Women...know your limits!

[MyopicJoe]

Please heed this important public service announcement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU

"Look at these venomous harridans. They went to university. Hard to believe they're all under 25."


I remember back in high school. The girls in my class were very intelligent, but they hid it by playing dumb. It made me sad. I suppose people don't grow into their own skin until their 30s. Confidence borne from self knowledge is very attractive.

I used to play an online role playing game (DAoC for those in the know). My friends needed someone to play a healer type character so I volunteered. Back then I couldn't wrap my mind around the idea of a male healer so I created a female avatar (yes, I am aware there's such a thing called a Male Nurse. haven't decided they truly exist, yet). There wasn't a lot of voice communication over the internet back then, so it was easy to pass yourself off as a female player.

Being treated as a woman was very educational. Let's just say I quickly learned how to dodge the "A/S/L" question and fend off the endless line of male suitors. A box of honey-roasted-almond Godiva truffles to all the HT ladies for putting up with us men.

When it came to playing the game, I found most guys didn't overtly say gals had no skill. Rather, the guys just lowered their standards. When a guy screwed up, the other guys would chew him out and point out what he did wrong. When I screwed up they just typed, "Damn it, woman!" and then laugh it off.

[cyleet99]

('Scuse me while I go pluck my beard.....:D It has only grown thicker with age. HeeHee!)

I know when I was in college (let's just say early 80's) the crowd I was with did not hide anything (much to the chagrin of the local boys, who were on the lookout for a "southern belle.") But we were the literature/history/journalism crowd, and it was South Carolina.

[cynsaligia]

Please heed this important public service announcement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU

"Look at these venomous harridans. They went to university. Hard to believe they're all under 25."


I remember back in high school. The girls in my class were very intelligent, but they hid it by playing dumb. It made me sad. I suppose people don't grow into their own skin until their 30s. Confidence borne from self knowledge is very attractive.

I used to play an online role playing game (DAoC for those in the know). My friends needed someone to play a healer type character so I volunteered. Back then I couldn't wrap my mind around the idea of a male healer so I created a female avatar (yes, I am aware there's such a thing called a Male Nurse. haven't decided they truly exist, yet). There wasn't a lot of voice communication over the internet back then, so it was easy to pass yourself off as a female player.

Being treated as a woman was very educational. Let's just say I quickly learned how to dodge the "A/S/L" question and fend off the endless line of male suitors. A box of honey-roasted-almond Godiva truffles to all the HT ladies for putting up with us men.

When it came to playing the game, I found most guys didn't overtly say gals had no skill. Rather, the guys just lowered their standards. When a guy screwed up, the other guys would chew him out and point out what he did wrong. When I screwed up they just typed, "Damn it, woman!" and then laugh it off.

maybe i'd find that clip funny if i didn't know that there are still too many people in this world who truly believe that's how women should act. *shrug*

[LonLeroux]

Joe, you've succeeded in adding quite a bit of sexy-points to your resume. There is nary a quality more appealing than respect.
Really, what irritates me the most is when men treat us as if we are children or idiots. I wish I knew where this assumption that we're somehow magically below them in every way came from...

Frankly, I think a lot of that stems from male insecurity, which is still everywhere. Think about it...the next time you're out and about, count how many things look suspiciously phallic. Compensating?

[MyopicJoe]

('Scuse me while I go pluck my beard.....It has only grown thicker with age. HeeHee!)

I know when I was in college (let's just say early 80's) the crowd I was with did not hide anything (much to the chagrin of the local boys, who were on the lookout for a "southern belle.") But we were the literature/history/journalism crowd, and it was South Carolina.

Oh noes! Yet another one of those university edumicated wumen who can put a coherent thought together. It's like matter and anti-matter mixing. Head for dem thar hills!

On a side note, Cindy, I can't comprehend how women can stand plucking their eyebrows. A long time ago I got tired of shaving, and thought I'd try plucking my beard. I was on my knees by the fifth hair. I just don't have any self-inflicted-pain tolerance (which I think you need to want to have babies ;) ).

maybe i'd find that clip funny if i didn't know that there are still too many people in this world who truly believe that's how women should act. *shrug*

Yeah Cyn, it's easier for me to laugh at that clip because I'm not a woman. When I watch it I'm not reminded of painful memories, because I'm a man. I can sympathize, but I'll never know.

My little foray into a woman's world, via online gaming, is like a reporter who lives among the homeless for a story. Yes, they can gain more insight than a colleague who hides in a nice air conditioned office, but they'll never know what it's truly like to be homeless. If they feel overwhelmed, the reporter knows they have an ejection chord they can pull and they'll land safely in their home. They don't have the sense of dread that the homeless suffer.

I do enjoy satire as a form of political commentary, though. Making the jerks look like idiots is satisfying. Sadly, it takes wit to appreciate wit.

Really, what irritates me the most is when men treat us as if we are children or idiots.

When my wife has a problem, with something or someone, she wants to tell me about it. It's taken me a while to learn that most of the time she just wants support and sympathy. She can take care of it on her own.

To a guy, a complaint from anyone sounds like a request to Fix It! (tm). Neighbor didn't say hi to you even after you gave them a plate of spam musubi last week??? Let's go pound on their door and demand an apology!!! Can't print a document from your computer??? I won't let you be flexible and work around it. I'll prevent you from using the computer for hours until I can make it work EXACTLY the way you wanted it!!!

Telling us you're unhappy makes you feel better, but it makes us feel bad, until we can rescue you.

Frankly, I think a lot of that stems from male insecurity, which is still everywhere. Think about it...the next time you're out and about, count how many things look suspiciously phallic. Compensating?

Could be! :D

Not being / knowing an architect or industrial designer, I'm not sure how subconsciously driven the phallic symbols are, as opposed to mostly being accidents. I would guess it's people reading too much into things, like looking up at the clouds and seeing an IRS tax agent spanking a bunny rabbit. Heck, even a person with the right hairdo might look phallic...Maybe I've just proven that God is a male? :)

I remember hearing stories about phallic symbols being strewn across Disney movies. In the case of the Little Mermaid, I believe it was done purposely. I think the animators were pissed off (yuck yuck yuck) about the sweat shop conditions they labored under.

On a side note, I think one reason many young men get into animation is the chance to work off a lot of sexual frustration. If you can't have the hot woman in real life, you can draw her. She'll wear as much or as little as you want. She can hold anatomically incorrect poses for your perverted pleasure. I suspect the hentai industry is driven as much by supply as it is by demand.

Speaking of which, it looks like my boy Takashi Murakami has sold one of his pieces for $15M. Go go My Lonesome Cowboy! (NOT safe for work): http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2008/05/takashi_murakami_watches_from.html

[MyopicJoe]

Looks like I'm better at killing my threads than anyone else. Yay me! :p

[lavagal]

Looks like I'm better at killing my threads than anyone else. Yay me! :p

I am happy to relinquish the duty. yay you!

[68-eldo]

I’m reminded of the time my mother (a real estate saleswoman) was on the lawn in front of a prospective client’s house about to make a deal to list his house when the next door neighbor (one of dad’s coworkers) came over and ask her if he might be able to borrow dad’s ridge reamer. She said something like “I don’t see why not”. The prospective client laughed and said “I bet you don’t even know what a ridge reamer is”. She answered “Yes I do, it’s a tool to remove the ridge at the top of the cylinder so the piston will come out”. The guy turned around and went into his house. She never got the listing.

She was always frustrated by that kind of behavior in men. Hopefully I have learned enough not be like that.

[MyopicJoe]

I am happy to relinquish the duty. yay you!

I grudgingly accept the dubious honor from you, Lavagal.

*Relieve theTiara of Thread Slaying +5 from Lavagal and places it on his brow*


I’m reminded of the time my mother (a real estate saleswoman)

Were there many saleswomen back then, Eldo?


cylinder so the piston will come out”. The guy turned around and went into his house. She never got the listing. Guys are so competitive with each other. I suppose they don't like the idea of the number of people they have compete with could double? Or maybe they don't like the idea of "the prize" being more competent than they are? We have egos of spun glass.


She was always frustrated by that kind of behavior in men. Hopefully I have learned enough not be like that.Seems like women have to work harder to achieve the same things as a man. Kudos to your mom, Eldo.

[68-eldo]

Were there many saleswomen back then, Eldo?


IIRC nearly all the real estate sales people and even the brokers were women in the windward area. This was the early 60’s to mid 70’s.

[WindwardOahuRN]

>>maybe i'd find that clip funny if i didn't know that there are still too many people in this world who truly believe that's how women should act. *shrug*<

And an inordinate number of them, in Hawaii, are physicians. I am truly horrified at the paternalistic (and even maternalistic, R/T female physicians) manner in which physicians treat female nurses here. The disrespect and the outright dismissal of opinion is disgusting. Not what I was used to at all.
I am at a loss to explain the phenomenon. We have physicians from the mainland and from various countries around the world who participate in the same disrespectful crap.
It seems to be sanctioned by the powers that be. Perhaps said docs have found their niche here?
Sorry commentary on the UH teaching faculty. And so glad that I am approaching the end of my career in critical care nursing.
I do love the weather here, though. :)

[MyopicJoe]

IIRC nearly all the real estate sales people and even the brokers were women in the windward area. This was the early 60’s to mid 70’s.

Oh interesting. For some reason I thought the field was male dominated. Not that I don't think women could do the job well or even better, but rather that the guys would hog it up.

Thanks for the info, Eldo.


And an inordinate number of them, in Hawaii, are physicians.

Doh!


R/T female physiciansDo you mean respiratory therapy?


The disrespect and the outright dismissal of opinion is disgusting.Guess they seem to forget that nurses are university trained too? Perhaps they think their training is more grueling? In general I noticed that people who suffer together bond together. They get an Us vs. Them view of the world and of course they must be superior :p

It's a shame. I would think an experienced nurse brings useful insights to the table, to complement a doctor's training.


Not what I was used to at all.You mean it's a lot worse here than on the mainland? That's a shame.


I am at a loss to explain the phenomenon.By chance are most of the doctors haole and transplants from the mainland? Perhaps they are reacting defensively to the fact that they are the minority here and probably don't fit in? (just a wild theory)


And so glad that I am approaching the end of my career in critical care nursing.
I do love the weather here, though. :)May you have an enjoyable retirement :)

[cyleet99]

**thread drift...***

Old to emergency nursing, new to Hawaii physicians. Gotta say that I have found both those who dismiss me and those who expect/respect my opinion here in local EDs.

But I also have an old southern nurse habit of calling the ED doctors "doctor" and not by their first name (at least not in front of the patients.) The younger nurses think that's funny. ;)

Everyone deserves to be respected, even if not agreed with.

[MyopicJoe]

But I also have an old southern nurse habit of calling the ED doctors "doctor" and not by their first name (at least not in front of the patients.) The younger nurses think that's funny. ;)

Everyone deserves to be respected, even if not agreed with.

Formality is a good thing. It doesn't have to be cold and distant. It can be warm and respectful. It's all about delivery.

[cyleet99]

(yes, I am aware there's such a thing called a Male Nurse. haven't decided they truly exist, yet).

There are LOTS of male nurses. Especially in critical/emergency care. The other night I was the only female in the department (staffing 10 people including md and techs.) In nursing school in the mid 1980's we had one man, and he planned to specialize in labor and delivery. I often wondered how he did.

Nurse doesn't mean a female any more. And I would let them care for me anytime. Your sex doesn't determine your ability to care for others.

[MyopicJoe]

There are LOTS of male nurses.

Yeah, my father-in-law was a male nurse. I was making a tongue-in-cheek statement :)


Especially in critical/emergency care.

My friend went back to school to be an ER doctor. I think he was attracted to the high pressure work environment. He used to be in Army Special Forces. Adrenaline junkie I suppose.


We had one man, and he planned to specialize in labor and delivery. I often wondered how he did.

I'm sure he could do the job technically. I think he'd have a harder time with patients being uncomfortable with a man in the delivery room. Of course if he developed a good bedside manner he could do well.

(on a side note, I once witnessed an entire extended family having a party in the deliver room while the woman was in labor! I'm sure that that was normal for their culture. I don't recall their ethnicity. polynesian-ish perhaps?)


Nurse doesn't mean a female any more. And I would let them care for me anytime. Your sex doesn't determine your ability to care for others.

Yup!

[WindwardOahuRN]

Oh interesting. For some reason I thought the field was male dominated. Not that I don't think women could do the job well or even better, but rather that the guys would hog it up.

Thanks for the info, Eldo.




Doh!


Do you mean respiratory therapy?

No---R/T means "related to." Maternal was R/T the docs being female.


Guess they seem to forget that nurses are university trained too? Perhaps they think their training is more grueling? In general I noticed that people who suffer together bond together. They get an Us vs. Them view of the world and of course they must be superior :p

It's a shame. I would think an experienced nurse brings useful insights to the table, to complement a doctor's training.

We save their butts, repeatedly. And I am used to them being somewhat grateful. The arrogance here is appalling and so very counterproductive. We oldies-but-goodies have a lot to offer. Pity, but their (and the patient's) loss. So be it.


You mean it's a lot worse here than on the mainland? That's a shame.

Yep it is. Oh well...............


By chance are most of the doctors haole and transplants from the mainland? Perhaps they are reacting defensively to the fact that they are the minority here and probably don't fit in? (just a wild theory)

Nope. The worst offenders are local Asian docs and Japanese nationals, IME. Sorry---you asked.


May you have an enjoyable retirement :)

Not quite there yet....a few years to go. But the light in the tunnel is no longer an approaching train. :D

Addendum: I apologize for the messiness of this response but I simply could not bear with the repeated quote unquote stuff. I think you got my drift...;-)

[WindwardOahuRN]

**thread drift...***

Old to emergency nursing, new to Hawaii physicians. Gotta say that I have found both those who dismiss me and those who expect/respect my opinion here in local EDs.

But I also have an old southern nurse habit of calling the ED doctors "doctor" and not by their first name (at least not in front of the patients.) The younger nurses think that's funny. ;)

Everyone deserves to be respected, even if not agreed with.

I have to say that, as an ED nurse, you don't get to deal with a lot of attendings and intensivists. You deal with dedicated ED docs and the interactions are decidedly different from those in the units and on the floors.

And, with all due respect, you have been in Hawaii for what, six months or so? With how many months as a staff nurse?

I sense that you feel that if you address a physician as "Doctor" you will somehow initiate a magical response that will guarantee you the respect you deserve and that failing to participate in such a ritual results in a less than sterling relationship between doctors and nurses. Rather simplistic, and totally unrealistic, IME as a nurse in Hawaii for over eight years.

As one who has worked at two of the "Big Five" facilities here (three years at one and over five years at another) and endured a frustrating nurses strike (and the aftermath of abuse) I really must caution you to wait a while before you submit your final assessment of Nursing in Hawaii.

Not wishing to be pejorative. Just flinging out a reality check. And, not incidentally, responding to what I perceive (if wrongly, please feel free to correct) as an implied insult.

[MyopicJoe]

Not quite there yet....a few years to go. But the light in the tunnel is no longer an approaching train. :D

Haha. My wife witnessed a dramatic change in a coworker who retired. My wife said she looked years younger. I can imagine what it's like. When I was laid off years back, we had enough savings that I could relax for a bit. Good times, while they lasted.


I simply could not bear with the repeated quote unquote stuff. I think you got my drift...;-)

I do that a lot in my emails also, and I rarely see anyone else do it. I wonder if most people find it annoying. Hmm.

[cyleet99]

I have to say that, as an ED nurse, you don't get to deal with a lot of attendings and intensivists. You deal with dedicated ED docs and the interactions are decidedly different from those in the units and on the floors.

And, with all due respect, you have been in Hawaii for what, six months or so? With how many months as a staff nurse?

I sense that you feel that if you address a physician as "Doctor" you will somehow initiate a magical response that will guarantee you the respect you deserve and that failing to participate in such a ritual results in a less than sterling relationship between doctors and nurses. Rather simplistic, and totally unrealistic, IME as a nurse in Hawaii for over eight years.

As one who has worked at two of the "Big Five" facilities here (three years at one and over five years at another) and endured a frustrating nurses strike (and the aftermath of abuse) I really must caution you to wait a while before you submit your final assessment of Nursing in Hawaii.

Not wishing to be pejorative. Just flinging out a reality check. And, not incidentally, responding to what I perceive (if wrongly, please feel free to correct) as an implied insult.

I'm sorry you chose to perceive my thoughts as personally insulting. As a certified emergency nurse with 22 years of ED experience in 5 states including Hawaii, I feel I am as entitled as any other nurse to express my views on working with physicians. When I do work with intensivists and attendings, they are certainly not always on their best behavior, either, since they are usually covering call in the ED.

I can only look at the time you wrote the post and figure you had a long hard week when you decided to "caution" me about my thoughts on nursing.

Contrary to what you sense is true, kindness and respect are not magical rituals. Evidently these patterns of behavior are not what you have found to work for you. I don't stand for personal abuse of any kind from physicians, co-workers, family members, the general public or from other nurses who do not know me at all.

If you would like to discuss this further, I would be glad to move it over to PM.

Cindy