel I should have to justify it either. I don't have all time in the world to research online my position on this matter. Maybe if you two paid me, I'd be more inclined.

I say this with the utmost respect: I have long appreciated your passion and concern for Kona's issues, and do my best to read first, speak later. I have never doubted your sincerity on the issue, and while you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own set of facts. You malign a nonexistent demon driven by your na'au. If we really wanted to be fair to the issue, Puna would be lumped in with Hilo and we would look at these issues in macro (traffic, expenditure, council representation, $$-driven, etc, demographics, land size). You should agree--your concern about the Kea'au bypass, which is located in Puna is something you see as a "Hilo issue".

None of my research is internet-sifted, btw. It is a rare occurence for me to say anything about the Big Island. But I have to call it as I see it, because, like you, I live it.

Konaguy

June 1st, 2007, 04:28 PM

I say this with the utmost respect: I have long appreciated your passion and concern for Kona's issues, and do my best to read first, speak later. I have never doubted your sincerity on the issue, and while you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own set of facts. You malign a nonexistent demon driven by your na'au. If we really wanted to be fair to the issue, Puna would be lumped in with Hilo and we would look at these issues in macro (traffic, expenditure, council representation, $$-driven, etc, demographics, land size). You should agree--your concern about the Kea'au bypass, which is located in Puna is something you see as a "Hilo issue".

None of my research is internet-sifted, btw. It is a rare occurence for me to say anything about the Big Island. But I have to call it as I see it, because, like you, I live it.

I disagree, I don't need to spend eons of hours to prove what I already know is a fact. What you see doesn't lie. I can only remember one instance that
I've been stuck in traffic in Hilo (and that was when school let out). Comparing that to Kona, its like night and day. Its like you can go crazy driving around Kona.

As much as I hate Hilo, I enjoy driving around it. As there is all these brand spanking new roads with less traffic.

Food for thought, I've lived in Kona 31 years (born and raised). I've been all around this island.Like it or not, there is a huge disparity between Hilo and the rest of the island infrastructure wise.

sinjin

June 1st, 2007, 05:43 PM

sinjin

June 1st, 2007, 05:45 PM

Kona Roads

West Hawaii Traffic Problems—Chris Yuen, Planning Director, Hawaii County

(This is an expanded version of an article written for the Hawaii Island Journal, and published June 15, 2004. Material that is not in the Journal article is in parentheses here.)

Roads and Housing

To move toward solutions of the current West Hawaii traffic problem, we first have to identify root causes. Population growth is a big contributor, but something else is going on. From 1990 to 2000, the population of North and South Kona grew by about 24%, but traffic on portions of the Queen Kaahumanu Highway grew by more than 50%.

Why? The biggest reason is the commuting pattern. The long line of cars in Kona crawling north in the morning rush hour and south in the late afternoon mostly consists of people driving between their homes and work. (While people drive for all kinds of reasons, traffic in Kona is much worse in the early morning and late afternoon, when most people are driving to and from work.)

The commuting pattern, in turn, comes largely from the fact that ordinary workers cannot afford housing near their jobs. Most West Hawaii jobs are in the luxury resorts along the coast in South Kohala and North Kona, and in Kailua-Kona and Keauhou.

Few workers can live near the coastal resorts, and the median home price in North Kona has climbed past $400,000. Because they can’t afford to live closer to their work, employees commute from Oceanview, Pahala, Honoka’a, and even from Hilo and Puna. (Of course, many people choose to live in certain places because they like the area, or they have family there, or they grew up there, or for many other reasons, and accept the idea of commuting to work. Affordability is not the sole reason. People are free to live where they want, but the difficulty is that housing prices in North Kona and South Kohala especially are forcing people to live at great distances from their employment, even if they don’t want to. The census has a survey of how long it takes the typical person to commute to work. Residents of North Kona and South Hilo have significantly lower commuting times than those in other districts. This makes sense because most of the jobs are in North Kona and South Hilo.)

Most of this north-south commuter traffic moves on a single lane in each direction. Between Honalo and Captain Cook, the Mamalahoa Highway simply can’t carry large numbers of vehicles because almost every store and home has its own driveway opening directly onto the road. Each car stopping to turn left causes a wave of stopped cars rippling backward for miles.

Growth does more than add cars to the north-south commuting axis. As commercial development builds along the highway, side streets get busier, and soon you must add signal lights to safely move the traffic in and out. For example, Hina Lani had to be signalized in part because of Costco-generated traffic.

The signals, while making the intersections safer, cause further delays. In a few years, a driver on the main highway between the Kona Airport and the Kamehameha III intersection, a distance of about 12 miles, will probably encounter about 14 signal lights, versus 10 now, and only a couple twenty years ago.

The lack of connections between streets is a contributing factor. Most Kona subdivisions are on cul-de-sacs. Homeowners typically don’t want their streets to carry through traffic, but this disconnected pattern means that every trip uses the main highways. (While the County Planning Department and Public Works Departments are trying to implement street interconnectivity, this is often opposed by homeowners who want their streets to remain cul-de-sacs.)

Kealakehe High and Intermediate are the most glaring example of this lack of interconnectivity: they are only about 1.5 miles apart, but a parent dropping off a child at each school must make a detour of about 7 miles on congested roads.

........................................

Aaron,

Did you read this? I am 27 years in transportation engineering and I know when someone is telling it like it is. This man is doing just that.

tikiyaki

June 1st, 2007, 05:45 PM

I disagree, I don't need to spend eons of hours to prove what I already know is a fact. What you see doesn't lie. I can only remember one instance that
I've been stuck in traffic in Hilo (and that was when school let out). Comparing that to Kona, its like night and day. Its like you can go crazy driving around Kona.

As much as I hate Hilo, I enjoy driving around it. As there is all these brand spanking new roads with less traffic.

Food for thought, I've lived in Kona 31 years (born and raised). I've been all around this island.Like it or not, there is a huge disparity between Hilo and the rest of the island infrastructure wise.

Just curious KonaGuy...What is it about Hilo do the you hate so much ?

Konaguy

June 1st, 2007, 10:15 PM

Aaron,

Did you read this? I am 27 years in transportation engineering and I know when someone is telling it like it is. This man is doing just that.

Yes of course, I completely agree with his analysis. The condensed version of what he is saying is due to poor planning has precipitated this traffic nightmare (Not only in Kona, but in Kohala and Puna).

It doesn't take a rocket to see that the county over the years shoved all this development all around this island without adequate infrastructure. Hence the
infrastructure deficit and the long distances between jobs and housing.

Konaguy

June 1st, 2007, 10:21 PM

Just curious KonaGuy...What is it about Hilo do the you hate so much ?
Condensed explanation of why I don't like Hilo much.

1. Rains too much for my tastes
2. One of the last bastions of the old boy mentality
3. Wields too much political power up until recently
4. hidden racist undercurrent

alohabear

June 2nd, 2007, 11:51 AM

Condensed explanation of why I don't like Hilo much.

1. Rains too much for my tastes
2. One of the last bastions of the old boy mentality
3. Wields too much political power up until recently
4. hidden racist undercurrent
As a life long Hilo resident I agree with you about our town. This being said, here's why I don't care for Kona....

1. Too hot and dry for my tastes
2. Traffic!
3. Vog
4. The tourist center Kailua(although I do love south Kona where my parents are from better).

Here's what I like about Kona....
1. The fishing and beaches
2. The feeling of racial harmony
3. Great dining and shopping
4. The sense of "old Hawaii" in the southern end of the district.

Aloha!

craigwatanabe

June 2nd, 2007, 02:38 PM

Although I'm originally from Oahu, I have had the opportunity to have travelled between Oahu and the Big Island since keiki time back in the early 60's. My dad grew up in Hilo since 1917 and is still alive to vividly recollect his memories of a growing Hilo.

That said, Hilo has changed...a lot. It rained so much everything was green green green including the sidewalks. Now it's as hot and dry as Honolulu.

Kona has changed...a lot too! Like Chris Yuen indicated, the problem with Kona was the lateral business development along it's coastline with very little being done to it's Mauka side.

Decades ago I remember watching from the Kona coast seeing vasts tracts of mountain sides around Holualoa being bulldozed to make way for gated subdivisions. Auwe I said to myself as the urban sprawl of Kona began.

Before Keahole Airport was built it was all lava land sold dirt cheap. I remember when the Queen K highway was built. Ho boy the reflectors lit up on that new highway and the bugs hit the headlights as you drove at night along that new stretch of road.

I always wondered growing up and visiting Kona how in the world they were going to develop this area and make it easy for commuters as everything was linear instead of hublike. One way in one way out. But Kona was a hot and dry and to me not a great place to live in. The sunsets were great but the setting sun also gave way to heating up all that lava land and keeping the evenings even warmer as the winds died down.

Hilo on the other hand albeit lotsa rain (back then in the 60's) was a more practical place to raise a family with it's family lifestyles. Remember Waimea was still that ranching community with the old Parker Ranch shopping center back then.

Back then in Kona it was all the King Kam and surrounding hotels on Alii Drive that put Kona on the map (and the Billfishing Tourney).

When Queen K was built, Waiakoloa village happened and the rest is history. Sprawl in two different directions and no supported long term design plan for West Hawaii.

It seemed West Hawaii was the cash cow for the Big Island designed for either farmers or hotels. Hmmm kinda like Waikiki. In both cases the farmers are slowly being squeezed out. But because the county seat resided in Hilo, and more people lived and worked in Hilo the county had to spend it's money where more constituents lived. But thru it all Kona developed regardless thru private monies from developers.

Now Kona has reached some level of parity with Hilo with it's own residents and growing economy, yet Hilo still takes for it's infrastructure leaving West Hawaii holding the short end.

From an outsiders perspective, I felt as I moved into lower Puna that the district of Puna would be a major player and could also be the diplomatic district to connect both East and West Hawaii thru it's shared representation in the County Council.

This is why I've always felt the expansions into Waiakea was the wrong move for our planners here on the Big Island and that the more logical direction was thru Puna in terms of business growth. The tourism growth is along that direction not thru Hamakua or thru Saddle Road.

It seems from Panaewa to Lower Puna commerce is growing in that direction out of Hilo, not mauka towards UH Hilo nor towards Hamakua.

With hugh chunks of residential property taxes being collected from lower Puna it seems logical to develop that area along Volcano Highway and inwards to Pahoa where growth has exploded.

I drive along the two expansions in Hilo Mauka and see very little traffic on those roadways. I drive along Pahoa highway and Volcano Highway and see gridlock.

Expansion thru lower/upper Puna, Volcano, Kau and into Kona seems the more logical route as there seems to be a bottle neck of traffic from Waimea into Kona already. Why add to that with expansions out of Hilo that will route thru these already congested areas.

What do I like about Hilo?

Reminds me of Honolulu 20-30 years ago when Honlolulu was a nicer place to live.

What do I like about Kona?

Hmmm great beaches but still a far cry from Oahu beaches. But compared to Hilo, much better.

But I do agree with Aaron that Hilo has always been the big brother to Kona and the little kid always gets the scraps at the dinner table.

Konaguy

June 2nd, 2007, 03:41 PM

Your immaturity thwarts your good intentions.

Now was that really necessary to say that. Yes I do have fiery opinions, and I can be very blunt about things. But the whole political correctness thing doesn't work for me.
On top of that, I don't need a bunch of data to show what I can already see with my eyes already. I see all the great roadway infrastructure Hilo has. While Puna residents and the rest of us are stuck in abominable traffic.

tikiyaki

June 2nd, 2007, 04:58 PM

That said, Hilo has changed...a lot. It rained so much everything was green green green including the sidewalks. Now it's as hot and dry as Honolulu.

What do I like about Hilo?

Reminds me of Honolulu 20-30 years ago when Honlolulu was a nicer place to live.

How is it that the weather has changed in Hilo that drastically?

Also, do you see Hilo developing like Honolulu or just kinda staying put like it is now ?

Konaguy

June 2nd, 2007, 05:16 PM

Also, do you see Hilo developing like Honolulu or just kinda staying put like it is now ?

I believe the real growth will occur in Puna. There is still 50,000 undeveloped lots there. I've read Puna's growth will cause it to be the largest district population wise in 15 years.

craigwatanabe

June 2nd, 2007, 05:42 PM

How is it that the weather has changed in Hilo that drastically?

Also, do you see Hilo developing like Honolulu or just kinda staying put like it is now ?

Having lived here on the East side of the Big Island now for almost 4-years now and having the benefit of remembering Hilo wayyyyy back in the 60's, the weather has changed remarkably.

Back then it was more of the exception to have a sunny day. It always rained! It's weather was much like Seattle's, always overcast.

Now we have very nice sunny days such as today. It's more of the norm now.

And unfortunately yes I do see Hilo developing much the way Honolulu has over the last three decades. I was eating lunch with my boys at McDonalds at the Puianako Shopping center a month ago and remarked that in a few decades the view over Panaewa will be overshadowed by buildings. It's only salvation will be from the fact that the Hilo Airport's location will make tall buildings prohibitive in that area.

With Walmart building it's supercenter there and Home Depot nearby, it's only a matter of time before that area will be the Kaakako of the Big Island.

tikiyaki

June 2nd, 2007, 08:16 PM

Having lived here on the East side of the Big Island now for almost 4-years now and having the benefit of remembering Hilo wayyyyy back in the 60's, the weather has changed remarkably.

Back then it was more of the exception to have a sunny day. It always rained! It's weather was much like Seattle's, always overcast.

Now we have very nice sunny days such as today. It's more of the norm now.

And unfortunately yes I do see Hilo developing much the way Honolulu has over the last three decades. I was eating lunch with my boys at McDonalds at the Puianako Shopping center a month ago and remarked that in a few decades the view over Panaewa will be overshadowed by buildings. It's only salvation will be from the fact that the Hilo Airport's location will make tall buildings prohibitive in that area.

With Walmart building it's supercenter there and Home Depot nearby, it's only a matter of time before that area will be the Kaakako of the Big Island.

Well...that is until they move the airport, like they did with Kona airport...Now the old Kona Airport is one runway with weeds growing out of it, and a beachpark.....

What do you think the chances are of Hilo Airport moving out more towards Puna ? Lots of open space there....right NOW anyway....

Also, Pua'i Mana'o mentioned that most of Hilo's bayfront is on flood plain/marsh-type land...wouldn't that prohibit the development of many tall buildings ?

I wonder why the weather shift tho'....

craigwatanabe

June 2nd, 2007, 08:29 PM

Nah keep the airport in Hilo, they want all the amenities of town they can keep it. I love it out here in Keaau where there is absolutely no air traffic except for the HELCO planes and choppers that SAY they're looking for down power lines...and not pakalolo:D

Since too many endangered fauna out by the Volcano area so I'm sure the environmentalists will scream if the airport is moved this way

And yes the bayfront area is prone to tsunami's so that's why no development out there, since all the buildings there (Kress Building etc) cannot be torn down for redevelopment anyway.

joshuatree

June 3rd, 2007, 12:14 AM

I wonder why the weather shift tho'....

Global warming. :D

tikiyaki

June 3rd, 2007, 12:19 AM

Global warming. :D

That's too easy of an answer :D :D

Pua'i Mana'o

June 3rd, 2007, 10:22 PM

East Hawaii's weather has been changing since Kilauea began blowing nonstop since 1983. There is a hole in the ozone over the isle as a result, and I have noticed the difference in how I could handle the sun as a child, but won't let my kids take the same risks now, because the sun's effects are much stronger.

The weather right now is par for the course as it is dry season.

As for the airport in Hilo, the current one IS the "new airport". It was built in 1975, to the protests and arrests of many Keaukaha residents because the back street homesteaders were forcibly evicted and resettled onto lots 1/3 the size in Pana'ewa (across from now what is Blockbuster, but then, it was in the middle of...nothing).

As for the HilovsKona smackdown, I've contributed enough already to encourage this discussion into data mining, and I've enjoyed everyone's efforts. Thank you, Aaron for creating this thread. I will end on this thought: Euclid wrote, some million years before Christ (well...) that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line". Kona is the living corollary of this lesson, in that there are no shortcuts on the hwy when they opt to build in a straight line. To place blame on Hilo who buillt in a circumference as dictated naturally due to the lay of the land is misplaced. Hilo has no monopoly on brilliance, strategy or fiscal assets or "infrastructure", and for Kona to shift its focus there takes away from the real needs it has to resolve its very real problem: too many cul de sacs, not enough grid development.

Konaguy

June 4th, 2007, 06:56 AM

To place blame on Hilo who buillt in a circumference as dictated naturally due to the lay of the land is misplaced. Hilo has no monopoly on brilliance, strategy or fiscal assets or "infrastructure", and for Kona to shift its focus there takes away from the real needs it has to resolve its very real problem: too many cul de sacs, not enough grid development.

I disagree, a lot of the reason why there is infrastructure issues in West Hawaii today is due to decisions made in the past in Hilo. As you are aware all final decisions from planning to fiscal decisions are made in Hilo. They are certainly not made in Kona. Worse yet previous county administrations put the needs of developers over the needs of the citizenry here.

The upside is the current county council is stacked in favor of West Hawaii finally. Thus critical legislation, like concurrency which will mandate adequate water and road infrastructure is in place to help mitigate the impacts of new development, finally passed the council into law recently. If this legislation was in place earlier, we wouldn't have as bad infrastructure problems on this island.

Pua'i Mana'o

June 4th, 2007, 09:45 AM

I disagree, a lot of the reason why there is infrastructure issues in West Hawaii today is due to decisions made in the past in Hilo. As you are aware all final decisions from planning to fiscal decisions are made in Hilo. They are certainly not made in Kona. Worse yet previous county administrations put the needs of developers over the needs of the citizenry here.

The upside is the current county council is stacked in favor of West Hawaii finally. Thus critical legislation, like concurrency which will mandate adequate water and road infrastructure is in place to help mitigate the impacts of new development, finally passed the council into law recently. If this legislation was in place earlier, we wouldn't have as bad infrastructure problems on this island.

Aaron, as long as you post in this general format without providing any specific examples, you appear to be sucking sour grapes, instead of taking the opportunity to prove your case and teach us all something new. How many Kona developers suffered at the whim of the Hilo-stacked County Council, prohibiting the inclusion of thoroughfares to alleviate traffic? C'mon--cite some, and without using the word "infrastructure". Tell us how Hilo shaped Kona.

Konaguy

June 4th, 2007, 01:25 PM

Tell us how Hilo shaped Kona.

*sigh*, like I said all final planning decisions are made in Hilo. So all these dead end cul-de-sac's and generally poor planning here in Kona ultimately are the fault of previous administrations in Hilo. Developers had to gain their entitlements somewhere and it wasn't here in Kona.

You want examples I see, take Waikoloa Village for example.Land is re-zoned by the County 20-30 years ago. The catch is there was no stipulation imposed on the developer at the time to build supporting infrastructure. 20-30 years pass, the land is sold and re-sold by multiple developers. Now the chickens are coming home roost with the current developer cashing in those entitlements granted eons ago by previous county administrations in Hilo.

sinjin

June 4th, 2007, 01:42 PM

*sigh*, like I said all final planning decisions are made in Hilo. So all these dead end cul-de-sac's and generally poor planning here in Kona ultimately are the fault of previous administrations in Hilo. Developers had to gain their entitlements somewhere and it wasn't here in Kona.

You want examples I see, take Waikoloa Village for example.Land is re-zoned by the County 20-30 years ago. The catch is there was no stipulation imposed on the developer at the time to build supporting infrastructure. 20-30 years pass, the land is sold and re-sold by multiple developers. Now the chickens are coming home roost with the current developer cashing in those entitlements granted eons ago by previous county administrations in Hilo.The cul-de-sacs were undoubtedly the developer's idea in the hopes of higher sales prices per unit.

Konaguy

June 4th, 2007, 01:49 PM

The cul-de-sacs were undoubtedly the developer's idea in the hopes of higher sales prices per unit.

But who approved it ? It wasn't anyone in Kona. All final planning decisions are made in Hilo. Also there is 9 council members, one of which is from Kona. How
can one vote beat eight ?

timkona

June 4th, 2007, 02:04 PM

Blame the developers! Blame the developers!

In the last 10 years, I have been to at least 50 public hearings, council meetings, planning commission meetings, etc etc. on the west side of the island.

Infrastructure has been stopped for one reason after another.....Environment, Bones, NIMBY's, EIS, Financing, and of course, bureaucratic bungling.

I have been to about 6 meetings on the East Side. Do you want to know what the difference is???? Get ready.......

In West Hawaii, everybody shows up to say NO. In East Hawaii, nobody shows up.

Do you get the joke? Do you see the problem? Or do you sympathize with the Politics of NO so much that you cannot possibly see the disasters that these complainers have wrought?

Konaguy

June 4th, 2007, 02:16 PM

sinjin

June 4th, 2007, 03:43 PM

I thought we were talking about developments that were approved and built?

Were those developers "Kona people"?

joshuatree

June 4th, 2007, 04:00 PM

Tim, I agree with you, the NIMBY's have stalled a lot of things here in Kona. But I'm not blaming the developers completely. As like I said, all final planning decisions are made in Hilo. It is no secret developers in the past greased the wheel to get their projects to go through with limited or no mitigating infrastructure improvements.

Were there no developers wanting to build in Hilo in this same time frame? Did they also push for the same non-infrastructure building rights as the Kona developers? How did the same Hilo council vote on those issues? I think if you examine the matter at that level, then you can see if there was any bias on the council. Plus, as Tim mentioned, if you have NIMBYs stalling one area and none in the other, that will also alter the balance.

timkona

June 4th, 2007, 04:14 PM

Remember, it's not JUST the Nimby's. There are a variety of groups that want to say NO for a variety of reasons. Each of the groups, and their reasons for NO, are perfectly understandable. The problem is that, taken all together, they represent the source of the intransigence, and lost money & opportunity, that is plaguing Kona.

We would have had an overpass at Palani when the Queen Kaahumanu BOULEVARD was built back in the 70's. But people didn't want that. We would have a Hokulia Hwy, but bones and LUC issues blocked that. We would have Alii Pkwy, but again theres bones there also.

I'm sure that if Puna wanted a wider hwy or an overpass (:eek: ) then hundreds of folks would speak out against that also.

To hell with safety. To hell with the environment. We want gridlock. We want our children to move to Las Vegas. And we want lots of protest to help make these things a reality.

Pua'i Mana'o

June 4th, 2007, 05:23 PM

But who approved it ? It wasn't anyone in Kona. All final planning decisions are made in Hilo. Also there is 9 council members, one of which is from Kona. How
can one vote beat eight ?

Let's take a good look at this:

The majority of people who live in districts 2-5 work (2-4) in Hilo. The majority of districts 7-9 work in Kona (7&8). 1 and 6 divide between both, which would mean that these two districts are conceivably the swing votes.

I want to know who are these Eight-for-da-Eastside Gang, and which district is the lone suffering warrior-of-the-2lane-beachfront-hwy? And I wish, truly deeply wish, you would respond to Sinjin's link, picking a good crosssection of points (you needn't answer them all), and tell us how Kona is developed--the area between districts 6 all the way through 9-- is Hilo's fault, and what does that specifically mean?

Come oooooooooon, man! Help us advocate or commiserise, or at least understand! But you gotta meet us halfway, since you are the 'All Kona All The Time' Dude. How you fail to point fingers at greedy, short-sighted developers just astounds me.

But I will tell you what flabberghasts me: why is there nothing but dead lava for miles between Waikoloa and the rest of Kona's residents? How come the grid never filled in there? Miles of unnecessary raw land, not even pretty land, while the rest of Kona decides that they need to put all of their jobs over 1/2 hour away from their homes/schools/lives. Is this also the master design of the Hilo Cartel?

Konaguy

June 4th, 2007, 06:46 PM

Were there no developers wanting to build in Hilo in this same time frame? Did they also push for the same non-infrastructure building rights as the Kona developers? How did the same Hilo council vote on those issues? I think if you examine the matter at that level, then you can see if there was any bias on the council. Plus, as Tim mentioned, if you have NIMBYs stalling one area and none in the other, that will also alter the balance.

The situation is only recently the developers have sprung into action in East Hawaii, specifically in Puna. Hence why they are suffering traffic issues now. East Hawaii thus far though has been less desirable (until recently) due to the weather.

A lot of these entitlements were granted awhile back. Since the market has been hot, developers have been cashing in their entitlements like crazy. The caveat is they haven't had to build supporting infrastructure.

Blaming the NIMBYs is just a smokescreen covering up a deeper problem here.

Konaguy

June 4th, 2007, 06:48 PM

I thought we were talking about developments that were approved and built?

Were those developers "Kona people"?

The developments I'm talking about are the ones that have gained entitlements already. For the most part these developers are from off shore.

Konaguy

June 4th, 2007, 06:58 PM

? And I wish, truly deeply wish, you would respond to Sinjin's link, picking a good crosssection of points (you needn't answer them all), and tell us how Kona is developed--the area between districts 6 all the way through 9-- is Hilo's fault, and what does that specifically mean?

Why should I, when the ultimate culprit is the former Hawaii County administrations. Bear in mind, like I said, all final planning decisions are made in Hilo. Hence why we have the problem as described in the article.

How you fail to point fingers at greedy, short-sighted developers just astounds me.

It takes two tango. Developers cannot unilaterally develop their projects here without permission.. They have to seek entitlements from Hawaii County and the State of Hawaii. These government entities are responsible for planning, not developers. The developers are looking out for their investors only.

But I will tell you what flabberghasts me: why is there nothing but dead lava for miles between Waikoloa and the rest of Kona's residents? How come the grid never filled in there? Miles of unnecessary raw land, not even pretty land, while the rest of Kona decides that they need to put all of their jobs over 1/2 hour away from their homes/schools/lives. Is this also the master design of the Hilo Cartel?

A lot of the land you mention is owned by KSBE or the State of Hawaii. It has been placed in the conservation or agriculture district. Believe it or not 96% of the 1 million plus acres of ag land on the Big Island is considered marginal. In other words the land use system here is severely broken, as shown in the Hokulia mess.

Konaguy

June 8th, 2007, 10:07 PM

http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/2007/06/07/local/local02.txt

There was an interesting WHT article in regards to the property tax disparity between East and West Hawaii. There was one nugget of information shows the disparity loud and clear.

"The discrepancy between East and West Hawaii seems even more acute when examined by the average tax paid per parcel. Each of the 39,614 lots in the four traditional West Hawaii districts will pay an average of almost $3,800, while the 98,670 lots in the five East Hawaii districts will pay an average of $620."

To break it down further,

"Kim said between 35 to 38 cents is spent in the West Hawaii districts for each dollar paid in property tax. While many say the money is going to Hilo, Kim said residents of South Hilo -- where the city of Hilo is located -- are in a relatively similar situation, getting back around 50 cents on every tax dollar.

At the same time, Puna, with the largest population and most parcels of any district on the Big Island, is returned two dollars for every dollar its residents contribute into county coffers."

I find the latter very shocking. I really doubt that is statistically accurate that Puna is getting 2.00 back in services for every 1.00 in property taxes. Especially taking into account the poor infrastructure and overall lack of services Puna has currently.

timkona

June 8th, 2007, 11:38 PM

Geeesh boy,,,,, no offense...but you are clearly showing what it is that you do not understand about infrastructure, and social/urban planning.

Density. Density. Density. That is the lesson for today. And I hope you google it. Math is a damned pissy science.....mainly cuz it does not allow for any opinion. It don't matter what you think about 2+2. It's the same every time. Ratios and densities are wonderful concepts in mathematics. Low Density development is bad, bad, bad. Subdivisions are bad. Single story living structures = bad. 1 Acre lots = bad. Distance longer than walking from domicile to domicile = bad. And not the way we used to do it before we had autos. (really less than 100 years, in reality.)

Then you should learn the idea of zoning. Add in the cost of any road per mile in a union dominated environment, plus utilities, and pretty soon you have something as nice as Hokulia. And then your education will be complete.

<<<and this county honestly thinks they can have affordable HOUSING :cool: )

<<<dude, hey tim, the word you should use is 'Dwellings'...no offense man.

Konaguy

June 9th, 2007, 12:39 AM

Ummm Tim what is your point ? I was just pointing out some hard cold facts about the disparity between Hilo and the rest of the Island. Since some people on here had a strong desire to have me show some facts.

TuNnL

June 9th, 2007, 03:34 AM

Ummm Tim what is your point ? I was just pointing out some hard cold facts about the disparity between Hilo and the rest of the Island.As much as I disagree with Tim on numerous issues, he is right in this instance. His point, is that YOU SAID:

I really doubt that is statistically accurate that Puna is getting 2.00 back in services for every 1.00 in property taxes.And he is simply describing why you are wrong to doubt the statistics, and explained why they ARE accurate (as shocking as that might be). Simple math, Konaguy. Trust me — both my parents are accountants who have or currently work in real estate. ;)

joshuatree

June 9th, 2007, 09:59 AM

I actually can believe Puna gets $2 for every $1 of tax. Here's a quick example. Say you got 10 houses all built in a row spread 10 feet from each other. Then all you need is a 100+ foot utility line with branches to feed each house. Now let's say the 10 houses in a row are spread apart a mile each. Then you need a 10+ mile long utility line to serve all 10 houses. Obviously the second scenario will require more $$$ for the infrastructure to be built. And because Puna's density is low and spread out, I can see Puna getting more money for infrastructure but still getting inferior infrastructure because it's still not enough money to cover the distances.

Konaguy

June 9th, 2007, 11:36 AM

As much as I disagree with Tim on numerous issues, he is right in this instance. His point, is that YOU SAID:

And he is simply describing why you are wrong to doubt the statistics, and explained why they ARE accurate (as shocking as that might be). Simple math, Konaguy. Trust me — both my parents are accountants who have or currently work in real estate. ;)

*sigh* Instead of making disparaging comments about my intelligence, why don't you educate me. It really irritates me when people criticize me but do not justify it at all.

I actually can believe Puna gets $2 for every $1 of tax. Here's a quick example. Say you got 10 houses all built in a row spread 10 feet from each other. Then all you need is a 100+ foot utility line with branches to feed each house. Now let's say the 10 houses in a row are spread apart a mile each. Then you need a 10+ mile long utility line to serve all 10 houses. Obviously the second scenario will require more $$$ for the infrastructure to be built. And because Puna's density is low and spread out, I can see Puna getting more money for infrastructure but still getting inferior infrastructure because it's still not enough money to cover the distances.

The way interpreted what was written was Puna receives 2.00 back in services or infrastructure. Take a look at the data on this website http://www.bonniegoodell.com/losrisk.htm and you'll see why I doubt that figure. (Services is like e.g fire protection, police etc).

(I already know that someone is going to point out the data is more than 8 years old. But its the best data I've found to back up my disparity argument).

TuNnL

June 11th, 2007, 12:51 PM

*sigh* Instead of making disparaging comments about my intelligence, why don't you educate me.I made nary a disparaging comment about your intelligence. I merely agreed that you were wrong, which is a fact.
the data is more than 8 years old. But its the best data I've found to back up my disparity argument).And how fair is it really to cite statistics that were published before Mayor Harry Kim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Kim_(politician)) even took office? Any stats that were published anytime during his 7-year tenure?

timkona

June 11th, 2007, 02:27 PM

First of all, Thank You TuNnL. We do agree on some things. ;)

Joshuatree NAILED it. His description is but one small piece of the whole nightmare that is called low density development.

One way to judge a person's logical ability is find out who the environmentalists are, and then ask them if they favor low density development. If they answer YES, then you can be certain they know not of what they speak, and likely favor 'belief' systems over facts and science.

Many folks on Big Island honestly believe that low density development is best. But they do not know that such an idea promotes dependency upon autos, increases infrastructure costs, causes traffic gridlock, latchkey children, expensive dwelling costs, air pollution, environmental destruction, and about a gazillion other problems.

Low density proponents are usually guilty of supreme cognitive dissonance.

Konaguy

June 11th, 2007, 02:55 PM

I made nary a disparaging comment about your intelligence. I merely agreed that you were wrong, which is a fact.
And how fair is it really to cite statistics that were published before Mayor Harry Kim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Kim_(politician)) even took office? Any stats that were published anytime during his 7-year tenure?

How can it be a fact when I backed up my argument with with that website I cited. Joshuatree's explanation doesn't work for me, as its more than roads and water.But overall services, like police and fire protection that the property taxes are funding.

I strongly believe that the data I cited is still relevant. This discussion is firing me up to compile updated data, so non believers like you TuNL will see the light. But why should I, on the other hand, nothing has changed as far as the disparity over the past 7 years.But I can't expect you to see that, when you are living on Oahu.

To answer your last question, I'm not aware of any updated data. The person who did the original data, has not been able to compile updated data. I asked her awhile back
if she was going to do that. But she was unable to at the time.

joshuatree

June 11th, 2007, 05:31 PM

How can it be a fact when I backed up my argument with with that website I cited. Joshuatree's explanation doesn't work for me, as its more than roads and water.But overall services, like police and fire protection that the property taxes are funding.

How can my explanation not work for you in regards to services? It's the same thing. Say your budget allows for you to have 2 fire engines and your town is wjust a square mile. Not let's say same budget so same 2 fire engines in a town that's 10 square miles. Can't you see the level of service will drop as it takes more time for the same 2 fire engines to respond to every call?

Konaguy

June 11th, 2007, 06:53 PM

How can my explanation not work for you in regards to services? It's the same thing. Say your budget allows for you to have 2 fire engines and your town is wjust a square mile. Not let's say same budget so same 2 fire engines in a town that's 10 square miles. Can't you see the level of service will drop as it takes more time for the same 2 fire engines to respond to every call?

I still don't buy it, take a look at the data here http://www.bonniegoodell.com/losrisk.htm . I was slammed for not providing data to back up my claims. Then when I did, I get criticized for the data being too old. What will it take to show creditable evidence.

TuNnL

June 11th, 2007, 11:13 PM

How can it be a fact when I backed up my argument with with that website I cited.Because as I already said, your website’s data was compiled well BEFORE Harry Kim took office (http://starbulletin.com/2000/10/19/news/story5.html). Why on earth would Kim spin statistics that his administration is not responsible for (1995-99)? Hawai‘i’s economy was in a recession (http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/1998/05/18/smallb1.html) at the time your stats. Don’t you think that had something to do with it? Teeny bit?

Politicians always shine a light on THEIR OWN accomplishments whenever possible. If you’re going to rebuke Harry Kim (http://hawaiithreads.com/showpost.php?p=149157&postcount=97) in West Hawai‘i Today, then your focus needs to be on stats that pertain to his administration.

So if the improvements to $2 spent for every $1 of tax money for Puna was made after your “Bonnie Goodell” stats came out (in other words, during 2000-present), and Kim still balanced the budget, he can and should be jumping for joy at his accomplishment.

That is the point. Get it?

This discussion is firing me up to compile updated data, so non believers like you TuNL will see the light. But why should I, on the other hand, nothing has changed as far as the disparity over the past 7 years.But I can't expect you to see that, when you are living on Oahu.Hey, if you prove me wrong, you would have a powerful argument for change, Konaguy. If... ;)

Konaguy

June 12th, 2007, 07:14 AM

That is the point. Get it?

I'll make this simple for you, how can you profess knowing jack about about the Big Island when you live on Oahu ? I've lived in Kona 31 years, my entire life. I know the score when living here that long. That also gives me the unique insight to say Mayor Kim's statistics are full of it.

sinjin

June 12th, 2007, 07:56 AM

I'll make this simple for you, how can you profess knowing jack about about the Big Island when you live on Oahu ? I've lived in Kona 31 years, my entire life. I know the score when living here that long. That also gives me the unique insight to say Mayor Kim's statistics are full of it.Just because you live there doesn't mean all of your impressions and opinions are founded in fact. Disqualifying the observations of non-residents for no other reason than their non-residency is an easy way out of having to substantiate your claims with data. Lazy and opinionated is a lovely combination. Funny, you always find time to be interviewed but have no time for research and documentation.

Konaguy

June 12th, 2007, 04:21 PM

Just because you live there doesn't mean all of your impressions and opinions are founded in fact. Disqualifying the observations of non-residents for no other reason than their non-residency is an easy way out of having to substantiate your claims with data. Lazy and opinionated is a lovely combination. Funny, you always find time to be interviewed but have no time for research and documentation.

You don't know me, so where do you get off calling me lazy ? You don't know I work a full time job, 40 hours a week , 9pm-6am.I read the paper everyday and surf the Internet, writing letters to the editor and to politicians. In short I consider myself up to speed with most issues.

On top that, there is more pressing issues in my life than research and documenting my opinions. If you want to do it, go ahead.You obviously have a deep hatred for me for whatever reason. All I ask is don't ever visit the Big Island. We don't need more jerks like you visiting here.

(Try that one on for size, you took it personal, two people can play that game).

Konaguy

June 12th, 2007, 04:56 PM

Funny, you always find time to be interviewed but have no time for research and documentation.

I don't seek the reporters out. They approach and interview me. Should I deny talking to reporters just to make you happy :rolleyes:

sinjin

June 12th, 2007, 06:59 PM

All I ask is don't ever visit the Big Island. We don't need more jerks like you visiting here.About 20 years late with that request.

sinjin

June 12th, 2007, 07:00 PM

I don't seek the reporters out. They approach and interview me. Should I deny talking to reporters just to make you happy :rolleyes:You might consider getting your facts straight.

TuNnL

June 13th, 2007, 01:02 AM

how can you profess knowing jack about about the Big Island when you live on Oahu?I have said nothing that isn’t common knowledge or in the public domain. Living somewhere doesn’t make you an expert on a place. It does though, in some cases, make you a bum, a felon, an aristocrat, or an illegal alien (depending on the place).

I've lived in Kona 31 years, my entire life....which may explain why you “don’t know jack” about Puna.

That also gives me the unique insight to say Mayor Kim's statistics are full of it.No, it doesn’t. There are thousands of people just like you. You’re apparently one of those who doesn’t understand statistics, even after two people have tried to explain it to you, unless a slick advertising firm shoves a bar graph in your face. :rolleyes:

Konaguy

June 13th, 2007, 07:32 AM

I give up,this thread has degraded into a bash Aaron circus. There is nothing you'll tell me that will change my mind, nor anything I say will change your minds. All I do know is it is funny that all you think you know everything about the Big Island, but none of you live here.

Konaguy

June 13th, 2007, 07:34 AM

You might consider getting your facts straight.

How in the heck am I supposed to interpret what you said. I call it like I see it.

Konaguy

June 13th, 2007, 07:37 AM

...which may explain why you “don’t know jack” about Puna.

No, it doesn’t. There are thousands of people just like you. You’re apparently one of those who doesn’t understand statistics, even after two people have tried to explain it to you, unless a slick advertising firm shoves a bar graph in your face. :rolleyes:

I've been all around this island. I probably know more than you about Puna also.How in the heck do you know anything about Puna anyway, since you are on Oahu.

The explanation does not make any sense to me. I cited my supporting evidence . None of you want to believe it since its too old. But I strongly
believe the services/infrastructure disparity does exist.

sinjin

June 13th, 2007, 08:10 AM

None of you want to believe it since its too old. But I strongly believe the services/infrastructure disparity does exist.Actually Aaron I thought your initial premise concerning the shifting of tax revenue from Kona to upgrade Hilo's infrastructure likely true, at least once upon a time. It's just you provide no concrete data supporting this "shafting". I could find none myself. For me it's important to justify my opinions by investigation of the matter. I've been misinformed before.

The case of Puna receiving disproportionate funding lately is explainable given firstly its size and secondly the fact that infrasructure is being built and substantially upgraded really for the first time. Obviously being driven by recent development.

It's never been about bashing you. It's all about getting at the truth of a situation.

"It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so."
- Will Rogers

Konaguy

June 13th, 2007, 05:50 PM

It's never been about bashing you. It's all about getting at the truth of a situation.

Whatever I'm over it. To me I don't need to have statistics tell me what I already know honestly. As for bashing me, the recent previous posts in
this thread speak for themselves.

Ala Nihi

June 14th, 2007, 03:31 PM

Regarding: "Actually Aaron I thought your initial premise concerning the shifting of tax revenue from Kona to upgrade Hilo's infrastructure likely true, at least once upon a time. It's just you provide no concrete data supporting this "shafting". I could find none myself. For me it's important to justify my opinions by investigation of the matter. I've been misinformed before."

I am new to this list, thanks to Aaron. I did the Level of Service study in 1998 or so. I'll talk about that later. But we also, in 1992, did a complete study, back to 1950, of per capita taxes paid, and capital improvements received, for Puna, Hilo, and the Rest of the Island -we were focusing on Puna for the Puna Community Development Plan at the time. [Getting the information on taxes was a story in itself, of opening file drawers while backs were turned and finding files that officials claimed didn't exist, and spending weeks in the finance office going through every annual audit.]

Anyway, what we found was that up until about 1956, two years after the Democratic Revotution, the taxes paid per capita and spending received was pretty equally spread among all districts. If you know your history, you know that that is about when sugar began to die, tourism started to take off, and the County of Hawaii went on a subdividing frenzy in Puna and Ka'u. From then until 1992, and I am 90% sure continuing until now, Hilo paid way less in taxes per capita, and received way more in CIP spending than any other districts.

This was accomplished in various ways that still apply.
Homeowner exemptions and lower rates: Hilo has a far higher level of homeownership than Kona. Puna is similar in ownership rates to Hilo but has so many vacant lots that were created specifically to tax absentee owners to subsidize Hilo. The rate structure became so skewed to keep Hilo's taxes low that by 1994 a vacant lot in Puna typically paid more in taxes than the lot with the owner-occupied house next door. (Now there's a great way to provide for services for incoming residents!). And in Kona, as property values rose, tax bills rose even more, paid by renters.

The further complicating factor, which we didn't look at at the time, was the effect on the operating budget. If all that CIP spending accumulated a Level of Service of almost 10 acres of developed county park per 1000 people for Hilo vs under 2 acres for Puna, in 1998 (when we did the LOS study) what does that mean for salaries and retirements paid to park staff in Hilo vs Puna (or Kona)? (Note: 5 acres of active park per 1000 is the national and Hawaii County standard.) It means that the operating budget is heavily skewed to Hilo long after CIP stops, making corrections almost impossible.

Note that the data we developed is not disputed by anyone that I know of in the County. In fact, County officials happily provided me with the damning data. The good ones are just a disgusted as I am. Also note that since there has been about 5 acres of new park in Puna since then and no parks in Hilo shut down, while Puna's population has probably doubled, the Level of service disparity between Hilo and Puna is far worse now than in 1998.

Among other factors to consider: Most of the miles driven by Puna and Ocean View residents are on roads they maintain at their own expense. Yet the gas burned contributes federal, state, and county gas taxes. We once did a spreadsheet to calculate a dollar amount of county gas taxes produced annually by gas burned on HOVE roads. It was in the hundreds of thousands ten years ago. No doubt millions now. County DPW officials recognized this, and some forward thinking ones were considering giving the subdivisions road corporations a county subsidy - because the subdivisions make transportation dollars go so much farther than government, and it is patently unsustainable to keep collecting gas taxes and then telling those subdivisions they must maintain their own roads. This is further complicated by the fact that in 1968 the county widened their minimum road Right Of Way standards specifically to prevent the subdivisions they had just approved, from ever being able to dedicate their roads to the County.

It is a complicated business. Remember that Hilo was washed away in 1960 and felt justified in sucking from all over.

Interesting discussion. I would like to encourage current a future data diggers. It is all there. I had been defending Hilo's greed with some of the urban vs. rural arguments I have seen here, but the data made me eat my words. Hilo was and is a hugely disproportionate winner, and the situation continues to deteriorate as Kona, Puna, and Ka'u gain population. Even if the political will existed, what exactly would we do to correct it?

Pua'i Mana'o

June 14th, 2007, 03:46 PM

Ala Nihi, welcome to HT and what a fabulous entrance you made. I appreciate reading your overview and would like to learn further what data did you specifically look at that drove these conclusions?

Konaguy

June 14th, 2007, 04:01 PM

Ala Nihi, welcome to HT also. I appreciate your contribution to this thread also.That was my point in why I forwarded you the link to it. As I felt you could supply some meaningful facts to support my argument.

Ala Nihi

June 14th, 2007, 06:17 PM

Regarding specific data: For tax records we got the annual tax accounting of revenues from the tax office - it breaks receipts down by district, tax category, total valuations, etc. Prior to 1967 or so, county taxes were collected by the state, but the old files have been transferred to the county tax office. For the capital spending by district we had to tally line items for every project in the County annual reports. We had to make a few arbitrary decisions there - some projects, such as roadways get their funds from a changing mix of sources. But we decided that even if all the funds were not from county property tax revenues, it better represented political decisions about proportionate shares for the districts to include all county capital improvement projects. The documentation fills a file box.

We got out population data from county data books, and before the 1970s from simple interpolations of Census data.

For Level of Service, we relied on inventories from County Departments. They have inventories of parks, police stations, staffing by area, etc., for the asking. All you have to do is divide it by the thousands of people in that district. Quite simple. What is revealing is that such simple to calculate and universally accepted methods of measuring equal treatment in public serrvices is NOT in tables in the County Data Book.

Our 1998 Level of service Study, while ignored in PUBLIC by public officials, evidently made some waves in backrooms. After that the Police Department started reporting Level of Serice in things like their section of the County General Plan, trying to close police stations where no one lived anymore, and put new ones and more personnel in Puna. They appeared to get it that the population of Hawaiian Paradise Park alone is several times the total population of North Hilo, Hamakua and North Kohala put togehter, but HPP has NO public services. It may also have helped that I filed a federal Environmental Justice Complaint with the Department of Justice regarding police protection. Because the Police Department receives federal funds from DOJ, they must comply with civil rights regulations regarding equal treatment of low-income communities. Police officers and officials were privately grateful for the excuse we provided in their constant battle with the politics of favoritism.

If you look at my website, bonniegoodell.com, you can also look at the EJ Complaint to the federal Department of Transportation and their Finding. That was an even more egregious situation. Our whistleblowing led to all kinds of backroom handwringing (which we only glimpsed), and public posturing, and ultimately to the Puna Circulation Plan funding and the new Puna CDP.

An HDOT officials recently noted on the Trib's front page that a mid-level road through HPP must wait for future long range planning. That problem is a direct result of the data fraud that we filed the federal complaint about. The data was invented in 1992, for the Hawaii Long Range Transporation Plan. The HLRTP must be the source for any federally funded project on the annual HDOT Transportation Improvement Project (TIP) List. I and others on their Citizens Advisory Committee screamed bloody murder about the polutation projections inputted into the traffic models for four years. They ignored us. When they put out the bad HLRTP in 1998 we filed a federal complaint. We then had to goad the feds to follow their own rules and investigate. When they Found we were completely right, the County and the State commenced hilarious mutual finger pointing. BUT, that completely discredited HLRTP (which projected virtually no future population growth in Puna except in future subdivisions planned for Keaau by W.H. Shipman) is still the foundation document which must be the source for any TIP project, and as far as I know there is still no movement to update that plan. Maybe they are waiting for me to die.

TuNnL

June 15th, 2007, 04:20 AM

The explanation does not make any sense to me. I cited my supporting evidence. None of you want to believe it since its too old. But I strongly believe the services/infrastructure disparity does exist.Now you are making two different arguments. If you scroll back, you will see I only disputed your bashing of Mayor Kim’s statement of $2 for every $1 in tax. I never said their wasn’t an overall service/infrastructure disparity — but as Ala Nihi points out, that’s because of decades of neglect PRIOR to Mayor Kim taking office. You yourself have admitted (http://hawaiithreads.com/showpost.php?p=148597&postcount=85) that at least one situation can be blamed for a decision made 30 years ago.

As I’ve said twice now, in the West Hawai‘i Today article, Mayor Kim is almost certainly talking about what is happening during his administration, or at least including that time period. Therefore, Aaron, it was a cheap shot for you to dismiss him using unscientific “supporting evidence” (you drove to Puna and had a look around).

Re-read Monkeyman's post (http://hawaiithreads.com/showpost.php?p=148252&postcount=58). That's a good starting point to understanding what Tim and Joshuatree are trying to convey. To me, the explanation is simple enough for a 7th grader to understand: Low density = higher infrastructure cost. In other words the county could spend $2 for every $1 in tax and Puna would STILL appear to be getting less to the naked eye. Duh!!!

Puna is similar in ownership rates to Hilo but has so many vacant lots that were created specifically to tax absentee owners to subsidize Hilo.And now we get to the heart of the matter. First of all, welcome, Ala Nihi. Finally someone who can argue Aaron’s side with real data.

I personally object to the idea of absentee owners buying up property in Puna, or anywhere else in our tiny island community. So if the objective of making more lots was spurred by speculators, I say good for them. Local land should be for people who live here. The reason property is so expensive in Hawai‘i is because we don’t have any means of discouraging outside investment. And that means more of our island sons and daughters must unfortunately, disconnect with the ‘aina, and move away. :(