Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

[akrauth]

E kala mai, but I just wanted to tell you something that has happened when I've been in Hawai'i Nei. I've discovered that everybody who works in any store, hotel, restaurant, etc. says aloha to people who come in, no matter what ethnicity he/she is. Unknowingly, I've started blabbing in 'olelo, and most of those people don't answer. This disappoints me all the time. Think about it. What if a Hawaiian person working in a restaurant in Mexico said hola to a Spanish-speaking person, and then the Spanish person says something like, "COMO ESTAS HOY?" and the Hawaiian doesn't respond. Follow?

What do you think about this? Do you think the word aloha should only be said by native Hawaiians, or should everybody in Hawai'i Nei show their love for each other in 'olelo?

[scrivener]

Your example doesn't work. In Mexico, it's reasonable to expect that people you encounter speak Spanish. In Hawaii, it's unreasonable to expect that people you encounter speak Hawaiian. In fact, it's kind of silly. Where you live, how many people can you name who are fluent in a native American language?

[Leo Lakio]

'zis mean I can't say "ciao" as I depart from a gathering of friends, because I'm not fluent in Italian? (Or just because it sounds pretentious? :D )

[akrauth]

E Leo e, I'm a little confused. Are those friends Italian or not? If they don't speak it, they may think that it was weird. I don't know.

Scrivener, I know where you're coming from. I hadn't considered that, so mahalo nui loa.

Those said, I don't think I had gotten any input from you guys regarding the question I had asked in my original post. What do you have to say?

[Mike_Lowery]

Some Hawaiian words and phrases are used just as greetings in local business here. It's expected to not carry on a fluent Native Hawaiian conversation in commerce.

Basically, every area has unwritten rules for its lingua franca. You just need to know what to expect.

[Kaukura]

Yes and when that recorded annoucement on The Bus says "Aloha" as the doors open, that should not mean that the driver necessarily be conversant in Hawaiian either.

Sometimes greeting are used as a sign of respect or acknowledgement of a culture/language. i can't tell you how some korean restaurans owners faces light up when I say "kamsa Hamida" (spellng??), but I assure you they dont expect me to converse in Korean...

[tutusue]

'zis mean I can't say "ciao" as I depart from a gathering of friends, because I'm not fluent in Italian? (Or just because it sounds pretentious? :D )
E Leo e, I'm a little confused. Are those friends Italian or not? If they don't speak it, they may think that it was weird. I don't know.
I've heard "ciao" used in the U.S. for many decades amongst many different nationalities and no one thought it was weird. It has/had nothing to do with Italian friends.

[akrauth]

Hiki no, now a follow-up question. If I get back there and hear someone say aloha to me, do I have the right to say something like "aloha mai," "aloha nui," or an aloha greeting depending on what time of day it is and leave it at that until I hear the other person say something? That way, I know whether he/she knows a little more than that or not.

Also, whenever someone says mahalo, I respond with "'A'ole pilikia!" And when he/she says aloha meaning goodbye, I usually say a hui hou. Is that okay to do?

[Mike_Lowery]

Hiki no, now a follow-up question. If I get back there and hear someone say aloha to me, do I have the right to say something like "aloha mai," "aloha nui," or an aloha greeting depending on what time of day it is and leave it at that until I hear the other person say something? That way, I know whether he/she knows a little more than that or not.

Also, whenever someone says mahalo, I respond with "'A'ole pilikia!" And when he/she says aloha meaning goodbye, I usually say a hui hou. Is that okay to do?
I don't know if "right" is the correct term to use. But to answer your question, I would think those would be acceptable responses--they're pretty much everyday sayings.

Basic rule of thumb--if Hawaiian isn't your native language, just don't try too hard. Same would apply for any other language.

[akrauth]

I don't know if "right" is the correct term to use. But to answer your question, I would think those would be acceptable responses--they're pretty much everyday sayings.

Basic rule of thumb--if Hawaiian isn't your native language, just don't try too hard. Same would apply for any other language.

Don't try too hard to do what? Get everything pololei? I think before I speak.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I will tell you a story:

four teenagers are in a public restaurant; they are in pairs of two, and while they don't know each other, they do not realize that they are but one degree of separation. Two girls are learning ʻōlelo in high school; the other two are Hawaiian immersion students. The two newbies are going at it in Hawaiian; taking full delight in their abilities to describe and converse and babble. The other two, because they have been raised speaking/educated in Hawaiian, chill in English. Being bilingual is no big thang. But when the newbies are painfully obvious that they are newbies, the immersion girls giggle.

Sensing that they were being mocked, newbies get their feathers ruffled and start to talk smack about the other two girls (who they had no idea could rap them under the table). So the two H.I. girls get up to leave, because they are getting mad, but on the way out, they tell the sassier of the newbies that they are saying xyz wrong.

H.I. girls' experience goes around the school; everybody gets a good chuckle. Come to find out how each is tied to the other; newbie girls are *beyond* embarrassed and a reunion is coordinated to allow for apologies.

Cultural nuance and we are talking very bright girls who were sure that what they said was pololei. That is "try hard".

[Mike_Lowery]

Don't try too hard to do what? Get everything pololei? I think before I speak.
Don't try to hard to fit in. Even I don't know half of the Hawaiian words you use, and I lived here all my life.

[skeeterbess]

It didn't take me very long to start saying "aloha" and "mahalo" in response to the way that people use them with me, whether they're local folks or imports like myself. Most of the folks I deal with in the real estate community use them in business conversations. On the other hand, if we're talking about a real estate transaction, it's "land." If I'm talking with neighbors about our homeless population or Native Hawaiian issues, it's "aina." Pono, malama, kanaka, ohana - all words that I use sometimes in conversation, understanding that they all carry a greater weight than their most straightforwad definitions. "Equivalent" English words don't carry that weight or suit those converations. Am I wrong to use them at all? I have one haole friend who thinks so, most especially regarding "aloha" as a greeting. It has never been my intention to be disrespectful, but if I'm seen that way I need to make some changes. :confused:

[Peshkwe]

It didn't take me very long to start saying "aloha" and "mahalo" in response to the way that people use them with me, whether they're local folks or imports like myself. Most of the folks I deal with in the real estate community use them in business conversations. On the other hand, if we're talking about a real estate transaction, it's "land." If I'm talking with neighbors about our homeless population or Native Hawaiian issues, it's "aina." Pono, malama, kanaka, ohana - all words that I use sometimes in conversation, understanding that they all carry a greater weight than their most straightforwad definitions. "Equivalent" English words don't carry that weight or suit those converations. Am I wrong to use them at all? I have one haole friend who thinks so, most especially regarding "aloha" as a greeting. It has never been my intention to be disrespectful, but if I'm seen that way I need to make some changes. :confused:


I was gonna stay out of this 'cause I know zip about the Hawaiian language other than what I've picked up from phone conversations and reading (and typesetting stuff), but the bit I highlighted in your statement got the better of me.

Couple of questions....

1) Why?

2) Any Hawaiian tell ya to not speak the language?

[LikaNui]

Akrauth, there is NO hard and fast "one rule fits all" here. Every person will react differently.
You'll know you did right if you earn a smile.
You'll know you did wrong if you get whapped upside da head.
There's your answer(s).

[skeeterbess]

I was gonna stay out of this 'cause I know zip about the Hawaiian language other than what I've picked up from phone conversations and reading (and typesetting stuff), but the bit I highlighted in your statement got the better of me.

Couple of questions....

1) Why?

2) Any Hawaiian tell ya to not speak the language?

That's the thing. No Hawaiian has ever said anything about it or indicated in some way that I'd put my foot in it. My friend is sensitive to cultural issues, as I try to be. She thinks it is presumptuous to use it as a greeting because it means so much more and because I'm haole. Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians have greeted me with "aloha" instead of "hello" since the day I came here, as is the local custom. My intent, when I use it in the same manner, is to convey a warm greeting.

I know that it's also a very Hawaiian thing not to shame someone when they make a mistake, but I'd rather know and not continue to offend if that's what I'm doing.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Skeeter, you gotta play it as it comes.

About mahalo:

If someone mahalo me, I usually respond "'o ia" (which can sound like "oh yeah") with a nod and smile. Responses such as "ʻaʻole pilikia" are best when the gratitude extended is from saving that person from an embarrassment or offense; it makes light of the situation. "He mea ʻole" (as in, no big deal) is the most casual, but isn't always appropriate, because if the mahalo IS a big deal, then these last two responses can be construed as insulting. Pay particular attention to using these responses around kūpuna--in other words, don't.

When in doubt, respond to a mahalo with mahalo or aloha, a humble smile and eye contact. It suffices and is always appropriate.

[skeeterbess]

Skeeter, you gotta play it as it comes.

About mahalo:

If someone mahalo me, I usually respond "'o ia" (which can sound like "oh yeah") with a nod and smile. Responses such as "ʻaʻole pilikia" are best when the gratitude extended is from saving that person from an embarrassment or offense; it makes light of the situation. "He mea ʻole" (as in, no big deal) is the most casual, but isn't always appropriate, because if the mahalo IS a big deal, then these last two responses can be construed as insulting. Pay particular attention to using these responses around kūpuna--in other words, don't.

When in doubt, respond to a mahalo with mahalo or aloha, a humble smile and eye contact. It suffices and is always appropriate.

Mahalo. I've never used Hawaiian responses to mahalo because I knew there were different meanings for the different phrases but did not know what each means. My rule (for myself - I don't dictate to others) has been "if you don't know, don't fake it."

[Peshkwe]

That's the thing. No Hawaiian has ever said anything about it or indicated in some way that I'd put my foot in it. My friend is sensitive to cultural issues, as I try to be. She thinks it is presumptuous to use it as a greeting because it means so much more and because I'm haole. Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians have greeted me with "aloha" instead of "hello" since the day I came here, as is the local custom. My intent, when I use it in the same manner, is to convey a warm greeting.

I know that it's also a very Hawaiian thing not to shame someone when they make a mistake, but I'd rather know and not continue to offend if that's what I'm doing.


Innerestink...

If you really want to use the language without worrying about offense from misuse or mispronunciation, see about taking classes, getting a tutor, or at least listening to some language tapes and lots of music. Knowledge is always a plus in life.

Just curious...but does your sensitive friend know any of the Hawaiian language herself? I mean other than the stuff a tourist or newbie can pick up here and there like 'aloha', 'mahalo' etc. Has she made an attempt to learn?

Reason I ask is that I'm wondering which way the deep currents of her is fuss is flowing. Is it about you using the language 'cause you're haole = not from there, or haole = not Kanaka/brown skinned? If she's taken the time to learn the language and really TRULY understands the nuances, it's possible she's standing upright in her beliefs.

If she doesn't know and doesn't want to learn properly....well....ya might want to look with the deeper eyes and hear with the deeper ears to what she says and does.

[shen]

I can't really understand skeeterbess's friend's sentiment... Aloha is a warmer way of saying hello, it's hello that comes with a smile. Here in Texas, when I want to greet someone, 'hello' will do, but if I want to make a stranger smile when I pass, 'howdy' should be employed.

I wish I could take Hawaiian Language classes here... it makes me so sad not to! If I ever have a kid, i'm moving there right quick for immersion classes. I'm thankful for the common words my mom brought me up on, though. It does get a little bit confusing, as some of her loan words and phrases have... changed...

When, growing up, someone said 'i don't like the corn' at dinner, ect, mom (and by then, the rest of the family) would shout "MUSHVIKA!"
Mom insisted that it was Portguguese, and when I met my friend's Portuguese roomate, i just had to share. She looked at me like i'd used latin. I finally did some online digging last night and discovered 'Mais Fica!'
She uses other things from growing up, like bakatadi... I know what she says it means, but i dont know where she got it! 'baka' makes sense... but 'tadi??' i'm guessing it is another mispronounciation!

but at least I have my shaka and ahui hou straight!

[Leo Lakio]

She uses other things from growing up, like bakatadi... I know what she says it means, but i dont know where she got it! 'baka' makes sense... but 'tadi??' i'm guessing it is another mispronounciation!I think a more accurate representation in English might be "baka tari," but with transliteration of Japanese (or any language that doesn't use the same alphabetic characters as English), there can be a multitude of variations.
Unknowingly, I've started blabbing in 'oleloThis is the root of the problem, and why you are disappointed, `Alika. You are becoming more proficient in `olelo Hawai`i - and you expect others to match your skill level; you seem to think less of them for not doing so. Do not impose your expectations upon others so often, and you will not be as bothered by who they are and what they can do or not do.

We should use language to bring people of different backgrounds together in communication, not to separate and isolate them. Assume that any language you are learning (including your first tongue) will take one year longer than your lifespan to fully master.

[Glen Miyashiro]

She uses other things from growing up, like bakatadi... I know what she says it means, but i dont know where she got it! 'baka' makes sense... but 'tadi??' i'm guessing it is another mispronounciation!

I think a more accurate representation in English might be "baka tari," but with transliteration of Japanese (or any language that doesn't use the same alphabetic characters as English), there can be a multitude of variations.You'll get better Google results if you spell it "bakatare".

[Ms_Aloha_Nui]

I am enjoying this post......but I have always lived my the rule of RESPECT what is there....if you don't know how to use it, then DON'T. I think it is more insulting to hear any language being used improperly just because you are trying to fit in...if you really want to fit in, just listen and answer in the language that you are most comfortable/sure of.....SIMPLE.....

[skeeterbess]

Innerestink...

If you really want to use the language without worrying about offense from misuse or mispronunciation, see about taking classes, getting a tutor, or at least listening to some language tapes and lots of music. Knowledge is always a plus in life.

Just curious...but does your sensitive friend know any of the Hawaiian language herself? I mean other than the stuff a tourist or newbie can pick up here and there like 'aloha', 'mahalo' etc. Has she made an attempt to learn?

Reason I ask is that I'm wondering which way the deep currents of her is fuss is flowing. Is it about you using the language 'cause you're haole = not from there, or haole = not Kanaka/brown skinned? If she's taken the time to learn the language and really TRULY understands the nuances, it's possible she's standing upright in her beliefs.

If she doesn't know and doesn't want to learn properly....well....ya might want to look with the deeper eyes and hear with the deeper ears to what she says and does.

I took one class in Hawaiian a few years back. I don't seem to do well in learning languages. I was never able to learn French or music either, despite several years of classroom instruction in each - there's a missing cognitive link in my brain, I think. Words and phrases that flow around me in everyday conversation - yes; conversational use of a new language - not so much.

My friend has a better understanding of languages in general and the Hawaiian language in particular than I do. She has also had more exposure to Hawaiians and to Hawaiian culture in an academic setting, where mine has been a more casual exposure through friends and neighbors. She's very intelligent and very kind-hearted. I respect her opinions. We have frequent conversations about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behavior for us, as haoles living in Hawaii. These are not mere "academic" conversations. They come from our shared, heart-felt desire to repay the warm aloha with which we have been embraced, to return it in some measure. The respect we have for the people, the language and the culture compels us to want to do better, to be better neighbors, and one way I get better is by asking questions. :)

[Peshkwe]

I took one class in Hawaiian a few years back. I don't seem to do well in learning languages. I was never able to learn French or music either, despite several years of classroom instruction in each - there's a missing cognitive link in my brain, I think. Words and phrases that flow around me in everyday conversation - yes; conversational use of a new language - not so much.

I can understand this. I could understand spoken German when I was living there but I could never make my mouth work the language well enough to carry on a conversation. Shoot I have problems speaking English and from what I've seen some German words can rival Hawaiian words in length.

My friend has a better understanding of languages in general and the Hawaiian language in particular than I do. She has also had more exposure to Hawaiians and to Hawaiian culture in an academic setting, where mine has been a more casual exposure through friends and neighbors. She's very intelligent and very kind-hearted. I respect her opinions. We have frequent conversations about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behavior for us, as haoles living in Hawaii. These are not mere "academic" conversations. They come from our shared, heart-felt desire to repay the warm aloha with which we have been embraced, to return it in some measure. The respect we have for the people, the language and the culture compels us to want to do better, to be better neighbors, and one way I get better is by asking questions. :)

So if you and she really feel the warmth and 'get' the meaning, why is it "presumptuous" to use the language of the land when the understanding and knowledge is there for using it in the proper context and not be rude about it? I mean you understand the little you do know well and are careful to not jump ahead of your skill set...where is the harm in a meeting of the minds socially?

Just from personal observations, folks generally appreciate it when you can speak a little of their home lingo if it's done in an honest effort to get it right (and they can tell if you're straight up with the effort or not).

It just strikes me as being more on the rude side than the honoring side of things when you know the language but refuse to speak it....makes the other person have to 'come meet you' instead of you going to meet them, or at least meeting in the middle someplace.

[skeeterbess]

I can understand this. I could understand spoken German when I was living there but I could never make my mouth work the language well enough to carry on a conversation. Shoot I have problems speaking English and from what I've seen some German words can rival Hawaiian words in length.



So if you and she really feel the warmth and 'get' the meaning, why is it "presumptuous" to use the language of the land when the understanding and knowledge is there for using it in the proper context and not be rude about it? I mean you understand the little you do know well and are careful to not jump ahead of your skill set...where is the harm in a meeting of the minds socially?

Just from personal observations, folks generally appreciate it when you can speak a little of their home lingo if it's done in an honest effort to get it right (and they can tell if you're straight up with the effort or not).

It just strikes me as being more on the rude side than the honoring side of things when you know the language but refuse to speak it....makes the other person have to 'come meet you' instead of you going to meet them, or at least meeting in the middle someplace.

I have continued to use "aloha" as a greeting and continue to believe it's appropriate to do so, but with that small doubt still nesting in the back of my mind. Her thoughts on the matter originated with a conversation she had with a kupuna. This was concerning the layers and levels of meaning that are present in so many Hawaiian words and phrases. She concluded that it is wrong to ever use a word or phrase without understanding all of the possible definitions and nuances. I, having had different experiences and responses, believe in returning that particular word on the level that it's offered - as a warm greeting. That does not imply that I disregard deeper meanings, but rather that I use it in context.

Perhaps I should add that it comes out with a Southern drawl. I couldn't pretend to be something I'm not even if I wanted to - which I don't. I don't use those few words and phrases to pretend I'm Hawaiian or even "local," but more in a manner that reflects the thoughts of your final paragraph. When in Rome - honor the culture and custom. When in Hawaii ... :D

[Leo Lakio]

I think a more accurate representation in English might be "baka tari," You'll get better Google results if you spell it "bakatare".Oop - and I knew that, too (the AF says it regularly - though not aimed towards me :p ). Thanks for the correction, Glen.

[Peshkwe]

I have continued to use "aloha" as a greeting and continue to believe it's appropriate to do so, but with that small doubt still nesting in the back of my mind. Her thoughts on the matter originated with a conversation she had with a kupuna. This was concerning the layers and levels of meaning that are present in so many Hawaiian words and phrases. She concluded that it is wrong to ever use a word or phrase without understanding all of the possible definitions and nuances. I, having had different experiences and responses, believe in returning that particular word on the level that it's offered - as a warm greeting. That does not imply that I disregard deeper meanings, but rather that I use it in context.

Perhaps I should add that it comes out with a Southern drawl. I couldn't pretend to be something I'm not even if I wanted to - which I don't. I don't use those few words and phrases to pretend I'm Hawaiian or even "local," but more in a manner that reflects the thoughts of your final paragraph. When in Rome - honor the culture and custom. When in Hawaii ... :D



Yanno....unless you speak something day-in-day-out you aren't gonna catch all the nuances and meanings of any language that you haven't spoken in since birth. Shoot.... even word imagery or double entendres in english spoken by 'english from birth' speakers aren't caught or understood if the vocabulary isn't there. Going by your friend's line of reasoning, they should stop speaking english 'cause they just don't get all the subtle meanings.

Reminds me of a couple things....one was a gig being described (I had asked what the audience was like and the reactions to them and the other peeps playing) where the audience was a mix of tourists (and tourons), locals/residents and Hawaiians. He said the Hawaiian song being sung, if you translated it was about water falls, flowers and little birdies. The tourists listened politely but cluelessly to the song and watched an older Aunty dance Hula to it, the residents sang along... but the Hawaiians were rolling on the floor busting a gut laughing 'cause it was really a funny/raunchy ribald type song.

The other one was with my dad who went by Dick. He was asked why didn't he change to Rich or go by his full name Richard instead of Dick for work (he was Chief of Probation for eastern Michigan). He always said it was 'cause he knew where someone was coming from as soon as they said his name no matter who they were, convict or congressman.

[skeeterbess]

Yanno....unless you speak something day-in-day-out you aren't gonna catch all the nuances and meanings of any language that you haven't spoken in since birth. Shoot.... even word imagery or double entendres in english spoken by 'english from birth' speakers aren't caught or understood if the vocabulary isn't there. Going by your friend's line of reasoning, they should stop speaking english 'cause they just don't get all the subtle meanings.

Reminds me of a couple things....one was a gig being described (I had asked what the audience was like and the reactions to them and the other peeps playing) where the audience was a mix of tourists (and tourons), locals/residents and Hawaiians. He said the Hawaiian song being sung, if you translated it was about water falls, flowers and little birdies. The tourists listened politely but cluelessly to the song and watched an older Aunty dance Hula to it, the residents sang along... but the Hawaiians were rolling on the floor busting a gut laughing 'cause it was really a funny/raunchy ribald type song.

The other one was with my dad who went by Dick. He was asked why didn't he change to Rich or go by his full name Richard instead of Dick for work (he was Chief of Probation for eastern Michigan). He always said it was 'cause he knew where someone was coming from as soon as they said his name no matter who they were, convict or congressman.

You are blessed with the gift of being able to put things into their proper perspective. Mahalo for sharing it. Oh, and thanks for the giggles, too. :p

[shen]

Thanks for the insight on 'bakatare.' I'd looked through many Japanese dictionaries for "tari" and "tadi" seperately, figuring those would be easy to mix up, but now that it's 'tare...' easy! It means no less or more than I expected... pretty much any derivitive of baka.

funny story about it... a while back, my mom asked a Japanese friend's mom, an oooold Japanese lady, what it meant. She had a mix of shock and cute old lady laughter, and said, "iss like a CRAZY CRAP DROPPER!"