How many lawyers in Hawaii?

[craigwatanabe]

Wow after reading this article (http://starbulletin.com/2008/04/21/news/story02.html)in today's SB, this statement dropped my jaw:

The new rule is already having an impact. Preliminary estimates show that 3,300 attorneys, nearly 47 percent of the lawyers in Hawaii,

And that's JUST 47% of them.

That's a lot of lawyers!:eek:

[GeckoGeek]

If 3300 is 47%, then there are 7021 total.

[Vanguard]

.546% of the population of the State of Hawaii! (source: census.gov)

[oceanpacific]

Too many ................. :eek:

[Glen Miyashiro]

Lawyers per capita, by state (http://www.averyindex.com/lawyers_per_capita.php). We're tied for #17.

Then again, the American Bar Association says (http://www.abanet.org/marketresearch/2007_Natl_Lawyer_FINALonepage.pdf) that we only have 4,138 lawyers -- so somebody's numbers are fishy because 3,300 is not 47% of 4,138.

[Da Rolling Eye]

That's a lot of lawyers!:eek:
Maybe they're counting lawyers who aren't qualified to practice law in Hawai'i, but still live and work here?

Some don't practice law as we know it. Many work for mainland companies like insurance companies and only do research type of work even though they have licenses to practice law in other states. With no desire to practice law in Hawai'i, they're not required to take the state bar exams, but may still list their occupation as a lawyer.

Would be interesting to see where the stats are coming from. Kinda strange that the numbers are so far apart.

[Karen]

Answer to this thread's subject...

enough to screw in a lightbulb. LOL..

[craigwatanabe]

rim shot please :D

[kani-lehua]

what was it now? 400 something FLDS kids with 300 something lawyers representing them? someone's going to make some moolah. or should i say, someone has moolah?

[cynsaligia]

i know there are lawyers who post on HT. one of you, pls correct me if i am wrong in any part of anything i say in the following post (either here or in PM)...

the short, possible answer to the disparity question is this:

the ABA stats count only active lawyers. the article might be counting active and inactive lawyers.

the longwinded, possible answer includes my statement directly above and the blather i type below (and much of what follows is based on my remembrance from my time as a hawaii state bar assn staff member):

you can be an active or inactive member of the bar. active status bar members are (doh!) actively practicing law, and either are part of a firm or are solo practioners or work for the government, like the pros atty or atty gen's offices. you are only able to practice law if you are active status, with exception of inactive attys who are allowed to do only pro bono work. there is also a registration fee that any lawyer who wants to have active status must pay (about $300 plus? every year).

there are two types of inactive lawyers - (1) those who can only do pro bono work, as i mentioned above or (2) those who cannot practice law in hawaii bcs they are (a) makediedeyed; (b) surrendered their license voluntarily--such as those attys who passed the bar in hawaii and then moved to another state and may or may not be practicing in their new home state; (c) disbarred (d) suspended for reasons such as non-payment of registration fees or for disciplinary reasons.

then there are pro hac vice attys who are actually licensed in another state but allowed, along with a licensed hawaii atty, to work on a hawaii case (you might want this to happen if you are a client and the expert lawyer in the specific subject that the case is about is actually from another state; the local atty knows hawaii state law).

i might not have covered all the bases but i think i got most of them.

the following (http://www.courts.state.hi.us/page_server/Attorneys/Membership/5510341B1B8FED19EBAF905302.html) is from the hawaii judiciary site:

Hawai`i Lawyers - Complete list of individuals with current license status.
Lawyers Not Authorized to Practice - Inactive, suspended, disbarred, or resigned.
Lawyers Not Authorized to Practice Except in Pro Bono cases.
Pro Hac Vice - Attorneys licensed in other jurisdictions and allowed to appear in a Hawaii court, with local counsel, for a particular case. See Rule 1.9 of the Rules of the Supreme Court of the State of Hawai`i.

on a side note, i'm not surprised there are so many attys in hawaii. because of familial pressure to have a career of prominence, a lot of people become lawyers bcs they can't think of anything else to do. as a result, in my opinion, honolulu has proportionally more mediocre or crap lawyers than other cities of its size.

ask eric. he counts some very unexceptional attorneys as his drinking buddies. if we want credible legal advice, we go to MY lawyer friends, not his. ;)

[GeckoGeek]

Answer to this thread's subject...

enough to screw in a lightbulb. LOL..

With enough to spare to sue:

- The bulb manufacture for a defective product
- The building architect for placing the bulb in a difficult to get to place creating a hazard in it's replacement
- The latter manufacturer for failing to make their product wheelchair accessible.

:D

On a more serious note, how many engineers are there in the state?

[Karen]

Gecko, LOL you did improve upon my idea.

Engineers? Funny! I'm married to one and I bet there's uh........well, every field has them, so about as many as there are lightbulbs.

The article linked in this thread opener did cover something that we've so far ignored and that is that reportedly a lot of attorneys have objected to being made by law to report their amount of pro bono work. I did read the article quickly but if I got the gist of it, I do agree with one quoted in the article that was surprised so many of them don't like the reporting because it isn't as if they are expected to name who the work was for or anything, just log and then report the number of hours.

Attorneys indeed are a dime a dozen and never mind all of the jokes about them, there are plenty of honorable ones. They are living in a free country and every one that I've been and still am close friends with, including all the way from high school and one that served in the navy with hubby, and one I was buds with in the seventies, and two that are old family friends....all do free work for family and friends, as well as help people in their churches, community centers and one at a shelter for the abused, in San Antonio.

Why would they mind simply reporting their number of hours? Seems it would be easy. WORK....for an attorney can be simply giving advice or coaching someone through an issue. It doesn't necessarily even have to include their name on a letter, etc.

I've had an attorney in my home here on many occasions. I've asked for advice before, was that work for him? I know he gave me the same information he would have had I been sitting in the office instead of here. What about our fifteen minute phone conversations which were free advice? This stuff adds up fast and only the hours of it must be given, so what's the big deal per the article and attorneys objecting?

I think it's cool that the requirement by law to report the number of hours is said to be increasing the amount of time they are, collectively donating.

[Nords]

I think it's cool that the requirement by law to report the number of hours is said to be increasing the amount of time they are, collectively donating.
I think it's an indication of human psychology that the numbers didn't start to go up until they had to be advertised reported, although that rise could be because nobody audits the reported hours. And now along with the "I billed more than you" competition we can have the "I did more pro bono than you" which can't be a bad thing.

ask eric. he counts some very unexceptional attorneys as his drinking buddies. if we want credible legal advice, we go to MY lawyer friends, not his. ;)
Sounds like you both need a new set of friends!

I think lawyers are like police officers. It seems that when you want one you can't find one, but when you don't want one they're everywhere.

As for the number of engineers... like the other punchline, "close enough for all practical purposes".

[GeckoGeek]

The Engineers reference was based on a claim that there is a higher ratio of lawyers to engineers in the US while in Japan the ratio is reversed. The implication being that engineers create things, while lawyers redistribute, but do not manufacture wealth.

As for reporting? I donno. I'm not sure what they are required to do. It doesn't sound too bad, but then how would you like it if you were required to report how many trips you took in your car, or went to the supermarket. It's not that the information is that sensitive, but that you'd have to track it and the forced requirement to report something. It smacks of oppressive government. I know if I was a lawyer, I'd resent having to track and report it.

Or maybe I'm missing the whole point of the argument.

[Karen]

Nords, oh there's really no question about it, you are right in that it's the psychology of now being forced to report. Surely some attorneys weren't doing or weren't yet...doing community service, etc.

Gecko, here's a small quote from the article showing us what is required of them,

"This year, for the first time, lawyers in Hawaii each had to report how many hours they donated in pro bono, or free, legal services annually.
It was not a popular requirement. The Hawaii State Bar Association had weighed in against it. But the state Supreme Court adopted the rule in October, and it took effect as lawyers re-registered to practice law in 2008.

Chief Justice Ronald Moon says he was surprised that the idea was controversial. The new rule does not force lawyers to do volunteer work, just to report their donated hours."

No, I don't think you're missing the point of the argument. We are regulated more and more. I know a stellar, male elementary school teacher that retired teaching just a couple of years after his district tried more than once to get him to become a school principal. He said they had taken all of the joy out of teaching with all of the rules and regs, the dang paperwork, etc.....he now puts luggage in the bellies of planes out on the tarmac, I think it's called. In between flights he plays basketball.

Govt. regulations and requirements keep increasing. Your point is well-taken.

[helen]

Chief Justice Ronald Moon says he was surprised that the idea was controversial. The new rule does not force lawyers to do volunteer work, just to report their donated hours."

This brings an interesting question, how do they report it? If it's a simple form like the name and address of the lawyer and a small box that says how many hours that lawyer has spent doing pro bono work then I don't see what is the issue all about. But if the report that is submitted needs more detail information like who they contacted/represented, outcome of the case (if any) and other stuff that lawyers do that we non-lawyers don't know about then maybe I can understand the plight.

[Karen]

Helen, agreed. it says right here that the pro-bono reporting is kept confidential and will only be disclosed when speaking collectively about the subject.

http://www.hsba.org/resources/1/Documents/Rule%2017%28d%29%20Amendment.pdf

[cynsaligia]

I think lawyers are like police officers. It seems that when you want one you can't find one, but when you don't want one they're everywhere.

my dad was a lawyer. i work closely with our hospital's lawyers. many of our friends are lawyers. we have no problem finding a good lawyer whenever we need one. i've never found them to be everywhere when i didn't want them, unless "they" were my boss (and i've worked for enough crap lawyer bosses).

after i get my MBA, i might just go and get my JD, too...

in the meanwhile, if ever you need a lawyer, feel free to PM me or eric. we'd be happy to suggest a good one to you, in complete confidentiality. :D

[Leo Lakio]

the ABA stats count only active lawyers. the article might be counting active and inactive lawyers.That was my thought as well, as the AF, who passed the bar in Hawai`i many years ago, is inactive.This brings an interesting question, how do they report it?Lawyers & firms keep extremely detailed records of their work time, in order to keep track of billable time, pro bono work, continuing education as required by law, etc.

[cynsaligia]

Lawyers & firms keep extremely detailed records of their work time, in order to keep track of billable time, pro bono work, continuing education as required by law, etc.

...using software like this (http://www.abacuslaw.com/products/timeandbilling.html).

i've officially been out the industry for five years but how i understand it works is a lawyer picks out a client/matter to work on, goes to her puter screen to her time tracking program, finds the corresponding client/matter, & starts the clock. if she is interrupted from her work by a call from another client, then she stops the clock, quickly finds the proper client/matter on the time tracking program, starts the clock, has the conversation, stops that clock. when she goes back to the initial client/matter, she starts that clock again.

at the end of the month, accounting is able to pull everyone's billable/non-billable times for by each client/matter, blahblahblah.

so each atty in town, unless they're a solo practitioner who can't afford such software & has to do it manually (or has a wife who feels that a wardrobe from chanel is more important than such software--i speak from experience), has a pretty accurate idea of how many pro bono hours they're working, for which client, etc.

[GeckoGeek]

so each atty in town ... has a pretty accurate idea of how many pro bono hours they're working, for which client, etc.

That's true for practicing attorneys working in such firms. But are there others which do not keep track that doing so would be a burden? I've got a friend who has passed the bar but works in the court system. I doubt if she does any tracking of hours.

I'll have to ask her about her feelings on this.

[Walkoff Balk]

Enough to take the case of who's the rightful owner of a soccer jersey.