Offensive terms to Hawaii people

[NoCal Boy]

I try to be sensitive to the fact that despite having visited Hawaii regularly all my life, first with my kama'aina family and now with my Waipahu-born wife, I'm still no local boy. (I'm NoCal Boy, get it??? OK never mind.) I like to think that I've got a pretty "local" perspective (for a "Chinese haole", as my wife so endearingly refers to me) but I certainly make mistakes.

I know that you don't call Hawaii residents Hawaiians (unless they are, of course) like we call California residents Californians. I know "haole" isn't always a harmless word, despite how some members of my family like to throw it around without discretion. But I need to check in with all of you on one word right now:

Mainland.

I know some Hawaii people do not like this term used, instead preferring "continental United States" or the like. But I know for a fact from my family, my wife's and the many kamaaina in my life that "mainland" is used by Hawaii people every day with no offense taken that the term is in some way belittling to Hawaii. Is it a matter of whether the person using the term is from Hawaii or not?

I was composing another post earlier and thought twice about its use. I just want to know if I can feel confident using the term in this community without offending anyone. It's really a laziness issue more than anything: I'm not opposed to using "continental United States" but it's so unwieldy and longer to type!

[Karen]

Wow, serious? You know locals that use "continental US" instead of "mainland?" I'm in my 15th. year living here, am native American, not native Hawaiian but then, as you alluded to many people born and raised here aren't called "native Hawaiian." Anyway, I have been totally comfortable with the term "mainland" and like you, am rushed and won't bother saying "continental US" cuz people here haven't been saying it to me.

I would encourage you to call it anything you like. something like this, a mere term, in my opinion is not something you just give a tinker's cuss what other people like...I mean how on earth could someone "get offended" over the term mainland??

Like mama used to say, if they did...get offended in, well, they have the same skin to get glad in, again.

[NoCal Boy]

To turn it around, recently a UH classmate of my wife's came for a visit. While relating his day over dinner he made an innocent reference to a "Chicano" man he'd seen. I almost spit out my lasagna. I had no idea that it's not unusual for Hawaii people to refer to those we commonly call "Latino" here that way. I don't know if Latinos today take offense to the term, but it's certainly not heard much around these parts anymore.

Brought to mind an old SNL (circa late 70's) sketch involving a Puerto Rican gang. Whenever anyone was asked why they did something, he would reply:

"Cuz I'm a Chicano!
And to be a Chicano means to ride up and down the boulevard
In big cars, low to the ground!!!"

That's all I remember after all these years and I still chuckle over it.

[tutusue]

You'll see some HTers refer to CONUS instead of mainland. CONUS...get it?! It's certainly shorter than "continental United States". I always say "mainland", more out of habit than anything else. I'm not offended by either term however I'm originally from the main...err...conus. :D

[cyleet99]

Funny, I was just thinking about this today; I caught myself saying "the States" instead of saying mainland. When I used "states" before, I had people look at me funny and say, yeah, like we are not in the states?? So I felt like mainland was the proper word to use.

I'm just going back to saying South Carolina from now on. :(

[kani-lehua]

people get offended?! huh? mainland is what i use.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Saying that America is the "Mainland" implies that we're an island chain "just off the coast" of the Main Land. The Caribbean islands are "just off the coast" of America. England is "just off the coast" of Europe. Japan is "just off the coast" of Asia.

We're not just off the coast, we're in the middle of the biggest ocean on the planet, at least 2500 miles away from anywhere else.

That's why some people -- like me -- prefer not to use the term "mainland" to refer to America.

[cyleet99]

I agree that Hawaii is not "just off the coast," but Hawaii is one of the United States of America, no matter how far away it is.

So what would be best so as not to offend?

[cyleet99]

I'm likin' CONUS....

[sansei]

:o hi this is sansei and i've lived here since we've moved here from the big island in 1968 and i've lived here in honolulu since and i went from elementary school to high school and i was always considered a japanese and not an american of Japanese extraction so im considered myself an islander not a hawaiian so i thought to share this true story with everyone.i hope im not offending anyone by this posting,if i am,im truly and humbly sorry.:O(

Well thank's for your time:o

[MyopicJoe]

people get offended?! huh?

Such a concern is surprising to us locals, but we've had the advantage of growing up immersed with the culture. Without effort we know what's taboo and what's no big deal.

My family's Asian. My wife's haole. She's smarter than me. She's more socially skilled. But in front of my parents she'll say something well meaning, but word it in such a way that I cringe and have to hurry up to cover for her. I may be of the lesser sex, but I trump her when it comes to Asian etiquette.

Of course there will be people who are offended by the word "mainland", but I think in most cases it's annoyance rather than offense being taken.


On a side note:

My wife calls soda...pop. She used to get creeped out when kids called her Aunty. She refers to Uncle Ben's as...rice. She used to pour milk in her rice. Where she's from, their milk comes in plastic bags.


(I'm NoCal Boy, get it??? OK never mind.)

haha, nice one :)

[NoCal Boy]

Saying that America is the "Mainland" implies that we're an island chain "just off the coast" of the Main Land.

--snip--

That's why some people -- like me -- prefer not to use the term "mainland" to refer to America.

First, I've never heard that the use of "mainland" implied that Hawaii or any other chain is "just off the coast." Like Tutu, I suspect most people use it out of habit, like I do since I've heard it used all my life.

Second, I know I, and most people with any familiarity with the Islands wouldn't differentiate them from the rest of "America", as you have twice in your own post. Are you saying you prefer to use "America" over "mainland"?

So maybe it's not offense as much as annoyance, as Joe says. I'll apologize in advance for any future annoyances of this type, but please know that there is no malice intended. CONUS is a good alternative, but I suspect that I'll continue to use "mainland" out of habit until I'm convinced it's truly offensive to the majority.

[Keanu]

I stopped using the term "mainland" a long time ago because quite frankly, the ConUS isn't my mainland. My sister lives in California and my in laws in New York but everything else is here in Hawaii. The fact that the other 49 states are an ocean apart isn't enough of a reason for me to call the ConUS the mainland. I'm not offended by the term but I know many who would be.

[scrivener]

I get what the big deal is over "mainland," but whatever. It's the geographic MAIN part of the United States.

CONUS is bulky and stupid-sounding, no matter how you write it (conus, ConUS). Seriously, I have only seen it in print, but if I hear it spoken I am likely to choke. And is it CONUS or the CONUS? It is aesthetically displeasing to these ears. Talk about your offensive terms. That term offends every sensibility I have.

The continent or the continental United States work for me. I've used those in speech and in text, and in formal writing, I think continental United States is the only way to go.

[timkona]

How about 'The lower 48'?

I love rice in a bowl, in a bath of milk, with a spoon of sugar.

Etiquette is something that I don't understand very well. Most especially when it clashes with sensibility or logic. I wish more people would spend their lives being less offended. Falls in line with the notion of political correctness, which is also silly.

It was easy for me to stumble verbally at a house I lived in when I first moved here 15 years ago. They were very Japanese, and laughably egocentric. It came to a head one day when I was taking a verbal beating, in a supposedly light-hearted way, about 'stupid haole', and brought up the subject of how smart the Japanese were in World War II. LOL

Needless to say, I moved soon after that.

[tutusue]

[...]She used to pour milk in her rice.[...]
I still do! Occasionally. As a kid on the mainUS (:D) I often had Cream of Wheat and Cream of Rice cereals for breakfast. Too mushy for me. Once out on my own I decided to use regular rice instead of the creamed variety. Loved it as something with texture is what appealed to me. Then I got on a nutrition kick and subbed the white rice with brown rice. That, with milk and honey and a side of half a papaya, became my breakfast of choice.

Okay...okay...I'm Irish. That's my only excuse! :p

[Leo Lakio]

There was a bit of discussion here (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=9436&page=2) on HT a couple years ago (starting with post 43, then carrying on from post 57), about this very topic.CONUS is bulky and stupid-sounding, no matter how you write it (conus, ConUS). Seriously, I have only seen it in print, but if I hear it spoken I am likely to choke. And is it CONUS or the CONUS? It is aesthetically displeasing to these ears. Talk about your offensive terms. That term offends every sensibility I have.It goes along with a series of abbreviations such as:
SCOTUS (Supreme Court Of The United States)
POTUS (President Of...you get the point)

We used these in NPR broadcasting rundowns for many years, too - but no, they were never spoken as such, except in show-planning sessions.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

when I am being conversational, I use 'North America' and I am lighthearted about it. I grew up calling it the mainland. I grew up considering myself as being part oriental, too. I never thought my Pake blood was "Asian".

In typing, I learned to use CONUS because that was how my husband's reserve unit referred to it.

[Karen]

"Of course there will be people who are offended by the word "mainland", but I think in most cases it's annoyance rather than offense being taken."

Myopic, I think you nailed it here. Sure some things like certain language terms can be "annoying" to others, but worrying about "offending" does seem an exaggeration, to say the least.

Some people can get "offended" too easily.

[Leo Lakio]

Some people can get "offended" too easily.I don't "get offended," I "take umbrage."

Same thing, but much more pretentious. :p

[MyopicJoe]

I love rice in a bowl, in a bath of milk, with a spoon of sugar.

Then I got on a nutrition kick and subbed the white rice with brown rice. That, with milk and honey and a side of half a papaya, became my breakfast of choice.

Heh heh, I guess my wife isn't the only one! She also likes to put butter in her rice. :6

I grew up considering myself as being part oriental, too. I never thought my Pake blood was "Asian".

I'm used to calling myself Asian. I wouldn't be bothered with someone calling me Oriental though.

I remember once someone didn't like being called Oriental. They said, "I'm Asian. Rugs are Oriental." I suppose this person felt the use of Oriental objectified people? Supposedly Oriental is too Eurocentric.

Whatever. It's the tone behind the word that matters to me.

[tutusue]

when I am being conversational, I use 'North America' and I am lighthearted about it. I grew up calling it the mainland. I grew up considering myself as being part oriental, too. I never thought my Pake blood was "Asian".[...]
This reminds me of a doctor's appt. I had and, appropriate to the conversation, he referred to himself as "Oriental". That caught me off guard as I hear and use the word "Asian". Then I realized that it's probably a generational thing. When I was a kid, "Oriental" was the non-discriminatory word of choice. This particular doc was probably 15 years older than I. I can't remember when "Asian" became the predominant reference but I do know it goes back to at least 1978 when I moved to Hawaii. Can't remember if the shift took place prior to that when I lived on the conland! :D

Kinda reminds me of the non-discriminatory Negro>black>African American shift. Generational, I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Karen]

Leo, I hear ya. ;)

Me, I just grin and tell them how *I* would say it, and keep the air light and no stinky-eye sort of thing.

[tutusue]

Heh heh, I guess my wife isn't the only one! She also likes to put butter in her rice. :6[...]
<whisper> Me, too! </whisper> But I've gotten away from adding butter, instead adding Bragg's Amino Acids! :D

Really!

[Karen]

Alright, Sue!! I use Braggs raw, apple cider vinegar daily.

An old book of theirs that I found recently says that they exercised regularly on a downtown beach. Did you ever run into them and their exercise class?

[tutusue]

Alright, Sue!! I use Braggs raw, apple cider vinegar daily.
Me, too! I was having terrible reflux and tried all the rx's, purple pill and otherwise, to cut back on acid production. I didn't like those. Than a naturopath put me on slippery elm powder and, more recently, ACV because she suspected lack of acid production. She was right! Same symptoms. That surprised me.
An old book of theirs that I found recently says that they exercised regularly on a downtown beach. Did you ever run into them and their exercise class?
Waikiki, Fort Derussy beach. Paul Bragg's daughter, Patricia (http://www.bragg.com/bragglifestyle/ftderussyclass.html), is still involved when she's in town. Now that I'm within walking distance I think I'll go check it out! Thanks for the reminder, Karen!

</thread hijack!>

[MyopicJoe]

<whisper> Me, too! </whisper> But I've gotten away from adding butter, instead adding Bragg's Amino Acids! :D

Really!

Haha. My wife's part Welsh. Perhaps it's like being Irish?

[Karen]

Sue, I am sorry too that we hijacked, so I started this on auntie's "dieting and staying healthy" thread.



Me, too! I was having terrible reflux and tried all the rx's, purple pill and otherwise, to cut back on acid production. I didn't like those. Than a naturopath put me on slippery elm powder and, more recently, ACV because she suspected lack of acid production. She was right! Same symptoms. That surprised me.

Waikiki, Fort Derussy beach. Paul Bragg's daughter, Patricia (http://www.bragg.com/bragglifestyle/ftderussyclass.html), is still involved when she's in town. Now that I'm within walking distance I think I'll go check it out! Thanks for the reminder, Karen!

</thread hijack!>

[kani-lehua]

I still do! Occasionally. As a kid on the mainUS (:D) I often had Cream of Wheat and Cream of Rice cereals for breakfast. Too mushy for me. Once out on my own I decided to use regular rice instead of the creamed variety. Loved it as something with texture is what appealed to me. Then I got on a nutrition kick and subbed the white rice with brown rice. That, with milk and honey and a side of half a papaya, became my breakfast of choice.

Okay...okay...I'm Irish. That's my only excuse! :p

almost sounds like rice pudding minus the cinnamon and vanilla. yum!

[Frankie's Market]

CONUS is a good alternative, but I suspect that I'll continue to use "mainland" out of habit until I'm convinced it's truly offensive to the majority.

I suspect that the majority of locals will share that sentiment. Yes, "mainland" carries ethnocentric connotations. But that habit is ingrained, now and even in future generations. Talk to some elementary school kids and see how many use the term "mainland" vs CONUS.

But at least, there appears to be some progress being made in more people using the term "neighbor islands" instead of "outer islands."

[craigwatanabe]

But at least, there appears to be some progress being made in more people using the term "neighbor islands" instead of "outer islands."

That's a good point because from the perspective of any of the islands, any other island is the neighboring island. The term "outer island" seems so Honolulu-centric as does the term Mainland making Hawaii seem so insignificant to the rest of the states. But then again that may be a good thing.

But Tim, only in Alaska can you use the term Lower 48. Here it obviously would be the Upper 48 but that seems as bulky as Scriv's opinion of CONUS.

For me I succumb to using the term Mainland.

But getting back to the thread title, to me the worst thing you can tell people from Hawaii is, "Well on the mainland we do it differently":rolleyes:

[Leo Lakio]

But getting back to the thread title, to me the worst thing you can tell people from Hawaii is, "Well on the mainland we do it differently":rolleyes:One step worse: "On the mainland, we do it better."

[Karen]

No worse than going to Texas and telling them/us how things are done in Hawaii. :D Texas and Hawaii have something in common that no other state can claim, and it be true. Both states were originally their own nation/country.

What this thread is actually alluding to is that people can and DO get offended, but that most of us just shrug off ignorance because most people don't mean harm when displaying it, and we're all ignorant about something, at sometime.

Even some dictionaries refer to Hawaii...when the word "mainland" is looked up. So, either some dictionaries were compiled by ignorant and sometimes offensive professors, or that using the word mainland when in Hawaii ain't as ignorant as it seems to some people.

[Walkoff Balk]

Body language might come into play in being offensive. Former UH football player Reagan Mauia punched a guy in Miami walking past him. There must have some "stink eye" going on for that to happen. That's no excuse, but if you grow up here, you never give the "stink eye" or "you like fight" happens.

[Peshkwe]

If you go by the number of states clumped together and call it 'The 48'.

If someone asks where are you from do a 7 of 9 type thing? Like I'm a troll from 26 of 48.

[timkona]

Never used to be offensive to Hawaiians to show them new ideas and technologies. Kamehameha saw tall sailing ships, with cannon and muskets, and you know what he said........

"I'll buy two." :D

:cool:

[lensperson]

Hi there,
As I understand the matter, the term "Haole" was originally applied to off islanders and meant the "empty" or "powerless" ones.
They were perceived to have little spiritual content and thus lacking in Mana
Kinda reminded the early Hawaiians of the "Leathermen" as seen in the movie "Barbarella" :)
Kind Regards,
Chris

[Glen Miyashiro]

Hi there,
As I understand the matter, the term "Haole" was originally applied to off islanders and meant the "empty" or "powerless" ones.
They were perceived to have little spiritual content and thus lacking in Mana
Kinda reminded the early Hawaiians of the "Leathermen" as seen in the movie "Barbarella" :)
Kind Regards,
ChrisSee this thread: "Meaning of the Word 'Haole'?"
http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=1768

[matapule]

While relating his day over dinner he made an innocent reference to a "Chicano" man he'd seen. I almost spit out my lasagna. I had no idea that it's not unusual for Hawaii people to refer to those we commonly call "Latino" here that way. I don't know if Latinos today take offense to the term, but it's certainly not heard much around these parts anymore.

Malo'e lelei

I have to disagree on this.

I grew up in the Central Valley of California. My high school buddies were Mexican Americans, Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans, and Armenian Americans. I was Anglo American. We all hung out together. We were very fortunate to grow up in a very tolerant melting pot. They were and still are my very good friends.

Mexicans that were born in the US are referred to as "chicano" by both Mexicans in the US and Mexico. It is merely descriptive because the culture is somewhat different and the slang is different. My Mexican buddies are proud to be Chicanos. It is a perfectly acceptable term to Mexicans of any birth. "Latino" is a less acceptable term to them, because it tends to homogenize a very diverse cultural heritage in Central and South America. For example, a Costa Rican would not like to be called a Latino.
They are Costa Ricans or even better yet, they call themselves "Ticos" which means anyone who was born in Costa Rica regardless of their cultural heritage.

I lived in Tonga for two years. Tongans used the word "palangi" to describe me, much like the word "haole" is used in Hawaii. "Palangi" means "touch the sky." When Capt Cook first "discovered" the Friendly Islands, the first thing the Tongans saw was the tall masts and sails of his ship that appeared to "touch the sky." Therefore palangi was used to describe any Anglo visitor to the islands. It has neither a good or bad meaning. It is just a description, it is what it is.

Currently, I live in Mexico. The term "gringo" or "gabacho" is often used to describe Americans. Some of my American friends take offense to the word, even though we often use it to describe ourselves. Gringo is fine with me.

When in high school, we used to call each other by names that might be considered offensive to some in the various cultures. My Chicano buddies would sometimes call me "pinche" and I wont even begin to translate that on this family oriented List. Sometimes my Sansei Japanese friends would refer to one of their own as "FOB" (Fresh Off Boat). But it was all in good fun and we knew what was in each others hearts.

It all depends how you say it. You can call me a "dog" with either a smile or a sneer on your face and it takes on two completely different meanings. So the iintent is more important than the word itself.

And it also depends on your attitude. Sometimes people are always looking for a way to be offended. It is just not important to me.

I am not offended by being called a haole. I call myself a haole when in Hawaii. Call me anything you want.....but please say it with a smile on your face and aloha in your heart. I look forward to the day when I will be called kama 'aina haole and I will be proud of it.

I could be wrong about all this. I have been wrong many times in the past. But hey, life is good.

Ofa 'Atu
Mui Houma

[Bob P]

I don't "get offended," I "take umbrage."

Same thing, but much more pretentious. :p

LMAO!!!!!:D

[Karen]

Matapule, award winning post here that you wrote! Wow, thanks for explaining and I agree very much with you about the words, the labels of themselves are not offensive, etc. without the defining attitude they are used with. (again, that's why it's a dang miracle we don't have more wars of words on these forums because we use words here and can't see the smile or lack of, etc)

Sending you aloha huggz, Texas style of course :)

[kani-lehua]

Matapule, award winning post here that you wrote! Wow, thanks for explaining and I agree very much with you about the words, the labels of themselves are not offensive, etc. without the defining attitude they are used with. (again, that's why it's a dang miracle we don't have more wars of words on these forums because we use words here and can't see the smile or lack of, etc)

Sending you aloha huggz, Texas style of course :)

ditto to karen's post.

[Sprite]

people get offended?! huh? mainland is what i use.

I'm with you Kani-Lehua! I'm born and raised here and never use any other word but mainland.

It has taken me a long time over recent years to learn not to say "outer" islands. I've broken myself of that and try to be island-specific. However, mainland is the only word I know, it is the only word I have ever heard and if it's insulting to anyone, it's insulting to those on the mainland, I would think. That's how I see it anyway.

I've never even heard the term CONUS. It sounds like some kind of Conan movie or something. :D

[timkona]

I'm curious to find out if anybody has any commentary on my last post. Used to be, in Hawaii, long time ago, that folks who lived in a stone age reality were eager for the new technologies and ideas that were coming in. (Religion and disease excepted, of course.)

I've read that Kamehameha himself loved gunpowder, and all the things that it does. And did not his wife embrace the new religion, for better or worse. And did not their progeny embrace western style clothing, world travel, international politics, land ownership, electricity in Iolani Palace before the White House even had it, etc etc......all notions unheard of before 1778.

So I would like to know when modern residents of the Hawaiian Islands abandoned the thought processes of their ancestors when it comes to the phrase "We don't care how you did it somewhere else", when history clearly shows that folks in Hawaii used to love new ideas and technologies.

Somebody please defend the modern kneejerk xenophobia embodied by that phrase.

[sinjin]

I'm curious to find out if anybody has any commentary on my last post. Used to be, in Hawaii, long time ago, that folks who lived in a stone age reality were eager for the new technologies and ideas that were coming in. (Religion and disease excepted, of course.)

I've read that Kamehameha himself loved gunpowder, and all the things that it does. And did not his wife embrace the new religion, for better or worse. And did not their progeny embrace western style clothing, world travel, international politics, land ownership, electricity in Iolani Palace before the White House even had it, etc etc......all notions unheard of before 1778.

So I would like to know when modern residents of the Hawaiian Islands abandoned the thought processes of their ancestors when it comes to the phrase "We don't care how you did it somewhere else", when history clearly shows that folks in Hawaii used to love new ideas and technologies.

Somebody please defend the modern kneejerk xenophobia embodied by that phrase.Interestingly, Europeans were able to make use of gunpowder without feeling compelled to become Chinese. Ingrates.

[Leo Lakio]

I'm curious to find out if anybody has any commentary on my last post.Well, since you clearly crave the attention for your post... :p

My comment is this: you were asking about ideas and innovations, and that's not what the thread was about - it was about terminology (specifically, the word mainland) and how people in the Islands felt about it.

So maybe the reason no one commented on your post was because you were off-topic. ;)

[timkona]

I see your point Leo, and I'm trying to listen.

Generally speaking, "This is how we do it on the mainland" is perceived as offensive in Hawaii and never used to be offensive, years ago. So when did that idea change, and why. And since it is perceived as offensive, then my post is only slightly off target. Would be silly to start a new thread just to explain the terms in this thread.

[Leo Lakio]

Generally speaking, "This is how we do it on the mainland" is perceived as offensive in Hawaii and never used to be offensive, years ago.Can't help you there, sorry. I'll have to take your word on it not having been offensive in the past.

[Keanu]

I see your point Leo, and I'm trying to listen.

Generally speaking, "This is how we do it on the mainland" is perceived as offensive in Hawaii and never used to be offensive, years ago. So when did that idea change, and why. And since it is perceived as offensive, then my post is only slightly off target. Would be silly to start a new thread just to explain the terms in this thread.


John Young and Issac Davis would not be considered "mainlanders" in the context of this thread. Young and Davis were Europeans. Therefore, whatever point you were trying to make using Kamehameha as an example is invalid.

[timkona]

It's most certainly easier to tear at the edges of the fabric of my main idea, rather than to try to delve into the xenophobia that is displayed by the phrase, or the roots of why it might be offensive, or when it started to change.

Leo, I presume that by Kamehameha stealing one ship, and killing all the crew save one, and purchasing another ship, that he must have been intrigued by the technology, and open-minded to the new ideas contained within.

[TuNnL]

Interestingly, Europeans were able to make use of gunpowder without feeling compelled to become Chinese. Ingrates.LOL! I can see that so far, your response has gone right over tim’s head. :rolleyes:

[Leo Lakio]

Leo, I presume that by Kamehameha stealing one ship, and killing all the crew save one, and purchasing another ship, that he must have been intrigued by the technology, and open-minded to the new ideas contained within.My friend, I believe you may have been aiming your reply towards Keanu's post, not mine.

[Keanu]

It's most certainly easier to tear at the edges of the fabric of my main idea, rather than to try to delve into the xenophobia that is displayed by the phrase, or the roots of why it might be offensive, or when it started to change.

Leo, I presume that by Kamehameha stealing one ship, and killing all the crew save one, and purchasing another ship, that he must have been intrigued by the technology, and open-minded to the new ideas contained within.

The ship that you are referring to (The Fair American) was attacked by a North Kona chief named Kame'eiamoku and his men, not Kamehameha. Kamehameha later used the Fair American's swivel guns and canon and kept Isaac Davis (the lone survivor of the ship) to train his warriors in the use of the guns but he did not participate in or order the attack on the Fair American.

Hawaiian ali'i desired foreign goods because these goods gave them status and power over their rivals. Maybe I'm not simple-minded enough to understand whatever point you were trying to make by using Kamehameha's interest in foreign goods as an example of why Hawaiians of today should appreciate someone from the ConUS, ConUS, ConUS telling us about how things are done back on the ConUS, ConUS, ConUS?

[timkona]

<< Big Sigh>> :cool:

ay yai yai

[Leo Lakio]

<< Big Sigh>> :cool:

ay yai yaiNow, there's a convincing argument. :D