Olympics - boycott, play on, move it?

[Ron Whitfield]

China, IMO, didn't deserve The Games and should now suffer the consequences of losing them, and 'losing face' BIG TIME for the many obvious reasons.
To let them carry on with them now is simply another pat on the back for murder and worse.
Maybe The Flame having such trouble staying lit as it treks along will finally (as tho mass murder isn't enuf...) get a message across to some to re-think their positions on allowing these bums anything but total condemnation.

[Leo Lakio]

You should also consider creating a poll with these kinds of topics, Ron. (But please - keep 'em anonymous.)

As someone who has been a vocal & financial supporter of Tibetan causes for thirty years or so, you can probably guess my opinion.

[craigwatanabe]

I'm surprized the Olympic committee chose China for this year's Olympics. I guess they must have thought if in the limelight, China would address the human rights issues plaguing them now.

[Ron Whitfield]

I did consider the poll, Leo, but am more interested in the coments/debate over the matter.
If someone would like to put it up, no sweat.

[dyasu]

Not only is the tension and violence bad, but the environment over there is embarrasing. As a country I wouldn't want to host something with as much worldwide media attention as the Olympics without first cleaning up the place.

China devoted something like $300 million to clean up the city for the Olympics, but most critics thought it wasn't enough.

If you have to devote that much cash just to CLEAN up for something like this, I don't think you should have qualified for it to begin with.

[Frankie's Market]

I don't really have a strong opinion, either way. But why is it that people are only concerned about it now? China was awarded the Summer Games 6 years ago. And their record of human rights violations go back way, WAY before that.

[LikaNui]

Of your three choices, I say play on or move it (which is not a feasible option), but don't boycott -- that would only hurt the athletes who have worked so incredibly hard to get to the Olympics.
I agree it never should have gone to China in the first place, and that it's far too late now to move it. Shame on the Olympic Site Search Committee.

[helen]

By the way does the International Olympic Committee have a rule that says the host nation needs to have good human rights record when it host the event?

[Walkoff Balk]

On the newsclip, protesters were shown mobbing a little woman carrying an Olympic torch. Then, I read where protesters false crack a wheelchair athlete. So, that's where the Superferry protesters went. Stay Classy, Protesters.

[Random]

I don't really have a strong opinion, either way. But why is it that people are only concerned about it now? China was awarded the Summer Games 6 years ago. And their record of human rights violations go back way, WAY before that.
Because since the torch have been lit -- and the international media is sure to follow it -- now is the time to bring China's human right violation into the spotlight.

[Leo Lakio]

But why is it that people are only concerned about it now? China was awarded the Summer Games 6 years ago. And their record of human rights violations go back way, WAY before that.And many of us spoke up in protest about the decision way, WAY before now, just as many of us spoke up in protest before the Iraq debacle began. Sometimes, it really sucks to be right. Being able to say "we told you so" gives no pleasure.By the way does the International Olympic Committee have a rule that says the host nation needs to have good human rights record when it host the event?Do we need a rule to tell us when to help support our oppressed sisters & brothers?

[craigwatanabe]

We gave China six years to clean up their act on Human rights, we're in the 11th hour now and still nothing.

[joshuatree]

Play on, the spirit of the Olympics is to foster good sportsmanship and better relations, not a time to bicker. I find the protesters who need to physically attack the torch bearer distasteful.

And for those who so strongly believe Tibet needs to be freed, I ask you what you think of the American Southwest? I don't think Absolut (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080408/us_nm/mexico_absolut_dc;_ylt=AhT09gpuPbabqku7UcYs1eKs0NU E) should be pulling their ads, since they aren't even posted in this country. If you feel the Southwest belongs to the US yet Tibet needs to be freed, what standards are you using if any?

[craigwatanabe]

Play on, the spirit of the Olympics is to foster good sportsmanship and better relations, not a time to bicker. I find the protesters who need to physically attack the torch bearer distasteful.

And for those who so strongly believe Tibet needs to be freed, I ask you what you think of the American Southwest? I don't think Absolut (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080408/us_nm/mexico_absolut_dc;_ylt=AhT09gpuPbabqku7UcYs1eKs0NU E) should be pulling their ads, since they aren't even posted in this country. If you feel the Southwest belongs to the US yet Tibet needs to be freed, what standards are you using if any?

Forget the SW, what about Hawaii! At least the US has decent human rights laws that protects Native Americans and Hawaiians...China doesn't believe in human rights it seems and Tibet is the glowing example of how bad it can get.

[joshuatree]

Forget the SW, what about Hawaii! At least the US has decent human rights laws that protects Native Americans and Hawaiians...China doesn't believe in human rights it seems and Tibet is the glowing example of how bad it can get.

Definitely something they can work on, but then again, the current gov't is only about 59 years old? When the USA was 59 years old, that was around 1835? Blacks were still slaves, women were still property, and we were busy hunting down the Indians and taking their land. So if things were taken into perspective......

[craigwatanabe]

Definitely something they can work on, but then again, the current gov't is only about 59 years old? When the USA was 59 years old, that was around 1835? Blacks were still slaves, women were still property, and we were busy hunting down the Indians and taking their land. So if things were taken into perspective......

But the difference is the way we as a world community communicates to one another. We are a global community now with advanced means of telling one's stories.

In journalism, there was a quote that said, "A govenment that controls the media, controls it's people" China loves to control it's media that's why they're stuck in the 19th century when it comes to human rights issues.

[joshuatree]

But the difference is the way we as a world community communicates to one another. We are a global community now with advanced means of telling one's stories.

In journalism, there was a quote that said, "A govenment that controls the media, controls it's people" China loves to control it's media that's why they're stuck in the 19th century when it comes to human rights issues.

If journalism was 100% controlled, we wouldn't be even getting any footages from Tibet. Like I said, still needs a lot of work. I just don't agree with turning the Olympics into something political. It wasn't a poor choice in letting the games be held there. You want them to progress, you include them, not exclude them.

And like you just pointed, despite all the advanced means of telling one's story, Hawaii and the Southwest still belong to the US.

[craigwatanabe]

If journalism was 100% controlled, we wouldn't be even getting any footages from Tibet. Like I said, still needs a lot of work. I just don't agree with turning the Olympics into something political. It wasn't a poor choice in letting the games be held there. You want them to progress, you include them, not exclude them.

And like you just pointed, despite all the advanced means of telling one's story, Hawaii and the Southwest still belong to the US.

But there is forward movement.

[Leo Lakio]

And for those who so strongly believe Tibet needs to be freed, I ask you what you think of the American Southwest?So..."the American Southwest" was a united and independent nation for several centuries, with an internationally-recognized government that was overthrown as recently as 1949? Wasn't it sometime in the 20th Century that most of the communities of the world recognized that invasion of another country's sovereign borders was no longer acceptable? Wasn't that a prime reason for the Second World War?

The "59 year old" perspective is irrelevant; if you could apply it evenly, you could argue over the illegitimacy of just about any point in history - including one Indian band's massacre of a neighboring tribe. CW's comparison to Hawai`i would be a more representative point. But that's a discussion for another time and place - it gets us too far off-topic here.

[joshuatree]

So..."the American Southwest" was a united and independent nation for several centuries, with an internationally-recognized government that was overthrown as recently as 1949? Wasn't it sometime in the 20th Century that most of the communities of the world recognized that invasion of another country's sovereign borders was no longer acceptable? Wasn't that a prime reason for the Second World War?

The "59 year old" perspective is irrelevant; if you could apply it evenly, you could argue over the illegitimacy of just about any point in history - including one Indian band's massacre of a neighboring tribe. CW's comparison to Hawai`i would be a more representative point. But that's a discussion for another time and place - it gets us too far off-topic here.

I think you should ask how a Mexican feels about the American Southwest.

And since you think Tibet was an independent nation until 1949, Tibet was a part of China until 1911.

The 59 year old perspective is very relevant because you judge where a typical govt should have progressed by a certain amount of time. Otherwise, why do we have perspectives on where a 2 year old should have developed by then, or where a 10 year old should be by then? Why have these comparisons instead of simply accepting each individual at whatever rate of progress they are at?

The Olympics is just not a place for politics. Let it be what it is.

[Leo Lakio]

And since you think Tibet was an independent nation until 1949, Tibet was a part of China until 1911.Ask that question of a Tibetan, and see how they answer. If you are referring to the era of Manchu rule (1644-1911), asking the Qing army to help settle border disputes does not make Tibet "part of" China.

Even the Atlas of Chinese History Maps (published by Chinese Social Science Institute in Beijing) depicts Tibet as an independent country.

Putting that all aside, as history can always be interpreted from multiple perspectives - do you deny the human rights abuses currently occurring in Tibet? Should genocide be ignored for the sake of the Olympics?

If the Olympics can be a place for commerce, as it has become, then it becomes a place for politics as well. It hasn't been simply about pure athletic competition for a very long time. Remember Berlin - the 1936 Summer Games?

[joshuatree]

Ask that question of a Tibetan, and see how they answer. If you are referring to the era of Manchu rule (1644-1911), asking the Qing army to help settle border disputes does not make Tibet "part of" China.

Even the Atlas of Chinese History Maps (published by Chinese Social Science Institute in Beijing) depicts Tibet as an independent country.

Putting that all aside, as history can always be interpreted from multiple perspectives - do you deny the human rights abuses currently occurring in Tibet? Should genocide be ignored for the sake of the Olympics?

If the Olympics can be a place for commerce, as it has become, then it becomes a place for politics as well. It hasn't been simply about pure athletic competition for a very long time. Remember Berlin - the 1936 Summer Games?

So how does the American army make the Southwest or Hawaii a part of the US?

I'm sure you will find American historical maps showing California as Mexico.

If you've read my previous posts, I said they have much to work on but the Olympics is no place for it. What about Gitmo for us? You think genocides don't occur because of us such as our appetite for oil?

Since when has politics in the Olympics done any good? It only harms the athletes. What does tackling the torch bearer going to accomplish, especially when a lot of them aren't even PRC athletes.

[Frankie's Market]

Since when has politics in the Olympics done any good? It only harms the athletes.

I have to agree with you on that.

In fact, every time politics gets injected into sports, bad things are usually the result. The 1980 US-led boycott of the Moscow Summer Games only led to the Soviet Union returning the favor 4 years later in Los Angeles. Even worse was the tragedy in the Munich games of '72, when 11 Israeli athletes were kidnapped and eventually killed by terrorists trying to get some 234 Arab prisoners released.

What do some people want? The entire world to be singing "Kumbaya" before any Olympics games are held? Well, you're going to be waiting a loonnnggg time for that, friends.

In the meantime, some very memorable international sports moments took place, even when controversies roared in the political arena. Remember the Miracle On Ice? The USA hockey team upset the heavily favored USSR, even while the Soviets were being condemned by the international community for invading Afghanistan. Or how about Ichiro and Team Japan beating off a determined comeback effort from the Cuban national team in the first World Baseball Classic championship in San Diego, despite a long-standing US economic embargo against Cuba?

What a shame it would have been for either of those great sports moments to have been denied just to make the political protestors/boycotters happy.

Let's not mix sports and politics. Just my opinion.

[Leo Lakio]

Since when has politics in the Olympics done any good? It only harms the athletes.I have to agree with you on that.I'll admit, I'm in agreement there, too. It's just that the two have been mixed for so long, it's naive to think there's any way to change that now. But yes, you are correct. Unfortunately, politics are such a major part of the selection process (why do you think the Games were granted to China in the first place? Economics ... Trade ... Commerce ... Politics ... all bedfellows.)

However, while I am in favor of using the opportunity of the spotlight being on China to shine it into the dark crevasses, I do not feel a boycott would do any good at this point.

[Frankie's Market]

What also gets me is this. China has long had a history of human rights violations. That fact didn't stop the US from engaging with China as a trade partner. Just last year alone, our country has racked up a trade deficit with China to the tune of $260 billion dollars.

So is this supposed to be how it works?

1) It's okay for our govt. to sell dollars and T-Bills to China.

2) It's okay for American companies to import goods made with cheap Chinese labor.

3) It's not okay for American athletes to compete in the Beijing Olympics.

We're going to have our Olympic athletes make a sacrifice in order to make some "political statement," but at the same time, not have our govt. and big business to do the same?

My reaction to that?

Boooooo!!!!!

[Walkoff Balk]

Former pro football player Herschel Walker is one of the Olympic torch carriers in SF. I don't think any protesters is going to mess with him. He's built like the Hulk. You don't want to see him angry. From the newsclips, I only see the protesters attack female Olympic torch runners.

[Random]

Former pro football player Herschel Walker is one of the Olympic torch carriers in SF. I don't think any protesters is going to mess with him. He's built like the Hulk. You don't want to see him angry. From the newsclips, I only see the protesters attack female Olympic torch runners.
Protestors are doing it all wrong. Makes them look like incompetent fools. It's one thing to show China's violence and human right violations toward Tibet, it's another when you're doing violence to someone else in order to convey your message.

As for Herschel Walker, I liked him in Cowboy uniform, but I'd be willing to take him down. Just let me get my crowbar.

[Leo Lakio]

Protestors are doing it all wrong. Makes them look like incompetent fools. It's one thing to show China's violence and human right violations toward Tibet, it's another when you're doing violence to someone else in order to convey your message.Can you hear me applauding you from across the Pacific?

[craigwatanabe]

Can you hear me applauding you from across the Pacific?

I was wondering what that sound was. I thought it was my knees creaking:D

[turtlegirl]

Protesters in San Francisco??
No way, that'll never happen!! ;)

What was the torch comittee thinking!?! If I was them, I would've held the US portion of the torch run in Anchorage Alaska, or Springfield Kansas, or Mobile Alabama. Not SF!

[Frankie's Market]

Ask that question of a Tibetan, and see how they answer. If you are referring to the era of Manchu rule (1644-1911), asking the Qing army to help settle border disputes does not make Tibet "part of" China.

Even the Atlas of Chinese History Maps (published by Chinese Social Science Institute in Beijing) depicts Tibet as an independent country.

Putting that all aside, as history can always be interpreted from multiple perspectives - do you deny the human rights abuses currently occurring in Tibet? Should genocide be ignored for the sake of the Olympics?

One significant voice from Tibet, namely the Dalai Lama, made clear his view and support for China hosting the Olympics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/11/world/asia/11dalai.html?ref=asia

The Dalai Lama said Thursday that he supported Beijing’s hosting of the Summer Olympics, but he insisted that pro-Tibet demonstrators had the right to voice their opinions during the international torch relay as long as they refrained from violence.

[Leo Lakio]

One significant voice from Tibet, namely the Dalai Lama, made clear his view and support for China hosting the Olympics.
The Dalai Lama said Thursday that he supported Beijing’s hosting of the Summer Olympics, but he insisted that pro-Tibet demonstrators had the right to voice their opinions during the international torch relay as long as they refrained from violence.
As well as his support for the demonstrators - yet he has always disavowed violence. Just like Gandhi & Rev. King. Let us hope his life does not end as did theirs.

[Walkoff Balk]

Would the protesters attack an Olympic torch carrier if he's Muhammad Ali? What would happen to the protesters if they lay a hand on him?

[Random]

Can you hear me applauding you from across the Pacific?

I was wondering what that sound was. I thought it was my knees creaking:D
I thought it was craigwatanabe's knees, too. Give me chills. *shudders in disgust *

:p

[Random]

What would happen to the protesters if they lay a hand on [Muhammad Ali]?
Then simply I switch side and support the cleansing of Tibet.

[joshuatree]

Then simply I switch side and support the cleansing of Tibet.

In a way, that's the effect these protests have on me. The aggressiveness of the protesters on the athletes is a turn off. It's not that I'm against the right to protest, it's just how they are being carried out.

[Random]

In a way, that's the effect these protests have on me. The aggressiveness of the protesters on the athletes is a turn off. It's not that I'm against the right to protest, it's just how they are being carried out.
Makes you wonder what they DID NOT learn from their spiritual leader.

What do you do when someone joins your peaceful protest but takes an aggressive, violent approach?

[Leo Lakio]

Makes you wonder what they DID NOT learn from their spiritual leader.

What do you do when someone joins your peaceful protest but takes an aggressive, violent approach?Once again, you nailed it here, Random. Those who use violence in support of a non-violent movement have not yet learned.

In answer to your question, you tell them: "no - that is not the correct answer." And you encourage them to walk alongside you, and learn.

[Random]

In answer to your question, you tell them: "no - that is not the correct answer." And you encourage them to walk alongside you, and learn.
Yeah, but you'll end up keeping him on the leash, proverbially speaking. It's even worse if he bring his friends, and you only have two eyes.

[Leo Lakio]

In answer to your question, you tell them: "no - that is not the correct answer." And you encourage them to walk alongside you, and learn.Yeah, but you'll end up keeping him on the leash, proverbially speaking. It's even worse if he bring his friends, and you only have two eyes.Not exactly sure I follow your line of thinking here; can you help me out?

[Random]

Not exactly sure I follow your line of thinking here; can you help me out?
I mean, you HOPE he can learn if you encourage him to walk alongside you. Then again, it can be "in one ear, out the other."

The last thing I want to do at a protest rally is "babysit" potential troublemakers.

[Leo Lakio]

I mean, you HOPE he can learn if you encourage him to walk alongside you. Then again, it can be "in one ear, out the other."Thanks. Once again, you are absolutely correct. You can only offer the guidance by example - you can't force anyone to take it. The Dalai Lama himself has said: "If anything I have said is useful to you, good. If not, just forget it."