shooting down satellites

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Am I the only one who thinks the whole "hydrazine (http://starbulletin.com/2008/02/15/news/story01.html)" argument is for PR purposes?? I bet that sucker is calculated to land in a densely populated area, and if they don't whack it off-orbit now…

Go get 'em, Pearl Harbor!

[mel]

If the satellite could fit in the space shuttle cargo bay and if the space shuttle was a more reliable transport system, they could have used it to pluck the satellite out of orbit months ago and bring it back to earth.

That not being an option, I also echo the sentiment of "shoot it down".

[Random]

Am I the only one who thinks the whole "hydrazine (http://starbulletin.com/2008/02/15/news/story01.html)" argument is for PR purposes??
Well, it is a spy satellite. :p

Although I'm sure some NASA geek is going to come and explain why it uses such a toxic fuel.

[Leo Lakio]

You'd have to inhale a lot of concentrated hydrazine over an extended period, for it to do you any harm. It's the "spy" aspect (as Random noted) that explains the decision.

[nachodaddy]

You'd have to inhale a lot of concentrated hydrazine over an extended period, for it to do you any harm.


Uh......no.

Hydrazine is some nasty stuff. Google 'hydrazine' and 'msds'. And what you find on the internet is at best 35% active. Rocket fuel is typically 98-99.95%active.

It is used commercially as an oxygen scavenger in boiler systems. I can bring you some if you want to test your theory.

But I wouldn't recommend it.

[Leo Lakio]

From the EPA:Effects to the lungs, liver, spleen, and thyroid have been reported in animals chronically (long-term) exposed to hydrazine via inhalation.From Guy Raz's report on NPR:Hydrazine is a propellant fuel used aboard rockets. It's toxic — similar to ammonia or chlorine. But to die from hydrazine exposure would require standing around and breathing it in for hours. And it dissipates and evaporates rapidly.As one astrophysicist (name withheld by request) informed a bunch of us:Hydrazine is quite toxic, and the stated fear is that people coming into contact with hydrazine can get sick (and perhaps seriously ill). This is the same warning issued to the public when the Space Shuttle Columbia broke apart over Texas. Some pieces of the shuttle landed fairly intact, including a hydrazine tank. Hydrazine is, in fact, toxic, but it is also very volatile and unstable. It is unclear just how much of a danger the hydrazine poses. It breaks down readily, so even if it is spilled, there is probably little danger of long term environmental damage. If the tank ruptures during reentry, then the hydrazine is so volatile that it will be long since gone by the time the tank reaches the ground. If it ruptures on the ground, then the contamination is likely to be localized.That doesn't strike me as being enough of a danger to justify the military response. I'm much more likely to believe this is an opportunity to test the capabilities of our ballistic missile defense system, since prior testing was inconclusive, at best.

If that's the case, frankly, it does seem like a prime opportunity - but I would rather know about that, and not be told some flimsy overkill tale about public safety. No causal relationship between hydrazine and any health problems has ever been established, but anecdotal links have. However, those anecdotal links involved exposures over many days, weeks and months.

Joint Chiefs of Staff Vice Chairman Gen. James Cartwright cast the threat from the satellite this way: Even if the hydrazine were released, he noted, the effects would likely be mild -- akin to chlorine gas poisoning, which can cause burning in the lungs, and elsewhere. The area affected would be "roughly the size of two football fields [where you might] incur something that would make you go to the doctor."

[nachodaddy]

LOL Leo. Looks like you have been scouring the internet.

"breaks down readily" kinda like this?

N2H4 + O2 = N2 + 2H2O

It will suck all the oxygen out of any immediate space. Death most likely by asphyxiation, not from acute effects of hydrazine exposure. "dissipates and evaporates rapidly" makes it an even more lethal. As a vapor it is slightly heavier than air, so find a tall building if you are near the point of impact. Poor way to kill someone though as traces can be detected in the blood.

"volatile and unstable" is code for it has a good change of blowing up which is why it is used as a rocket fuel. Lots of things can cause it to spontaneously explode. Death by rapidly elevating body temperature.

I used to wear a hydrazine monitor in a previous life. Offer still stands. I think the point can be made with less than 50 ppm. Will need you to sign a waiver though. And a rewrite of your will :)

Now..... there is a lot more other things that can mess you up and we are around them almost every day. Even with all the molecule talk going around this is not about public safety. This situation is just a convenient reason to blow something up in space. Don't want this thing landing in the wrong place.

LOL again at you quoting someone from the JCS. You, of all people, should never trust something quoted from the JCS. "akin to chlorine gas poisoning" "incur something that would make you go to the doctor" LMAO.

Let me know if you have any other chemistry questions.

[glossyp]

I heard a bobblehead news reporter say something along the lines of: "Critics say it's only being shot down because it's a spy satellite and the US doesn't want the technology falling into the wrong hands." My first thought, "What, the critics want it to fall into enemy hands?", before I figured out that the so-called critics were actually complaining that the powers that be weren't being up front about the reason for shooting it down. My second thought was "This is cool, I hope it works."

[Leo Lakio]

LOL again at you quoting someone from the JCS. You, of all people, should never trust something quoted from the JCS. "akin to chlorine gas poisoning" "incur something that would make you go to the doctor" LMAO.Sorry - I was trying to turn to a variety of sources, and I thought the JCS (which I got from Fox News, of all places) would provide an "official" "administrative" "balanced" perspective to go up against a story quote from the lefties of NPR.Now..... there is a lot more other things that can mess you up and we are around them almost every day. Even with all the molecule talk going around this is not about public safety. This situation is just a convenient reason to blow something up in space. Don't want this thing landing in the wrong place.Hell, yeah - there's hydrazine in tobacco smoke, for that matter. My original point was that the "hydrazine" part of the story - as reinforcement of Pua`i Mana`o's thread-starter - is a very weak explanation for blowing up this failed satellite - and you seem to be in some agreement there (as highlighted above). I'd rather the administration announced that it was as you noted; I'd buy that explanation more. It would be more reasonable (imo) to say "we need to protect our technology" - it isn't about any information gathered by the satellite, since it didn't work once it went up.

(While writing this post, I see glossyp makes a similar point.)

[Nords]

Joint Chiefs of Staff Vice Chairman Gen. James Cartwright cast the threat from the satellite this way: Even if the hydrazine were released, he noted, the effects would likely be mild -- akin to chlorine gas poisoning, which can cause burning in the lungs, and elsewhere. The area affected would be "roughly the size of two football fields [where you might] incur something that would make you go to the doctor."
Well, a Marine nicknamed "Hoss" has a lot more credibility in that quote than in this unreleased first quote:
"Heh, ah allus wanted to shoot me one a' them!"

PMRF could have said "In a cost-saving measure, today the Navy announced they'll be shooting down one of NSA's satellites instead of launching their own target."

It's been nearly 14 years since USS LAKE ERIE subdued Aiea with just two rounds. I wonder if they'll ever stop hearing about that...

[Pua'i Mana'o]

wow. After reading the theories about spy intelligence falling into the wrong hands, I continue to be convinced that its about heading for some densely populated location, like the eastern seaboard or Europe. The potential for mass carnage will getcha front page headlines, even if they aren't going to specifically say so.

And speaking of not saying anything, notice the expected location of where it will currently land is NOT being publicized? How could they "not know" enough to recommend blowing it off-course so that they "would know"?

[Random]

And speaking of not saying anything, notice the expected location of where it will currently land is NOT being publicized? How could they "not know" enough to recommend blowing it off-course so that they "would know"?
Maybe we should ask Charlie Epps who has NSA clearance. :D

FWIW, it's more practice for the US Navy (who have been shooting down dummy rockets near Kaua'i).

Not like North Korea can hit us. :p :p

[glossyp]

Maybe we should ask Charlie Epps who has NSA clearance. :D

FWIW, it's more practice for the US Navy (who have been shooting down dummy rockets near Kaua'i).

Not like North Korea can hit us. :p :p
Unless you live on Guam.

[Random]

Unless you live on Guam.
And for that I thank my dad and the Sakada generation. :p

No offense to the people of Guam. I just won't forget you when you're gone.

[Amati]

Besides the other theories being tossed around here, how about adding in that maybe "we" just want to prove to "others" that we can shoot down a target, so don't mess with us. In other words, we'll still be here to retaliate if you try anything.

[craigwatanabe]

Because in proving our might, Russia will start to develop it's own defensive system and at that point here we go again with another arms race and another cold war.

We should have just shot it down quietly and then blame Iran for shooting down a US Dish Network satellite (hey DN has one broken satellite floating above our Southern skies right now). Then we could tell the world that all of Saddam's WMD were moved to Iran and was used to knock down HBO to punish the evil Satanic western empires. I Want my MTV!!!:cool:

[Nords]

Here's some interesting speculation from another discussion board:

http://www.satobs.org/seesat/Feb-2008/0337.html

A notice to aviators has declared a hazard in an area where the satellite will be pretty much overhead 5:30 PM HST Thursday 21 Feb. Of course this could just be practice or some other range operations but the track plots pretty nicely:

http://satobs.org/seesat_ref/06057A/USA_193_NOTAM_unverified.pdf

and other track info is here:
http://www.heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=29651&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=CET

Now all we have to figure out is whether LAKE ERIE is already underway and if the missile contrail can be seen from H-1 Ewa-bound during rush hour... assuming they shoot from the PMRF oparea off Barking Sands.

[helen]

Now all we have to figure out is whether LAKE ERIE is already underway and if the missile contrail can be seen from H-1 Ewa-bound during rush hour... assuming they shoot from the PMRF oparea off Barking Sands.

According to the PDF you found the time is Feb 21, 2008 between 2:30 - 5:00 UTC which in Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_zones) is -10 hours of UTC. So that would be on Feb 20, 2008 between 4:30pm - 7pm (HST).

It would seem from the notice that they would launch from around the PMRF area.

[Menehune Man]

So then...
If I understand correctly,
"They plan on shooting at it while it's somewhat near/above Hawaii?!!!"

YIKES! Don't mess up guys. :eek:

[Nords]

According to the PDF you found the time is Feb 21, 2008 between 2:30 - 5:00 UTC which in Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_zones) is -10 hours of UTC. So that would be on Feb 20, 2008 between 4:30pm - 7pm (HST).
It would seem from the notice that they would launch from around the PMRF area.
Wednesday, you're absolutely right.

[Bob P]

This is a message to China pure and simple. Some months ago the Chinese announced an ASAT capability. This is just the US answering.

[Bob P]

Because in proving our might, Russia will start to develop it's own defensive system and at that point here we go again with another arms race and another cold war.

We should have just shot it down quietly and then blame Iran for shooting down a US Dish Network satellite (hey DN has one broken satellite floating above our Southern skies right now). Then we could tell the world that all of Saddam's WMD were moved to Iran and was used to knock down HBO to punish the evil Satanic western empires. I Want my MTV!!!:cool:

Actually, Russia back when it was the USSR actually had deployed a working in-orbit ASAT system back in 1972 - getting there first with the tech - so this isn't a huge escalation - more like a quiet demo on a global scale along the lines of 'we've gone so far from the testing stage that we're willing to show the world that knocking down a sat is no big deal for us.'

[lavagal]

So with the possibility of an African American out of Hawaii with a Muslim monicker being elected President of the U.S. of A., or the possibility of a White American female being elected the President of the U.S. of A., is it possible the world will end tomorrow once they count the ballots in Hawaii from the Democratic caucus...and decide it's a good day to shoot down a satelite that's packing hydrazine?

[Pua'i Mana'o]

if that satellite is headed for Chicago or Dubai, then yeee-eh-heya.

Shewt it!

[Menehune Man]

So with the possibility of an African American out of Hawaii with a Muslim monicker being elected President of the U.S. of A., or the possibility of a White American female being elected the President of the U.S. of A., is it possible the world will end tomorrow once they count the ballots in Hawaii from the Democratic caucus...and decide it's a good day to shoot down a satelite that's packing hydrazine?


That was really funny! Thanks.

[Bob P]

So with the possibility of an African American out of Hawaii with a Muslim monicker being elected President of the U.S. of A., or the possibility of a White American female being elected the President of the U.S. of A., is it possible the world will end tomorrow once they count the ballots in Hawaii from the Democratic caucus...and decide it's a good day to shoot down a satelite that's packing hydrazine?

LMAO

That was good!:D

[lavagal]

Glad you folks appreciate my high-brow, sophisticated sense of humor. I just hope those sailors are great marksmen!!!:rolleyes:

[salmoned]

I think you guys read the announcement wrong - it's not the hydrazine itself that's the hazard, it's the large mass of the hydrazine tank [which may reach the earth's surface] that can pose the risk (as well as the combustion possibility).

[Pua'i Mana'o]

…especially if that large mass hits rush hour traffic in a city with two million citizens…

[Random]

So with the possibility of an African American out of Hawaii with a Muslim monicker being elected President of the U.S. of A., or the possibility of a White American female being elected the President of the U.S. of A., is it possible the world will end tomorrow once they count the ballots in Hawaii from the Democratic caucus...and decide it's a good day to shoot down a satelite that's packing hydrazine?
Not to hijack and dissect your humorous commentary...

Which part of Barack's name is Muslim? I thought both of his names (first and last) are rooted in Africa.

[Random]

…especially if that large mass hits rush hour traffic in a city with two million citizens…
One hopes it would land on the head of a annoyingly loud Shiite cleric in Iraq, and burn up the rest of his army.

[lavagal]

Not to hijack and dissect your humorous commentary...

Which part of Barack's name is Muslim? I thought both of his names (first and last) are rooted in Africa.

There are a lot of references and counter arguments to his having muslim roots, none of which I can verify or choose to dispute. My creativity was imagining a bunch of white men in the pentagon deciding the best day to shoot down a satellite and possibly having two very well qualified presidential candidates of the Democratic Party battling nearby, in Hawaii. Jokes suck when they get over analyzed, dontchathink? Gee, and I voted for him last night.

[Leo Lakio]

From Reuters:

A missile from a U.S. Navy warship hit a defunct U.S. spy satellite 133 nautical miles above the Earth in an attempt to blow apart its tank of toxic fuel, the Pentagon said on Wednesday.

It was too soon to tell if the fuel tank had been shattered in the operation over the Pacific Ocean, the Pentagon said in a statement, but a senior military source said initial indications suggested that goal had been achieved.

[Random]

Jokes suck when they get over analyzed, dontchathink?
Yeah, I like taking apart your joke. :p

BTW, I'm reminded of a segment from 30 Rock where the lady (not Tina Fey) mentioned that she like "Osama" (as in Barack Osama).


Gee, and I voted for him last night.
Who'd be a fool in Hawaii NOT to vote for him?

*glances at "superdelegate" Daniel Inouye* :p

ON-TOPIC...

Is it true they used a heat-seeking missile to shoot down the SPY(!!!) satellite?

Did you noticed that all the news mentioned it as a "SPY(!!!) satellite"? I'm like, "Sheesh! We heard it the first time!" :rolleyes:

[Menehune Man]

Well...
They say that the shot was good, so there's nothing to worry about.
Bits and pieces should burn up during re-entry and not strike ground/water.

Hope so! :eek:

[Random]

Well...
They say that the shot was good, so there's nothing to worry about.
Bits and pieces should burn up during re-entry and not strike ground/water.

Hope so! :eek:
Well, if one piece makes through atmospheric re-entry intact, one hope it would land on a certain fugly cleric somewhere in Iraq. :p

[Menehune Man]

"Pentagon confirms spy satellite destroyed"

Link to KGMB9 news
http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4335/42/