Women in a man's world - What are your views?

[acousticlady]

This is a topic I have not seen touched on and I would truely like get an opinion on. Many of us are from different cultures, many of which historically do not treat women very well. Of course, on the surface, we say we have made great strides. I am very lucky in that I come from a long line of very strong (emotionally), highly educated women. It wasn't until I was in college that the idea of men and women being equal might not be the norm in many homes.

I saw a news story today where an organization has made a safe haven for arab women in the West Bank. In those countries women still do not have any rights at all. It got me to thinking about some women even in this country do not believe they have any rights. I know of one woman personally who is living a life of abuse. No matter what I say to her, she still believes her life is with her husband and ultimately must do as he says. This is not someone who comes from some 3rd world country. Nor is she from a culture that would have instilled this idea in her. She does lack education and will never get one. It is a very rough situation for me. I have to watch what I say. If I push to hard, she will have no one to talk to. I have gained her trust enough that she will call me just to talk it out when the drunken SOB is passed out. But what do you say? If she tries to leave he threatens her life. Cops have been brought in way too many times. I am godmother to her three boys and she has taken legal steps to insure that my husband and I get the boys should the unthinkable happen. I feel very helpless in this situation. All I feel I can do is to be there for her to listen. I rarely see her in person. But I know I am the only person she has to talk to. So, I listen.

I honestly didn't mean to dump all this on you. It kind of came out as I started writing. My real aim is to start a conversation on women existing in a man's world despite the so called great strides we have made. I am really interested in your thoughts on these issues (both men and women). Correct me if I am wrong (and I know you will - I count on it) but weren't women treated very poorly in early Hawaiian culture? Has it changed much? Of course I realize that education is everything. But what about those who have not had that opportunity?

[Miulang]

This is a topic I have not seen touched on and I would truely like get an opinion on. Many of us are from different cultures, many of which historically do not treat women very well. Of course, on the surface, we say we have made great strides. I am very lucky in that I come from a long line of very strong (emotionally), highly educated women. It wasn't until I was in college that the idea of men and women being equal might not be the norm in many homes.

I saw a news story today where an organization has made a safe haven for arab women in the West Bank. In those countries women still do not have any rights at all. It got me to thinking about some women even in this country do not believe they have any rights. I know of one woman personally who is living a life of abuse. No matter what I say to her, she still believes her life is with her husband and ultimately must do as he says. This is not someone who comes from some 3rd world country. Nor is she from a culture that would have instilled this idea in her. She does lack education and will never get one. It is a very rough situation for me. I have to watch what I say. If I push to hard, she will have no one to talk to. I have gained her trust enough that she will call me just to talk it out when the drunken SOB is passed out. But what do you say? If she tries to leave he threatens her life. Cops have been brought in way too many times. I am godmother to her three boys and she has taken legal steps to insure that my husband and I get the boys should the unthinkable happen. I feel very helpless in this situation. All I feel I can do is to be there for her to listen. I rarely see her in person. But I know I am the only person she has to talk to. So, I listen.

I honestly didn't mean to dump all this on you. It kind of came out as I started writing. My real aim is to start a conversation on women existing in a man's world despite the so called great strides we have made. I am really interested in your thoughts on these issues (both men and women). Correct me if I am wrong (and I know you will - I count on it) but weren't women treated very poorly in early Hawaiian culture? Has it changed much? Of course I realize that education is everything. But what about those who have not had that opportunity?
Wow. That's just awful. Thank you for being the shoulder to cry on for your friend. It's more awful to be in a domestic abuse situation in Hawai'i than on CONUS because to get away from the abuser, you can't just hop in the car and "disappear" to another town or State. Everybody kinda knows everybody else's business too, which also makes it hard.

I'll let others on HT express their opinions on the early kanaka maoli kane treatment of their wahine. I do know that ancient Hawai'i had many powerful women rulers and "women behind the men".

If you or your friend need emergency help, please contact the Maui Peace Center (http://www.pacthawaii.org/maui_peace_center.html) if you haven't already. They can give you and your friend advice on next steps. It's not OK for anyone to have to live in an abusive situation (man or woman), because if an adult in this kind of relationship is getting abused (it doesn't have to be physical abuse, it can be mental abuse too), the kids in the family will suffer eventually, too.

Malama pono,
Miulang

[acousticlady]

if an adult in this kind of relationship is getting abused (it doesn't have to be physical abuse, it can be mental abuse too), the kids in the family will suffer eventually, too.

Malama pono,
Miulang

Unfortunately, this particular situation has been going on for 16 yrs. I have gone through all the emotions. She doesn't really want to help herself. My husband and I have chosen to be a part of the kid's lives in the hope that, just maybe, they will see that there are other kinds of relationships out there. We have probably been more involved in their lives than in the lives of their mother and father. The oldest has begun acting out - I fear he will go the route of dad and have told him so. He has always been very vocal about not wanting to be anything like his father. And yet, I see it happening.

In general, this is a very difficult subject for people to talk about. I hope we can get a discussion going. It is only by talking about it openly that real change can begin. Too many of us know someone who knows someone.....

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I am confused here. Is the point of this discussion domestic violence? You asked a broad question in the title and a few more at the end, but it is pretty clear that your heart on the matter is focused on someone who isn't living a life you would recommend. Unfortunately, I cannot reconcile the two very different topics. I don't know how to answer you; I don't understand what it is you are asking here.

[acousticlady]

I am confused here. Is the point of this discussion domestic violence? You asked a broad question in the title and a few more at the end, but it is pretty clear that your heart on the matter is focused on someone who isn't living a life you would recommend. Unfortunately, I cannot reconcile the two very different topics. I don't know how to answer you; I don't understand what it is you are asking here.

Sorry about that. I really wanted the broader discussion. I started talking about that person as an example of how, on the surface we talk about what great strides have been made, but underneath that surface very little has changed for a lot of women. Domestic violence being only one example. I then responded to Miulang's response. Sometimes what is in my head doesn't come across in writing as clearly.

[GeckoGeek]

If you're talking about your friend, I don't know what to suggest. I think you're practicing what I do - in that it's really her decision. There's nothing you can do to force the issue. At best you can take the opportunity when it arises to ask questions, to guide her in looking at her options and help her to see that she can have something better.

As for society in general - perhaps a lesson added to the "health" class in grade school? That's about where you'd have to start when girls are just staring to explore relationships and what works and what doesn't for them. And quite possibly where they start some kind of cycle of "I deserve this/I can't get anything better then this."

[68-eldo]

Acousticlady, you have chosen a very difficult path, and I applaud you on that choice. It is great that you have discovered that if you push too hard your friend will pull away from you. It’s important to maintain contact with her.

There are questions that come to mind such as is the guy only abusive when drunk? If so then it may be mostly an alcohol problem. There is an organization called Al-anon I think that helps people that live with alcoholics. I suggest you contact them. It might be easiest to contact Alcoholics anonymous and talk to them. I’m sure they can steer you in the right direction even if it is not an alcohol problem. It is a very tough path you are walking and it helps to have people that have been down that road to advise you.

There is also an organization that I see marching every time a woman dies because of an abusive husband or boyfriend. I can’t think of their name right now. But they might be helpful too.

Keep in mind that all you can do is throw her a rope. If she chooses not to grab hold of the rope to be pulled to safety there is nothing more you can do and you should not blame yourself if the worst happens.

[sinjin]

How many abusive men have no mothers? Women need to take some responsibility in these cycles. Stop blaming men for your lack of self-esteem.

[Karen]

Well..what a heavy subject in this day and time! It is fast becoming a woman'w world, too. Women deserve to be paid wages equal to a man if and when they do the same job and as fine a job as a man would've, etc, of course.

I have to admit the truth of my views. IF.....we lived in a true paradise on earth, and men weren't oinking for pleasures and weren't like the crap we see on tv sitcoms, no not all men, generalizing to say the least, if, in my personal vew....men were honorable, noble, patient, kind but firm, if most women could truly respect most men, holding them up almost as our own consciences, even......yeah right, I speak of a dream, of how God intended it, in my opinion.....then the bible's instructions could truly be adhered to.

New paragraph only for ease of reading...if men were that fantastic and honorable, then it could be as bible says it should be....which is...

God over man, man over woman, and woman over the children. However, it ain't nuttin like that, and so thank goodness women have taken the lead in so many things. No woman needs a man as boss if she in all honesty has her own conscience as boss and does her best to obey. However...my bible was written in antiquity and neither sex is better than the other when it comes to being a shining example of right and wrong, so....

I don't believe it's really a man's world anymore and rightly so.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

weren't women treated very poorly in early Hawaiian culture? Has it changed much? AL, is your friend Hawaiian? Is she not, but married to one? Is that why you ask the question?

I will tell you what I saw, in that I've had the privilege to see three generations of Hawaiian women above me. I knew one of my great-grandmothers and great-grandfathers (they were married), both grandmothers and grandfathers and my parents. My ggrandmother was tough as nails--she died when I was 15 and her husband followed within a few months. They lived their whole lives in a fishing village. Their daughter who raised me was equally tough, outspoken, self-educated and stern in her views, be they about motherhood, Hawaiian rights, kuleana, God, expectations for us. I know that those two women, in their early years of marriage to their husbands (that means my ggrandfather and grandfather), there was domestic violence. I know it subsided as time went on. I know that those two women got stronger as the years went by. With my own parents, there was no physical violence but the battles waged nonetheless. And time softened their temperaments, too.

I am reluctant to lump them into the category of "spousal abusive relationships" because that doesn't capture the essence of who they were/are, and the people they evolved into. Every male I mentioned above had great respect for their wives--I witnessed it many times with my own eyes. I heard story after story of what each did to the other. I never saw self-pity for one's fate, unless talking about how hard it was to live in the T.H., economic hard times, other personal things. With my grandmother, nobody could grumble about my grandfather to her; she defended him until he died and seemed to understand what made that man tick.

I see this in my own marriage to a Hawaiian man. Our battles are fierce. Neither one is a push-over. Yet I have had well-intentioned friends who wondered why I will not <insert Maury Povich-speak here>. But I am comfortable in my life, and comfortable that wherever our battles takes us, I know that we will pull through. We always do. I do not fear him. I respect him. And ditto, even when he is a pain in my @ss. But I would not change this. I know that if I ever cried "help!" he would be there to help me. Lucky for him, he didn't marry a woman who cries for help. ;)

Well..what a heavy subject in this day and time! It is fast becoming a woman'w world, too. Women deserve to be paid wages equal to a man if and when they do the same job and as fine a job as a man would've, etc, of course.

I have to admit the truth of my views. IF.....we lived in a true paradise on earth, and men weren't oinking for pleasures and weren't like the crap we see on tv sitcoms, no not all men, generalizing to say the least, if, in my personal vew....men were honorable, noble, patient, kind but firm, if most women could truly respect most men, holding them up almost as our own consciences, even......yeah right, I speak of a dream, of how God intended it, in my opinion.....then the bible's instructions could truly be adhered to.

New paragraph only for ease of reading...if men were that fantastic and honorable, then it could be as bible says it should be....which is...

God over man, man over woman, and woman over the children. However, it ain't nuttin like that, and so thank goodness women have taken the lead in so many things. No woman needs a man as boss if she in all honesty has her own conscience as boss and does her best to obey. However...my bible was written in antiquity and neither sex is better than the other when it comes to being a shining example of right and wrong, so....

I don't believe it's really a man's world anymore and rightly so.
uhh...

I think feminism has taken a sucker punch and it pisses me off that its greatest ideals and practices are now relegated to "fringe lesbian planned parenthood whackos" (that's the press release, anyway) and that not enough of us middle class soccer moms are doing enough to champion the efforts that our own mothers and fathers fought for 2-3 decades ago.

How many women proudly say that we are feminists? On the internet, I have seen the opposite as a disingenuous qualifier prior to waxing poetic about something, and it pisses me off. How many understand what feminism is? What its roots are? How many women take for granted that the vote has been legal to us ovarian-Americans for <100yrs? Or that we may maintain property in our name? Own our own businesses? Keep our own children? Control our own fertility? Not be consigned to a payscale specific to our gender? (that was legal up until the 1960's. btw).

I have children of both genders. I want strength and the fullness of free will available to both. Likewise, I wish them the just weight of accountabilty for their actions and options, and neither being held up because of said gender.

[Karen]

Guess the way we see it is strongly affected by who we know and what our own lives are like. I'm doing exactly what I want to do at this time, and both of my sisters are, too. I know a ton of women that are making good salaries and the married ones all, LOL...control the finances in their/our marriages, by control I mean there is no higher authority, it's a team but we women conduct all of the financial and otherwise business.

I don't have to say...I am a feminist, just keep speaking up about everything that affects me, being a kitchen table lobbyist, etc. however, even I don't want a woman president, so figure that one out.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I want a competent leader, but would never think, much less say that I DON'T want a female president. So no, I cannot figure that one out.

[sinjin]

How much maternity leave do you suppose a female President could take?

[Pua'i Mana'o]

lessee....how much time off does the Prez normally take per year? =D

As far as I know, no woman who is in the running is in her childbearing years, although I believe there is some precedence set by the fed govt as the President is a federal employee.

[acousticlady]

How many abusive men have no mothers? Women need to take some responsibility in these cycles. Stop blaming men for your lack of self-esteem.

You know, you are absolutely right. It is a double-edged sword. Personally, I have no problem with my own self-esteem (maybe having too much - ha,ha). But I agree that it is partly the responsibility of the mothers to instill that same self-esteem in their sons and to instill a respect for women in them as well. I have made sure that I did that with my own son and I see it in the way he treats women. I am very proud of the person he has become.

I glad you brought up the issue of self-esteem. I think that this has a whole lot to do with it. If someone does not have a healthy self-esteem, very often they will try to bolster that by taking it out on others.

uhh...

I think feminism has taken a sucker punch and it pisses me off that its greatest ideals and practices are now relegated to "fringe lesbian planned parenthood whackos" (that's the press release, anyway) and that not enough of us middle class soccer moms are doing enough to champion the efforts that our own mothers and fathers fought for 2-3 decades ago.

How many women proudly say that we are feminists? On the internet, I have seen the opposite as a disingenuous qualifier prior to waxing poetic about something, and it pisses me off. How many understand what feminism is? What its roots are? How many women take for granted that the vote has been legal to us ovarian-Americans for <100yrs? Or that we may maintain property in our name? Own our own businesses? Keep our own children? Control our own fertility? Not be consigned to a payscale specific to our gender? (that was legal up until the 1960's. btw).

I have children of both genders. I want strength and the fullness of free will available to both. Likewise, I wish them the just weight of accountabilty for their actions and options, and neither being held up because of said gender.

Yeah! You are absolutely correct in that the image of feminism has severely taken a beating :eek:. Many, many women are afraid to call themselves feminists for fear that they will be percieved as lesbians. Even in my school where liberalism and feminism rule. I see PhDs who are afraid to call themselves feminists. Though I believe it is the term "feminist" and not the idea.

You mention voting and property rights having been legal for less than 100 yrs. I am very proud to say that my grandmother (one of the first women biologists) was a staunch supporter and helped paved the way - as was my grandfather. My great-grandmother was one of the leading ladies in this cause!

[Karen]

I want a competent leader, but would never think, much less say that I DON'T want a female president. So no, I cannot figure that one out.


I prefer male bosses, too. That's all I've ever had and the only soap opera type troubles I ever had on the job was from another female with too much time on her hands and too nosey, etc.

You bet I don't want a female president, but if ever there is one running that is clearly more respectable than any man running, I'll sigh and vote for that honorable female over the men.

[Miulang]

But "equality" can mean different things to different people, too. If you equate equality with economic parity, then women as a whole are still lagging, except for certain professions. And in this society, he who brings home the bacon (or who brings more of it home) usually is the one who's more "equal". Therefore, if you just look at absolute dollar earning power, it does appear that men are superior over say, a "homemaker" and stay at home mother.

But studies have shown that if you put a price tag to each and every task a stay-at-home Mom has to accomplish on any given day, her salary would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars annually. And she doesn't get health benefits or vacation from her work, either, and must be on call 24x7. A Mom who also works fulll time compounds her monetary value but is put into a pretty tough situation, especially when the kids are young. And if that working Mom with young kids is the sole breadwinner for the family, well, no wonder there are sometimes behavioral problems in the kids.

But if you talk about emotional complexity, I think women have it in spades over men. Men are pretty direct in their emotions, but women tend not to be so direct. And if you believe the "Men are from Mars" theory, men and women from the beginning of time have had problems communicating with each other. One positive outcome of the GLB movement is to prove that most social roles can be assumed by either sex (as can most jobs). About the only thing that science has yet to discover is how to make a man pregnant.:eek:

So it is a very distinct possibility that we could have a woman President someday, if not now. In fact, I would rather have a woman President before I would vote for a distinctly ethnic minority male candidate if both were equally qualified. Why? Because the battle between men and women is far more important than one between the races and has been around for far longer.

Miulang

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I prefer male bosses, too. That's all I've ever had and the only soap opera type troubles I ever had on the job was from another female with too much time on her hands and too nosey, etc.

You bet I don't want a female president, but if ever there is one running that is clearly more respectable than any man running, I'll sigh and vote for that honorable female over the men.

Golly Karen, if you cannot trust a woman to run a country with its many checks and balances, or even a fleet of staff who are protected by the myriads of laws and courts, how could you trust women to properly guide and advocate for those who aren't empowered to lobby on their behalf--the children?

[PoiBoy]

I don't believe men and women are equal.

[Karen]

Golly Karen, if you cannot trust a woman to run a country with its many checks and balances, or even a fleet of staff who are protected by the myriads of laws and courts, how could you trust women to properly guide and advocate for those who aren't empowered to lobby on their behalf--the children?

I don't know if it's as much a trust issue as a respect issue. I have no respect for the billary team, so that's moot cuz this is a woman's issue. Like I said, every job I've worked, the few that they are, I had male bosses and they were even-handed and no-nonsense. I didn't have a female boss and know that there are some good ones, while I prefer a male boss cuz in the office what I saw was women being more emotionally activated and along with it went nonsense & soap opera crap.

I dare to admit that I prefer male bosses and male cops. I am not surprised that women are still very much a minority on every police force I've noticed. I dare to say that men make better cops. While I feel women have the right to be a cop if they can pass muster, I don't feel they are WISE to do so. I assure you, my feeling this way will always be a secret to any female cop I am around, including a friend that's no longer one. (no, she doesn't read here, lol)

[acousticlady]

I prefer male bosses, too. That's all I've ever had and the only soap opera type troubles I ever had on the job was from another female with too much time on her hands and too nosey, etc.

You bet I don't want a female president, but if ever there is one running that is clearly more respectable than any man running, I'll sigh and vote for that honorable female over the men.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe you should come work for me??? Got a PhD in Physics? Sorry..... being a little sarcastic there. However, while there are women in this world who like to create "soap opera type troubles", I can assure you, from personal experience that there are many qualified women in all kinds of fields who are running industries, universities and governments. No matter what, positions of authority should be held by the most qualified person. It should not matter if that person is a male or female, black, white of polka dotted. I have every confidence that I am in the position I am in because of my qualifications - and ....I have maintained that position because I know what I am doing. Because I am in a field with so few women, I have had to prove myself early on. I would not have been accepted otherwise.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I have had both genders as bosses and it wasn't their gender, but their emotional maturity that determined how I regarded them. I am the boss now. I concern myself with those elements over which I have control and do not fret over those which I do not.

[Karen]

LOL Phd in Physics! Won't change what can be observed and that is also, when you look at any fire dept. you'll see mostly men. That's cuz generally speaking, most men are stronger than most women.

I have a very close friend back home in Texas that wanted to be an EMS tech. She found out that in San Antonio, you have to become a fireman first, then be accepted to be the tech from there. She wanted it so badly and yet had no desire to be a fireman except that it could bring her to tech, so she tried and failed the physical part every time, and part of that was like dragging a hundred pounds or something, I think that was it. Not surprising...

Editing this in here, glad it'll still let me. Dig this! Boulder, colorado passed this law long before most of us were born.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56808

[Menehune Man]

I have to admit the truth of my views. IF.....we lived in a true paradise on earth, and men weren't oinking for pleasures and weren't like the crap we see on tv sitcoms, no not all men, generalizing to say the least, if, in my personal vew....men were honorable, noble, patient, kind but firm, if most women could truly respect most men, holding them up almost as our own consciences, even......yeah right, I speak of a dream, of how God intended it, in my opinion.....then the bible's instructions could truly be adhered to.

New paragraph only for ease of reading...if men were that fantastic and honorable, then it could be as bible says it should be....which is...

God over man, man over woman, and woman over the children. However, it ain't nuttin like that, and so thank goodness women have taken the lead in so many things. No woman needs a man as boss if she in all honesty has her own conscience as boss and does her best to obey. However...my bible was written in antiquity and neither sex is better than the other when it comes to being a shining example of right and wrong, so....

I don't believe it's really a man's world anymore and rightly so.

And if women did what was right... ? Because you surely can't believe that more men than women are self serving.
It goes both ways and hand in hand. IMO

[1stwahine]

I dare to admit that I prefer male bosses and male cops. I am not surprised that women are still very much a minority on every police force I've noticed. I dare to say that men make better cops. While I feel women have the right to be a cop if they can pass muster, I don't feel they are WISE to do so. I assure you, my feeling this way will always be a secret to any female cop I am around, including a friend that's no longer one. (no, she doesn't read here, lol)

I've been watching this thread.

Domestic Abuse ~ We all know someone or heard of someone.:o

I've been abused. Yeah, stupid me. The Cycle of Abuse is a hard one to break. Low Self Esteem, Fear, Love, Excuses upon Excuses. It's all BS!! However, one hit can be a mistake and it can work out if the parties agree to get counseling.:)

Now to the above quote.

Karen I respect "your" Opinion. Let me tell you something about two young women whom I know. They volunteered to fight for our country. One went to Iraq at the same time with her brother. She was there 15 months. The other to Korea. Their mother was asked by Tina Shelton if there was a difference between Male and Female Soldiers? She said "NO! They're ALL SOLDIERS!!!"

Now the younger one became an HPD Police Officer. Yes, she has the muster. Was she WISE to do so? You betcha!! She still serves in the AF National Guard too.

How do I know all this? I am their MOTHER!

And a very Strong Wahine!!

Love and ALOHA

Auntie Lynn

btw: I've kicked Men's Okoles many a times in the business world and on the street. If I found I couldn't win with my brains or hands, I'd pick-up anything to betta my chances. I'm not dumb. I'm PuPule!hahahaha

[Sprite]

I keep reloading this conversation and watching it. I'm having a hard time because I agree with just about everyone for one reason or another.

I agree with Karen on a lot of things. I don't want a female President either. I also prefer a male boss (the one I have know is an exception because she is exceptional).

I think women can do most of the things men can do and probably better! I'm a tita and a b*tch, and proud of it!

I to have endured the heavy-handed partner.

But, at the risk of making a sentimental fool of myself, I care very deeply about our male counterparts. For the most part they are gentle, loving, over-grown children. That's the maternal instinct talking I guess. They need our love and that makes them special. Besides, their strange and it's interesting to try to figure them out. HA HA! :p

Seriously, the most help that I have gotten on things (house, automobile, Internet, whatever) has been from men. I get along with them better than I do women and they're not mean when I say something stupid... they just laugh when I realize I did something dumb.

Menehune Man is right too, the gold diggers and self-serving individuals I have seen have been female.

I have great respect for the ladies like acousticlady and 1stwahine because they have earned their way! I have NO respect for gold diggers, male or female.

What's my point? I have no idea. I told you I was having a hard time. I guess that means that I think we're equal... we just get to that equality differently.

[Leo Lakio]

Interesting to see how many people would not want a female president. I'd be quite happy to have one - just not the one who is prominently featured amongst the present Democratic contenders.

I'd also like to see non-white presidents someday, as well as gay ones. But then, I'd really like to see the day where none of those factors matter at all; not gender, not race, not religious affiliation, not sexual orientation - but rather, their performance as a leader.

It won't happen in my lifetime, unfortunately. We're more likely to see an "American Idol"-type presidential election before that.

[kamuelakea]

I'd also like to see non-white presidents someday, as well as gay ones. But then, I'd really like to see the day where none of those factors matter at all; not gender, not race, not religious affiliation, not sexual orientation - but rather, their performance as a leader.

It won't happen in my lifetime, unfortunately. We're more likely to see an "American Idol"-type presidential election before that.

Stop being human Mr. Leo Lakio.

Don't blame it on American Idol.

Go to China, one of the most racist countries in the world. You might think, but how can they be racist if they are all Chinese. Try as a Mandarin about a Cantonese. China has a million different "levels" of "chineseness" and they are absolutely racist to anyone who they perceive as below them.

Go to Japan and ask a Japanese what they think of an Okinawan. One is human the other a monkey. You guess which is which.

So humans could be cloned into identical beings and they would invent a way to be racist.

Please read the fine intellectual volume entitled "The Sneetches" by Dr. Seuss. Pretty much calls it.

And by the way, if the Homosexual mafia is always arguing that sexual preference DOESN'T matter, then why should it matter what a President's sexual preference may be. Always the hypocritical and intolerant left.

Back on topic.

Women have always ruled the world.

They still do.

If they want the power, it is theirs.

I don't even understand the women's movement.

I think many of the women of my generation have been brainwashed into thinking that "traditional" womens roles are always demeaning.

I see most of these women abandoning their children to grandparents, aunties or even strangers. I see these women dumping their children at "daycare" beginning at 2 or 3 years old.

Seems to me they are voluntarily abandoning the most amazing incredible opportunity of human life ---- to bring life into the world and to nurture that life and then set it free.

What possible job or house or car or money could beat that as a reason to live?

Women have always ruled the world.

[cynsaligia]

several things, in a not-so-organized manner:

i was a victim of domestic violence, for seven years, and it's been just as long since i left that relationship. while i didn't deserve the abuse, i understand why i accepted the relationship for as long as i did.

my mother and grandmother raised me--both strong women, in their own way. my father was largely absent. the year he was supposed to move to hawaii, he was killed in a drunk driving accident. he was a passenger.

i was born the same year as Roe v. Wade. had my mother not come to the US as late in her pregnancy as she did, the MDs would have asked her to consider seriously aborting me due to a serious heart condition that had been left undiscovered while she was in the philippines. still, i am a staunch supporter of women's reproductive rights and it is one of three issued which will decide my vote for a candidate.

i'm a clintonite feminist, and i'm proud to say it. so is my mother.

i don't see men or women being superior or inferior to the other--there are certain things men, in general, do better than women and there are certain things women, in general, do better than men. however, to make blanket statements about one gender or the other is just idiotic. it doesn't take more than two active brain cells to see that there are a multitude of exceptions.

i feel sorry for those who feel they would rather have a boss of one gender over the other. rotten bosses abound in both genders. great ones are just as few in one gender as the other.

to the original poster--what you are doing now regarding your friend is absolutely the best thing you can do. take it from someone who has been in your friend's shoes. hopefully, she will somehow miraculously wake up, and if she is, she will really need and appreciate you then. in fact, if she has not or does not say it--i thank you.

the group that does the marches, i believe, is the coalition against domestic violence.

[Menehune Man]

I keep reloading this conversation and watching it. I'm having a hard time because I agree with just about everyone for one reason or another.

I agree with Karen on a lot of things. I don't want a female President either. I also prefer a male boss (the one I have know is an exception because she is exceptional).

I think women can do most of the things men can do and probably better! I'm a tita and a b*tch, and proud of it!

I to have endured the heavy-handed partner.

But, at the risk of making a sentimental fool of myself, I care very deeply about our male counterparts. For the most part they are gentle, loving, over-grown children. That's the maternal instinct talking I guess. They need our love and that makes them special. Besides, their strange and it's interesting to try to figure them out. HA HA! :p

Seriously, the most help that I have gotten on things (house, automobile, Internet, whatever) has been from men. I get along with them better than I do women and they're not mean when I say something stupid... they just laugh when I realize I did something dumb.

Menehune Man is right too, the gold diggers and self-serving individuals I have seen have been female.

I have great respect for the ladies like acousticlady and 1stwahine because they have earned their way! I have NO respect for gold diggers, male or female.

What's my point? I have no idea. I told you I was having a hard time. I guess that means that I think we're equal... we just get to that equality differently.

Well written on many levels. We are equals. Thanks!

[Karen]

Menehune Man, my answer to you is in the same post of mine that you replied to....I said "and neither sex is better than the other when it comes to being a shining example of right and wrong, so...."

1stwahine, I disagree that all soldiers are the same. The men soldiers can carry one of their own, deadweight, while most of the female soldiers cannot. Most men are stronger than women. I'm the mom-in-law of a soldier that returns to Iraq in a few mos. & close friends with a couple that the lady has been there with the guard. She could tell you that there are weapons she can't hardly carry or handle. She did a desk job with interpreters. About a woman being a police, the ones that can....pass muster, I do not understand their motivation while I dig their moxy.

I'm a very strong person and have lifted weights since the seventies, and joke about being a macho mama, but I am strong within the boundaries of things I wouldn't want to do nor compete with a man in. That's where we all are different. I was raised by two parents, both wonderful and of faith. They raised three dynomite daughters cuz they taught us to not take crap from anyone, and we don't. I like that in other gals, too, you bet. I love you too, gal.

Sprite, manipulative females that use people and play games, in my opinion are straight from hell, and I bet we gals on this thread can recognize one a mile away.

Yeah, we're equal in modern times. Neither sex rules, both sexes have people that are good at just about anything and both have some that are bad at just about everything.

[1stwahine]

My daughter is here with me right now.heheheh

She's 5'2". "I've never met a challenge I couldn't do nor have had any problem carrying any weapon. Being a Soldier is not about being strong. It's NOT about having Ballz...it's about having TACT & INTELLIGENCE to complete a MISSION.

I've never backed down from anything in the Military and I'm respected more by the Men in my Unit because I am a WOMAN. I am a female, a mother, and a soldier in the United States Military. Point Blank."

[Karen]

I congratulate you and thank you for your desire to serve your country, and then your doing it. big huggz for that...

I respectfully disagree in that being a soldier is many things and one soldier's job is often very different than the next. Being strong certainly is one of the things it is about and of course depending upon the job, strength, matters much in one soldier's role while it matters little in another. My hubby could tell you many stories of why it was good he didn't fight in 'Nam next to any females, and how some of the females he later served with in the Navy would never have made it in the fields of 'Nam.

I am not surprised you are respected as you should be. You obviously are doing a dedicated job and have had no trouble fulfilling whatever job it is they assigned you, and you are rocking it.

huggz~

[PoiBoy]

Back on topic.

Women have always ruled the world.

They still do.

If they want the power, it is theirs.

I don't even understand the women's movement.

I think many of the women of my generation have been brainwashed into thinking that "traditional" womens roles are always demeaning.

I see most of these women abandoning their children to grandparents, aunties or even strangers. I see these women dumping their children at "daycare" beginning at 2 or 3 years old.

Seems to me they are voluntarily abandoning the most amazing incredible opportunity of human life ---- to bring life into the world and to nurture that life and then set it free.

What possible job or house or car or money could beat that as a reason to live?

Women have always ruled the world.

And how about formula milk? :rolleyes: Many mothers nowadays choose to feed their babies formula. whatsupwithdat?

Its the system. :D Back in the days it didn't take 2 parents working a 9-5 to support a family.

So all you feminist can keep pushing for equality, keep trying to "prove yourself" :rolleyes: All the while "The Man" is benefiting off of your stupidity. You ignore your real worth in society.

"Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children" -William Makepeace Thackeray

And the school system is nothing more than daycare. The teachers supervise your kids while you go slave away at the 9-5.

[kamuelakea]

So all you feminist can keep pushing for equality, keep trying to "prove yourself" :rolleyes: All the while "The Man" is benefiting off of your stupidity. You ignore your real worth in society.

Amen to that Poiboy.

I've also said that. I look at 30 and 40 something year old women who are tired and beaten and stressed and I think, "Ho, the feminist movement really was a scheme by men to end up having women make money AND take care of the home." Women were screwed in the deal.

How about women who "schedule" C-sections so they don't have to take off much work or they can at least "plan" their birth around their job committments.

And then there are the ones who actually MEDICATE themselves to stop lactating because breast feeding is just too much of a hassle. How un-natural is that?

And then there are the women who think that the best thing out of the entire feminist movement is that they can abort their babies at will.

I'm not knocking the poor who may have no choice but to go to work. But the vast majority I see doing this are educated middle class women.

Again, women could rule the world. Its always been up to them. The last way they will do it is by trying to BE a man. That will never work. That is why Hillary will lose. Too much of a man.

[1stwahine]

Hui! I'm NOT a Feminist! I am a Strong W O M A N!!! ;)

I love to have my doors open for me. I also open the doors for men. I appreciate the awesome strength and muscles of which men have.:) Their ability to understand cars, computers, mechanical stuffs better den females. Granted some females know about dem too. However, Men just have the knack for them.

Someone posted Equality. That's what it's all about. We are all EQUAL. To enhance each other.

When I became a Widow, it was a lonely time. I thought I found the perfect partner. I was wrong. Finally, I found someone I am absolutely happy with.

Equality. Being with each other not competing with each other.

Men and Women belonging together.

Den again, I'm for Equal rights too.

Men ~ Men Women ~ Women:)

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Love and ALOHA

Auntie Lynn aka Auntie Pupule

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I agree with a majority of your assessments. Many women have abused the rights that have been fought for. But we can take the same attitude with the DoI, the Constitution and so forth.

I have in possession (thanks, Ebay!) a copy of the 1959 US Department of Labor's payscales. They are separated for men and women. I bought this because one of my grandmothers worked for HawaiianTel back in WWII as an operator, and always tells us about how Joe Blow made more than her, busting his ass no more than she, working no longer per day, but because he was a male, he got the better wage, as suggested by the USDOL.

I can go on and on about reproductive rights, Nestle and the formula cabals, science and the $$ made off of female health, and on and on. But the point shouldn't be lost in the fact that rights are, yes, abused, although I have never met a woman who blithely had an abortion or a woman who honestly thought she had the upper hand in the workplace or less kuleana in her marriage because she was female.

But shall we take away rights because of abuse? Would any of you presume to make such a decision?

[acousticlady]

And how about formula milk? Many mothers nowadays choose to feed their babies formula. whatsupwithdat?

Its the system. Back in the days it didn't take 2 parents working a 9-5 to support a family.

So all you feminist can keep pushing for equality, keep trying to "prove yourself" All the while "The Man" is benefiting off of your stupidity. You ignore your real worth in society.

"Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children" -William Makepeace Thackeray

And the school system is nothing more than daycare. The teachers supervise your kids while you go slave away at the 9-5.

Just so you know..... when I had my son, not only did I nurse him for 9 months, I used REAL diapers - you know, the kind you had actually wash :D. I also made sure he never went to daycare. I also never gave him processed baby food. I made it all myself. I was home with him all the time until he was fully potty trained. I waited until he was in 2nd grade before I went back to college. My husband and I worked out our schedules so that our son would always have one parent there. I would be there in the mornings to get him off to school and my husband was there when he got home. We always made sure we were all together for dinner. And just so you know, I only had 1 child - not because I had some big career goals - but because I couldn't get pregnant after that. As far as career women being too manly?! Hey, after 49 yrs, I'm still cute:p

[1stwahine]

Hey, after 49 yrs, I'm still cute:p

HAHAHAHAHA

Right On!!!! I feel moa vibrant and cuter than I was twenty years ago.:D

Auntie Lynn

[Miulang]

Here is a perfect example of how far we have come to having "equality" between the sexes. On the Democratic Presidential debates last night on CNN, they actually had the audacity to have a "fashion commentator" make note of the fact that Hillary's outfit was "perfect for the occasion" because all the men were dressed in somber dark colored suits and she wore this kinda orangey jacket top with black slacks. And then there was a YouTube question for her and Barack Obama about how they would counteract the fact that Hillary was a woman and Barack was black (but was he black enough?) I gotta give Hillary some credit for responding by saying that she could only run as a female because that's what she was, but that she hoped people were voting for President based on the person's qualifications and not whether they were female or black.

Over the last few days, the printed press (the Washington Post in particular), had a style columnist applauding Hillary's "tasteful" highlighting of her cleavage in recent weeks at various speeches she has given around the country, as well as commenting on the pearls she was wearing. Mind you, this was a female columnist!:mad: What portion of the paper's readership do you think she was pandering to? Was she forced by her editors to write that column? Was it a particularly slow news day that she had nothing else to write about? Sometimes women do themselves a disservice too. Of course, men don't have as many clothing options as women do, and perhaps writing about the difference between John Edwards' Armani suit and Mike Gravel's suits from Sears isn't quite as exciting...:rolleyes:

Miulang

[Menehune Man]

I just want to say "Wow!"

I love how everyone is communicating their thoughts on a very tough subject, so properly and pleasantly. Thank you all.

There are men that have been "Dicks" since the beginning of humankind. Abusing their strengths in the community and their home. So essentially abusing their rights as men. I'm ashamed for them.
I just wanted to add in that most of us guys are kinda just big kids.
While being responsible on the one hand... we just want to have fun on the other.

It may be because of this that "many" women have gone overboard on their side of things?!

We are equals, but even more importantly, we're partners on the same team.
Which means both parties need to love and respect each other for it to work out.
Here's a poem I wrote awhile ago...

"Show and Tell"

Since every woman needs to be loved
While all men want to feel respected
Why we continue to hold those both back
Is our own selfishness reflected

To put our mates first and reach our senses
Means that we finally did mature
Knowing that you are loved and respected
Is best when they show their true nature

God has been playing "Show and Tell" with us
Truly wanting us to play along
He's showing His love through all the gifts
While being respectful, though He is strong

Author: Jeff Ruddy aka.-Menehune Man

[GeckoGeek]

But "equality" can mean different things to different people, too.

Yup. Women's lib created "equality" by showing that women could do a man's job. It did nothing about raising the status of traditional women's roles.

I guess society values money that would all be spent before the grave could be filled over raising the next generation. I think the argument can be made that traditional women's roles have always been more important then men's. But men, being what they are, like to beat their chest about how self-important they are. And women have take the lie - hook, line and sinker.

Worse, it almost seems that society expects a woman to be both a mom and career executive - burning the candle at both ends. (And tends to look down on women that only do one.) Hell of a way to be "liberated". What happened to "pro choice"? Oh, I guess that only applies to a different issue.

(I wonder if this belongs in the pet peeve thread?)

[Menehune Man]

Here's another poem in the same vein.

"SEE THE SMILE..."

Courage without love is tyranny
Love without courage can be a door mat
What am I now currently
I've got to know where I'm at

Always striving to find that fine line
To be known as one who shares and cares
While holding on to that, that's mine
And covering all my fares

To live this life with understanding
Giving forgiveness and to live with grace
Coming in for a soft landing
I see the smile upon her face

Author: Jeff Ruddy aka.-Menehune Man

[Karen]

Miulang, et al, perhaps we are close to attaining equality in most ways possible and that at the same time reality is screaming to us that total equality in every way will never be, because it can't be. We can't ever be identical, believe it our creator or mother nature, we WERE born different in more than the obvious ways.

Perhaps it's to be recognized that in the few ways we cannot literally be equal that we are the yin/yang, that perfect combo, balance and dang, we can and often do make one heckuva team.

I have marveled more than once how what I am dang good at, much of it hubby just ain't, and vice versa. This is true of big and little things. He'll see one set of observations in a business deal, family soap opera or anything, and I'll see another entire set of things he failed to see, both sets being grounded in reality. He has talents I am laughable at, and vice versa.

Should we literally fight for such equality that we no longer have separate male/female bathrooms in public? Not for me! but I assure you there are some that see equal as literally...no matter how absurd, eracing all lines of difference, or references to them.

God/nature made the male body, generally speaking, physically stronger than the female. this is no insult to we women and yes, as every body is unique and different, it varies with each of us as to how true this is. I busted my butt with the weights and trainers in the seventies while my male friends that did, and honestly didn't do steriods, they developed more muscle than I did with all of us doing it the natural way. THAT is just reality, and is my bottom line that no, we can't all do the same jobs equally, while sure, there are exceptions to every rule.

[oceanpacific]

EQUAL and EQUALITY are similar, but not the same.

We may never be EQUAL, but we need the opportunity that EQUALITY offers.

[Karen]

Ocean, beautifully said! amen~ *(if that could be worded a bit shorter it'd make one heckuva tshirt and bumper sticker)

[Menehune Man]

How 'bout this way that I've looked at the world...

TRUTH IS...

People fight against growth and change
But holding selves down seems so strange
Must take our thoughts and rearrange
Saddle that horse and ride the range

Men act so proud and stay the same
Hiding behind fear and our shame
While finding someone else to blame
Violence or boredom is our fame

Then women on the other hand
Just want to control all the land
Seeking security that's bland
Forgetting about what God planned

Truth is life's an adventure
Not easy and sometimes unsure
While certain follies do allure
Doing rightly is the cure

Author: Jeff Ruddy aka.-Menehune Man

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Feminism was about equality and not homogeneity. There has been parity afforded because of the movement; FMLA on the fed level comes off the top of my head. Advancing father's rights towards parity for child custody issues in the courts is another.

Unfortunately, and as evidenced on this thread already, it is still the "F" word.

[scrivener]

We talk a lot about this subject in my English classes when we do our poetry unit. I introduce Sharon Olds's poem, "The One Girl at the Boys' Party (http://www.assumption.edu/users/ady/HHGateway/Etexts/oldsparty.html)," and the initial reactions are all about pedophilia (teens are still working out how one can notice someone's body without actually LUSTING for that body), but then we start talking about "the boys' party" and what that means, and why the poet uses all that math language. With a little bit of prompting, the students do a great job of coming up with a list of things in their own lives that are "the boys' party." My school has a boy-girl ratio of about 7 or 8 to 1, so it's always fun to give the girls the first shot at what they think the boys' party could be.

Check out the poem. Pua`i, I think, will especially appreciate it, since she's so into math!

[Pua'i Mana'o]

uh, I need a little bit of prompting myself.

What is it that I am supposed to focus upon? What they are doing at the boy's party? They are at a swimming pool and she is getting ready to take a dive, doing the math in her head, fixating on how deep she will likely delve. And someone most likely bought her an ugly swimsuit.

==========
edited because I just googled the poem. All I can say is, "hah?" She is going to get lose her virginity or get pg at a pool party?

==========
now I read it again (damned details...gets every time!) *she* is the one looking at those boys and thinking feral thoughts after thinking about how deep to dive.

[kamuelakea]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=418_1185239811

The video above is a perfect example.

Big bad male acts up like he's the man.

Then the females with the kids on their backs take control.

Wonder when the next time that male Gorilla gets any, uh...., attention? Something tells me it'll be a while. Maybe after he brings home a few thousand more banana bunches.

I told you guyz. Women rule the world, just look at the monkeys.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

hmm...you think it's easy defending yourself with your kid on your back when your husband comes around and starts sh*t, by pushing you and the kid down?? Self-defense ain't ruling the world...

[Menehune Man]

And this is where the gender clash lies...

Males should never be pushy, bossy or scary towards their mates ever.
Domestic abuse, be it physical, verbal or emotional is a terrible way to live.

Now say there's an issue within the household, where the male and female disagree on how to handle the situation. The male states his case with as much logic as he can muster and she replies with something along the lines of "Don't waste your energy."
Meaning that she's going to do whatever against his wishes right.

This only leaves the male with two choices...
Give up and go along with her suggestion though he feels it won't work.
Or give up big time and leave her.

No matter what she's hurt him by disrespect, even though she may still love him, just wants her way.

He's lost, whatever he chooses to do and may even go to jail if he trys to "force" his way.

imo

[anapuni808]

When I was in high school, my ambition was to join the Navy & become the first female to be stationed on a ship. Well, someone beat me to that goal so I went into accounting instead.

Back in 1970, I was a brand new single parent, trying to make my way and support my child & myself. I had been fortunate to be able to stay home the first couple of years but found myself itching to go back to work & bring home a paycheck so that I didn't have to put up with questions from my husband such as "why do you need 2 tubes of lipstick?". and no, that situation didn't lead to divorce.

When I started on a new job shortly after my divorce (leading financial institution here in Honolulu), I was of course interested in my benefits. I was told that only the male employees had their medical insurance paid for by the company because they were the heads of household. I was shocked because I too was a "head of household". But no, I was told I would have to pay to have my child covered.

That situation didn't last very long. I convinced the company that it was wrong to differentiate between male/female employees when it came to matters of who was a head of household. After a few months, the company changed their policy & I like to think I had something to do with that.

THAT is fighting for EQUALITY. That is what Feminism is about. It's not to make women the same as men - that is impossible and personally, I wouldn't want to be considered the "same as" a man. I have fought hard to gain the same RIGHTS as men as far as equal pay for equal work, reproductive rights, educational equality (think Patsy Mink & Title IX). I speak up when I see inequities towards women.

I'm proud to call myself a Feminist. and I don't think some of you females on here have a clue what it means. and I wish you could understand that women today have the rights they do because of women like myself and so many others that came before all of us. Women who stood up to the system & the old boys network and INSISTED on being seen, being heard and being respected. Women who refused to give up and refused to be beaten down any longer.

Sorry, this was way too long but this is an issue I am very passionate about.

[Karen]

Menhune Man, your post just reminded me that in all fairness to men, we need to remember that women can be abusers, too. They can mentally/emotionally torment a man into leaving, and/or into a crazed fit. It isn't only men that do the abusing, and I wonder if along with the move for equality if more women have become abusive.

[cynsaligia]

THANK YOU, ANAPUNI!!!

last night, as i read the posts on this thread, i got really annoyed at the "feminism of convenience" that women here have displayed. you know--the kind where you proclaim you're the true head of your family, that men have screwed things up for the world and it's time for women to come to the forefront, but then say that they can't ever accept a woman as a boss or a woman as POTUS. such women put women's collective achievements and progress further back than pat robertson and rush limbaugh combined. they're like condi rice is in the bush administration--despite whatever real accomplishments they may have, they're relegated to being mouthpieces for the real power, and accept, like starving dogs, scraps versus what they truly deserve.

every great social movement have their radicals who are distasteful to the majority, and feminism is no exception.

auntie lynn, you ARE a feminist, and you should be unwaveringly proud of it. consider:

Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its
battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions.. for safety on the streets... for child care, for social welfare...for rape crisis
centers, women's refuges, reforms in the law." (If someone says) 'Oh, I'm not a feminist,' (I ask) 'Why? What's your problem?' - Dale Spender, author of For the Record: The Making & Meaning of Feminist Knowledge, 1985

A feminist is a person who answers "yes" to the question, "Are women human?" Feminism is not about whether women are better than, worse than or identical with men. And it's certainly not about trading personal liberty--abortion, divorce, sexual self-expression--for social protection as wives and mothers, as pro-life feminists propose. It's about justice, fairness, and access to the broad range of human experience. It's about women consulting their own well-being and being judged as individuals rather than as members of a class with one personality, one social function, one road to happiness. It's about women having intrinsic value as persons rather than contingent value as a means to an end for others: fetuses, children, the "family," men.
--Katha Pollitt.

Feminism is the single most powerful social movement of our time, one that addresses every aspect of human and social life.- Richard Epstein, author of Bargaining With the State, 1993

i did forget to say one thing: thank you to all the women who came before me. so many of you have paved a long, hard road so that many of my generation cannot even fathom there was a time where we couldn't wear pants (literally and figuratively), couldn't decide anything about our bodies without the permission of our fathers, brothers, or husbands, and were little more than property or vessels for future sons.

a little something from erma bombeck, which some may find ironic, given the kind of prose she was famous for:

We've got a generation now who were born with semiequality. They don't know how it was before, so they think, this isn't too bad. We're working. We have our attache' cases and our three piece suits. I get very disgusted with the younger generation of women. We had a torch to pass, and they are just sitting there. They don't realize it can be taken away. Things are going to have to get worse before they join in fighting the battle.

[1stwahine]

auntie lynn, you ARE a feminist, and you should be unwaveringly proud of it. consider:

I am not a MAN HATER! I am a STRONG WAHINE!!!!:D
(google feminist hate men?)

Auntie Lynn

[Leo Lakio]

I am not a MAN HATER! I am a STRONG WAHINE!!!!:D
Yes, you are VERY strong - the actions of your life continue to prove that. But you are misled if you equate "feminism" with "man hating."
That is what Feminism is about. It's not to make women the same as men - that is impossible and personally, I wouldn't want to be considered the "same as" a man. I have fought hard to gain the same RIGHTS as men as far as equal pay for equal work, reproductive rights, educational equality (think Patsy Mink & Title IX). I speak up when I see inequities towards women.Amen, Fran. Perfectly summed up (especially the part highlighted.) Many rights have been won - but many battles remain, often due to misunderstanding of purpose. I recall having a discussion on abortion when my daughter was a teenager, and helping her to understand that being pro-choice was not the same as being pro-abortion.
I'm proud to call myself a Feminist.As am I.

[1stwahine]

Yes, you are VERY strong - the actions of your life continue to prove that. But you are misled if you equate "feminism" with "man hating."

K-den. In dat case...I am Feminist!!;)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Auntie Lynn

[Leo Lakio]

K-den. In dat case...I am Feminist!!;)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Auntie LynnGood morning, Lynn!

The things you've described when sharing with us about your life (past and present) show repeatedly that you will fight to make things right, for yourself, for your `ohana, for others you see as being oppressed. Some of your behaviors could be described as "feminist," some as "Christian," some by a number of other labels.

You don't have to wear the labels others create, if you don't want to. But it doesn't hurt to get clearer definitions of said labels before deciding whether to use them or not, for yourself or others. Maybe you and Fran should schedule a lunch-time discussion of your own understandings of what feminism is? Good excuse as any to get together for ono grindz!

[Menehune Man]

Let's see... I'm a man, who loves women (a few very particularly- Mom,Wife,Daughter)
and use "fairness" as my constant guide, I'm a feminist too!

[acousticlady]

Gee, I hope I have not come across as a "man hater" That is the last thing I consider myself. I have been happily married for 30 yrs and that has happened because we have great respect for one another. I grew up in a house full of brothers and male cousins. I have great respect for them. It was because of them and my father that throughout my life it never occured to me that I was anything BUT equal. Even in the working world, I have great respect for the men I work with on a daily basis. And I have every confidence that they feel they same about me. I also hope I have not come across as being a "manly" woman. I LOVE being a woman. I love being feminine (sp?). I love getting dressed up and wearing make-up - ocassionally (don't know if I could do that every day-but once in a while).

I am often asked "how I did it" and I usually respond with "I didn't think about it, I just did it". It never occured to me that I was breaking barriers or glass ceilings. I got into the field(s) I did because of my passion for them. Just as with anything I do in life - marriage motherhood,career - it was purely PASSION!

[sinjin]

Let's see... I'm a man, who loves women (a few very particularly- Mom,Wife,Daughter)
and use "fairness" as my constant guide, I'm a feminist too!I too support feminist causes but not at the expense of femininity. Too often women have adopted male behavioral attributes to "fit in" with their male counterparts in the working world. A shame IMO. I have been told that I feel threatened by "strong" women but that's not it. I just find the mimicing of what I already dislike in men to be especially unbecoming for a woman.

Oh and on the women doing traditionally male jobs like firefighter or soldier where strength is certainly an asset- How come you see 125lb female firefighters but never a 125lb male firefighter? I already know the answer.

[Karen]

No, no one on this thread has even come close to sounding like they are from the man-hater group, which of course does exist, but not here! I've read passion and energy on this thread, no hate.

A very few in our society, a few women that have high-profile have tainted the label "feminist" for the many that are dang good ones and excellent ladies, citizens, etc. Y'all are cleaning it up evidenced by your posts here. huggz~

Editing these in here...these FEW, radical ones are the ones that have tarnished a true and honorable movement, and dirtied the word "feminist." They have harmed the true cause....obviously....quotes are next....


"In order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them." (Dr. Mary Jo Bane, feminist and assistant professor of education at Wellesley College and associate director of the school's Center for Research on Woman).

"Being a housewife is an illegitimate profession... The choice to serve and be protected and plan towards being a family-maker is a choice that shouldn't be. The heart of radical feminism is to change that." (Vivian Gornick, feminist author, University of Illinois, "The Daily Illini," April 25, 1981.

Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." (radical feminist leader Sheila Cronan).

The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist." (National NOW Times, Jan.1988).

"No woman should be authorized to stay at home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one." Simone de Beauvoir, author of _The Second Sex_, the book that is credited with launching the mainstream of the modern feminist movement --- Article 912510 of soc.men: Date: 7 Mar 2002 05:42:45 -0800

"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam and blow up things up. They are not Rambo," said Jodie Foster in The New York Times Magazine

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86)

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

[anapuni808]

You don't have to wear the labels others create, if you don't want to. But it doesn't hurt to get clearer definitions of said labels before deciding whether to use them or not, for yourself or others. Maybe you and Fran should schedule a lunch-time discussion of your own understandings of what feminism is? Good excuse as any to get together for ono grindz!

Leo, while I appreciate your thoughts and wisdom, I am truly puzzled: where in what I wrote was the inference that anyone posting on here was a "man hater"? Did I use that phrase in my posting? I don't need to explain or discuss or justify my life & beliefs with anyone. Anyone is free to disagree with me at any time. I really don't give a rip.

and yes, I am seriously pissed off right now.

[1stwahine]

Leo, while I appreciate your thoughts and wisdom, I am truly puzzled: where in what I wrote was the inference that anyone posting on here was a "man hater"? Did I use that phrase in my posting? I don't need to explain or discuss or justify my life & beliefs with anyone. Anyone is free to disagree with me at any time. I really don't give a rip.

and yes, I am seriously pissed off right now.

shyly comes into the room...waves flag!!! Hello!:) I'm guilty. I wrote dee Bad Word.

I didn't mean any OFFENSE.:(

I humbly APOLOGIZE!:o

Lynn

[sinjin]

And "Homosexual Mafia" slips by? Oh Bruddah.

[anapuni808]

And "Homosexual Mafia" slips by? Oh Bruddah.

When you are quoting something, it would help if you included the source so that there is no confusion.

[sinjin]

When you are quoting something, it would help if you included the source so that there is no confusion.You're absolutely right. Forgive me.

And by the way, if the Homosexual mafia is always arguing that sexual preference DOESN'T matter, then why should it matter what a President's sexual preference may be. Always the hypocritical and intolerant left.

[Leo Lakio]

where in what I wrote was the inference that anyone posting on here was a "man hater"? Did I use that phrase in my posting?
shyly comes into the room...waves flag!!! Hello!:) I'm guilty. I wrote dee Bad Word.
I didn't mean any OFFENSE.:(
I humbly APOLOGIZE!:o
Lynn
Hope that clears it up, Fran. I told Lynn that "feminism" had nothing to do with "man hating." She used the phrase, not you.

[Palolo Joe]

I don't need to explain or discuss or justify my life & beliefs with anyone. Anyone is free to disagree with me at any time. I really don't give a rip.

and yes, I am seriously pissed off right now.

You don't need to explain, or justify... anyone is free to disagree... you don't give a rip.

But you're seriously pissed off.

Awwww... pua ting. Get over it.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Gee, I hope I have not come across as a "man hater" That is the last thing I consider myself. I have been happily married for 30 yrs and that has happened because we have great respect for one another. I grew up in a house full of brothers and male cousins. I have great respect for them. It was because of them and my father that throughout my life it never occured to me that I was anything BUT equal. Even in the working world, I have great respect for the men I work with on a daily basis. And I have every confidence that they feel they same about me. I also hope I have not come across as being a "manly" woman. I LOVE being a woman. I love being feminine (sp?). I love getting dressed up and wearing make-up - ocassionally (don't know if I could do that every day-but once in a while).

I am often asked "how I did it" and I usually respond with "I didn't think about it, I just did it". It never occured to me that I was breaking barriers or glass ceilings. I got into the field(s) I did because of my passion for them. Just as with anything I do in life - marriage motherhood,career - it was purely PASSION!


This is a great reminder of my first gripe re: the "F Word" having lost so much power that one has to qualify that one isn't anti-male in order to be pro-equality.

I too support feminist causes but not at the expense of femininity. Too often women have adopted male behavioral attributes to "fit in" with their male counterparts in the working world. A shame IMO. I have been told that I feel threatened by "strong" women but that's not it. I just find the mimicing of what I already dislike in men to be especially unbecoming for a woman.

Oh and on the women doing traditionally male jobs like firefighter or soldier where strength is certainly an asset- How come you see 125lb female firefighters but never a 125lb male firefighter? I already know the answer.

Sinjin, I regard you among the open-minded among the HTers. What do you mean about our femininity?

As for non-trad safety officer jobs for women, she must pass the physical muster to get hired; I know female firefighters, police officers and jail guards from my isle. I am familiar with them because they are my husband's coworkers as well as women in my family and mothers of my kids' classmates/team mates. Drag the sandbag, do the pushups, run the mile, do the bike, rappel down the cliffside, learn to use the self-defense techniques in training. The earn their spots on the force. Further, they deal with jealous/suspicious wives, co-workers a bit confused about social boundaries and climbing the ladder in the workplace. Why do they do it? Because something about the job makes them want to serve. They aren't into imitating men or taking their jobs. They bring their femininity to the job; help mellow the testosterone, comfort the flipping out child or kupuna, bring calm to the inmates acting out. They are an asset to the force.

They deserve respect because they bust ass to earn it.

No, no one on this thread has even come close to sounding like they are from the man-hater group, which of course does exist, but not here! I've read passion and energy on this thread, no hate.

A very few in our society, a few women that have high-profile have tainted the label "feminist" for the many that are dang good ones and excellent ladies, citizens, etc. Y'all are cleaning it up evidenced by your posts here. huggz~

Editing these in here...these FEW, radical ones are the ones that have tarnished a true and honorable movement, and dirtied the word "feminist." They have harmed the true cause....obviously....quotes are next....

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

Andrea Dworkin never said this (http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinno.htm).

Feminism is almost as broad a term as Christianity. I don't throw out the love for God and respect for His love for us because some evil person kills while claiming His holy name. Yep, some people get in the way of the point™. But the point is greater: feminism is a noble movement that claims roots in both the French and American Revolutions. In the classic sense, it was about pro-equality. To afford us the luxury of choosing whether or not we can vote for a female president, because 1)we got the right to vote and 2)a chick is allowed to run for office.

From one of my favorite women: Susan B. Anthony, "Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputation or social standards, can never bring about reform." It is upon their backs, and yes, even the noise of the fringe that allows for our generation the latitude to teach our daughters the limits to which they may aspire. May we never, ever, ever throw that baby out with the bath water.

respectfully, PM

[Karen]

I have come to pretty much trust snopes, so thanks for dispelling one of the looney-sounding sources.

What is a shame is that they can't all be found to be untrue quotes. There are more than the females I quoted, and they are all the ones that rightly encouraged Rush to coin the old term he did back in the eighties,

"feminazis."

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I have come to pretty much trust snopes, so thanks for dispelling one of the looney-sounding sources.

What is a shame is that they can't all be found to be untrue quotes. There are more than the females I quoted, and they are all the ones that rightly encouraged Rush to coin the old term he did back in the eighties,

"feminazis."

So you choose to toss out that baby, eh?

[Karen]

Toss out what baby. Wouldn't you the the one more likely to toss the baby cuz one quote was found to be false?

I bet you really are making a good point, but it's not as obvious as you think it should be. come again, and thanks~

Wow, it's a wonder Dworkin didn't...say that! Brainyquote.com has some quotes that are reportedly hers...

"Childbearing is glorified in part because women die from it."

" Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership."

" No woman needs intercourse; few women escape it."

" Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free."

"The argument between wives and whores is an old one; each one thinking that whatever she is, at least she is not the other."

Pretty radical stuff~

[Pua'i Mana'o]

one of my last statements on that big quote thread was "It is upon their backs, and yes, even the noise of the fringe that allows for our generation the latitude to teach our daughters the limits to which they may aspire. May we never, ever, ever throw that baby out with the bath water."

As for all of your statements, I do not follow those writers, but I did Andrea Dworkin's work and had read before about the misquote (http://radgeek.com/gt/2006/02/19/misquotation_in). I learned about Dworkin when I took an avid interest in the anti-pornography movement. She was very outspoken on the subject, which was dear to my heart due to that I saw both of my college roommates get sucked into that world. Naive young women, good backgrounds, balancing the lure of mean money against their morals. The money won out. Neither woman is alive today.

[Karen]

I apologize to the moderators for the double posting. I didn't realize just how long we can edit things into our posts, so I put those quotes in a new one.

I am glad she was against porn, but.....very radical quotes are attributed to her, and I just picked a few.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Wow, it's a wonder Dworkin didn't...say that! Brainyquote.com has some quotes that are reportedly hers...

Pretty radical stuff~

if you click on the link above, it addresses them at length.

[Karen]

I don't see any link above, in your post, but I do seriously doubt that "addressing" this radicalism could somehow make it better than it is. However, I'm open minded and sure, I'll read what else she had to say, if it's her saying it, and not someone talking ABOUT her and trying to make her radicalism seem okay.

Oh! your link in a previous post, betcha! LOL at myself...will click and see if it's her speaking. thanks

[Pua'i Mana'o]

http://radgeek.com/gt/2006/02/19/misquotation_in

"Quotations to that effect have been incorrectly attributed to both Dworkin or MacKinnon, who never said those words and denied that they believed it when asked. Interpretations of their extensive and nuanced work on intercourse, rape, patriarchy, consent, coercion, men, women, and sexual ethics (which you can find elaborated in detail in, among other places, Dworkin’s book Intercourse and Chapter 9 of MacKinnon’s Toward a Feminist Theory of the State) that claim to find the view written between the lines have repeatedly been made on the basis of selective quotation, wilful misreading, and downright gossip. These facts have been repeatedly pointed out, not least by the authors themselves, but also by a lot of other people, over and over again. And yet the charade goes on."

read the whole page.

=====
edited to add: at one time I owned a copy of AD's book Intercourse (not that I know where that copy went). She spoke radically yes. Some stuff was too mindblowing for me to wrap around. But after reading it, I didn't think she was angry at men. She was outraged at the exploitation of women and children.

I wasn't raised around people who had that conversation. But even so, it wasn't something that I didn't deserve to hear. It wasn't above me. It was genuine and worth learning about. It gave me some tools and the rest? As with anything, one should take the good where it exists, and disregard the rest. AD does not walk in my shoes and I do not need to defend her. That said, it is worthy to note that when it comes to anti-feminist rhetoric, Dworkin's name is always dropped.

[Karen]

This does not account for all of the quotes that brainyquote.com has of hers. It simply addresses the truth that any public figure can be, and often is, misquoted, from the most radical to the most conservative.

Sadly, she's only one of many feminists with a platform, and many of which are radical. They are the ones that, some of which I quoted earlier and they do great harm to true feminism, and they are the reason Rush Limbaugh was right-on when he coined "feminazis." They do exist and they are a big problem, just like hypocrite chritians have greatly damaged the real thing.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

This does not account for all of the quotes that brainyquote.com has of hers. It simply addresses the truth that any public figure can be, and often is, misquoted, from the most radical to the most conservative.

Sadly, she's only one of many feminists with a platform, and many of which are radical. They are the ones that, some of which I quoted earlier and they do great harm to true feminism, and they are the reason Rush Limbaugh was right-on when he coined "feminazis." They do exist and they are a big problem, just like hypocrite chritians have greatly damaged the real thing.

Ok.

So where are we?

Do we agree that feminism is a noble movement with great impact upon humanity, or is it the bastion of feminazis to be disregarded as a blight upon humanity?

Boiled down, is feminism a good thing or a bad thing?

[Karen]

Hmm....it is both. We have both. Seems the fish always rots from the head down, so the old cliche went that I heard as I grew up.

Churches at the head can be horribly corrupt, yet the individual members be the most precious souls on earth.

Govts. can be horribly corrupt yet the individual, tax paying citizens be wonderful people and citizens of the earth.

Seems some of the elite in the feminist movement are radical and truly feminazis while millions of wonderful gals like those of us here at HT are true ladies and as strong as we should be, and have a right to be.

I don't see how we can deny both types of feminists exist, and both wear the same label.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

nice dodge, there. Would you have the same struggle if I posed the question, "is Christianity a good thing or a bad thing?" Methinks not.

Is feminism a good thing or a bad thing?

Are the rights worth it? The freedoms worth it? Family Medical Leave Act that allows for fathers and mothers leave from work while protecting their jobs after the birth/adoption of their child? Childcare tax credits (this includes after school care up until 13) and Dependent Care credits (for taking care of your elderly parents with your out-of-pocket expenses)?

Or did it just breed some more lesbians?

[Karen]

There is no dodge, but truth and wisdom in what I said. You just don't like it, apparently.

Sorry, to continue....no, I would speak the same. Christianity has a good and a bad side. If you ask one person if it is good and they've been hammered by hypocrites, then "christianity" is bad, to them. If you ask someone that has been neighbors with a true christian, yada yada, then it is a good thing, to them, but what about the leaders of the movement? what about their lobbying efforts? Is christianity, today.......good or bad? tell ya what, if and when you can find the REAL thing, then it's good. I see a ton of fake christianity, and know a few that seem to be real, the individuals.

Are the rights worth it? I've spoken up, lobbied and fought all of my life for only what was "worth it." We have good feminists on HT here, did I not say? that doesn't give you a hint how I feel about feminism? or you just wanted me to say more, in hoping I'd say something you could find fault with?

[acousticlady]

I am going to avoid the whole quote discussion. But I do want to touch on the use of the word "feminism" It is true that the word has taken on a very negative feel to it. I can remember as a little girl, my Grandma telling me of the feminist struggle her mother fought for (yes, alongside Susan B. Anthony). In those days, they were proud to call themselves feminists. As time went on, a new term and ideal of equality took over - communism. Both my grandparents were proud, card-carrying members in the 20's. That term too, took on a very ugly connotation. The ideals that movement was built on was lost forever in the cold war. The term feminist made a resurgence in the 60's, but had a very different feel to it, even then.

Grandma's advice? Never mind what you call it, it is the ideals that you must live by. If you live it and make that example to your children, they too will live by those ideals. And in this way, the ideals of both feminism and comunism will live on forever. I am not sure if those were her exact words, but the idea is there.

[Menehune Man]

Ok.

So where are we?

Do we agree that feminism is a noble movement with great impact upon humanity, or is it the bastion of feminazis to be disregarded as a blight upon humanity?

Boiled down, is feminism a good thing or a bad thing?

I believe that Feminism was/is a necessary movement for the proper growth of human intellect. That said...

I also believe the "Pendulum" has swung past equality in many ways, leaving men at a loss. There are laws, rules and other anti-male regulations now in place that restrict their rights. To their children, their homes, etc.

[cynsaligia]

I believe that Feminism was/is a necessary movement for the proper growth of human intellect. That said...

I also believe the "Pendulum" has swung past equality in many ways, leaving men at a loss. There are laws, rules and other anti-male regulations now in place that restrict their rights. To their children, their homes, etc.

sucks to be on the receiving end, don't it? :rolleyes:

if you (you individually, and also you as part of your gender) felt the way you do now--which is a situation men have "suffered" for 50 years, at most--imagine being at a "loss" about your rights to children, property, your body, etc. for the next two thousand years. is it not reasonable that maybe some of you would end up having rather "radical" theories and points of view about it?

this is my (and anapuni's and pua`i mana`o's) point. men are dealing with a "pendulum swing" that has lasted, really, only since the baby boomers came into existence. and look how vociferously you guys protest the fact that SOMETIMES women are given preferential treatment over men regarding children, property, money, the assumption of whether one was raped or not. you suffered this for the lifetime of ONLY one generation. that's it.

whereas we women have had to take this bullshit for eons, ever since eve offered the apple to adam, and he took it of his own free will but (typical thing with a penis between his legs) blamed it completely on eve. we've been mere chattel, vessels for sons for centuries farther back than i count, and you guys want to cry to us about how we're asking for too much or aren't feminine enough or are as detestful as the nazis?

give me an effing break. it's just like men to cry about something that is a fraction as bad as what women have to bear.

now, understand, i'm not "man-hating." nor am i ignoring the inherent differences that GENERALLY exist betwixt men and women. i love me the penis as much as any other heterosexual woman can and i have no intention or desire to love a nani the way i love me the penis (okay, that line was funny to me, but if it was just plain old obnoxious to you, sorry. just understand that even as i rant, i'm laughing a lil), my love for men is best illustrated by my adoring posts about eric, and my wistfulness for my father who was never there for me as a kid.

my beef is with men who deny this huge iniquity has existed and still exists, and that it exists still much more than it has been remedied. if everything were suddenly now truly equal amongst men and women, why are we criticizing what hill wears to the debates? why is it that a woman who sleeps with more than five men in her lifetime was slutty, but a man who sleeps with 20 women in his lifetime was just "sowing his oats?" if things were truly equal, why is there even ONE soldier who thinks it's okay to say he's glad he never fought next to a woman? and not only does he say this, he says this to his wife! and then this same wife eats this point of view whole, like it's manna from the sky. oh, SPIT! wifey doesn't know that hubby is insulting her to her face. DUH--newsflash--HE THINKS YOU, AND ALL OF YOUR GENDER, ARE INFERIOR TO HIM. and guess what? YOU BELIEVE IT, TOO!

menehune man, you and other men like you have been great at posting your points of view of women, but you must remember--until women have TRUE equality (which i won't define here bcs it's been covered extensively in earlier posts by anapuni and PM), any advances women make are at the INDULGENCE of men, no matter how hard we women have FOUGHT for them. all you guys gotta do, when we protest and fight, and say things like "to be a true feminist we have to be lesbian" or "being a housewife shouldn't be allowed" to get your attention--all you guys gotta do is give us the thumbs up or thumbs down. WE still are at YOUR indulgence. there is no true equality, no way, no how. you get so much of the stuff you get just bcs you have a stalk and two balls between your legs. we get so much of the stuff we get now only bcs those before us fought, tooth and nail, for it.

(note: this doens't mean i don't have sympathy for men who have been caught on the wrongful end of child support/divorce/child custody/assault battles. ask my asstard ex what i did re his son. but still-for every case like that against men, there are generations back of cases like that for women.)

[Menehune Man]

It was nice while it lasted... the pleasantries that is.

The sins of the parents will be played out on the generations to come.

What my "Gender" did in the past is being worked out now, which is "working over" the present generation.

Let's play nicely together now, please. :o

[Karen]

ONE soldier who thinks it's okay to say he's glad he never fought next to a woman? and not only does he say this, he says this to his wife! and then this same wife eats this point of view whole, like it's manna from the sky. oh, SPIT! wifey doesn't know that hubby is insulting her to her face. DUH--newsflash--HE THINKS YOU, AND ALL OF YOUR GENDER, ARE INFERIOR TO HIM. and guess what? YOU BELIEVE IT, TOO!"

I sit here almost shaking my head, for there is none so blind as those that will not see.

Most women would not have lasted or made it, had they suffered the fields and horror of 'Nam. It was not Iraq, I assure you, and that's no picnic.

I have no problem admitting that there are things men can do that women generally fail at. I know I wasn't insulted when my hubby said what he did about 'Nam. I am sorry for you that you feel way. What hubby did was speak truth. Most of the gals he had served near in the navy would NEVER have cut the muster as a marine with him in 'Nam.

Period, fact, reality.....

[kamuelakea]

The feminist movement isn't a man versus woman fight.

Its a traditional FEMALE suicide march. Or at least the attempt to rally the march.

I have a strong mother, strong grandmothers and have heard of strong Great-Grandmothers. They all seemed to be perfectly happy with being traditional women. In fact, they seemed to think they got the good end of the deal.

Of course, they married good men. Maybe that's the difference.

[Peshkwe]

ONE soldier who thinks it's okay to say he's glad he never fought next to a woman? and not only does he say this, he says this to his wife! and then this same wife eats this point of view whole, like it's manna from the sky. oh, SPIT! wifey doesn't know that hubby is insulting her to her face. DUH--newsflash--HE THINKS YOU, AND ALL OF YOUR GENDER, ARE INFERIOR TO HIM. and guess what? YOU BELIEVE IT, TOO!"

I sit here almost shaking my head, for there is none so blind as those that will not see.

Most women would not have lasted or made it, had they suffered the fields and horror of 'Nam. It was not Iraq, I assure you, and that's no picnic.

I have no problem admitting that there are things men can do that women generally fail at. I know I wasn't insulted when my hubby said what he did about 'Nam. I am sorry for you that you feel way. What hubby did was speak truth. Most of the gals he had served near in the navy would NEVER have cut the muster as a marine with him in 'Nam.

Period, fact, reality.....

Say that to an in country field nurse.

[kamuelakea]

BTW, somebody used the term "single mother".

That phrase is used by feminist types and others to gain pity or praise.

More truthful terminology is to say; 1) divorced 2) widowed or 3) unmarried mother.

But the 99% who use the term "single mother" are actually #3 or unmarried. They don't like to be honest in that way because that description holds with it certain irresponsibity.

There is no excuse for a woman to have an unwanted pregancy in todays world, unless she was impregnated via criminal rape. I feel sorry for those. The rest were irresponsible.

[Peshkwe]

BTW, somebody used the term "single mother".

That phrase is used by feminist types and others to gain pity or praise.

More truthful terminology is to say; 1) divorced 2) widowed or 3) unmarried mother.

But the 99% who use the term "single mother" are actually #3 or unmarried. They don't like to be honest in that way because that description holds with it certain irresponsibity.

There is no excuse for a woman to have an unwanted pregancy in todays world, unless she was impregnated via criminal rape. I feel sorry for those. The rest were irresponsible.

Not always KK

Rubbers break, antibiotics kill the pill, so accidents can happen.

[Karen]

Peshkwe, I will gladly say it to field nurses since the men I know that served in 'Nam did NOT see "field nurses" in the front lines or jungles of 'Nam. Most women wouldn't have lasted in many of the situations our men put up with there. (yes, where our female nurses were sometimes were hit by wild fire, etc....didn't say they had a picnic, while what I did just say is true)

Just to prove my point...to myself....grinning as I typed that....I just googled "images" and typed in "fire dept." so I could see a bunch of group pics of fire depts. all over this great nation. Yep....FEMALES seem to be missing from these group pics. why?? if women can do ANYTHING men can do, and as well, and there are women that like to be cops, why aren't there more women firefighters??? Nobody's saying they can be one, so what's the deal?

I'll tell ya...most women FAIL the physical test to become fire fighters. No, this is not an insult to say this and it is true. Men, generally speaking are stronger than women. nature did this, it isn't an insult, nor would it be an insult if some male fire fighter said that he was glad that he didn't serve in the dept with women.
It would not be an insult because women fail to become firefighters, so they clearly don't make good ones, and no man should want to serve with one that wouldn't be able to "have his back" in all types of situations, so to speak.

[CranBeree]

it is sad to see women tear each other down instead of building each other up.

[Peshkwe]

Peshkwe, I will gladly say it to field nurses since the men I know that served in 'Nam did NOT see "field nurses" in the front lines or jungles of 'Nam. Most women wouldn't have lasted in many of the situations our men put up with there. (yes, where our female nurses were sometimes were hit by wild fire, etc....didn't say they had a picnic, while what I did just say is true)

Just to prove my point...to myself....grinning as I typed that....I just googled "images" and typed in "fire dept." so I could see a bunch of group pics of fire depts. all over this great nation. Yep....FEMALES seem to be missing from these group pics. why?? if women can do ANYTHING men can do, and as well, and there are women that like to be cops, why aren't there more women firefighters??? Nobody's saying they can be one, so what's the deal?

I'll tell ya...most women FAIL the physical test to become fire fighters. No, this is not an insult to say this and it is true. Men, generally speaking are stronger than women. nature did this, it isn't an insult, nor would it be an insult if some male fire fighter said that he was glad that he didn't serve in the dept with women.
It would not be an insult because women fail to become firefighters, so they clearly don't make good ones, and no man should want to serve with one that wouldn't be able to "have his back" in all types of situations, so to speak.


Ummm...yeeaah:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1999/11/11/women/index.html?CP=SAL&DN=110

http://grunt.space.swri.edu/womenkil.htm

And back in history:

http://www.lothene.org/others/women.html

[kamuelakea]

Not always KK

Rubbers break, antibiotics kill the pill, so accidents can happen.

U R correct. But rare. Much more common that it is sheer irresponsibility.

[Peshkwe]

U R correct. But rare. Much more common that it is sheer irresponsibility.

My opinion is that it's a lack of understanding and knowledge of the whole process. You'd be amazed if you got a group of teens together and got em to talking. Find out how many boys poke pins in the rubbers so they can get their girl pregnant and how many believe that pulling out will be effective birth control.

[Karen]

Your links arent' news to me or any of the men that served, that I know. No one said women didn't serve and/or die. what they did say remains true. Women didn't frequent the front lines nor were they seen in the jungles by most men. Most women would not have lasted in many of the situations our men suffered, in 'Nam.

Cran, sorry I forget the exact spelling of your nic....debate isn't "tearing down" or whatever your words were. Debate is healthy unless it turns to ad hominem. I haven't seen this one get that low and lame. At an online forum I moderated years ago we had a rule and it was to "attack the message, but not the messenger." That's all I've seen here, personally.

[anapuni808]

You don't need to explain, or justify... anyone is free to disagree... you don't give a rip.

But you're seriously pissed off.

Awwww... pua ting. Get over it.

PJ - I'm already over it. and I still don't give a rip :p

[CranBeree]

Your links arent' news to me or any of the men that served, that I know. No one said women didn't serve and/or die. what they did say remains true. Women didn't frequent the front lines nor were they seen in the jungles by most men. Most women would not have lasted in many of the situations our men suffered, in 'Nam.

Cran, sorry I forget the exact spelling of your nic....debate isn't "tearing down" or whatever your words were. Debate is healthy unless it turns to ad hominem. I haven't seen this one get that low and lame. At an online forum I moderated years ago we had a rule and it was to "attack the message, but not the messenger." That's all I've seen here, personally.


all i see (to me anyway) is how you refuse to recognize women in their own right. that is sad in itself. i have more to add but ..never mind, you are going to have your own mind set as well as i.

[anapuni808]

Most women would not have lasted or made it, had they suffered the fields and horror of 'Nam. It was not Iraq, I assure you, and that's no picnic.

I have no problem admitting that there are things men can do that women generally fail at. I know I wasn't insulted when my hubby said what he did about 'Nam. I am sorry for you that you feel way. What hubby did was speak truth. Most of the gals he had served near in the navy would NEVER have cut the muster as a marine with him in 'Nam.

Tell this to a field nurse during a battle. tell this to our own Denby Fawcett who was out there in the middle of rice paddies, alongside the troops, in battles, with a microphone & camera instead of a rifle. They might have to disagree with your hubby.

[Karen]

Cranberee, it is sad that you can't see what I recognize, and I have posted some of it quite clearly, but you are right, your mind is set and so is mine.

Anapuni, were there a couple that actually suffered the fields, the jungles and the front lines? I suppose, if true, that there's an exception to every rule, right? Yep...however, I know the relatives, hubby, friends and his friends that were in 'Nam don't need your nor my agreement with the history that they lived, and that it was our country's policy to not have women on the front lines. In fact, the few that possibly were could have been there against policy. the many men I have heard reports from had no reason to lie, and I certainly know my hubby and his command did not serve with women in 'Nam. It was all male marines. anyone can "disagree" all they want, he was there, he lived it, as did others I am close to.

Thanks for continuing dialogue. We prove, unlike other websites that debate can happen without lowering ourselves to obnoxious levels.

[Peshkwe]

Your links arent' news to me or any of the men that served, that I know. No one said women didn't serve and/or die. what they did say remains true. Women didn't frequent the front lines nor were they seen in the jungles by most men. Most women would not have lasted in many of the situations our men suffered, in 'Nam.

Cran, sorry I forget the exact spelling of your nic....debate isn't "tearing down" or whatever your words were. Debate is healthy unless it turns to ad hominem. I haven't seen this one get that low and lame. At an online forum I moderated years ago we had a rule and it was to "attack the message, but not the messenger." That's all I've seen here, personally.

And there is the key phrase..."the men that served, that I know."

The women that I knew in the military would have gone and done just like the guys

IF they were allowed to, but at that time a female wasn't.

Maybe it's the modern/western Americanized thinking but there have always been plenty of females doing battle right next to the guys in other countries, and they carried their own weight.

Ndn women could always throw down.

[CranBeree]

Cranberee, it is sad that you can't see what I recognize, and I have posted some of it quite clearly, but you are right, your mind is set and so is mine.

Anapuni, were there a couple that actually suffered the fields, the jungles and the fr