Price of Milk

[Karen]

Okay, who let the cows out?! :p

I don't get it...not a month ago, I am pretty dang sure I paid a bit under 4.50 for a half gallon of my favorite milk, and that is Viva One-percent, Acidopholus milk. That was when buying it in Foodland. Today my daughter grabbed me a half gallon of it and she said she paid 5.29! Whoa....

now my sometimes feeble mind :D is thinking that there's never been that much of a difference in the price of it between those two stores. I am left wondering what the rest of you are paying for milk and especially if any of you buy the very same one I do.

[TuNnL]

Hmmmm... I just paid $3.50 for a half gallon of Lucerne Fat-free milk at Safeway. But then again, it’s probably cheaper because it’s mainland milk. It does seem that the price of milk is going up overall, and that should be expected now that the last local dairy company is about to shut its doors. ;)

[blueyecicle]

In Oregon we paid 2.50 a gallon and here in Virginia it was a shocker to find it is all 5.00 or 6.00 a gallon!! WTH????:confused:
2% 4.99 at WalMart!

[Karen]

Dangme! I failed to note the store daughter shopped today. It was Mililani's Star Market that she had to pay over five for the half gallon of said milk that I luv. sorry~

[tutusue]

KHNL covered this subject (http://www.khnl.com/Global/story.asp?S=6835231) a few days ago...

[Karen]

Thanks, Sue! Ten dollars a gallon for milk's a surprise for me even though I had caught KGMB's story on it a few weeks ago. It's gone up on base but not but fifty? or so cents a half gallon, and even that may be an exaggeration, I can't recall.

[CranBeree]

Hmmmm... I just paid $3.50 for a half gallon of Lucerne Fat-free milk at Safeway. But then again, it’s probably cheaper because it’s mainland milk. It does seem that the price of milk is going up overall, and that should be expected now that the last local dairy company is about to shut its doors. ;)



psssttt..its mostly all mainland milk! unless you see the label island fresh on it then its from here. otherwise its brought in.

best yet, western family, times etc are all what is called private label.. in reality it is meadow gold packaging their milk.. all MG does is change the box!

[TuNnL]

unless you see the label island fresh on it then its from here ... in reality it is meadow gold packaging their milk.. all MG does is change the box!Not for long. As I said previously, the last local dairy will be closing its doors (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Jun/01/ln/FP706010370.html) this summer (this was my main point). This means Meadow Gold will be importing all their milk from the mainland.

So much for “Island Fresh.” :rolleyes:

[sophielynette]

I rarely drink milk myself, but I just checked the paper and it lists a gallon jug of Kroger brand at $1.93 :rolleyes:

[Palama Kid]

I guzzle half gallons of Lactaid fat-free milk. Cost at Trader Joe's: $3.79

[Random]

Not for long. As I said previously, the last local dairy will be closing its doors (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Jun/01/ln/FP706010370.html) this summer (this was my main point). This means Meadow Gold will be importing all their milk from the mainland.

So much for “Island Fresh.” :rolleyes:
So, can anyone please explain why only 25% of the milk in the supermarket are from local dairy farms?

And how does corn and ethanol factor into the price hike of milk?

[tutusue]

[...]And how does corn and ethanol factor into the price hike of milk?
From the link above:
"The reason for the steep increase involves another pricey commodity, corn.
Farmers and the makers of ethanol are pushing up the price of corn."

[Miulang]

So, can anyone please explain why only 25% of the milk in the supermarket are from local dairy farms?

And how does corn and ethanol factor into the price hike of milk?
Yes, it has something to do with more corn being used for ethanol production, but it's also because of higher fuel prices to transport the milk, and more expensive grain to feed the dairy cattle, the increased demand for milk products from American and foreign consumers (much of our milk goes into cheese products), and the weird way the government stacks the deck by having a milk price "floor" that is adjusted monthly (as noted in this article (http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1014046/supermarket_squeeze/index.html)).

Another factor in the rise of dairy prices is the increase in demand for raw dairy products in foreign markets, particularly China.

"It all breaks down to supply and demand -- and we haven't had enough to meet the demand," said Michael Marsh, CEO of Western United Dairymen. "We've become the dominant player in world markets, and consumers are feeling that.

"What will continue to keep milk prices at a relatively high level for the next 12 to 18 months will be the fuel and energy situation and the demand in the U.S. for corn-based ethanol," he added.

Dairy farmers found themselves in "the eye of a perfect storm" for prices in the spring but the problem actually began last year, Marsh said.

Feed and fuel surged to record highs in 2006 and a major heat wave in July of last year caused milk production to drop.

"It just got so hot that during the day it rarely dropped below 110 degrees and the cattle were loathe to eat," Marsh said.

Dairy farmers lost about 21,000 head of cattle and another 11,000 calves, disrupting the breeding season. At the same time, the demand -- and the cost -- of corn went up.

A serious drought in Australia, which typically supplied dairy products to the Far East, halted production. Then New Zealand enacted new environmental regulations in 2007 that caused some dairy farmers to retire. Next, European export subsidies disappeared at the same time China, Japan, Indonesia and Vietnam began importing.

"So, all of a sudden, at the same time the American dairy herds were shrinking, the only international player in the dairy market left was the U.S.," Marsh said. "And with the burgeoning world demand for dairy proteins, foreign buyers began buying from American dairy suppliers."

As of July 1, farmers receive about $1.99 for every gallon that goes into the bottle, he said. That will rise to $2.03 beginning Wednesday.

There's no correlation, however, between what farmers receive and what stores charge.

The state agriculture department has set a "milk floor" -- the lowest price at which retailers can sell milk. For example, if it costs $2.50 a gallon to get the milk from the farm and into the bottle, then the retailer cannot sell it for less than that.

The milk floor changes month-to-month, but there is no cap on the price a retailer can charge in California, unlike in other states.

Marsh said the high-priced dairy trend will eventually reverse, and milk prices will go down when production goes up.



And here's a more scholarly explanation (http://trmep.tamu.edu/cg/factsheets/rm2-41.pdf)from Texas A&M. Hawai'i has a double whammy because now you produce very little of your own milk...most of it is imported from CONUS and fuel prices for shipping goods have gone up significantly in recent months.

Miulang

[glossyp]

Another reason for the closing of Meadow Gold is explained in this Honolulu Advertiser article (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Jan/21/bz/FP701210341.html) from January. Some of us tried to get our local congressional delegation to lobby for an exemption for Hawaii, but I never got a response. As far as I know, nothing was done. For a real eye-opener (and not in a good way) check out Larry Geller's posts (http://freerangegourmet.com/2007/06/rest-of-story-on-oahu-spoiled-milk.html) about how milk gets here from the mainland, "milk is shipped to Oahu from the Mainland in unrefrigerated containers." is just one of the highlights. He does note that Costco brings in the milk they sell here in refrigerated containers.

Regarding the rising cost of corn because we're burning up our food supply for fuel, there are no words to describe how short-sighted that actually is. And, just noting Miulang's post above, excellent info there.

[Miulang]

Another reason for the closing of Meadow Gold is explained in this Honolulu Advertiser article (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Jan/21/bz/FP701210341.html) from January. Some of us tried to get our local congressional delegation to lobby for an exemption for Hawaii, but I never got a response. As far as I know, nothing was done. For a real eye-opener (and not in a good way) check out Larry Geller's posts (http://freerangegourmet.com/2007/06/rest-of-story-on-oahu-spoiled-milk.html) about how milk gets here from the mainland, "milk is shipped to Oahu from the Mainland in unrefrigerated containers." is just one of the highlights. He does note that Costco brings in the milk they sell here in refrigerated containers.
.
AARGH! That's really despicable! Good thing I am lactose-sensitive and can't drink whole milk (if I drink milk at all, I drink 1%). Isn't there any way to get some kind of response out of the Hawaii Congressional delegation? I wonder if the UH or the state Dept. of Agriculture have done any testing on the re-pasturized milk to see if its quality has degraded significantly in transit? Do the distributors in Hawai'i add additional vitamins that might have degraded in the shipping process as part of the re-pasturization process? And do the Oahu distributors ship re-pasturized milk to the Neighbor Islands in refrigerated containers or insulated ones?

Not everybody can afford to buy a Costco membership!:mad: Maybe there's a way to get to Meadow Gold and Haleakala Dairy and other milk distributors in Hawai'i to ship milk in refrigerated containers from CONUS instead of in insulated ones? Of course, that will increase prices to consumers, but we're talking about people's (especially growing kids) health here. I don't think many young families will forego milk even if it costs more if they know the milk is handled properly.

Miulang

[Pomai]

Perhaps in light of www.HonoluluGasPrices.com (http://www.honolulugasprices.com/), they should create a sister-site @ HonoluluMilkPrices.com. ;)

Milk and dairy in general is actually one of several notable commodities (along with real estate) that my sister Keanu said was significantly cheaper in Missouri, where she recently moved back home to Hawaii from.

I love milk. Tank the stuff. :)

[Random]

Yes, it has something to do with more corn being used for ethanol production, but it's also because of higher fuel prices to transport the milk, and more expensive grain to feed the dairy cattle, the increased demand for milk products from American and foreign consumers (much of our milk goes into cheese products), and the weird way the government stacks the deck by having a milk price "floor" that is adjusted monthly (as noted in this article (http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1014046/supermarket_squeeze/index.html)).
Wait a minute. They need the edible part of the corn to make ethanol?

Well, that sucks.

[timkona]

Ethanol is a perfectly good example of a policy rooted in cognitive dissonance.

Ethanol is a negative return resource. Takes more fossil fuel energy to create than it returns during it's use.

And of course, creating ethanol from corn is like taking the food out of your child's mouth, and tossing it into the fire to stay warm.

Ethanol is a liberal, environmentalist's dream come true. It's amazing to me how many people simply refuse to see the truth due to the blinders of a belief system rooted in wishful thinking.

Save the Humans.

[GeckoGeek]

Ethanol is a negative return resource. Takes more fossil fuel energy to create than it returns during it's use.

I think it depends on the crop used and some other details.

Still, I have a hard time seeing ethanol going all that far in Hawaii in the long term. Hawaii's labor and land prices are just too high compared to the 3rd world. Long term, it will probably be cheaper to import.

If that happens, then we'll have a second local surgar crash.

[timkona]

I've gone into this topic before, with citings and references.

But please, Gecko, choose belief and opinion over facts, science, or knowledge. :cool:

[Leo Lakio]

But please, Gecko, choose belief and opinion over facts, science, or knowledge. :cool:Yeah - because we ALL know that typical liberal cognitive dissonant politics of "no" are responsible for everything that's wrong with the world - from the price of milk, to access issues with the Superferry, to aircraft corrosion, to disrespect for women by men (and vice versa), to the return of Lord Voldemort. We know it because Tim has continually convinced us with his overwhelmingly superior logic, knowledge and guidance.

So, fall in line, will ya, GG? Or Tim will think that you "hit" him first - and we all know where that will end.

;)

[timkona]

Well Leo, it sounds like you are finally starting to understand. But I don't remember mentioning the corrosive effects of Lord Valdemort upon the hull of the Superferry.

But with the case of ethanol production, which clearly drives up the price of milk due to increased demand for cattle feed (ie corn, and other feed crops), there is one particular point that should worry you......

When the liberals and the conservatives line up together and agree on a subject, in this case ethanol production, then that should be enough to set off every alarm bell you have.:eek:

[Random]

So, ethanol is no good.

We're still light-years away from processing hydrogen as fuel.

We're gonna be stuck with fossil fuel for a long, long time, with OPEC controlling that world's supply.

Let's invade Venezuela.

[GeckoGeek]

Let's invade Venezuela.

Nah, let's go with our original plan to make Iraq a democracy so we have have a new best friend in the oil rich middle east. :p (Do you remember how the drumbeat for Iraq started shortly after all the concern that the House of Saudi was going to fall?)

[GeckoGeek]

Yeah - because we ALL know that typical liberal cognitive dissonant politics of "no" are responsible for everything that's wrong with the world - from the price of milk, to access issues with the Superferry, to aircraft corrosion, to disrespect for women by men (and vice versa), to the return of Lord Voldemort.

I think that's giving it too much credit. Remind me sometime to talk about the "politics of problems".

[TuNnL]

Ethanol is a negative return resource. Takes more fossil fuel energy to create than it returns during it's use.

And of course, creating ethanol from corn ......which is yet another one of Tim's ignorant misinformed assumptions: they only way to make ethanol, is from corn.

Here in Hawai‘i, the only way ethanol companies plan to make their product is from sugar cane. Frankly, it’s cheaper, and takes less resources. Already in Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil) and Australia (http://nqr.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=44164), companies are growing a strong and profitable ethanol business using sugar cane.

The main advantage, ofcourse, is its proliferation helps science continue to develop alternative fuel from agricultural sources (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2155351.ece). </offtopic>

[Leo Lakio]

Save the Humans.Tim, I think I may have finally found the energy solution that will please you greatly, on many levels.

Enjoy (http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/073107/baby-boomers.gif).

[dyasu]

Interesting to see that a thread about milk has become this economic debate :P

I will now attempt to hijack this thread back to its original purpose...

SO... I'm not much of a milk drinker but Costco seems pretty OK on price!

[Leo Lakio]

Interesting to see that a thread about milk has become this economic debate :PNew to HT, aren'cha? :D (It happens often, but thanks for adjusting the track.)
Here's a question for Hawai`i residents (as I am not):

If you were to create your own Index of Island Economics, based solely on the average purchase price of selected commodities available in Hawai`i, what five items would you choose to be your measurement indicators, excluding land and housing?

Milk? Gasoline? Cheerios? Matchbox cars?

[GeckoGeek]

The main advantage, ofcourse, is its proliferation helps science continue to develop alternative fuel from agricultural sources (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2155351.ece). </offtopic>

You know, I'd like to see someone do some calculations to see how much energy there is in all these alternatives. Just because something can produce energy doesn't mean it's practical on a large scale. For example, roughly how many acres will it take to convert from oil to biofuel? Or to go all solar energy? I see all these technologies designed to "lessen our dependence on foreign oil" and yet that only seem to talk about "up to 20% of our energy usage".

Oh, dang, there's those facts again....

[acousticlady]

You know, I'd like to see someone do some calculations to see how much energy there is in all these alternatives. Just because something can produce energy doesn't mean it's practical on a large scale. For example, roughly how many acres will it take to convert from oil to biofuel? Or to go all solar energy? I see all these technologies designed to "lessen our dependence on foreign oil" and yet that only seem to talk about "up to 20% of our energy usage".

Oh, dang, there's those facts again....

I believe the technology and research is out there to completely change over from fossil fuels. There are a host of alternatives - solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen. All are viable alternatives. Maybe not all in one place and maybe not just one. But in combination and with a concerted effort by our gov't, we could change over completely within a very short time. Of course, getting the politicians to invoke that change.......:eek:

[Random]

Here in Hawai‘i, the only way ethanol companies plan to make their product is from sugar cane. Frankly, it’s cheaper, and takes less resources. Already in Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil) and Australia (http://nqr.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=44164), companies are growing a strong and profitable ethanol business using sugar cane.
Are we still growing sugar cane in Hawaii? I thought Brazil stole that business from us a long time ago.

Sure, we can use sugar cane but that's not going to stop corn farmers from diverting [all] of their resources back to cattle feed and food consumption.

[Random]

I believe the technology and research is out there to completely change over from fossil fuels. There are a host of alternatives - solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen. All are viable alternatives. Maybe not all in one place and maybe not just one. But in combination and with a concerted effort by our gov't, we could change over completely within a very short time. Of course, getting the politicians to invoke that change.......:eek:
Perhaps, but how you're going to convince the public to trade in their gas guzzler for a hydro-car?

There's a reason why used car dealerships still exist.

[timkona]

Hey TuNnL, I mentioned "corn, and other feed crops", so please know that I realize it's not just corn.

Acousticlady mentions the classic misconception that exists right now in America concerning the implementation of alternative energy. She wants the government to do something. Alternatives have been available for 20 years or more. It's the CONSUMERS who don't CHOOSED them. Consumers buy SUV's instead of electric vehicles. Consumers buy their power from HELCO instead of installing solar power on the rooftop. Consumers say they can't afford the $7 flourescent lightbulbs. It's all about choice. Consumers choose what they want. Solar Power is cost effective and perfectly capable of powering our entire nation.

I probably ought to buy a cow.

[joshuatree]

Perhaps, but how you're going to convince the public to trade in their gas guzzler for a hydro-car?

There's a reason why used car dealerships still exist.

Hydro-cars aren't the most expensive part, it's the production of liquid hydrogen and the distribution.

A really quick and effective way to encourage trading in gas-guzzlers is to boost taxes and fees on larger cars. There is a reason why there is a subculture of cars with 600cc or smaller engines in Japan. But then, do we have the will power? Or is it gonna be an argument about choice as usually what happens in this country?

[timkona]

Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. :cool:

How about LOWER the tax rates for Automobile Manufacturers who sell a given number of cars of alternative fuel power?

Many answers can be found in taxes. Taxation is a two way street. Try leading the donkey with a carrot rather than a whip.

[joshuatree]

Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. :cool:

How about LOWER the tax rates for Automobile Manufacturers who sell a given number of cars of alternative fuel power?

Many answers can be found in taxes. Taxation is a two way street. Try leading the donkey with a carrot rather than a whip.

But we do that as well. There is a limit per year but X number of hybrids purchased get a nice tax credit. In California, they are eligible for carpool lanes even though there is only one driver.

How about cleaning up some loopholes like how Hummers qualify for farm equipment tax credits if you own a business because the darn thing weighs over 6000 lbs?

[acousticlady]

Hey TuNnL, I mentioned "corn, and other feed crops", so please know that I realize it's not just corn.

Acousticlady mentions the classic misconception that exists right now in America concerning the implementation of alternative energy. She wants the government to do something. Alternatives have been available for 20 years or more. It's the CONSUMERS who don't CHOOSED them. Consumers buy SUV's instead of electric vehicles. Consumers buy their power from HELCO instead of installing solar power on the rooftop. Consumers say they can't afford the $7 flourescent lightbulbs. It's all about choice. Consumers choose what they want. Solar Power is cost effective and perfectly capable of powering our entire nation.

I probably ought to buy a cow.

At this point I could get really sarcastic about those really rich republicans who are buying the SUVs and Hummers..........but I won't go there.

Instead, I'd like to point out that for the average consumer, alternative sources are beyond their capabilities. Take the solar water heater program right here in HI. A recent article in the Maui News broke down the cost to the average homeowner. A system (without any help from various agencies) would cost about $6000. With co-pays and various tax credits, the cost of the system is reduced to $1600. Frankly, I can't afford $6000 to change over to solar. But I can afford $1600. And I am in a better situation than many. For many people, even shelling out an additional $1600 is a burden.

You are correct that the options have been available for 20 yrs or more. But the cost of changing over is beyond the capability of most. Consumers who buy brand new SUVs are part of the problem but I think Random had a better point with the existence of used car dealerships. A new hybrid car goes for $15,000 - $20,000. A good used car will go for about $5000. Big difference.

Let's forget about the car issue for a moment. What about electricity? The electrical power that comes into your home does not have to be produced using fossil fuels. The actual electricity is produced by moving a huge coil of wire over a huge magnet. It is the movement of the coil that requires power. That can come from anything (including man power if necessary :eek:). That is where the government comes in. If the government mandates that all power companys must change over to non-fossil fuels - you can bet they will.

The tone the government sets is the tone the people will take. If the president, senate and congress work together (I know - what a concept!) to set an example and, say, refuse the oil lobbyists, then I bet you would see major changes in a short amount of time. I know, I know - it's that living in the ivory tower thing again...........

[cynsaligia]

sorry, sorry, sorry, this is off the original topic of milk, but yesterday, the beau had coincidentally sent me the following piece from the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/25/automobiles/autospecial/25small.html?ei=5070&en=eea4b59b42a9531f&ex=1186200000&pagewanted=all). you'll need to subscribe to see the whole article, tho.

according to the writer, "A full-size S.U.V., for example, earns a profit, before expenses, of nearly $9,000, more than 20 times the $400 that Detroit companies earn on the sale of each subcompact, says CNW Market Research of Bandon, Ore."

a couple of years ago, slate.com posted a piece (http://www.slate.com/id/2104755/)which pointed out that most of the bigger SUVs are actually banned from many cali streets but most peeps don't know it.

additionally, a film came out at the end of june called "who killed the electric car?" (http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/index.html):

"In 1996, General Motors (G.M.) launched the first modern-day commercially available electric car, the EV1. The car required no fuel and could be plugged in for recharging at home and at a number of so-called battery parks.

Many of the people who leased the car, including a number of celebrities, said the car drove like a dream.

'...the EV1 was a high performer. It could do a U-turn on a dime; it was incredibly quiet and smooth. And it was fast. I could beat any Porsche off the line at a stoplight. I loved it,' Actress, Alexandra Paul told NOW.

....

But it was not to be. A little over 1,000 EV1s were produced by G.M. before the company pulled the plug on the project in 2002 due to insufficient demand. Other major car makers also ceased production of their electric vehicles.

In the wake of a legal challenge from G.M. and DaimlerChrysler, California amended its regulations and abandoned its goals. Shortly thereafter, automakers began reclaiming and dismantling their electrics as they came off lease.

Some suggest that G.M. -- which says it invested some $1 billion in the EV1 -- never really wanted the cars to take off. They say G.M. intentionally sabotaged their own marketing efforts because they feared the car would cannibalize its existing business."

again, sorry for going off topic.

[Random]

Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. :cool:
We raised tax on cigarettes and still people smoke. :rolleyes:

The discouragement method is not going to work on the public consumers. They need incentive.

[Random]

Hydro-cars aren't the most expensive part, it's the production of liquid hydrogen and the distribution.
True, but then why build a hydro-station that have no demand for it in Hawaii that you can profit from?

[Random]

Let's forget about the car issue for a moment. What about electricity? The electrical power that comes into your home does not have to be produced using fossil fuels. The actual electricity is produced by moving a huge coil of wire over a huge magnet. It is the movement of the coil that requires power. That can come from anything (including man power if necessary :eek:). That is where the government comes in. If the government mandates that all power companys must change over to non-fossil fuels - you can bet they will.
You want the Federales to step in and tell what your local municipal power supply company to make change or face a hefty fine?

You do realize that enforcing a fine would mean they would have less money to invest in the next-generation power turbine. It also means that to compensate for the fine, they'll want to raise power rate, so it'll pass on to the consumers.

Again, discouragement method won't work.

Are you suggesting man-power to make the turbines rotate to generate power? That's a hefty payroll, which will have to come from the customers paying their electric bills (after the power rate hike is approved).

[GeckoGeek]

I believe the technology and research is out there to completely change over from fossil fuels.

Tantalizing, but not quite there yet.


There are a host of alternatives - solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen.

Solar - doesn't work at night. No one has worked out the massive energy storage systems to make it work.

Wind - also not there all the time. Power output fluctuates minute by minute. Again, the energy storage technology isn't there to allow it to become a major source of power.

Geothermal - not suitable for many places in the world. Cultural issues for Hawaii.

Hydrogen - Since there are no hydrogen wells, it's a transmission/storage medium, not a fuel source. (However, I've noticed that G4 nuke plants are said to be able to create hydrogen. :D )

Much of what you see are just cover jobs that hide the bigger issues with the technology. What's needed is heavy research to deal with the issues and bring the costs down, not running out and trying to build the things.

Last but not the least, for Hawaii to truly become energy independent, we have to come up with a replacement for jet fuel. Because jet fuel is what runs our one-trick pony economy.

[GeckoGeek]

How about LOWER the tax rates for Automobile Manufacturers who sell a given number of cars of alternative fuel power?

Many answers can be found in taxes. Taxation is a two way street. Try leading the donkey with a carrot rather than a whip.

But then there's less money to fund all those great social programs. :p Getting politicians to take cuts in their power source is rather difficult.

[GeckoGeek]

Solar Power is cost effective and perfectly capable of powering our entire nation.

I'm not sure if you are making that claim or are lumping it in with the public misconception. But it's a false statement given the current technology.

[TuNnL]

Hey TuNnL, I mentioned "corn, and other feed crops", so please know that I realize it's not just corn.Since when is sugar considered a “feed crop”? Maybe I might ‘feed’ it to horses in Waimānalo for a special treat, but give us a break, Tim. :rolleyes:

[acousticlady]

Y
Are you suggesting man-power to make the turbines rotate to generate power? That's a hefty payroll, which will have to come from the customers paying their electric bills (after the power rate hike is approved).

I was being sarcastic - came across much better in my head :p

All of my suggestions on this work much better up in my ivory tower.....

It's why I could never be a politician.

[glossyp]

At this point I could get really sarcastic about those really rich republicans who are buying the SUVs and Hummers..........but I won't go there.
I had no idea that only really rich repubs drove all those SUVS and Hummers on the streets of Hawaii.:eek: They must not vote or we'd have a different legislature.

Back OT for a moment, what is most discouraging to me is that the end of dairy production here on Oahu is the loss of a product which we are fully capable of producing and now we will be importing it and much of that will be of substandard quality.

[joshuatree]

"In 1996, General Motors (G.M.) launched the first modern-day commercially available electric car, the EV1.

I got a chance to test drive the EV1 back then. It was a fun car flooring it at the light. Electric motors are a lot more powerful than combustion engines. Too bad for GM, if they kept the program going, they could have easily been the leader in hybrids instead of Toyota.


True, but then why build a hydro-station that have no demand for it in Hawaii that you can profit from?

I agree with you that you need the car and the fuel to make it work. I was just pointing out the biggest obstacle to fuel cell cars right now is the economical mass production of liquid hydrogen and its distribution.


Are you suggesting man-power to make the turbines rotate to generate power? That's a hefty payroll, which will have to come from the customers paying their electric bills (after the power rate hike is approved).

Prison labor!!! :p

Better than them lifting weights all the time. All we need is a drum beater.


I'm not sure if you are making that claim or are lumping it in with the public misconception. But it's a false statement given the current technology.

Solar has the ability to make a huge dent in our current power consumption but I agree, it's not ready to completely replace. The biggest benefit I can see for solar in Hawaii is to help provide the extra juice during peak load hours which is usually during daylight hours. That way, the base load needed by power plants can be minimized. Right now, plants are designed to provide enough power to cover peak loads, but since plants can'y be readily shut down, there's a lot of wasted electricity at night.

[GeckoGeek]

Solar has the ability to make a huge dent in our current power consumption

I guess it depends on what you mean by "huge dent". Right now, I don't think it can do much more then shave some percentage points off of fossil fuel. Because the output of photo voltaic keeps changing (and can disappear suddenly), it can never be more then the power grid's ability to adjust to the change.

Solar for water heating it great - but currently it's only practical for certain types of buildings. If we're serious about expanding that, we need some incentives for landlords to install them. Because why would a landlord install it for a rental to lower the operating cost for their tenant? We also need to expand the use of heat pumps. They are more practical for apartment owners who have no access to a roof.

[Random]

Prison labor!!! :p

Better than them lifting weights all the time. All we need is a drum beater.
Now why does that brought up the image of Conan the Barbarian? :p

[Random]

Let's face it, folks. We're stuck with fossil fuel.

Sighs. My dream of an independent Sovereign Republic of Hawaii is all but dashed. :(

[GeckoGeek]

A G4 nuke plant stuck in those surplus hollowed out military sites might work out nicely. The mountain would add extra shielding and protect it from terrorist airplanes. Unfortunately none are expected to be built until 2030.

But it still doesn't fuel our tourist trade. :(

I'd be curious about the amount of land needed for biofuels. Biofuel, biomass, etc solve a lot of problems with solar and wind. Even if we import it, we have more flexibility on where it can be imported from. We can choose to import from more friendly nations.

[joshuatree]

Solar for water heating it great - but currently it's only practical for certain types of buildings. If we're serious about expanding that, we need some incentives for landlords to install them. Because why would a landlord install it for a rental to lower the operating cost for their tenant? We also need to expand the use of heat pumps. They are more practical for apartment owners who have no access to a roof.

That's what I'm referring to, the combination of solar based applications such as photovoltic panels to solar water heaters to heat pumps. A combo of these apps will help with peak power usage. And I agree more incentives need to be created to encourage the spread of these applications.

A G4 nuke plant stuck in those surplus hollowed out military sites might work out nicely. The mountain would add extra shielding and protect it from terrorist airplanes. Unfortunately none are expected to be built until 2030.

But it still doesn't fuel our tourist trade. :(

I'd be curious about the amount of land needed for biofuels. Biofuel, biomass, etc solve a lot of problems with solar and wind. Even if we import it, we have more flexibility on where it can be imported from. We can choose to import from more friendly nations.

Instead of simply looking at just how to replace fuels we use, I would say it's easier to take smaller steps on maximizing the most of what we use now and how to be more efficient. Encourage solar apps, maybe allow smaller micro cars in the Hawaii market? And maybe investigate more on how we can generate electricity from ocean waves, we got practically an unlimited amount of that and it's 24/7. I think we already import from friendly nations, think Australia and Indonesia are our two primary suppliers.

Now why does that brought up the image of Conan the Barbarian? :p

Gotta admit, that be funny and cool and productive all at once. :D

[GeckoGeek]

And maybe investigate more on how we can generate electricity from ocean waves, we got practically an unlimited amount of that and it's 24/7.

I wonder how steady that power is?

And I also wonder who's going to allow it to go up? Sounds good in theory, but when you select a site, I'll bet the howling will begin.

[timkona]

Gecko is referring to the Politics of NO, in case some of you did not understand.

[joshuatree]

I wonder how steady that power is?

And I also wonder who's going to allow it to go up? Sounds good in theory, but when you select a site, I'll bet the howling will begin.

I don't remember if I ever mentioned this so I apologize if I already did but the Pelamis wave energy converter looks very promising.

http://www.oceanpd.com/default.html

It is anticipated that future `wave farm' projects would consist of an arrangement of interlinked multi-machines connected to shore by a single subsea cable. A typical 30MW installation would occupy a square kilometre of ocean and provide sufficient electricity for 20,000 homes. Twenty of these farms could power a city such as Edinburgh.

Edinburgh has about half the population of Oahu. I think this really has the potential to at least solve our state's electricity needs, not needs for transportation but infrastructure. And yes, I can imagine location will be the biggest argument. Personally, I don't think these machines are ugly at all.

[GeckoGeek]

I don't think surfing is a very popular sport in the UK. So what happens to surfing here when those things are deployed?

Second question is what is the difficulties in placement? The seafloor falls away quite rapidly around the island. I suspect they have to be tethered. That will complicate the install.

What happens when the surf is flat? Seems like it suffers from the same issues as solar and wind. Supply doesn't match demand.

[joshuatree]

I don't think surfing is a very popular sport in the UK. So what happens to surfing here when those things are deployed?

Second question is what is the difficulties in placement? The seafloor falls away quite rapidly around the island. I suspect they have to be tethered. That will complicate the install.

What happens when the surf is flat? Seems like it suffers from the same issues as solar and wind. Supply doesn't match demand.

I really don't think surfing will be impacted as these machines can be deployed quite a distance out. Also, let's not forget, we're not surfing at every single part of our island coastline.

As for tethering, probably a bit of a challenge but nothing overwhelming. If engineers can stabilize an oil platform in the harsh North Sea, I'm sure a solution can be figured out.

As for surf being flat, the details of the machine state they on purposely only have an energy conversion efficiency of 15%. This is to protect the machines from trying to absorb too powerful waves and to survive storms. So I think it will do fine with surf being flat. And one thing to point out, it's not trying to convert wave energy into electricity at the shoreline where the waves break, it just tries to convert energy out in the open with the oscillation of waves.

[GeckoGeek]

I really don't think surfing will be impacted as these machines can be deployed quite a distance out. Also, let's not forget, we're not surfing at every single part of our island coastline.

You take megawatts of energy out of the waves, that's got to have some kind of effect. As to what it affects, it probably depends on what directions the swells are going that day. At some time or another, no matter where you deploy it, the island(s) will end up in it's "shadow".


As for surf being flat,

I think you missed my point. Flat surf = no electricity, right? How dependable is wave power?

I'm not against it, I just have some hard questions up front.

[joshuatree]

You take megawatts of energy out of the waves, that's got to have some kind of effect. As to what it affects, it probably depends on what directions the swells are going that day. At some time or another, no matter where you deploy it, the island(s) will end up in it's "shadow".

I think you missed my point. Flat surf = no electricity, right? How dependable is wave power?

I'm not against it, I just have some hard questions up front.


You take MW out of the water, yes it will have an effect. But what I'm trying to say is the islands are merely specks in the vast Pacific. One degree of difference going out a few miles will translate into a large swath of ocean. So I think there's plenty of waves for power and for surfing. Let's say positioning these machines to the east or west of Oahu so it only affects waves going though the channels, instead of the waves that would be hitting the North Shore for instance.

As for flat surf, I poorly explained my position. I'm trying to say these machines are designed to absorb power from very little waves, as little as a foot, to large waves. I'm not much of a surfer but I think we get decent waves pretty consistently. How often do we literally get no waves?

Asking hard questions is great, because if the idea can take those questions, then it means it stands a good chance of really being a solution.

Here's the power matrix of the machine. I don't pretend to be an expert on it.

http://www.oceanpd.com/Pelamis/Powermatrixgraph.html

"Ideally the Pelamis would be moored in waters approximately 50-60m in depth (often 5-10km from the shore)."

[Random]

Encourage solar apps, maybe allow smaller micro cars in the Hawaii market?
Micro cars? Is that a fancy name for a scooter with more than two wheels?

[joshuatree]

Micro cars? Is that a fancy name for a scooter with more than two wheels?

It can be merely a 4 wheeled scooter but then again, the micro car, Kei car in Japan, has evolved much. Really not a bad concept for Hawaii, especially for work commuting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microvan

[Random]

It can be merely a 4 wheeled scooter but then again, the micro car, Kei car in Japan, has evolved much. Really not a bad concept for Hawaii, especially for work commuting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microvan
Yeah, but in Hawaii, many consider cars as status symbols more than tools.

That, and we're tainted by the image of little clown cars. :p

Besides, Japan don't know how to make kanaka-sized micro cars. Only Germany's VW and Britain's Mini.

[GeckoGeek]

I think the big issue of the micro car is the US crashworthyness standards. I'm sure those cars are just fine in Japan where everything is small. A garbage truck there is about the size of a full-sized pickup (if that big).

Over here, I think people would be too nervous driving a little car in traffic when so many have jacked up SUVs.

[joshuatree]

Yeah, but in Hawaii, many consider cars as status symbols more than tools.

That, and we're tainted by the image of little clown cars. :p

Besides, Japan don't know how to make kanaka-sized micro cars. Only Germany's VW and Britain's Mini.

Hawaii's no exception, anywhere in the world, cars are status symbols. But in an ever growing trend of two car garages and even more, I think there is plenty of room for a family to have their main car and a work commute car.

This part I completely agree. Sadly, we seem to be stuck with a silly notion of clown cars while the rest of the world moved on.

That's not true. While micro cars in Japan do tend to be very small, they build kanaka-sized micro cars for the appropriate markets. The Toyota Aygo is an example for the European market. Gets a 4 star crash worthy rating from the Euro NCAP. Gets 50+ MPG without having to use fancy hybrid tech.

This site has some older kei cars for import into Canada but if you click through the model lists, there's a few sporty looking micro cars.

http://www.kei-cars.com/index_files/database.htm


I think the big issue of the micro car is the US crashworthyness standards. I'm sure those cars are just fine in Japan where everything is small. A garbage truck there is about the size of a full-sized pickup (if that big).

Over here, I think people would be too nervous driving a little car in traffic when so many have jacked up SUVs.

I think that notion is slowly being changed. The Smart car will soon be available in the US market and it is small. Yet, they've made it meet crashworthyness standards. Maybe it's also time we start to divy up the lanes on our freeways like the way Canadians and Australians do so smaller cars are in a certain segment and larger cars in another.


But going back to price of milk. :D

http://starbulletin.com/2007/08/05/news/story01.html

[GeckoGeek]

But going back to price of milk. :D

Next headline: Milk subsidies drive up biofuel costs? :rolleyes:

[Miulang]

The bad news (that you already know) is that milk prices in Honolulu are the highest in the country. But the good news is that Pacific Dairy (http://starbulletin.com/2007/08/05/news/story01.html), the last local dairy on Oahu, is not going to close down after all, thanks to a new state subsidy for feed costs. So if you want local milk and are willing to pay the price, then milk with the "Island Fresh" marking should still be available. It's also comforting to know that Honolulu school kids get first crack at any locally produced milk when they buy milk in the cafeteria and not the re-pasturized stuff coming from the Mainland.

Legislation that took effect July 1 sets aside $3 million for each of the next two years to subsidize feed costs for dairy and poultry farms. In passing the bill, lawmakers noted that feed costs account for a larger fraction of production costs in Hawaii than elsewhere, and stressed the need for the state to have its own fresh milk and eggs.

Miulang

[Random]

This part I completely agree. Sadly, we seem to be stuck with a silly notion of clown cars while the rest of the world moved on.
At least we can laugh at them for owning clown cars and being serious and proud of the fact. :D

[GeckoGeek]

I've ridden in Japanese taxis. They remind me of old Toyota Corollas - not very big on the outside. But the back seat was comfortable for me and I'm 6'.

[DKP]

Regarding alt. fuel, another source:

http://www.pacificbiodiesel.com/

Made from water and used fry oil and grease. No corn/soybeans needed, just stuff pumped from traps (and some imported from the mainland because not too many eateries to pull from). Runs great in your diesel engine w/no mods. required, and smells much better. Cheaper than than the diesel elsewhere. If no diesel engine or you live on an outer island (not counting Mau'i) you're not sol, you can convert your's (albeit w/possibly some issues), and produce your own without spending much.

There are so many used Mercedes/VW for sale on O'ahu that run great on this stuff :)

Re: Milk

I also tank the stuff. It keeps me from looking like a lollipop :(

[acousticlady]

http://www.oceanpd.com/default.html

It is anticipated that future `wave farm' projects would consist of an arrangement of interlinked multi-machines connected to shore by a single subsea cable. A typical 30MW installation would occupy a square kilometre of ocean and provide sufficient electricity for 20,000 homes. Twenty of these farms could power a city such as Edinburgh.



Wow, can't believe I missed this discussion. I was back reading and came across it. I was away for a few days. Right now I have to go somewhere so I'll have to get back to it later tonight. This one is right up my alley. If not for anything else, what an excellent example for my students. I'm always looking for "real world" applications to the theory. By tomorrow, I'll have the math done! :D

[Random]

I also tank the stuff. It keeps me from looking like a lollipop :(
???

A big head supported by a thin frame?

As for biodiesel, I dunno. If we're going to be driving Japanese micro cars, we'll have to lay off on fried food. That could mean a shortage of used cooking oil. Better to utilize what agricultural resources we're normally known for: sugar cane and pineapple.

[DKP]

???

A big head supported by a thin frame?



Yup. I've an uber high metabolism. Good in some ways...bad because to keep on pounds I usually have to buy protein powder...expensive sometimes :(


As for biodiesel, I dunno. If we're going to be driving Japanese micro cars, we'll have to lay off on fried food. That could mean a shortage of used cooking oil. Better to utilize what agricultural resources we're normally known for: sugar cane and pineapple.

Might as well use the grease and oil that otherwise ends up in the landfills (the guy who started the company started it because of that.) The grease trap pumping companies take it to the Sand Island plant instead.

Plus, there are already a crapload of used, affordable, and efficient diesel vehicles around for sale (I'm talking certain 90's models here)...might as well reuse those as well.

Sugar cane and pineapple are ok to use...but cane takes alot of water, land (which could be used for other types of crops), and power (in the conversion process.)

Biodiesel uses gravity, time, and not as much water. I agree, we can't all use it...but it is ONE alternative...one that is underutilized.

In certain cities, this stuff is used in their bus systems (including school buses.)

[GeckoGeek]

Biodiesel uses gravity, time, and not as much water. I agree, we can't all use it...but it is ONE alternative...one that is underutilized.


Is it still underutilized? I thought I'd heard a report that there were more takers then used oil.

[joshuatree]

Wow, can't believe I missed this discussion. I was back reading and came across it. I was away for a few days. Right now I have to go somewhere so I'll have to get back to it later tonight. This one is right up my alley. If not for anything else, what an excellent example for my students. I'm always looking for "real world" applications to the theory. By tomorrow, I'll have the math done! :D

Looking forward to it. Glad to see others interested in alternative forms of power.


As for biodiesel, I dunno. If we're going to be driving Japanese micro cars, we'll have to lay off on fried food. That could mean a shortage of used cooking oil. Better to utilize what agricultural resources we're normally known for: sugar cane and pineapple.

Random, what if the micro car was fitted to sit one person, steering wheel in the middle, like a F1 race car instead? Then the micro car is still small on the exterior dimensions but ample room for the interior. Would that appeal to you then? I know one can say, then why not just get a motorcycle but not everyone is proficient, or has the courage, or wants to brave the elements.

Everyday, one can see so many single occupant work commuters on the freeways. If all these people simply used micro cars, the gridlock issue would be alleviated significantly, no doubt in my mind as maybe 2 or 3 micro cars take the same space of 1 suburban.

[acousticlady]

http://www.oceanpd.com/default.html

It is anticipated that future `wave farm' projects would consist of an arrangement of interlinked multi-machines connected to shore by a single subsea cable. A typical 30MW installation would occupy a square kilometre of ocean and provide sufficient electricity for 20,000 homes. Twenty of these farms could power a city such as Edinburgh.



All right, for today's lesson - I know you've all been waiting for this with bated breath and nothing else to worry about:rolleyes:- Here's my explaination of how this works. And notice..... no math (just for our non-techies)! I'm assuming no knowledge of this so for some this may seem elementary.

It is really just a simple case of conservation of energy. The official definition of this is "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, simply transformed from one kind to another." In this case, we are transforming physical energy from the ocean wave to electrical energy. All waves have the same properties. They all have a frequency (or wavelength) and an ampltude. The actual definition of a wave is "A mechanism to transport energy from one point in space to another point in space with no net movement of the mechanism itself." What makes one wave different from another is the mechanism used to transport the energy. Ocean waves, seismic waves and sound waves are examples of physical waves. Physical particles (water, earth, air) vibrate up and down, transferring it's energy to the particle next to it and that one tranfers its energy to the next and so on. Electrical energy uses the movement of electrons in a wire or cable.

We all know the ocean waves have energy. I'm sure we've all been knocked over by the force of a wave at one time or another. The larger the wave, the more force or energy it has. The size of the wave is it's amplitude. How often the waves come in is it's frequency (i.e., how many waves per second). During the storm, the frequency is greatly increased getting one wave after another - making surfing more difficult, but on average the frequency remains fairly consistant. I'm going to appeal to the surfers here - when you are waiting for a good wave to come along and you sit there bobbing up and down, you are acting the same way as one of the water particles (no net movement from one point to another).

OK - the amount of energy is dependent purely on it's frequency and amplitude. So a whole lot of little waves can have the same amount of energy available as only a few large waves. We can't really measure the total energy, but we can measure the amount of energy per second hitting a specific area (the intensity). This is where they get the 30 megawatts over a square kilometer. A watt is the power or energy per second. When that is measured over a square kilometer, it is the intensity. When we look at it mathematically, it is proportional to the frequency squared and the amplitude squared. So the amount of energy available in a 2 foot wave is 4 times as much as in a 1 foot wave. This becomes important when we transform it into electrical energy.

Now, electricity is simply the motion of electrons within a wire. If the the electrons move in one direction, it is direct current (DC). This is what your batteries supply. But, if the electrons move back and forth it is called AC (alternating current). This is what you get out of your sockets. When it comes to running your lights or appliances it doesn't make a difference which you use. However, AC is much easier to make. When the electrons move back and forth, it is an electrical energy wave. How far back and forth they move from it's original position is it's amplitude and how quickly the move back and forth is its frequency. The easiest way to do this is to move a magnet back and forth through a coil of wire (there is an intricate connection between magnets and electricity - another lesson :D) The electrons react exactly to the magnet's speed in and out. Moving the magnet in quickly forces the electrons to move far from their original position - large amplitude. How often the magnet moves through dictates the electrons frequency. The intensity of the electrical energy is only proportional to its amplitude and frequency ( a 2 foot wave is only 2X and strong as a 1 foot wave).

To transform the ocean's energy into electricity, the waves hit the "machines" which causes the magnet to move through the coil which causes the electrons to move. The coil is connected to the cable extending to land and voila (or is it viola?) we have electricity. And, because the amount of energy in an ocean wave is dependant on the square of the freq. and amp., it takes a lot less ocean energy to make the 30 Megewatts advertised.

Ok, probably more info than you needed - but school starts in a couple of weeks and its good practice for me!

[joshuatree]

A detailed explanation indeed, I'm no expert in the field so I can't say if you left out any details but sounds right to me. So, do you think this application will work for our islands?

[acousticlady]

A detailed explanation indeed, I'm no expert in the field so I can't say if you left out any details but sounds right to me. So, do you think this application will work for our islands?

Yes, I think of all the alternatives this one has the most promise. Even during the summer, when the swells are small, the amount of energy that could be generated should be more than enough. Especially on the outer islands where the number of wave machines would be much less. But even on Oahu. They may need a few more than is being used in Edinburgh.

Asthetically it shouldn't be a problem as they could be placed out of site. They could also be placed outside of the whales primary sites. Theoretically they could be placed as far out as we want. Just need a longer cable. But the longer th cable the more we need to worry about energy loss through the lines. Much as we do now, transformers may be needed to help boost the power in transit.

[GeckoGeek]

Much as we do now, transformers may be needed to help boost the power in transit.

Uhhhhh, transformers don't boost power. They may well be needed at both ends to minimize the power lost.

I still wonder how reliable the power output would be, both short and long term. How hard is it to accurately forecast how much power is available? Because that's going to translate into how much energy will be spent in keeping convectional generators in stand-by.

Then there's the whole "politics of 'no'" and what it's going to do to the surf. Surf doesn't come from one direction, so I'm not sure is there's a place it can be put that would assure everyone that it won't affect surfing.

[acousticlady]

Uhhhhh, transformers don't boost power. They may well be needed at both ends to minimize the power lost.



Duhhhh - you got me. Power in = power out. Wording issue. 10 points off for me :o Nothing like doing exactly what I preach not to do.....

As far as the issues surrounding this, I'd love the opportunity to investigate it further. Somehow I think the effect on surfing would be minimal. And I still think that given the other alternatives, this one has promise.

But you are right. The politics of NO will be the biggest issue. Always is.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

But you are right. The politics of NO will be the biggest issue. Always is.

*rubs throbbing temples*

[GeckoGeek]

The politics of NO will be the biggest issue.

And that's why we need to quantify the effects right up front. How much will it affect surf? Will it affect the whales? Any other marine life?

[acousticlady]

And that's why we need to quantify the effects right up front. How much will it affect surf? Will it affect the whales? Any other marine life?

yup - research needs to be done first - no doubt about it. Getting in touch with the group in the UK would be a good start. Getting researchers at UH involved is another. Again, I think the affect on the surf is the least of the problems. One solution (and this is off the top of my head) would be to place them where we want to reduce the surf such as near harbors. We use jettys now to reduce the surf in those areas. No matter what, the affect to the surf would only be just beyond the machines themselves. One property of waves is that they wrap around any obsticle. So theoretically, the wave height would return to normal a relatively short distance beyond the machines. No, I don't have the exact numbers but the effect would diminish as 1/r^2 (inverse square law).

I think the bigger question would be to marine life. I certainly wouldn't want to see these machines in the path of the whales or over top of coral reefs. But that is one big ocean out there. Lots of space and lots of energy.

[GeckoGeek]

I think the affect on the surf is the least of the problems.

I guess it depends on how you rank the problems. I'm thinking in terms of public perception of what the impact will be. I'll bet it ranks #1 or #2.

[acousticlady]

I guess it depends on how you rank the problems. I'm thinking in terms of public perception of what the impact will be. I'll bet it ranks #1 or #2.

Speaking hypothetically here, let's pretend we are going to present this to the public. Wouldn't we want to dash those fears right up front? I can easily imagine presenting the idea on tv. Then we could show a demonstration that proves the wave problem would be minimal. This could be done with a classroom wave demo. Very cool toy!

[joshuatree]

Speaking hypothetically here, let's pretend we are going to present this to the public. Wouldn't we want to dash those fears right up front? I can easily imagine presenting the idea on tv. Then we could show a demonstration that proves the wave problem would be minimal. This could be done with a classroom wave demo. Very cool toy!

With all the talk about alternative power from the governor, it be nice to see the state fund a trial unit just like they are doing in Europe. That will demonstrate the effectiveness of the concept and the tolerance/acceptance factor from the public. The power generated can always be sold to HECO.

[acousticlady]

With all the talk about alternative power from the governor, it be nice to see the state fund a trial unit just like they are doing in Europe. That will demonstrate the effectiveness of the concept and the tolerance/acceptance factor from the public. The power generated can always be sold to HECO.

It would. Do you or anyone have any idea how to go about it? I'm good at the details of the thing and I think I could get a few profs on board at UH (I think....) but what to do next?????? I don't even know where the governor lives:o :rolleyes:

[joshuatree]

It would. Do you or anyone have any idea how to go about it? I'm good at the details of the thing and I think I could get a few profs on board at UH (I think....) but what to do next?????? I don't even know where the governor lives:o :rolleyes:

Your guess is as good as mine. An email to the gov? Wonder how far that will go......

[Miulang]

It would. Do you or anyone have any idea how to go about it? I'm good at the details of the thing and I think I could get a few profs on board at UH (I think....) but what to do next?????? I don't even know where the governor lives:o :rolleyes:

Acousticlady: Try looking over here (http://www.htdc.org/businessdev.asp)...you know the Maui Research and Technology Center in Kihei? Well, they do some incubation of promising projects there. You might also be able to qualify for some State funding.;) You have several things going for you, not the least of which is that you're a minority (woman). I'm on their mailing list and somehow also got on their venture capital mailing list, too. Good luck.

Miulang

[acousticlady]

Acousticlady: Try looking over here (http://www.htdc.org/businessdev.asp)...you know the Maui Research and Technology Center in Kihei? Well, they do some incubation of promising projects there. You might also be able to qualify for some State funding.;) You have several things going for you, not the least of which is that you're a minority (woman). I'm on their mailing list and somehow also got on their venture capital mailing list, too. Good luck.

Miulang

Whoa....very interesting. Something I have not thought about. I just may look into it further. Thanks for the info.

[Palama Kid]

$3.79 for a half gallon Lactaid milk at Trader Joe's in Los Gatos.

[joshuatree]

Check out the wave hot spots for the US. Hawaii's got plenty. Also, check out other types of wave powered generators in the other 11 pics.

http://news.com.com/2300-11392_3-6202618-12.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

[timkona]

Ah yes, the Politics of NO. Populated by folks who think fossil fuels are destroying the planet, while they drive to the next meeting to protest ocean wave technology, or solar arrays covering the landscape, or whatever the "cause-du-jour" happens to be.

Weened during Vietnam. Graduate training during the 70's environmental movement. After 40 years of vigorous training, the only word they have mastered is NO.

Meanwhile, Generation X knows who is at fault for the crumbling infrastructure plaguing America. We are waiting patiently for the Boomers to die. It's getting close. Then we will start building things again.

[DKP]

Is it still underutilized? I thought I'd heard a report that there were more takers then used oil.

True. They were importing some used oil from Cali (?) was it? None of that would be necessary if more restaurants participated. I think in that sense, it's an underutilized technology. Then they'd have enough for much of the OTS bus fleet, and less to deal with at landfills. When I was working there, it kinda sucked having to turn away new customers who wanted large orders...but it turned some on to producing their own in backyards with community waste. A bunch of people are doing it on the North Shore now.

[DKP]

Meanwhile, Generation X knows who is at fault for the crumbling infrastructure plaguing America. We are waiting patiently for the Boomers to die. It's getting close. Then we will start building things again.

Not to mention...reversing Harry J. Anslinger's 'legacy' ;) :D :D









'...and I will advertise it'

[Leo Lakio]

Not to mention...reversing Harry J. Anslinger's 'legacy'Well - can't blame him on the Boomers - he was long before that generation.
Meanwhile, Generation X knows who is at fault for the crumbling infrastructure plaguing America. We are waiting patiently for the Boomers to die. It's getting close. Then we will start building things again.Why wait, Tim? GenX is old enough now to make the changes you'd like to see. If you wait until the Boomers are dead, you'll be too old to accomplish it - and GenNext will be pushing YOU out of the way. With your attitude, GenX will waste the opportunity to turn society around.

Or is it just easier to accuse others for things not going the way you'd like? We'll start calling it "the Politics of BLAME."