Pit Bulls?

[greentara]

Going on my third month living on Kaua’i, far exceeding my expectations. Of course there are challenges, (just killed another centipede in my yard today~and had to get the "bee guy" to drive the bees out of the roof) but all in all I'm loving it! One thing I was kind of wondering about...why do so many people here have pit bulls? I can't even walk down the beautiful road I live on with out some wild eyed dog running down the driveway barking like crazy. I feel like I'm strolling through a ghetto in SF. Went to my hula halau and took the wrong drive way the first time I went there ~ I almost got attacked by damn dogs, Kumu had to come out and drive them off. Went to the river to swim across the road from my house and there were guys there with pit bulls in cages in the back of their truck. They were totally cool and friendly, but the dogs looked really menacing. Why do people feel the need for such vicious animals in such a beautiful pristine environment ~ such a dichotomy Pit bulls and Aloha??????? Unless Kahuna Road is really a “Ganja” growing district and people are protecting their crops I don't seen the need for such "protection". ;)

[CranBeree]

hmmm...those dogs may LOOK menacing and sometimes they are, but for
the most part if their owners are RESPONSIBLE and raised their dogs right, you shouldn't be fearful of them. in any even if it is a family dog, regardless of what the breed is they will instinctively protect their property.

i used to have my 150 lb rottweiler sit next to my baby while at the park/beach/outdoor dining areas and when a stranger would come next to her he would just look up, decide if he didn't like you and if he didn't give you a warning/back off growl. if on the other hand he did like you and i felt the same way, he'd just lay there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/DiverDown/MakoaMemory.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/DiverDown/ChazzKekoa.jpg



we currently have a pitbull mix and he is the most loving and mellow dog.

all im saying is before you blame the BREED, take a good look at the owners.

[greentara]

What a cute little girl...All I'm saying is a person should be able to walk down the road and nor be intimidated by dogs, yea protect the property but leave people alone when they are not ON the property. So the question is why that particular breed? :confused:

[Babooze]

Pitbulls have been a very popular breed here for a very long time and probebly always will be. Dispite the menacing looks and undeserved reputation they are a very gental and loyal breed. The dogs you saw in the cages in the trucks are more than likely pitbull crossed with various other breeds used for hunting pigs. My guess as to the popularity of using them as guard dogs is not to many people would be intimidated by Beagles or a Pomeranian.

[LikaNui]

The dogs you saw in the cages in the trucks are more than likely pitbull crossed with various other breeds used for hunting pigs. Exactly correct.

My guess as to the popularity of using them as guard dogs is not to many people would be intimidated by Beagles or a Pomeranian. Exactly hilarious!
:D

[lavagal]

After being introduced to the Carl books, and after becoming friends with a Rottweiler that belonged to Tony Moniz's mom over on Pau Street, I would have to say Rottweilers are often raised as well-behaved, polite and caring dogs. (My goodness, this is my second praise dogs note in less than 24 hours!).

Carl (http://www.amazon.com/Carls-Afternoon-Park-Carl-Alexandra/dp/0374311048)books have very little text. They are beautiful books. Carl is often charged with babysitting tiny tots. It's a crack up!

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I grew up with them throughout my childhood. My father kept several at a time, believing that these were invaluable creatures. My husband does not like big dogs (having never been raised around them) but I would own them again.

They look scary, but are very loyal and smart animals, and if raised well, quite mellow.

[i-hungry]

I am scared of Pomeranians. Chihuahuas are scary too.

[Babooze]

I am scared of Pomeranians. Chihuahuas are scary too.

Some people are afraid of Cockroaches .......... I don't think anybody would keep them as guard animals. :rolleyes: :D

[tikiyaki]

I have to point out that the thing with pitbulls is this...

It's not what they will or won't do, it's what they're capable of doing.

Of course, there are people that train them to be mean, and there are ones that just train them to be gentle, loving house dogs. What the problem for me is that they were bred for fighting, so they have that instinct bred into them already. They have that locking jaw, and fight 'til death instinct already bred into them. That's the difference between a pit and a Rottweiler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottweiler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Bull

That being said, I have a Rottweiler / Beagle mix, and really love Rotties.

Pit Bulls : I'm weary of them. But that's just me

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/tikiyaki/Doggies2.jpg

[nikki]

I'm deathly afraid of them. I want to get a dog, but I'd be afraid to walk them in my neighborhood. In fact, that's the top reason I won't get a dog. There might be a dog fight and I won't be able to do anything.

[tikiyaki]

I'm deathly afraid of them. I want to get a dog, but I'd be afraid to walk them in my neighborhood. In fact, that's the top reason I won't get a dog. There might be a dog fight and I won't be able to do anything.

That's my biggest issue with Pit Bulls...It's the fighting with other dogs...mine, yours, everyone else's....I know they're pretty ok with humans, I just get nervous whenever I see one and I have my dog with me.

[greentara]

I guess dealing with the Pit Bull issue is something I will have to face and get over. I don’t know it the story made it here to HI but I knew the upstairs neighbor of Nicholas Faibish the little boy that was killed by his family’s Pit Bulls. I guess it’s simply another demon to face and learn a life’s lesson. My experience with the breed has not been a good one. I can also site other examples of incidents involving this breed but I also know that animals like children are innocent victims of their environment. Thanks for the information, I have never felt like I needed “protection” form an animal but who knows why people feel that they need this security for their home and families. :confused:

[sinjin]

I grew up with them throughout my childhood. My father kept several at a time, believing that these were invaluable creatures. My husband does not like big dogs (having never been raised around them) but I would own them again.

They look scary, but are very loyal and smart animals, and if raised well, quite mellow.Did your father value them for their ability to protect or hunt or fight? My family has had them as well but I sometimes feel about them what I feel about a loaded weapon in the house. And even if I supported keeping a gun in the house why would one need a .44 Magnum? Moreover, could the choice of .44 Magnum or Pit Bull say something about the owner or their worldview? KWIM?

[Pua'i Mana'o]

we lived in the rural forest. There were feral pig problems. If there were outlaws around, who could hear us scream?

Those 'bulls were our protectors.

[Karen]

Pit bulls are as good or as bad as the people that raise them. My 23yr. old has opened my eyes to this. She wears tshirts that say things like "Punish the Deed, Not the Breed" and I do believe I heartily agree,and am starting to wake up to this.

[kamuelakea]

I agree with the loaded gun in the home comment. Pit Bulls and the other killer breeds have been BRED to attack and kill for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. Just as weapons have their place, so do attack dogs. But to keep them as pets, and especially as pets around children, I think is insane.

I don't know exactly what it says about the personality of the owners of vicious attack dogs but it must mean something is missing or different.

Just yesterday, a Florida woman was killed by her very own nice, gentle, friendly, wouldn't hurt a fly pit bulls.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071002/BREAKINGNEWS/71002044/1086/rss07

Bottom line is that I think all dog owners should have to have insurance against damage that their dog might cause. Insurance companies are in it for profit so they will set premiums based upon risk. All of you who claim that pit bulls, rottwielers, bull mastiffs, etc are being discriminated against will see in dollars the truth. Pit bull insurance would be sky high. Not because they bite the most because all dogs bite, but because they injure, maim and kill the most often.

Junk yard security dog? Great. But family pet? Irresponsible.

I dare you attack dog supporters to Google Pit Bull Kills and thumb through the first 10 pages. The stories are endless. Then try poodle kills, or dalmation kills or golden retriever kills. Very different search results.

[na alii]

As the saying goes "There is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners."

[kamuelakea]

As the saying goes "There is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners."

You probably right. The owners have been bred badly for 1000 years as well.

All pit bull owners who have a pet at home and not a guard dog are bad owners to me.

Good thing is that owners are going to jail nowadays for the acts of their vicious dogs.

[CranBeree]

our home insurance never went up due to us having a rottie or pit.
i think part of the reason for it is that our agent is a dog owner.

even when we were renting previously and we told the landlord we had a rottie, she was fine with it. everyone will have a perception on these type of dogs be it good or bad, but unless you have lived with one and raised them right , you truly wouldn't know how good they can be.

pit bulls and rotties get a bad rap due to irresponsible owners.

and then there's also this

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/MistakenIdentity/WrongId.htm

something to chew on: http://www.understand-a-bull.com/PitbullInformation/Urbanlegends.htm

but take a look at this too.
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/HeroicPitties/HeroicPitties.htm

[SusieMisajon]

The Pit Bill....a young man's phallic extension.

[kamuelakea]

pit bulls and rotties get a bad rap due to irresponsible owners.

Then how come the irresponsible owners of poodles and chihuahuas never seem to be able to trigger their dogs into murderous rages?

ANSWER: Because it aint genetically bred into those animals. It is genetically bred into the attack dogs. They may not express that gene 99.9% of the time, but when they do, your neck or the neck of a child is going to have a locked jaw clamping down on the jugulars.

Also, the famous description by people AFTER dogs attack is that they were the nicest, gentlest creatures in the world,........... prior to killing the neighbor.

There are 1000s of dog breeds. No reason to allow killer dog breeds into homes and communities. I still say these owners have some internal psychological weakness that they are trying to compensate for. Funny thing is that I've never been able to put my finger on it. Vicious dog owners appear externally to be as diverse as any other group of dog owners. They do remind me of the little guys who need to own the monster trucks that require a ladder to enter.

[kamuelakea]

The Pit Bill....a young man's phallic extension.

While that is the obvious psych explanation, I haven't found it to be true. I know of as many female vicious dog owners as male. Many of the females very feminine and "normal".

[kamuelakea]

our home insurance never went up due to us having a rottie or pit.


Insurance people might correct me on this but I don't think they look at dogs when it comes to home owners insurance.

What I am suggesting is DOG INSURANCE. If mandated by law, guaranz the attack dog insurance would be many times more than the rest of the breeds.

[CranBeree]

Insurance people might correct me on this but I don't think they look at dogs when it comes to home owners insurance.

What I am suggesting is DOG INSURANCE. If mandated by law, guaranz the attack dog insurance would be many times more than the rest of the breeds.

um, when getting our home insurance, our agent asked us if we had dogs and we told them yes and what breed.

we found out later that most homeowner's insurance will not cover if they have certain breeds of dogs, namely the rottweiler and pit bull. i don't have a link for you but hey try calling any insurance company and ask them if its true.

we have had pet insurance through our vet and the payments were the same as if he was a chihuahua.

[CranBeree]

Then how come the irresponsible owners of poodles and chihuahuas never seem to be able to trigger their dogs into murderous rages?

ANSWER: Because it aint genetically bred into those animals. It is genetically bred into the attack dogs. They may not express that gene 99.9% of the time, but when they do, your neck or the neck of a child is going to have a locked jaw clamping down on the jugulars.

Also, the famous description by people AFTER dogs attack is that they were the nicest, gentlest creatures in the world,........... prior to killing the neighbor.

There are 1000s of dog breeds. No reason to allow killer dog breeds into homes and communities. I still say these owners have some internal psychological weakness that they are trying to compensate for. Funny thing is that I've never been able to put my finger on it. Vicious dog owners appear externally to be as diverse as any other group of dog owners. They do remind me of the little guys who need to own the monster trucks that require a ladder to enter.

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/PitbullInformation/Urbanlegends.htm

[sinjin]

I must mention that a guy convicted of domestic abuse, aggravated assualt and/or other assorted violent crimes cannot own a handgun but may own a half dozen pit bulls. Somehow I wouldn't be troubled if his passion were for pomeranians.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

[CranBeree]

I must mention that a guy convicted of domestic abuse, aggravated assualt and/or other assorted violent crimes cannot own a handgun but may own a half dozen pit bulls. Somehow I wouldn't be troubled if his passion were for pomeranians.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf


just because he can own them doesn't mean he's a RESPONSIBLE owner.

[sinjin]

just because he can own them doesn't mean he's a RESPONSIBLE owner.So what to do?

[SusieMisajon]

So what to do?
Ban them completely and let the breed die out.

[sinjin]

Insurance people might correct me on this but I don't think they look at dogs when it comes to home owners insurance.
"If you own a toothless Chihuahua, your insurer probably doesnt care. Buy a pit bull, Rottweiler or wolf hybrid, however, and you may find your insurance gets more expensive -- if you can persuade your insurer to cover you at all.

Dog bites cost insurers about $310 million a year, and an increasing number of companies have a blacklist of breeds they wont accept or charge more to cover. Pit bulls, which lead the Centers for Disease Control list of deadly breeds, are particularly unwelcome. Other troublesome breeds include German shepherds, Rottweilers, wolf hybrids, huskies, malamutes and Dobermans.

If your dog has ever bitten anyone, regardless of its breed, youre probably going to have trouble getting coverage as well -- particularly if it was an unprovoked attack.

Each insurer has different policies, though, so you may be able to find affordable coverage if you shop around. You also can ask the insurer to exclude your dog, meaning that youll pay for any damage it does.

If you have a dog that bites or lunges at strangers, however, get rid of it. The risks to your pocketbook and your neighbors are too great."
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Insurance/Insureyourhome/P35342.asp

[CranBeree]

Ban them completely and let the breed die out.



susie, this by far has to be one of the most ignorant comments you ever posted.

[CranBeree]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Will_your_homeowner's_insurance_go_up_if_you_buy_a _pit_bull
Dogs
If you own a toothless Chihuahua, your insurer probably doesnt care. Buy a pit bull, Rottweiler or wolf hybrid, however, and you may find your insurance gets more expensive -- if you can persuade your insurer to cover you at all.

Dog bites cost insurers about $310 million a year, and an increasing number of companies have a blacklist of breeds they wont accept or charge more to cover. Pit bulls, which lead the Centers for Disease Control list of deadly breeds, are particularly unwelcome. Other troublesome breeds include German shepherds, Rottweilers, wolf hybrids, huskies, malamutes and Dobermans.

If your dog has ever bitten anyone, regardless of its breed, youre probably going to have trouble getting coverage as well -- particularly if it was an unprovoked attack.

Each insurer has different policies, though, so you may be able to find affordable coverage if you shop around. You also can ask the insurer to exclude your dog, meaning that youll pay for any damage it does.

If you have a dog that bites or lunges at strangers, however, get rid of it. The risks to your pocketbook and your neighbors are too great.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Insurance/Insureyourhome/P35342.asp


we have been homeowners since 2003. and so far our insurance has never gone up and they were well aware that so far we have had both rotties and pit bulls in our home. our dogs have never bitten anybody. they have however ON COMMAND will scare the crap out of you. as in WATCH who Makoa will look at you with evil eyeballs and WARN which means he will give you a growl, he was trained to disarm a weapon but not hurt the person, but if i told him BE NICE he would lay there and ignore the hell out of you. and he has never bit anyone. i will admit i got nervous when i had my baby. i didn't know how he was going to react at first but he loved her and would let her lay on him and there were times im sure his patience ran low when as a baby she would throw the bottle at his head and all he would do is sigh and pad over to another room.

our current pit is on the mellow side...i'll even offer for you to spend some time with him and see if he can change your mind about the breed.

as for IRRESPONSIBLE owners, well what the hell can you do, there's people out there that are irresponsible parents.

[1stwahine]

Ban them completely and let the breed die out.

Susie, that is mean and uncalled for. Go sleep.:rolleyes:

[sinjin]

susie, this by far has to be one of the most ignorant comments you ever posted.Actually Susie is in step with even PETA on this one:
http://www.peta.org/about/hottopic007.asp

[sinjin]

as for IRRESPONSIBLE owners, well what the hell can you do, there's people out there that are irresponsible parents.
You can disarm them and make rearming themselves expensive and difficult.

...i'll even offer for you to spend some time with him and see if he can change your mind about the breed..As I said before, my family has kept these animals. I am very familiar with them. They are prone to aggression towards other dogs and many owners are not capable of stopping their dogs once excited. They will turn on a human if one attempts to intervene. Your pride in their ability to frighten is at the heart of the issue.

[Leo Lakio]

there's people out there that are irresponsible parents.Ban them completely and let the breed die out.Tempting juxtaposition...:eek:

[CranBeree]

I guess we should breed out the ignorant people and let them die out ....

[CranBeree]

You can disarm them and make rearming themselves expensive and difficult.

As I said before, my family has kept these animals. I am very familiar with them. They are prone to aggression towards other dogs and many owners are not capable of stopping their dogs once excited. They will turn on a human if one attempts to intervene. Your pride in their ability to frighten is at the heart of the issue.

my pride is in the fact that i can control my dog and not the other way around. ive had rotties for over 14 years, pits on and off for about 7 years.


not ONCE have they bit on command or even just for the hell of it.

[CranBeree]

http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/nyc-pets-breed,0,191067.column

read all the way through.

[Kungpao]

The reason that Bullies have become such a dangerous breed is due to Irresponsible breeding.

Backyard breeders who breed dogs to fight chose bullies and rotties to fight due to their high threshold for pain. They are often mal-treated to make them angry so that they'll fight.

When fighting dogs are born, often times, they are weaned away from their mothers and litter mates WAY too early. This does several things one of which is that the dogs never "learn" bite force.

When puppies are with their litter, they often bite each other until the other pup yelps. that's an indicator for the biting dog that they've bitten too hard. Fighting dogs do NOT know how hard is too hard. Which is the BB's goal with these dogs. High threshold for pain accompanied with a hard bite force is idealic in the dog fighting world.

The term PIT came from the days of when people used to put their bully breeds in a "pit" with rats for a given amount of time. However many rats the dog killed/caught in that amount of time gave the score for the sport. Bull breeds being part of the Terrier category, they naturally hunted rats pretty well.

Bullies need LOTS of attention from their owners to be a happy, well adjusted dog. Unfortunately, most owners feel it's ok to leave their bully outside and chained up all day by itself. This leads to the dogs going crazy. They WANT attention. They DEMAND attention.

People forget that dogs are animals and that regardless of how humans train them, there will always be certain animals that will be seen as horrible creatures. Like any other breed of dog that has become popular, bad breeding/inbreeding cause lots of genetic defects with the dogs. Same thing happened with Cocker Spaniels. Read about their temperment's here (http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americancocker.htm).

The argument that you don't see small dogs reported as killing anyone is ignorant. I mean c'mon. The bigger the animal, the more damage they can do. That's like having Conan the Barbarian and Willow compete for how many lions they can kill with their bare hands. Sure they'll both do some damage but Conan will win. Ok... Ok.. lets be more realistic. My 18 lb cat with fangs that hang below his lower jaw and a cougar vs humans. Which one's gonna kill more?

Don't tell me that a chihuahua can't be vicious. I know one that is tremendously vicious. Why? Because it's owner allows it to be.

Read my situation in the How do you cope? (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=13734) thread. I loved my Sami and always will. Unfortunately for my wife and I, he had some very poor past experiences. The only reason that we've decided not to get another bully is because we wanted 2 dogs and we don't feel we could handle 2 dogs of that size.

[CranBeree]

thank you KP, you said it way better than i ever could.

[sinjin]

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/columnists/john_smallwood/20070824_John_Smallwood___Time_to_let_pit_bulls_fa de_into_history.html
Read all the way through.

[sinjin]

The term PIT came from the days of when people used to put their bully breeds in a "pit" with rats for a given amount of time. However many rats the dog killed/caught in that amount of time gave the score for the sport. Bull breeds being part of the Terrier category, they naturally hunted rats pretty well.I believe you don't have your facts straight. Bull dogs are related to mastiffs although crossing with terrier dogs has produced various "bull terriers" including the APBT. The "pit" in pit bull refers to the pit used for dog fighting.

[Kungpao]

I believe you don't have your facts straight. Bull dogs are related to mastiffs although crossing with terrier dogs has produced various "bull terriers" including the APBT. The "pit" in pit bull refers to the pit used for dog fighting.

I got my facts from the The American Pit Bull Registry (http://www.pitbullregistry.com/PitBull%20History.htm) so if they're wrong, Then by all means, I'll stand corrected about the history of them. I've read other things about their history in magazines such as they were originally bred to separate the bulls from the cows. (bullybreed magazine)

[SusieMisajon]

susie, this by far has to be one of the most ignorant comments you ever posted.
Many countries are trying to do just that, by requiring castration and sterilization, and disallowing any breeding.

[SusieMisajon]

susie, this by far has to be one of the most ignorant comments you ever posted.
PS Why is this an ignorant comment?

[SusieMisajon]

Susie, that is mean and uncalled for. Go sleep.:rolleyes:
It wasn't mean to be mean, Auntie. There are countries in the world who are trying to do something like this, one way or another...Britain has been trying for ages.

[Kungpao]

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/columnists/john_smallwood/20070824_John_Smallwood___Time_to_let_pit_bulls_fa de_into_history.html
Read all the way through.

Why are you showing us the OPINION of a SPORTS WRITER?!?

Breed Specific Laws are ineffective and costly. (http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cruelty_dogfighting_breedspeci fic) - The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty of Animals.

[SusieMisajon]

Sometimes, 'freedoms' are not such a hot idea.

[sinjin]

Why are you showing us the OPINION of a SPORTS WRITER?!?

Breed Specific Laws are ineffective and costly. (http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cruelty_dogfighting_breedspeci fic) - The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty of Animals.Simply to demonstrate that this issue has gone well beyond "some irresponsible owners". The entire breed has been righteously called into question IMO. Who knows what bloodline any individual dog is part of. At best it might just be a danger to everyone else's animals. At worst, well UNO.

[CranBeree]

so what does that have to do with the BREED????


here is a link that Pesh provided in another thread:
http://dogobedienceadvice.com/which_dog_breeds_are_most_aggressive.php

as i stated again, it is the irresponsibility of the owners that give these dogs a bad rap.

the difference between dogs and humans is that dogs cant plead insanity when they are reckless. hell then we should all call for sterilization for parents that give birth to kids that grow up to murder, rob, destroy etc. let's banish those people.

i could write a whole dissertation on why i don't believe pits/rotties deserve the bad rap that they get. sadly, there are people out there that perpetuate the myth that these dogs are no good. i disagree. i have them in my home, they have grown up with my children, shared their bed and was raised well. regardless of what is put out there via the media or the "haters" it won't change my mind about how i feel about these breeds.

[CranBeree]

Many countries are trying to do just that, by requiring castration and sterilization, and disallowing any breeding.

deleted..*sigh*

[kamuelakea]

my pride is in the fact that i can control my dog and not the other way around. ive had rotties for over 14 years, pits on and off for about 7 years. not ONCE have they bit on command or even just for the hell of it.


I think this statement illustrates the problem with attack dog owners and gives a hint as to the psychological "need" that drives people to select "dangerous" breeds of dogs as household pets.

"CONTROL" is the key. The need for power. Why do you need this power CranBerree? I have no idea.

And then the belief that you can "control" this "powerful" animal. This belief is as dangerous or more dangerous than the dog itself. The safest pit bull owner is the one who fears his dog and takes appropriate defensive actions. The owner who cockily says he can "control" his pit bull is the one who is more likely to end up hurting someone.

Of course every vicious dog owner whose dog killed or maimed someone or something thought they could control their dogs as well. Its always the other guys that are "irresponsible".

How many times have well intentioned individuals ended up hurting themselves by believing that they could alter animal instinct? The guy who befriended the bears in Alaska comes to mind. Eaten along with his girlfriend for dinner. The elephant trainer who thought he could control the elephant until it got tired and head butted him. Dead I think. Lions attacking their trainers. Too many to remember.

You BREED these attack traits into the dog and that takes many many generations. The only way to elliminate the desire to attack is to BREED them out and that would take just as many generations not just some tough guy who proclaims his or her power over the animal. It won't happen in one generation.

This is why we normally don't have lions, or bears or tigers as pets. Even if humans take them from birth, the genetic software to fight and hunt and kill is preloaded software and can return at any moment.

And to those who say its just because they are "big" dogs, that is not true and silly. You cannot say that you don't see an obvious difference between a pit bull (pure muscle, large jaw, powerful, defensive, active etc) and a Great Dane for example. (known as "gentle giants"). Its like comparing The Falaniko Noga with Jeremy Harris. There is a difference.

[CranBeree]

I think this statement illustrates the problem with attack dog owners and gives a hint as to the psychological "need" that drives people to select "dangerous" breeds of dogs as household pets.

"CONTROL" is the key. The need for power. Why do you need this power CranBerree? I have no idea.

And then the belief that you can "control" this "powerful" animal. This belief is as dangerous or more dangerous than the dog itself. The safest pit bull owner is the one who fears his dog and takes appropriate defensive actions. The owner is cockily says he can "control" his pit bull is the one who is more likely to end up hurting someone.

Of course every vicious dog owner whose dog killed or maimed someone or something thought they could control their dogs as well. Its always the other guys that are "irresponsible".

How many times have well intentioned individuals ended up hurting themselves by believing that they could alter animal instinct? The guy who befriended the bears in Alaska comes to mind. Eaten along with his girlfriend for dinner. The elephant trainer who thought he could control the elephant until it got tired and head butted him. Dead I think. Lions attacking their trainers. Too many to remember.

You BREED these attack traits into the dog and that takes many many generations. The only way to elliminate the desire to attack is to BREED them out and that would take just as many generations not just some tough guy who proclaims his or her power over the animal. It won't happen in one generation.

This is why we normally don't have lions, or bears or tigers as pets. Even if humans take them from birth, the genetic software to fight and hunt and kill is preloaded software and can return at any moment.

And to those who say its just because they are "big" dogs, that is not true and silly. You cannot say that you don't see an obvious difference between a pit bull (pure muscle, large jaw, powerful, defensive, active etc) and a Great Dane for example. (known as "gentle giants"). Its like comparing The Incredible Hulk with Audy Kimura. There is a difference.


ok because if i have a big 150 lb dog, hell i should be able to control him. if i have a dog and i do like big dogs, then it is in everyone's interest that i am able to control my dog. so i dont know where you get off that i need this "power" why don't you walk any dog to a dog park with a dog that YOU DON'T have control over, maybe then you'll understand what i said about the control and as Cesar Millan always says "Be the Pack Leader." Look, i don't care what you think of me as a person in having these dogs in my family, raising them with my kids etc cuz i know first hand how good these dogs are and at the end of the day all that matters is that we all live happy together, along with out 3 african greys....which our dogs leave alone.

[kamuelakea]

Heres the simplest problem that I see with attack dogs as pets and members of communities.

I am a male, 200lbs, former linebacker. I don't back down from a fight. But when I see these dogs in public or where ever, I get nervous. They make me scared. They look scary. They look like they want to take a bite out of me. They look at me like I slept with their girl friend. Call me paranoid but I didn't sleep with their girl friend. In fact, their girlfriends are all ugly.

What triggers dogs of all breeds to go on the offensive? FEAR. They can smell it. We all know that.

So if I am nervous, what about a 8 year old girl or most of the world that is smaller and physically weaker than me?

See there is no "CONTROL" you can exert to elliminate the "FEAR" that strangers around your dogs exude and there is no way for you to keep your dogs from smelling that fear. It's just mother nature in action.

I am not afraid of attack dogs because I'm predudice. I am afraid of them because I am smart enough to realize that I would much rather be bit by a chihuahua than a pit bull. Its survival.

Just remember that mean dog owners. People around you are afraid and your dogs smell it.

[DiverDown808]

My God people

Fear of the unknown is running rampant here. I know I'm not going to type something that's going to make some of you say "hey, he's right! I'm going to go out and buy a Pit Bull/Rottweiller right now!!!", but let me add my .02 cents anyway..........

Yes, I'm a firm believer of "there are no bad dogs, just bad owners" so let me focus on those idiots for a bit. Anyone who gets one of these dogs and tries to actually train these dogs to attack on command, and has absolutely NO experience doing so, is a bonehead. These inexperienced people now have that so-called 'loaded gun' running around the house now, and it's going to go off on them, family, or neighbors. Plus, you have a dog not fit to be a pet. You know, Hawaii is a small state and we all live on small islands. I haven't seen many Rotts here, but Pitts are all over the place. I can only imagine what the inbreeding is doing to their mental health. Again, there's your loaded gun. Unfortunately, I know from experience that some people get a Pitt/Rott just to make them seem more intimidating to other people. If you don't get a dog for a pet, then don't bother getting a dog. Now I have nothing against people getting watchdogs, but these dogs should be professionally trained and being 100% controlled by the owners.

Yes, 'control' is the key word when owning one of these "Red Zone" dogs. But you know, 'contol' is needed for ALL dogs. All dogs are pack animals, and all dogs are protective over their pack. Someone posted Then how come the irresponsible owners of poodles and chihuahuas never seem to be able to trigger their dogs into murderous rages?. Holy cow, these two breeds have to be the most visious dogs of ALL breeds. This Chihuahua mauled my sneaker just because I stepped on it's chew toy to hear it squeal. Of course, the obvious difference is that these dogs are only 1 to 3 pounds, compared to 100+ pounds of Rott or Pitt. Again, control is key for ALL dogs, so a responsible dog owner will have control of thier dog, no matter what the breed.

Now for some of you posters who are completely against these breeds of dogs, I can understand the fear for these dogs. Most of them really don't have that "happy" or "cute and cuddly" looking face that other breeds have, and if one was to come running at me showing his teeth, you bet your butt I'll be running the other way screaming like a girl (yes, I'm a 200 pound 6 foot guy too). In fact, my sister (who is with HPD) says the bad guys are more afraid of cops with dogs than cops with guns.

But anyway, all I ask is that you seriously think about who to point that accusing finger at. Are there visious Pitts and Rotts out there ? Of course. Are they like that because irresponsible owners reinforced that aggressive trait that all dogs have ? Of course. Are they like that because it's the nature of the breed ? I really don't think so. I've just had way too many experiences growing up with them. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad dog owners there.

So once you change your mind about Rotts and Pitts, give me a call and I'll intorduce you to the joys of free diving with Great White Sharks :)

DiverDown - Rottweiler & Pitbull owner

Note: It really sucks when you type a long-winded post, and then you have to log back on because you took so long to type......only to find out you lost everything you typed.......carry on

[CranBeree]

Heres the simplest problem that I see with attack dogs as pets and members of communities.

I am a male, 200lbs, former linebacker. I don't back down from a fight. But when I see these dogs in public or where ever, I get nervous. They make me scared. They look scary. They look like they want to take a bite out of me. They look at me like I slept with their girl friend. Call me paranoid but I didn't sleep with their girl friend. In fact, their girlfriends are all ugly.

What triggers dogs of all breeds to go on the offensive? FEAR. They can smell it. We all know that.

So if I am nervous, what about a 8 year old girl or most of the world that is smaller and physically weaker than me?

See there is no "CONTROL" you can exert to elliminate the "FEAR" that strangers around your dogs exude and there is no way for you to keep your dogs from smelling that fear. It's just mother nature in action.

I am not afraid of attack dogs because I'm predudice. I am afraid of them because I am smart enough to realize that I would much rather be bit by a chihuahua than a pit bull. Its survival.

Just remember that mean dog owners. People around you are afraid and your dogs smell it.


all i can say to that, is that is not true of all dogs. but then you'll probably counter with another thing and right now im so tired from my darn long day that i'll just won't add to my comment at the moment. all i can say is sorry you have had a bad experience with these type of dogs, but hey if you ever wanna see a pit, i'll gladly let you dog sit and see how mean :P he is.

as for kids being in fear of dogs, all i can say is someone must have taught them that fear, that is a learned trait. my daughter on the other hand has been raised with all kinds of critters and she's respectful and mindful of them and yes she is well supervised. here she is at 4 or 5 years old with and almost 200 lb great dane.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/DiverDown/Hawaii/chazzmokka.jpg
and here she is with out pit/boxer mix:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/DiverDown/Hawaii/zonked.jpg

[SusieMisajon]

Maybe dog owning...especially with 'certain' breeds...should be by licence only? If it's not the dog's fault, but simply a matter of a stupid owner, perhaps the owners should be regulated?

[SusieMisajon]

It's all very nice posting pictures of cute kids with their doggies...but there are also pictures out there that show what the doggies are capable of doing.

[DiverDown808]

You mean, like This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hY9EKHAqUUI)?

Again, bad owner....bad dog. In this case, the owner is from another planet. Listen to the conversation, it gets pretty odd. LOL

DD

[Karen]

I do my best to stay open-minded about the breeds thanks to a daughter that is helping to educate me, but sure, news report after report of the bad that this certain breed does can keep me from choosing to own one myself, I do have to admit.

I own one dog at the moment, and he is a five year old Australian Shepherd. My second favorite dog ever was an Australian Cattle Dog. Oh what intelligence, obedience and eagerness to please, and just dang fun to have around. I sometimes thought I was looking at an "old soul" when he sat and I stared into his eyes for a moment.

[Kungpao]

... news report after report of the bad that this certain breed does can keep me from choosing to own one myself, I do have to admit....


That's understandable. But tell me this, if you're a news reporter and you have the choice of reporting a bully attack or a poodle mauling, which one are you going to report on? The media is as much to blame for breed descrimination as anything. That goes through phases, dobermans, german shepherds, rotties, pitties.. They all get their turn. I bet if a Saint Bernard sat on an infant and killed it, the same day that a pittie killed another dog, the pittie story would get aired.



Why does owning one of these dogs have to be an issue over how macho I want to be. That's pretty naive to think that's the case for every owner. You can't accept the fact that some people just PREFER these breeds over others? Most people don't go to their pet store and say ooh I want the ugly one over in the corner cause it's supposed to be a really good breed.


People don't do homework in researching the breed they want to purchase. That's irresponsible ownership. Not giving your dog the attention it needs. That's irresponsible ownership. Thinking that leaving ANY dogs alone with children. That's irresponsible ownership. People buying one of these breeds and thinking that they can handle it and it's their first dog. That's irresponsible ownership. No leash. Irresponsible ownership. Trying to beat the dog into submission. Irresponsible ownership. I can keep going but I guess at this point it's moot because the people that are posting in this thread are pretty adamant about their views and nothing anyone will say will change their opinions.

[Kungpao]

Maybe dog owning...especially with 'certain' breeds...should be by licence only? If it's not the dog's fault, but simply a matter of a stupid owner, perhaps the owners should be regulated?

FWIW, at our local no kill shelter, the dog warden has to have a home visit before they adopt out any large breed dog. I'm not quite sure on the facts as I haven't looked them up but I'm pretty sure all states in the US mandate that ALL dogs be licensed.

[SusieMisajon]

FWIW, at our local no kill shelter, the dog warden has to have a home visit before they adopt out any large breed dog. I'm not quite sure on the facts as I haven't looked them up but I'm pretty sure all states in the US mandate that ALL dogs be licensed.
What I mean is...what aout MORE than licenced, what about really regulated, with dog handling classes, background checks for the owners, annual reviews, extra high fees, annual veterinary checks, muzzle and leash laws, no indiscriminate breeding practices, an extra high sales tax, containment rules, psychological reviews of the owners....at least then you could be sure that someone who had one of a 'certain breed' of dog really wanted and them and was able to show responsibility.

[sinjin]

http://www.hawaiipitbullalliance.org/index.html

For the record I am not a hater. Please just remember what these animals really are and don't be naive.

DOG FIGHTING: AND THE BULL TERRIER

..."In 1835 the cruel practice of Bull-baiting was prohibited by law and the Bulldog's true occupation disappeared. He would probably have most died out but for the barbarous so called sport of dog fighting. Dog fighting commenced about 1690, in the reign of James II. Burnette in his "History of My Own Times" written about 1700, refers to dog fighting and the gardens at which these scenes were enacted. For fully 100 years the Bulldog was the only dog used in this cruel pastime, but in or about the year 1800 the devotees of the game sought to produce a quicker dog in the pit.

At this time there were many smooth coated Old English Terriers in varied colorings, but all smart, active and alert. Excellent for Killing rats or unearthing the fox. the larger types of these Terriers were crossed with the Bulldog and the product which was a dog that combined all the dash and speed of the terrier with the indomitable courage and fighting instinct of the Bulldog. These dogs were known as Bull Terriers."
http://www.americanbulldog.org/history.htm

[cynsaligia]

People don't do homework in researching the breed they want to purchase. That's irresponsible ownership. Not giving your dog the attention it needs. That's irresponsible ownership. Thinking that leaving ANY dogs alone with children. That's irresponsible ownership. People buying one of these breeds and thinking that they can handle it and it's their first dog. That's irresponsible ownership. No leash. Irresponsible ownership. Trying to beat the dog into submission. Irresponsible ownership. I can keep going but I guess at this point it's moot because the people that are posting in this thread are pretty adamant about their views and nothing anyone will say will change their opinions.


AMEN!!

i don't own a dog right now and haven't since childhood because i can't afford the time and dedication a pet deserves (sheesh, i kill plants, k?). however, eric's house is surrounded by dog owners, including a man who owns a pit bull mix. of all the dogs in the hood, that one is my favorite. why? not because i'm particularly fond of the breed, but because that dog is the most well-behaved of ten-odd dogs, which include a beagle, some sort of collie mix, a lab, and a little yappy dog that i've never seen, but boy! have i heard it. maybe i should say i'm the most fond of the pit and his owner, because clearly, the owner is a great dog parent. some of the other dogs are very lucky if they're ever let out of the yard, and all of those dogs in particular have been, in many instances, a noise nuisance--barking incessantly and inappropriately at all kinds of hours (which is a violation of honolulu ordinance and punishable by fines of up to $1000 and incarceration). it's easy for us to target our resent at the dog, but it's actually the dog owner. certain owner behaviors will guarantee a poorly adjusted dog--leaving the dog in the yard, neglected, all day; not taking a dog for as long a walk as its breed requires versus taking them out only long enough to pee and poop; not consistently disciplining the dog; not building a true master (or as mr. milan would say, pack leader) - dog relationship. what's most incredible to me is that so many of the dog owners who live here have probably never taken their dogs to the dog park which is only five blocks away.

as for people often buying dogs without researching the breed first? that's exceedingly rampant. the aforementioned beagle is a perfect example. the family used to leave the beagle in the yard tied to a tree all day long. they would rarely walk the dog and if the dog was barking, the owners would only intermittently poke their heads out the house to half-heartedly shush the dog. this dog barked every day at 4 in morning, 6 in the morning, 7:30 in the morning, on and on til as late as midnight...for as long as an hour with few breaks in between. no big deal, you say. well, have you heard how loudly a beagle can bark? and let's not forget that beagles howl. it took us fifteen minutes on the net to discover that beagles hate being left alone and tied up in the yard and that beagles, because of what they were bred for, are among the worst kinds of dog you can have in the urban setting. they require a lot of exercise and attentionand they need a lot of land on which to run and roam. i won't go into the details, but basically, with the help of the humane society and hpd, eric and i forced the owners to take better care of their beagle, which had the effect of greatly reducing the barking. and i think the beagle is happier for it.

as for "not forgetting what these animals are" and "not being naive?" i agree with this statement but possibly not in the way that sinjin meant it. there are lots of dogs who have been bred to hunt small game. shiba inu, the most beloved dog of japan, is one example. eric's mom's shibas have been known to follow their instincts and catch and kill a stray cat stupid enough to go into the family yard by grabbing it by the neck and snapping it with a swing of the head. but would we ever condemn the dog? no. should we? definitely not. if the killed cat had an owner, then the owner was stupid to let the cat loose in a neighborhood filled with dogs.

a responsible dog owner researches the breed before bringing it home and adjusts his/her behavior to fit the dog. my belief is that the irresponsible dog owners are much more visible/audible than the responsible ones, and it's the irresponsible owners who allow their dog's bad/destructive behaviors to come to the surface.

[CranBeree]

It's all very nice posting pictures of cute kids with their doggies...but there are also pictures out there that show what the doggies are capable of doing.

susie..... *sigh* just go back to being under the bed....

[CranBeree]

sinjin fron your link provided:

The Hawaiian Pit Bull Alliance was started to create a place for people on the island of Oahu to enjoy their dogs and educate the public about our beloved bulldogs. "Pit Bulls" and all breeds deemed as such, have been prosecuted for years, due to poor breeding, training and irresponsible ownership. All over the U.S., legislatures are creating laws, banning our breeds and having them euthenised for no reason other then being a "pit bull".


like i've been saying it all boils down to irresponsible owners. of course they will have a bad rap due to the problems stated above.

what im trying to say is that don't blame the breed of dog, blame the owners.

regardless of the links you provided, clearly those dogs were owned by someone and maybe that someone wasn't fit to have a dog, be it any dog in the first place.

[sinjin]

sinjin fron your link provided:

The Hawaiian Pit Bull Alliance was started to create a place for people on the island of Oahu to enjoy their dogs and educate the public about our beloved bulldogs. "Pit Bulls" and all breeds deemed as such, have been prosecuted for years, due to poor breeding, training and irresponsible ownership. All over the U.S., legislatures are creating laws, banning our breeds and having them euthenised for no reason other then being a "pit bull".Just trying to help since my "freindly advice" seems to get misconstrued.

what im trying to say is that don't blame the breed of dog, blame the owners.That's where I think you're being naive. Don't blame the machine gun....right?

regardless of the links you provided, clearly those dogs were owned by someone and maybe that someone wasn't fit to have a dog, be it any dog in the first place.
Try: pitbullbc.ca or http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=126481

[CranBeree]

sinjin,

im not entirely sure of what you are trying to convince me of?
i do know the bad/good of this breed and well aware of the negativity surrounding them. we did not get a pit or a rottie on the intention that it would be a guard dog, rather it would be a family pet. we love our dogs, we even love other peoples dogs even if they have a chinese crested dog :P we just prefer these type of breeds, why you ask? because we are familiar with them, raising them, letting them be a part of our family, and when i see what the media does to spin hate against these dogs, i just shake my head and BLAME THE OWNERS but not the dog.

[sinjin]

sinjin,

im not entirely sure of what you are trying to convince me of?


...all im saying is before you blame the BREED, take a good look at the owners.I've looked and now I feel justified in questioning the wisdom of letting this breed continue. I'm asking you to stop advocating for this breed. They have become the embodiment of adolescent rage for too many young men all over this country and the world. There is no safe amount of dynamite you can store in your garage.

Peace!

[CranBeree]

Just trying to help since my "freindly advice" seems to get misconstrued.

That's where I think you're being naive. Don't blame the machine gun....right?


Try: pitbullbc.ca or http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=126481


no, i would blame the person that pulled the trigger on the gun.

and that last link you provided, where were the owners??

from your provided link : “Typically the fatal attacks include a combination of the wrong dog in the wrong hands in the wrong circumstances,” said Dr. Randall Lockwood, a senior vice president at the A.S.P.C.A.

A 2000 study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association found that pit bulls accounted for the greatest number of fatal dog attacks from 1979 to 1998 in which the breed was identified. But experts caution against attributing the behavior of individual dogs solely to their breed, rather than care or training.

[Leo Lakio]

What I mean is...what aout MORE than licenced, what about really regulated, with dog handling classes, background checks for the owners, annual reviews, extra high fees, annual veterinary checks, muzzle and leash laws, no indiscriminate breeding practices, an extra high sales tax, containment rules, psychological reviews of the owners....at least then you could be sure that someone who had one of a 'certain breed' of dog really wanted and them and was able to show responsibility.To tweak someone's earlier comment in this thread - we don't even make potential parents go through that kind of training.

[CranBeree]

I've looked and now I feel justified in questioning the wisdom of letting this breed continue. I'm asking you to stop advocating for this breed. They have become the embodiment of adolescent rage for too many young men all over this country and the world. There is no safe amount of dynamite you can store in your garage.


so just because they are the embodiment of adolescent rage we should make the breed extinct? hmm, we should also ban parents that keep on producing kids so that they can get on the welfare system :P
its just damn sad you feel that way.

i am not advocating this breed (i just happen to owm and have owned pits and rotts) , what i am trying to advocate is RESPONSIBLE OWNERSHIP regardless of what breed you have. that is the key point.

[tikiyaki]

You mean, like This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hY9EKHAqUUI)?

Again, bad owner....bad dog. In this case, the owner is from another planet. Listen to the conversation, it gets pretty odd. LOL

DD

LOL...from California OF COURSE !

[tikiyaki]

WOW, now THIS is something I thought I'd NEVER see.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2jkExrrm_sQ&mode=related&search=

[sinjin]

so just because they are the embodiment of adolescent rage we should make the breed extinct?Possibly.

i am not advocating this breed, what i am trying to advocate is RESPONSIBLE OWNERSHIP regardless of what breed you have. that is the key point. And I'm trying unsuccessfully to get you to see that they are not a dog like any other. They descend from livestock killers to dog killers with a dash of vermin killer for good measure. And the culling for human-aggresive tendencies has not been practiced for God knows how many generations.

... we just prefer these type of breeds, why you ask? because we are familiar with them, raising them, letting them be a part of our family...There's more to it than that whether you consciously know it or not.

Do you think all dog breeds have a right to exist and should continue to be bred for some tradition's sake? Or do you think there's a place for dogs with this particular skill set today?

[CranBeree]

Possibly.

And I'm trying unsuccessfully to get you to see that they are not a dog like any other. They descend from livestock killers to dog killers with a dash of vermin killer for good measure. And the culling for human-aggresive tendencies has not been practiced for God knows how many generations.

Do you think all dog breeds have a right to exist and should continue to be bred for some tradition's sake? Or do you think there's a place for dogs with this particular skill set today?


yes i think ALL dog breeds have a right to exist and continue. not entirely clear on your 2nd question but i will say that i do not condone people that raise their dogs to fight ( that is being irresponsible). i can certainly understand the history of the fighting dogs, bulldogs, pitbulls etc. and im glad for the ban on the fighting dogs and im glad that they didn't ban the breed. look past that and at the heart you'll find a dog that is playful, loving at times goofy, but most of all a good companion. this is what i see when i look at my dog. i do not see the portrayed killer he is supposed to be, full off anger and in attack. what you should be working on is maybe taking a scrutinizing look at owners and in their ability in to raise such a dog. with that said, i don't think there are people out there that are fit to own/raise this type of dog. as posted by DD808 earlier:

But anyway, all I ask is that you seriously think about who to point that accusing finger at. Are there visious Pitts and Rotts out there ? Of course. Are they like that because irresponsible owners reinforced that aggressive trait that all dogs have ? Of course. Are they like that because it's the nature of the breed ? I really don't think so. I've just had way too many experiences growing up with them. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad dog owners there.

k off to do mom stuff and kick it with my pit :P

[greentara]

Please read this, the owner is still defending her dogs!!
Mother shut boy in basement to protect him from pit bull

12-year-old was killed by family dog; owner sees death as tragic accident but defends the breed as loving pets

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/06/12_t/mn_pitbull_054_at_t.gif (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2005/06/12/MNGJND7G5L1.DTL&o=0) http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/06/12_t/mn_fatalmauling03_t.gif (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2005/06/12/MNGJND7G5L1.DTL&o=1) http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/06/12_t/mn_fatalmauling02_t.gif (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2005/06/12/MNGJND7G5L1.DTL&o=2)

Menacing Dogs
Pit bull fanciers eager to improve breed's image (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/08/11/BAG4AE663O1.DTL) (8/11)
Craigslist pressured to ban dog, cat ads (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/11/MNGJ2DLUUH1.DTL) (7/11)
Bite reports show pit bulls most likely culprit (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/07/11/BAG5UDLOAC1.DTL) (7/11)
Santa Rosa girl attacked by neighbor's dog (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/23/MNGRODDG2S1.DTL) (6/23)
Pit bull tops in fatal maulings (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/23/MNGRODDH561.DTL) (6/23)
City leaders push dog laws with some bite (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/21/BAGASDBOEN1.DTL) (6/21)
(http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/went/msglist?forum=Dogs&msgPerPage=25&postnum=)Hours before being mauled to death by the family pit bull, 12-year- old Nicholas Faibish had been told to stay in the basement separated from the dogs, said his distraught mother, Maureen Faibish, who called The Chronicle on Saturday, trying to make sense of what she called a "freak accident.''

"I put him down there, with a shovel on the door,'' said Faibish, who had left the boy alone with the dogs on June 3 to run some errands. "He had a bunch of food. And I told him, 'Stay down there until I come back.' Typical Nicky, he wouldn't listen to me.'' This article appeared on page A - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle

[greentara]

This woman was willing to lock her child in the basement because her dogs were breeding. Incidents such as this one are increasing and it's not simply the press exploiting these situations. I also remember an incident in Oakland where a little boy was attacked by bulls while riding his bike, spent years recovering. I resent people protecting these animals and their reputation. I just don't get it why would one want a dog that will go off their property into the street and intimidate people?????? I can understand wanting "guard dogs" if the response time for the police is long but when you live in a area that is populated with homes~people~police near by and a response time that is prompt why, why why. I would rather people had guns in their homes than a vicious dog that can not be controlled, at least they would not be shooting at me as I walk by, (hopefully). Yea, yea, yea, it’s the owners not the breed well there have been too many incidents of owners not being able to control their animals. Genetic behavioral traits have been breed into dogs and aggressive behavior has been bread into Bulls, it’s simple as that.

[SusieMisajon]

It's either the dogs, or the people that own them....SOMEONE has got to go.

[sinjin]

This woman was willing to lock her child in the basement because her dogs were breeding. Incidents such as this one are increasing and it's not simply the press exploiting these situations. I also remember an incident in Oakland where a little boy was attacked by bulls while riding his bike, spent years recovering. I resent people protecting these animals and their reputation. I just don't get it why would one want a dog that will go off their property into the street and intimidate people?????? I can understand wanting "guard dogs" if the response time for the police is long but when you live in a area that is populated with homes~people~police near by and a response time that is prompt why, why why. I would rather people had guns in their homes than a vicious dog that can not be controlled, at least they would not be shooting at me as I walk by, (hopefully). Yea, yea, yea, it’s the owners not the breed well there have been too many incidents of owners not being able to control their animals. Genetic behavioral traits have been breed into dogs and aggressive behavior has been bread into Bulls, it’s simple as that. Please be careful on your walks. These dogs are a favorite in parts of Hawaii. Never turn and run. Consider arming yourself. An alunimum little league bat is my personal favorite. Makes a nice ping to let you know when you've made good contact.:D

[tikiyaki]

Please be careful on your walks. These dogs are a favorite in parts of Hawaii. Never turn and run. Consider arming yourself. An alunimum little league bat is my personal favorite. Makes a nice ping to let you know when you've made good contact.:D

Actually pepper spray, and even a more humane defense is an air horn.

[SusieMisajon]

I remember, way back when, the dogpound in Hilo had 90% pitbulls or crosses..most were unwanted pakalolo protectors from up in the wild west of the fern forest.

[tikiyaki]

Actually, THIS WOMAN should be the one to be Put down.
What a FRIKKEN PSYCHO.

[Kungpao]

It's amazing how much hate there is in this thread.



I'd like to request that this thread be locked as it's gone from people trying to state facts to people trying to force their opinions on others.

[SusieMisajon]

It's amazing how much hate there is in this thread.



I'd like to request that this thread be locked as it's gone from people trying to state facts to people trying to force their opinions on others.
I disagree.

[1stwahine]

Dang! You all need to calm down. Breath in and breath out.:(

Auntie Lynn

[tikiyaki]

Not hate, just a passionate discussion.

Well...Maybe hate, for basic stupidity, as exemplified by the woman in this article.:rolleyes:

[sinjin]

It's amazing how much hate there is in this thread.



I'd like to request that this thread be locked as it's gone from people trying to state facts to people trying to force their opinions on others. You didn't start this thread. Remove yourself if you find it distasteful. I have not tried to contribute hate but only to counter the apologists with some reality. Once again, I've lived with these animals. Should I share some personal anecdotes to illustrate? These animals pose a serious hazard to the pets of others and often people, especially children. Can they be managed? Of course. So can tigers. There's a reason automatic weapons are illegal even though there are responsible gun owners. And guns don't have a mind of their own.

I'm gone. Good luck with your next dog selection. You might consider one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perro_de_Presa_Canario
They're very sweet and hardly ever kill humans.

p.s. You wanna see hate just ask me what I think of rescuing "pound puppies". But you know first hand yourself now don't you?

[1stwahine]

I had a doggie once. He was a dachshund. His name was Ceasar.:D

Made ya SMILE! :)

Auntie Lynn

[Leo Lakio]

Couple-a thoughts that came to me while out for a walk today ---

I can clearly see the logic in Susie's post (supported to a degree by Sinjin) regarding cessation of certain dog breeds. She's not suggesting killing off anybody's well-trained, beloved pets. But she is suggesting that, for a number of reasons stated throughout the thread, why not consider the high percentage of risk that is connected to these breeds, whether through their own genetics or the likelihood of owners raising them for less-than-safe purposes - and cease breeding them, allowing that breed to eventually come to an end? As humans, we kill off lines of animals constantly, primarily through our eons of ecological damage.

BUT ... having said that I see the logic of it, I could not endorse such an activity, for the simple reason that we humans seem to think that we have the right to "play god" with this world. Okay - isolating a virus or bacterium that kills human beings, and eliminating its existence from Earth, I can accept that. But choosing to allow the dying off of a thinking, feeling animal, simply because we (as a species) have misused them for generations and possibly bred dangerous traits into them? Sorry, but that's a bit more of a cop-out to me.

IF (that's "if," as in assuming these breeds do now have genetic tendencies that make them dangerous) we have bred these dogs to be maulers and killers, and now in hindsight wish we hadn't, I don't see that as granting us any right to just wipe them out in a couple generations.

What are we behaviorally adapting and genetically enhancing in today's world, that we will regret 500 years from now? I believe the science-fiction writers are good at addressing that question.

I am allergic to cats and dogs, and can't have any. But I love them, big and small, and had a dog when I was growing up. I've been bitten three times by dogs - two of the bites were from little dogs; in one case, a toy poodle that knew me well - she just flipped out one time and ripped my hand open, no reason we could see - and was no trouble to me after that. All beasts, human and non, can be unpredictable.


Lastly - I understand why, but it bugs me when anyone (aside from Admin) insists that a thread be closed. Cooling our tempers and emotions down is fine, but calling for an end to discussion? Not necessary. Walk away from a thread, if it's too hot for your tastes, or try the "ignore" function - but don't call for anyone else to be silenced, please. IMHO.

[CranBeree]

my last post in this thread as this could go on and on..

to the people that disagree about this breed, i'm truly sorry for the trauma or event that made you hate on this breed. and sorry that you can't see past that.

[cynsaligia]

p.s. You wanna see hate just ask me what I think of rescuing "pound puppies". But you know first hand yourself now don't you?


everyone, of course, is sorry you had the traumatic experience you mentioned in the apology thread. however, i'll point out here that your (and others') declaration that the entire breed is bad and should possibly be forced into extinction is not so far from claiming that a certain race of people, which might statistically be shown to be more likely than other races of people to commit crime, are all bad and therefore should be wiped out.

i'll use a phrase i repeatedly used in another thread: the vast majority of owners who rescued their dogs from the pound have had no problems. and the vast majority of those who found their dogs troubled or troublesome would agree that the vast majority of those dogs were not born that way but were mistreated, and badly.

to hate (and i use this word literally, because you introduced it) on an entire class or breed because of some terrible results is just simplistic judgment. in my humble opinion. yet i'm smart enough to know that because of your experience, you won't change your mind. that's just plain sad.

[CranBeree]

ok i lied this will be my last post ( i think)

im so damn giddy right now hehe due to the BPOD thread.


but after reading Cyn's post...i could just picture sinjin as the DOG NAZI

no dog for you! no dog for you!


sorry sorry omg i'm cracking up :D

[scrivener]

...your (and others') declaration that the entire breed is bad and should possibly be forced into extinction is not so far from claiming that a certain race of people, which might statistically be shown to be more likely than other races of people to commit crime, are all bad and therefore should be wiped out.
The difference here is that those certain races of people were not specifically bred by some outside influence for aggression. I love dogs and I think that humans are a better species because of the love of dogs. But there is a history of dogs being bred for specific traits. Dachshunds were bred for their physical ability to reach into badger holes and for their inclination not to back down from an angry badger. I've owned part-dachshunds, and they are unrealistically confident in their ability to handle themselves against just about anyone.

Opposition to entire breeds of dogs is NOT like opposition to an entire ethnicity of people for that reason alone. It's not fair to imply that disliking a breed of dog is something like racism. Otherwise, everyone who's got a PREFERENCE for a certain breed of dog is also a racist.

Pit bulls were bred for certain traits. I think other traits (those common to all dogs) are stronger, and can therefore be taken advantage of, even over a dog's other tendencies. Good owners almost always, it seems to me, make the biggest difference, because according to the folklore, the earliest domesticated dogs were selected for their eagerness to let someone else be the Alpha.

Good ownership does not necessarily mean a good dog, 'though it seems to mean it most of the time. If dogs could be counted on always to be good when treated certain ways, they'd be boring pets. There seems to be a possible personality there in the dog that we like, including a possibly bad personality.

If I'm not making sense, I guess I'm saying that, like with children, good parenting is the biggest single influence, but it doesn't guarantee anything.

I don't like the idea of intentionally breeding pit bulls out of existence, but if in these modern times we decide to undo what other breeders have done, and maybe add a little bit more tenderness (or whatever) to the mix, I don't see any harm in that. Dog breeders do the same thing with their show dogs all the time. When they selectively breed their dogs, they are taking into consideration a dog's behavior in the show ring.

It should be pointed out that even "purebreeds" are a creation of a governing influence. For all recognized breeds, there was a time when they "closed the book" on a breed, meaning that unless a dog was the offspring of one of the animals listed in the registry (the "book") for a certain breed, it was not purely bred. That's a very artificial thing.

[Peshkwe]

A little history on the American Pit Bull:

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html


A bully can be a mellow family dog or a killer, it depends on it's genealogy and how the breeding was selected. If the dog is coming from a line bred for aggressiveness expect that, if it's from a line of family or show dogs it'll have a mellow disposition....any dog will be like that.

It's up to the potential owner of any breed to investigate the sire and the dam as well as the grad sire and dam if possible to find out a pup's potential temperament. Puppy mill dogs of any kind are to be avoided because of the inbreeding bringing out things like genetic problems and aggression.

I've met bullys and wolf mixes who were complete mush babies and would love on you forever, and I've met mutt dogs and little dogs who'd rip your throat out if given half a chance.

The worst dogs I've personally ever encountered were the beagles and hunting hounds that ran loose in Virginia and house dogs that were let loose to run. Dogs really get stupid when they pack.

I've also found that wasp and hornet spray is as effective as, or maybe better than, pepper spray. It holds more juice and has a longer range of spray and most times all you have to do is hit the ground in front of the dog to make it back off.

[cynsaligia]

The difference here is that those certain races of people were not specifically bred by some outside influence for aggression. I love dogs and I think that humans are a better species because of the love of dogs. But there is a history of dogs being bred for specific traits. Dachshunds were bred for their physical ability to reach into badger holes and for their inclination not to back down from an angry badger. I've owned part-dachshunds, and they are unrealistically confident in their ability to handle themselves against just about anyone.

Opposition to entire breeds of dogs is NOT like opposition to an entire ethnicity of people for that reason alone. It's not fair to imply that disliking a breed of dog is something like racism. Otherwise, everyone who's got a PREFERENCE for a certain breed of dog is also a racist.



i don't disagree with you, scriv--which is why i said "not so far." my opinion is actually much more nuanced than i'm willing to get into here. my main point, however, is that i wholeheartedly do not agree with the wholesale dismissal of a dog breed.

as for the rest of your post, there's nothing i disagree with, either. in fact, my understanding is that there are groups emerging who support purebreeds becoming not so "pure" (at least by the current standards of each breed) anymore because continuing the breeding methods, such as they are, might cause the dogs to develop traits harmful to the dogs themselves over time.

you've brought up a point that i mentioned earlier--that breeds of dogs were developed to have certain favorable traits--like the ability to shepherd, to flush and kill game, to hunt and kill rats, and so on. pits were bred for certain reasons, too. is it the dogs' fault that as time has gone by, in our industrialized/information society, that we don't need our dogs to do those things we bred them to do? i'd say it's not. so, extending on some of your other comments, maybe it's not merely that dog owners as individuals have to be good dog parents, but we as humans, who have cultivated and developed the dogs to our various needs over the centuries, need to continue our parental duties to the dog in the various ways that the humane society advocates, for example, and possibly in the way you suggest, too.

[1stwahine]

Dachshunds were bred for their physical ability to reach into badger holes and for their inclination not to back down from an angry badger. I've owned part-dachshunds, and they are unrealistically confident in their ability to handle themselves against just about anyone.

Wow! My parents shua knew how to pick a doggie foa me! Ceasar was a trooper. He knew I was Bi-Polar and handled himself well.:D

Yeah. He did.

And he never did bite me and I never did bite him.:p

Hail Ceasar!:)

Auntie Lynn

[Karen]

That's understandable. But tell me this, if you're a news reporter and you have the choice of reporting a bully attack or a poodle mauling, which one are you going to report on? The media is as much to blame for breed descrimination as anything. That goes through phases, dobermans, german shepherds, rotties, pitties.. They all get their turn. I bet if a Saint Bernard sat on an infant and killed it, the same day that a pittie killed another dog, the pittie story would get aired."


Kungpao, you are so right, the media sensationalizes when it's the pit breed. I really do see the wisdom in my daughter's motto of..

"Punish the Deed, Not the Breed."

[greentara]

Please be careful on your walks. These dogs are a favorite in parts of Hawaii. Never turn and run. Consider arming yourself. An alunimum little league bat is my personal favorite. Makes a nice ping to let you know when you've made good contact.:D

Problem is Sinjin, I don't think I could use the bat; :D I've never hit a dog or a child. I prefer to just avoid the homes with the out of control dogs. I don't see "hate" in this thread, I simply don't get why the safety of people is not a primary concern. No, I don't "hate" Bulls; I do fear their unpredictable reactions to situations.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

this is a provocative thread, because my own experience growing up with these dogs far overrules my consideration for others' impressions of the breed, particularly the notion of proactive extinction.

These animals require sober consideration. Permit their ownership accordingly. If the owners are in an urban area, give them the strictest license requirements. For folks like us who treat them as both pet and livestock (meaning, an animal with a job function to do and adequate living space to do it), tailor our reqs to reflect that.

Raise your children to appreciate the skill of dealing with dogs (and raising pets in general) that it is. Before there was the Dog Whisperer, there was my dad. We always had several 'bulls at a time and my father was w/o a doubt the alpha. He taught us to be the same way from a young age.

[DiverDown808]

Actually pepper spray, and even a more humane defense is an air horn.

Yeah, but a high power paintball gun is so much more fun :D

DD

[i-hungry]

Yeah but what about those vicious attack hamsters? Those buck teeth are killas.

[sinjin]

These animals require sober consideration. Permit their ownership accordingly. If the owners are in an urban area, give them the strictest license requirements. For folks like us who treat them as both pet and livestock (meaning, an animal with a job function to do and adequate living space to do it), tailor our reqs to reflect that.

This is a perfectly satisfactory approach. I have no fear of these dogs for myself and still have a certain affection for them. I was trying to speak to the societal implications in this thread. I end up being called a Nazi. Lovely.

[greentara]

this is a provocative thread, because my own experience growing up with these dogs far overrules my consideration for others' impressions of the breed, particularly the notion of proactive extinction.

These animals require sober consideration. Permit their ownership accordingly. If the owners are in an urban area, give them the strictest license requirements. For folks like us who treat them as both pet and livestock (meaning, an animal with a job function to do and adequate living space to do it), tailor our reqs to reflect that.

Raise your children to appreciate the skill of dealing with dogs (and raising pets in general) that it is. Before there was the Dog Whisperer, there was my dad. We always had several 'bulls at a time and my father was w/o a doubt the alpha. He taught us to be the same way from a young age.

Good advice. I visited some people with a friend last night that had a Pit Bull pet and he seemed very affectionate. The dog whisper was on TV the other day and he had a Pit Bull as an example during a training session. Seemed like a very obedient model of what this breed could be with proper training. Since this thread I spoke with my neighbor and she said that "Rusty" the dog up the street was a victim of abuse by his owner. She saw him beating the dog one day as she walked by. When she confronted the man he said he needed to make Rusty mean because of the fact that his house was isolated and he wanted to make sure that his dog guarded the place. :(

Observation: not one person that posted here seemed to have any compassion regarding victims of this breed. Interesting…

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Observation: not one person that posted here seemed to have any compassion regarding victims of this breed. Interesting…

not interesting at all, but a rather stupid thing to say.

[greentara]

not interesting at all, but a rather stupid thing to say.

And that would be your opinion, which you are entitled to.

[LikaNui]

And that would be your opinion, which you are entitled to. Pua`i Mana`o is not alone in her opinion. Not by a long shot.

[LikaNui]

Going on my third month living on Kaua’i That was from your post that started this thread a couple of days ago, so I guess I remembered correctly. But what really concerned me about that post was this:

Went to the river to swim across the road from my house and there were guys there with pit bulls in cages in the back of their truck. Clearly there was no hunting at all where you came from, or you'd have known instantly what the deal was, as has since been explained to you here.

Why do people feel the need for such vicious animals in such a beautiful pristine environment ~ such a dichotomy Pit bulls and Aloha??????? See, that was the line that concerned me. That's kind of a typical malihini mistake, questioning and apparently criticizing a piece of Hawaii's lifestyle and culture just because it's different than where you came from. I'm not jumping on your case, just offering a wee bit of advice on how you sounded and how it could be interpreted, k?
The same goes for your SuperFerry comment in another thread tonight.
You're lucky to be living in Hawaii. Just remember that, please.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Tara, mine is not merely an opinion of which I am entitled. It was a reaction to a very stupid thing you said,

Observation: not one person that posted here seemed to have any compassion regarding victims of this breed. Interesting…

Not one post in the five pages of this thread justified your "observation", for no one here has advocated that the victims deserved their fate. The compassion required on this thread has been the advocacy for those who share the planet with us--animals. An appeal to understand their natures, our responsibility in domesticating them, umbrage against proactive extinction. For you to make the statement as you did is beyond a leap of logic. Victims already have our full compassion, but for the fact that it goes without saying, your statement is ill-placed and ill-throught (hence 'stupid').

[tikiyaki]

Observation: not one person that posted here seemed to have any compassion regarding victims of this breed. Interesting…>>

In the case of the mother locking her 12 year old in the basement, who ended getting mauled to death, the person I have no compassion for is the mother and father.
The boy is a victim of both STUPID parents AND Pit Bulls.

HIM I have compassion for.

Very little for the animals, and NONE for the parents.

That being said, I see nothing valid in comparing Pit Bulls to Rottweilers.

One is bred for fighting one for working.

Both can be trained to be attact dogs, but only one is bred to be naturally aggresive.

[CranBeree]

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html

History/Origin:
His ancestors were brought to the Unites States in the mid - 1800's by Boston-Irish immigrants. Originally bred from a variety of bulldogs and terriers, American breeders increased his weight and gave him a more powerful head. A forbearer to the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, they were originally bred to be a fighting dog. Bull baiting was banned in England in 1835 and these dogs are no longer been bred to fights. [/B]There is some complication in registries of this breed. The AKC considers the American Staffordshire Terrier as separate and distinct from the American Pit Bull Terrier, yet the UKC will register both as American Pit Bull Terriers (APBTs).

[CranBeree]

http://www.pitbullregistry.com/unwaranted%20negative%20stigma.htm

read it!

[sinjin]

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html
...these dogs are no longer been bred to fights.Besides being improper English, the statement comes from an advocate's site. The statement is factually untrue as well. Dog fighting is alive and well as witnessed by recent news.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19028969/site/newsweek/
"Humane Society of the United States estimates that participants and spectators number in the tens of thousands."

[CranBeree]

not legally in the US..other countries i'm not aware of it. if the news you are talking about is regarding Vicks, well tell me if that is being responsible. once again it comes down to the owner.


irregardless, i still hold true to my opinion regarding this breed. this breed is not for everyone and is not to be taken lightly but there are people out there that are just damned idiots..

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/amerpit.html

In fact, the well-bred American Pit Bull Terrier is a family guardian and protector; an intelligent and obedient pet; a sweet, even-tempered dog that serves well as a help-mate to handicapped owner and friend to small children; and a healthy, hardy dog that complains little and offers much to his family.
Unfortunately, it has been more important for legislators in many jurisdictions to prove to constituents that they have "done something" about community problems. Spurred on by media accounts of "pit bull" attacks described in lurid detail, these councils and commissioners have banned pit bulls in all their forms from their communities. Never mind that the owners are the ones at fault for harboring a vicious dog; never mind that few of these dogs actually bite people; never mind that the breed and its crosses are not always easy to identify. Just ban them.

[CranBeree]

http://www.realpitbull.com/fight.html

http://www.realpitbull.com/temperament.html

[CranBeree]

sinjin, i don't know what event happened to you that trauamtized, clearly whatever that was has affected you deeply. so whatever event that was, is probably the reason you wnat to "banish the breed" *sigh* so just because of what you went through, don't "perpetuate the hate." but you probably will anyway.

I on the other hand along with my family has and is still continuing to enjoy our dog. my oldest girl is 14, she has grown up with bulls. have they ever tried to maim or attack her? nope? same goes for my little one. my dogs are damned good dogs, I/We make sure of that. and i'll continue to counter every negative thing you say.

[sinjin]

sinjin, i don't know what event happened to you that trauamtized, clearly whatever that was has affected you deeply. so whatever event that was, is probably the reason you wnat to "banish the breed" *sigh* so just because of what you went through, don't "perpetuate the hate." but you probably will anyway.

I on the other hand along with my family has and is still continuing to enjoy our dog. my oldest girl is 14, she has grown up with bulls. have they ever tried to maim or attack her? nope? same goes for my little one. my dogs are damned good dogs, I/We make sure of that. and i'll continue to counter every negative thing you say.I was never traumatized. I just have plenty of experiences with these dogs both good and bad. You can advocate all you like but I know from personal experience that pit bulls need to be treated differently than many other breeds. There are other breeds that need special regulation as well. I never said I was for "banishing the breed". I said that society might consider letting the breed disappear. We made them. They're not a "race" like people(absurd suggestion IMO). Domesticated animals have no priori right to continue to exist. They are not "God's creatures".

Referring to the OP, why do you suppose those pits were in cages? I've seen a pit bull leap from a moving vehicle to go after another dog.

[CranBeree]

just as you have had your personal experiences and we have ours.. and we draw from that. like i said before, these dogs are not to be taken lightly.

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbull-articles/so-you-want-a-pit-bull.html

There are two methods of training. One is to train your dog by showing it how to sit and lay down and then quitting. The other lasts forever.

Real training is life long training that starts when the puppy arrives at your home and ends with death.

Unless you're prepared to work with your dog 5-10-15 minutes per day, everyday, all week, every week, all year, every year, you may want to rethink your decision to get a Pit Bull.

Actually, if you're not prepared to train your dog, you should rethink getting any dog. Training is a fact of life and must be done in order to prevent a lot of trouble down the road.

If you can not control your dog, you don't need one

[sinjin]

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Atta...%20Clifton.pdf
Merritt Clifton, Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, US and Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006, click here to download.

[CranBeree]

BSL is a flawed concept from the moment it is conceived. In most cases the dogs are targeted leaving the owner, which is the responsible, rational thinking party, out of it.

Some impose fines along with their laws but are often not enforced to the maximum so the owner gets away with a slap on the wrist.
Dogs are not the problem and BSL does not recognize this. People are the problem and until we find a way to punish people for their neglectful actions which allow dogs to bite and terrorize the public we will never stop the problem.

First problem is, take one breed away, these people will find another breed to replace it.

Since the APBT bans the Rottweiler is now on the rise as the most popular breed.

Now these dogs are taking heat from the general public and the BSL supporters. Again they are restricting the dogs and not the people.


http://www.pitbulllovers.com/breed-specific-legislation.html

[CranBeree]

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbull-articles/pitbulls-and-fatal-dog-attacks.html

Fact: Out of the estimated 53 million dogs in the United States 92 fatal attacks are contributed to Pit Bulls or Pit Bull Mixes (2 were from American Staffordshire Terriers) from 1965-2001.

Source: Fatal Dog Attacks by Karen Delise

Imagine that. 53 million dogs. 92 fatal attacks out of 431 that span a 37 year period (1965-2001). Now I ask you, after looking at the numbers do we have a dangerous dog problem?

During that time period for my state of Kentucky there were 9 fatal dog attacks. Only one was a Pit Bull "type" dog.

Another attack during that time frame for my state was a Dachshund that killed a 14 day old baby after jumping in his crib.

Do we have a dangerous dog problem or is it being sensationalized to sell newspapers and create panic?

Fatal dog attacks by dangerous dogs are almost non-existent. 20 a year out of millions of dogs. The percentages are estimated to be somewhere around .0000004% of dog attacks are fatal.

[CranBeree]

and i'll keep on saying during these dog bites, WHERE were the OWNERS??

and by your link provided:

Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner or handler most often is responsible for making a dog into something dangerous.
An irresponsible owner or dog handler might create a situation that places another person in danger by a dog, without the dog itself being dangerous, as in the case of the Pomeranian that killed the infant (see above).
Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, even though its breed is considered to be potentially dangerous. A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack.

[sinjin]

http://www.iii.org/individuals/homei/tips/dogbiteliability/

[CranBeree]

Any dog, regardless of breed, is only as dangerous as his/her owner allows it to be.



*back to sleep*

[sinjin]

Any dog, regardless of breed, is only as dangerous as his/her owner allows it to be.



*back to sleep*

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/07/06/BAG0C7H3811.DTL

[tikiyaki]

just as you have had your personal experiences and we have ours.. and we draw from that. like i said before, these dogs are not to be taken lightly.

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbull-articles/so-you-want-a-pit-bull.html

There are two methods of training. One is to train your dog by showing it how to sit and lay down and then quitting. The other lasts forever.

Real training is life long training that starts when the puppy arrives at your home and ends with death.

Unless you're prepared to work with your dog 5-10-15 minutes per day, everyday, all week, every week, all year, every year, you may want to rethink your decision to get a Pit Bull.

Actually, if you're not prepared to train your dog, you should rethink getting any dog. Training is a fact of life and must be done in order to prevent a lot of trouble down the road.

If you can not control your dog, you don't need one

Cran...if only ALL dog owners were as responsible as you. I totally applaud your dedication to keeping your dogs well behaved. We both share a love of Rotties, and they too need to be kept in line.

Hell, my little Rottie beagle mix is a GREAT with people, but can't be trusted around other dogs, mainly ones that exude ant sort of alpha-ness. It sucks cos' she wasn't always like that. but as she gets older she bets bitchier.

Now when I walk her, I have to avoid any oncoming dogs because she just wants to beef with all of them.
But, I as her owner know that and keep her out of any situation that will lead to trouble.

I agree that the majority of these instances of tragedy with pit bulls is because of the owners, but I still maintain that pits and rotties were bred for different purposes, and it's unfair to compare the 2.

Also, and pit mix is usually tempered by the other breed it's mixed with. If yours is, say, a pit / lab mix, then that changes everything, as labs are pretty much a "Man's best friend" kind of dog and will usually even out some aggresive tendencies the pit may have.

Either way, training is key.

[sinjin]

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=93238&ran=134133

[sinjin]

More on dog fighting not gone by a long shot:
http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/opinion/commentary.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2007-09-23-0115.html

[CranBeree]

Cran...if only ALL dog owners were as responsible as you. I totally applaud your dedication to keeping your dogs well behaved. We both share a love of Rotties, and they too need to be kept in line.

Hell, my little Rottie beagle mix is a GREAT with people, but can't be trusted around other dogs, mainly ones that exude ant sort of alpha-ness. It sucks cos' she wasn't always like that. but as she gets older she bets bitchier.

Now when I walk her, I have to avoid any oncoming dogs because she just wants to beef with all of them.
But, I as her owner know that and keep her out of any situation that will lead to trouble.

I agree that the majority of these instances of tragedy with pit bulls is because of the owners, but I still maintain that pits and rotties were bred for different purposes, and it's unfair to compare the 2.

Also, and pit mix is usually tempered by the other breed it's mixed with. If yours is, say, a pit / lab mix, then that changes everything, as labs are pretty much a "Man's best friend" kind of dog and will usually even out some aggresive tendencies the pit may have.

Either way, training is key.


thanks, tiki... the reason i lump the 2? its because of people and the ignorance of the breed. pitts and rotts always gets the bad rap DUE TO BAD OWNERS. would you feel differently if other people were trying to say you shouldn't get a rottie because of their background, their viciousness etc? as for the links sinjinhas provided, AGAIN i'll say where the hell were the owners?

take a look at this link: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/09/15/deadly.dogs.ap/index.html

mine for the record is a pit/boxer mix as of the moment. but leans more on the APB side.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content-nw/full/117/3/e374/F1

in this the leading dog bites were from crossbreeds, 2nd was german sheperds... just goes to show ANY DOG can bite....its the pitts and rotts that get a bad rap.

Any breed of dog has the possibility of biting.



wit that said: as i'll quote on the link:
It's not a Rottweiler problem or a pit bull problem," said Randall Lockwood, the Humane Society's vice president for research and educational outreach. "It's a people problem."

[sinjin]

...as for the links sinjin has provided, AGAIN i'll say where the hell were the owners?Right there in the room of course:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=275_1188725509&c=1

[CranBeree]

http://www.unchainyourdog.org/news/040918BlameOwner.htm


Many communities and cities believe that the solution to prevent severe and fatal dog attacks is to label, restrict or ban certain breeds of dogs as potentially dangerous, according to Delise. “If the breed of dog was the primary or sole determining factor in a fatal dog attack, it would necessarily stand to reason that since there are literally millions of Rottweilers, Pit Bulls and German Shepherd Dogs in the United States, there would have to be countless more than an approximate 20 human fatalities per year,” she said, adding: “Since only an infinitesimal number of any breed is implicated in a human fatality, it is not only unreasonable to characterize this as a specific breed behavior by which judge an entire population of dogs, it also does little to prevent fatal or severe dog attacks as the real causes and events that contribute to a fatal attack are masked by the issue of breed and not seriously addressed.”

Pit Bulls in particular have been in a firestorm of bad publicity, and throughout the country Pit Bulls often bear the brunt of breed specific legislation, Delise said. “One severe or fatal attack can result in either restrictions or outright banning of this breed (and other breeds) in a community. While any severe or fatal attack on a person is tragic, there is often a tragic loss of perspective as to degree of dangerousness associated with this breed in reaction to a fatality. Virtually any breed of dog can be implicated in a human fatality.”


http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/breedissue.asp

It is important to emphasize that the breed of dog is never the sole determining factor in a fatal dog attack. A fatal attack is always the culmination of past and present events that include: inherited and learned behaviors, genetics, breeding, socialization, function of the dog, physical condition and size of dog, reproductive status of dog, individual temperament, environmental stresses, owner responsibility, victim behavior, victim size and physical condition, timing and misfortune.

http://doglaw.hugpug.com/doglaw_092.html

Fatal dog attacks have been caused by, among other breeds, such small and apparently mild-mannered creatures as cocker spaniels and dachshunds.23 This argument has been largely unsuccessful. As the Colorado Supreme Court noted, it is generally recognized that when a legislature chooses to regulate a hazard, it is "not required to simultaneously regulate every similar hazard."


and here for good measure: http://www.realpitbull.com/temperament.html

[CranBeree]

Right there in the room of course:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=275_1188725509&c=1

if she was right there in the room, then she should have been able to CONTROL her dog.

and sinjin, by that clip you can tell she was a responsible owner huh?

[sinjin]

"Currently, U.S. shelters kill about 1.4 million dogs per year, including about 750,000 pit bulls and close mixes of pit bull.

About half of the dogs who were killed in 2004 were pit bull terriers, ANIMAL PEOPLE confirmed by surveying shelter directors in 23 representative metropolitan areas.

Salathia Bryant of the Houston Chronicle was shocked in February 2007 to discover that local shelter intakes of pit bulls had increased from 5% of all dogs in 2000 to 15% in 2002 and 27% in 2006. Actually this was right on the national norms found by ANIMAL PEOPLE nearly two years earlier.

Los Angeles residents were shocked in June 2007 when Department of Animal Regulation chief Ed Boks lamented that 40% of the dogs who were killed in the city shelters during the preceding year w