Myanmar: While the world watches

[glossyp]

the brave people of Myanmar fight against a military regime that has ruled with real force and brutality for decades seeking their dream of democracy. Peaceful resistance turned to a blood bath when security forces moved in; Buddhist monks, ordinary citizens and at least one foreign journalist (Kenji Nagai) are amongst those shot or beaten to death. The world watches, the politicians pontificate and where is the UN?

[scrivener]

In the mid- to late-nineties, I really believed this kind of thing is what our military is for, in this post-coldwar America. "Peace-keeping," they called it in the Sudan and in eastern Europe.

Even in this post-9/11 America, I think this is the nobler cause, and much more worthy of our resources than what's going on in the Middle East. glossyp, I know you and I have disagreed about the ongoing war in Iraq, but do we agree that when common people stand up against oppressive governments, we of all nations should be there?

I do not know how, of course, we could get involved NOW, with our reserves already stretched thin, but man. Something should be done, not only in Myanmar but in a few other places in the world.

[joshuatree]

In the mid- to late-nineties, I really believed this kind of thing is what our military is for, in this post-coldwar America. "Peace-keeping," they called it in the Sudan and in eastern Europe.

Even in this post-9/11 America, I think this is the nobler cause, and much more worthy of our resources than what's going on in the Middle East. glossyp, I know you and I have disagreed about the ongoing war in Iraq, but do we agree that when common people stand up against oppressive governments, we of all nations should be there?

I do not know how, of course, we could get involved NOW, with our reserves already stretched thin, but man. Something should be done, not only in Myanmar but in a few other places in the world.

Getting China onboard would be key. They hold an influence over that country.

[Miulang]

Sadly, the junta has cut the main internet connections (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22501626-2703,00.html)to Myanmar in an effort to keep information about the events occurring in the streets of Yangon from the rest of the world.

Video slidehow (http://article.wn.com/view/2007/09/28/Severing_of_internet_link_censors_killings/)of events in Yangon and worldwide related to this attack on human rights.

Another news source from Myanmar (http://www.myanmarnews.net/)

Miulang

[Miulang]

More pictures and reports (http://ko-htike.blogspot.com/)from a Burmese blogger who is currently living in London but who has been getting phone reports from people in the streets of Yangon.

Miulang

[woodman]

I would like to see the people get what THEY want, even if it is not to the satisfaction of government or corporate interests.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Getting China onboard would be key. They hold an influence over that country.

China seems to be near the root of many a despotic regime in the SE Asia region, and that fact is enough to keep the US at bay. We won't kick NKorea's ass because of China, same goes for Myanmar, we won't help out Taiwan ensure their sovereignty against China and on and on...why is that? Does the theory go that we have as much a chance at besting China as we do creating a democracy in Iraq (or finding OBL)?

[joshuatree]

Does the theory go that we have as much a chance at besting China as we do creating a democracy in Iraq (or finding OBL)?

Well, we indirectly went head to head against China during the Korean War and that was fought to a stalemate so I think that lingers in our minds. However, even though both sides play hard ball to the media, I think there is a slow convergence of interests as China did want to defuse the NK situation and things are looking positive now there. China also appears to be pushing Myanmar for reforms so maybe another positive sign. Ever since China signed up for capitalism, they seemed more concern about stability of markets.

[glossyp]

In the mid- to late-nineties, I really believed this kind of thing is what our military is for, in this post-coldwar America. "Peace-keeping," they called it in the Sudan and in eastern Europe.

Even in this post-9/11 America, I think this is the nobler cause, and much more worthy of our resources than what's going on in the Middle East. glossyp, I know you and I have disagreed about the ongoing war in Iraq, but do we agree that when common people stand up against oppressive governments, we of all nations should be there?

I do not know how, of course, we could get involved NOW, with our reserves already stretched thin, but man. Something should be done, not only in Myanmar but in a few other places in the world.
I do subscribe to the philosophy espoused by Woodrow Wilson that part of America's role in the world was to make it safe for democracy to take root. In retrospect one sees that many of the nations we were at war with have adopted some form democracy - and many of those countries are places where nay sayers claimed that the people there were not suited for democracy. Do we have a responsibility to stand with people willing to resist and die fighting against a regime such as in Burma? I believe we do. Will it happen? Probably not. Nonetheless, I remain a firm believer that democracy is, as Alexis de Tocqueville wrote, "universal and irresistable", to freedom loving people wherever they may live.

Here is an excellent essay written by a professor at Tufts University that compares Wilson and Bush and their worldviews plus a good dose of Truman and Kennedy. He articulates my point of view of what the position of our nation should be in regards to supporting the people of Burma. Bush's bid for a Wilsonesque legacy (http://fletcher.tufts.edu/news/2005/02/lee.shtml). Note that it was written more than two years ago.

[Miulang]

I do subscribe to the philosophy espoused by Woodrow Wilson that part of America's role in the world was to make it safe for democracy to take root. In retrospect one sees that many of the nations we were at war with have adopted some form democracy - and many of those countries are places where nay sayers claimed that the people there were not suited for democracy. Do we have a responsibility to stand with people willing to resist and die fighting against a regime such as in Burma? I believe we do. Will it happen? Probably not. Nonetheless, I remain a firm believer that democracy is, as Alexis de Tocqueville wrote, "universal and irresistable", to freedom loving people wherever they may live.

Here is an excellent essay written by a professor at Tufts University that compares Wilson and Bush and their worldviews plus a good dose of Truman and Kennedy. He articulates my point of view of what the position of our nation should be in regards to supporting the people of Burma. Bush's bid for a Wilsonesque legacy (http://fletcher.tufts.edu/news/2005/02/lee.shtml). Note that it was written more than two years ago.
I agree with you that we should be supporting the dissidents, but where you and I diverge somewhat in opinion is that once the opportunity arises, the US should not dictate the kind of "democracy" that a newly free country should have.

Our past foreign policy (and bucks) have been used to foment the change by giving the resistance the financial backing it needs to overcome the incumbent regime. Unfortunately, time and time again, those initial good faith efforts have been turned against us (too many countries to list here where that has happened in the past).

In the case of Myanmar, not only are there issues with the monks and the general population, but for years and years (actually since 1949), there has been an ongoing campaign of oppression by the government against the Karen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people) people. (Some of us on HT know an American who spent a few years in Myanmar helping run the resistance with this group, but as an NGO Christian missionary and not a representative of the US government).

More (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/28/news/myanmar.php) about the Karen rebels. One of their most famous leaders was a young boy of of 12 or 13 who led a group of young people to fight against the Burmese government.

Sadly, I don't know how we can help and yet not be taken advantage of down the road.:(

Miulang

[glossyp]

I agree with you that we should be supporting the dissidents, but where you and I diverge somewhat in opinion is that once the opportunity arises, the US should not dictate the kind of "democracy" that a newly free country should have.
I did not say that there is only one kind of democracy. I did state that former war enemies have "adopted some form of democracy". Hardly an endorsement of dictating a specific model.

Sadly, I don't know how we can help and yet not be taken advantage of down the road.:(
Perhaps this is just part and parcel of change and should not be a reason to remove ourselves from the fray. Not every case of assisting the downtrodden has resulted in active emnity.

[Miulang]

Hmmm...probably another reason (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MYANMAR_FUELING_THE_JUNTA?SITE=HIHAD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)why the US has to take special interest in what's going on in Myanmar...

Just last Sunday - when marches led by Buddhist monks drew thousands in Myanmar's biggest cities - Indian Oil Minister Murli Deora was in the country's capital for the signing of oil and gas exploration contracts between state-controlled ONGC Videsh Ltd. and Myanmar's military rulers.

The signing ceremony was an example of how important Myanmar's oil and gas resources have become in an energy-hungry world. Even as Myanmar's military junta intensifies its crackdown on pro-democracy protests, oil companies are jostling for access to the country's largely untapped natural gas and oil fields that activists say are funding a repressive regime.

...Altogether, nine foreign oil companies are involved in 16 onshore blocks exploring for oil, enhancing recovery from older fields, or trying to reactivate fields where production has been suspended, according to Total's Web site. A block is an area onshore or offshore in which an oil company is granted exploratory and discovery rights.

Offshore, nine companies, including Total, Petronas, PTTEP, South Korea's Daewoo International Corp., Chinese state-run companies China National Offshore Oil Corp., or CNOOC, and China Petroleum & Chemical Corp., or Sinopec, are exploring or developing 29 blocks, Total said.

Despite economic sanctions against Myanmar by the United States and the European Union, Total continues to operate the Yadana gas field, and Chevron Corp. has a 28 percent stake through its takeover of Unocal. Existing investments were exempt from the investment ban.

Both Total and Chevron broadly defended their business in the nation.



Miulang

[Miulang]

Hmmm...probably another reason (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MYANMAR_FUELING_THE_JUNTA?SITE=HIHAD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)why the US has to take special interest in what's going on in Myanmar...



Miulang
Total, mentioned in the story above, is a French company. Here is a statement on their website about the current situation in Myanmar:

In light of recent events unfolding in Myanmar, Total would like to restate its position regarding its presence in the country.
September 26, 2007

First of all, the Group would like to express its deep concern over the present situation, which it is monitoring very closely. Under these particular circumstances, Total is deploying heightened vigilance to ensure the safety of its employees. We hope that the current tensions facing the country will quickly subside and that solutions will be found in order to safeguard the population and protect human rights.

We are convinced that through our presence we are helping to improve the daily lives of tens of thousands of people who benefit from our social and economic initiatives. By promoting responsible behavior, our local teams can serve as a model for business and political leaders looking for ways to address the country's human rights issues.

We would like to thank all those who have encouraged us to pursue our actions to help the local people and enhance their well-being through the defense of common values. To those who ask us to leave the country, we reply that far from solving Myanmar's problems, a forced withdrawal would only lead to our replacement by other operators probably less committed to the ethical principles guiding all our initiatives. Our departure could cause the population even greater hardship and is thus an unacceptable risk.

Jean-François Lassalle,
Vice-President Public Affairs,Total Exploration & Production





And Chevron, the American company, doesn't even list Myanmar as a county that they are drilling in (they do list Thailand and Cambodia (http://www.chevron.com/operations/Thailand.aspx), however).


Miulang

[glossyp]

An interesting essay that examines China's role (they are the principal outside beneficiaries of the natural resources, etc. of Myanmar) and why the Chinese might be motivated to apply pressure to the junta. Myanmar at a Crossroads (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/200710/137_11021.html) from the Korea Times.

[waioli kai]

US's Blackwater mercenary soldiers kill a dozen unarmed civilians in a routine daily action by Blackwater forces in Iraq as the Myanmar military kills ten protestors during days of marches by thousands of protestors and which story gets top billing in the U.S. media? The one Bush wants to talk about.

[glossyp]

US's Blackwater mercenary soldiers kill a dozen unarmed civilians in a routine daily action by Blackwater forces in Iraq as the Myanmar military kills ten protestors during days of marches by thousands of protestors and which story gets top billing in the U.S. media? The one Bush wants to talk about.
Clearly nothing exists in the world for you except Bush hatred and everything and anything pales in comparison. Lucky you - you stay safe and can say whatever you like without concern for any repercussions. Never mind that Bush will do nothing in either instance to make a positive difference.

[Miulang]

The Burmese civilians are just an impediment to the scramble to access the natural gas (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/world/asia/01cnd-asia.html?hp)and other resources of the country of Myanmar.

Natural gas from Myanmar, which generates 20 percent of all electricity in Thailand, keeps the lights on in Bangkok. The gas, which this year will cost about $2.8 billion, is the largest single export for Myanmar’s otherwise impoverished and cash-strapped economy.

Thailand’s gas imports highlight the dilemma facing China, India, Singapore and Malaysia, among other countries, as they vie for Myanmar’s hardwoods, minerals, gems — and access to its market of 47 million people.

...From the perspective of Myanmar’s generals, the gas purchases by Thailand are only the beginning of what promises to be a significant infusion of cash. Myanmar will soon announce the winner of a concession in the even larger Shwe gas fields off the coast of western Myanmar. Companies from India, China and South Korea have put in bids for those contracts.

...The cash has allowed the generals who run Myanmar to buy weapons from China and helicopters from India, order a nuclear test reactor from Russia and construct their new capital north of Myanmar’s main city, Yangon.

...Last year, Myanmar sold $2 billion worth of gas to Thailand, which amounted to more than 40 percent of the country’s total exports for that year. Largely because of the gas deal, Thailand is Myanmar’s biggest trade partner, not China, as is widely reported.


From Ko-Htike's blog today: reports that 500 monks are being detained and are refusing their daily meal that is provided by their guards. Civilians trying to bring the monks food are being turned away, which means effectively that the monks are being starved.

Monday, 1 October 2007

Please Help Monks!!!!!!!!!!Reports emerging from Rangoon indicate that the temporary detentioncentres based in Yangon Institute of Technology and General Instituteof Technology (GTI) is currently detaining 500 hundred monks.The monks are refusing to accept Sune (Alms food.....food offering given to monkby layperson just before 12 noon as main meal of the day) from themilitary junta. The local population approached these detentioncentres to offer food and they have been turned away by theauthorities. Technically, the monks are unintentionally on hugerstrike.We contacted the International Red Cross's (ICRC) office and UNHCR inRangoon. The UN's office refused to help and ICRC bucked theresponsibility on their head office in Geneva.Please write or Phone to ICRC, e-mail Foreign Secretary and Prime MinisterGordon Brown.

Miulang

[glossyp]

The Burmese civilians are just an impediment to the scramble to access the natural gas (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/world/asia/01cnd-asia.html?hp)and other resources of the country of Myanmar...

"Natural gas from Myanmar, which generates 20 percent of all electricity in Thailand, keeps the lights on in Bangkok. The gas, which this year will cost about $2.8 billion, is the largest single export for Myanmar’s otherwise impoverished and cash-strapped economy.

Thailand’s gas imports highlight the dilemma facing China, India, Singapore and Malaysia, among other countries, as they vie for Myanmar’s hardwoods, minerals, gems — and access to its market of 47 million people."
Miulang
So, are the citizens of Burma an impediment or are they a potential market?
[Bold added by me.]

Current reports from Burma indicate that the death toll may be much larger then what was reported earlier. UK Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=484903).

[Miulang]

So, are the citizens of Burma an impediment or are they a potential market?
[Bold added by me.]

Current reports from Burma indicate that the death toll may be much larger then what was reported earlier. UK Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=484903).
They and the democracy movement are an impediment to the junta. They are an opportunity to the Chinese, Thais, S. Koreans, etc. And the junta has caused the death of hundreds (more likely thousands) of ethnic Karens (http://burmamission.org/health_crisis_info.htm)since 1949.

Ethnic groups residing in Eastern Burma bear the brunt of the Junta’s oppressive policy. The Karen people are one such group. The SPDC routinely raids Karen villages, burn crops, steal livestock, force men and boys to serve as laborers. Rape of Karen women and girls is a common occurrence.As a result, a number of Karen have fled to Thailand, the jungles or isolated camps inside Burma. Health conditions in this region are at disaster levels, according to various reports by the United Nations. An estimated 1 million people are displaced into Thailand and another 1 million are displaced internally within Burma.

In 2004 and 2006, international agencies, such as the World Health Organization, documented the dire conditions faced by the Karen.

-1 in 12 Karen mothers die from child-birth, compared to 1 in 900 for Thai mothers
-1 in 5 Karen children will die by age 5 compared to 1 in 50 in neighboring Thailand


Miulang

[glossyp]

Thanks for the clarification.

The innocent blood on the hands of the junta goes back a long, long time. The last serious attempt for democracy was just about 20 years ago and that was brutally ended. The death toll amongst the Karens is most likely in the thousands (as you noted). I think many of us hope or hoped that this time around the modern media would help to communicate the brutality with a reach that it hadn't in earlier times. Wishful thinking, especially when one considers Darfur.

[Miulang]

Thanks for the clarification.

The innocent blood on the hands of the junta goes back a long, long time. The last serious attempt for democracy was just about 20 years ago and that was brutally ended. The death toll amongst the Karens is most likely in the thousands (as you noted). I think many of us hope or hoped that this time around the modern media would help to communicate the brutality with a reach that it hadn't in earlier times. Wishful thinking, especially when one considers Darfur.
I agree. There seems to be no end to the despotic regimes worldwide who are causing so many people so much pain.

In fact, just last week, after many years of silence, Baby Doc Duvalier (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2176967,00.html)sent out a message of contrition to the world for any harm his regime did while he was in power in Haiti. I think the only reason why he did it is because he is now penniless in Paris and is looking for some sympathy from among the people he oppressed. I think he should just rot in the hell of those who choose to profit off the misery of others.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Sylvester Stallone (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22517905-5005961,00.html), while filming a new Rambo movie on the border between Myanmar and Thailand, witnessed the aftermath of the atrocities going on in the Myanmar countryside and wants to help bring more attention to the events happening in that country.

HOLLYWOOD star Sylvester Stallone and his Rambo sequel movie crew have witnessed human atrocities while filming along the Burmese border.

"I witnessed the aftermath - survivors with legs cut off and all kinds of land mine injuries, maggot-infested wounds and ears cut off. We saw many elephants with blown off legs. We hear about Vietnam and Cambodia and this was more horrific,'' Stallone told Associated Press.



Miulang

[salmoned]

Sly? More horrific because he saw it personally, not necessarily because it actually IS more horrific (else it's more horrific because it's NOW and not 'back then'). I don't find this kind of quote adds anything to the discussion.

One thing I would not wish to see is some outside agency coming in to forcefully disarm the junta - the 'peaceful' protests should be respected, not disrespected by using means not sanctioned by those protesting.

[Miulang]

An explanation of how the protests in Yangon began, as reported by two of the organizers (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/25/AR2007102502902.html?hpid=sec-world), now in exile in Thailand.

Miulang