Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii? [Archive]

scrivener

June 14th, 2008, 10:20 PM

I'd like to hear about your struggles. Have you been trying to get your kids into a GT program but there isn't one in your area?

The quick answer about magnet schools is this: We haven't had any because we (so far) haven't needed any. A magnet school is a school targeted at students with specialized needs or interests, designed in part to draw them (the way magnets attract specific materials) out of their own school districts and into others. The reason magnet schools exist is that in every state except Hawaii, school districts receive their funding from property taxes. This means that schools in the middle of affluent neighborhoods receive more per child than schools in poor communities. It also means that students from one end of town stay on that end of town unless there's a reason for them not to. Magnet school attempt to draw students from varying communities into more socially mixed environments than can often be found naturally. These schools can be specialized for the needs of gifted students, or for students who have interests in performing arts or other areas. They do not have to be specifically about giftedness, for this implies that gifted students are more likely to come from affluent neighborhoods than poor neighborhoods.

So there are basically three very specific reasons we don't have magnet schools here. First, the entire state is administered as one school system, meaning that (ideally) students in Kahala aren't going to the kind of school their district can afford while students on Molokai are going to the kind of school THEIRs can afford. Yes, I know it doesn't ACTUALLY work out this way, but it's a good, lofty ambition that I think is worth trying to hang onto. Second, there is far less need for the mixing of ethnicities here when this state is already pretty dang ethnically diverse. Yes, I know you'll see certain kinds of last names much more at Farrington than you would at Kalaheo, but even the least ethnically diverse student bodies in Hawaii are far, far, far more diverse than the kinds of schools in districts where magnet schools are usually created. Finally, there's the issue of space. Right now, each community has pretty much as many high schools as it can handle except where certain barriers (such as fifty miles of ocean) prevent more shuffling.

This may be changing, though. Some small schools on neighbor islands are in danger of being combined with larger schools. It has been discussed as recently as last week that the vacated campuses could be used as new magnet schools that will get students out of areas like Hilo and into areas like Laupahoehoe. Somehow, I don't think this is what you have in mind, but the title of this thread does ask about magnet schools.

Some schools are not officially magnet schools but serve families similarly. I know families that went through great pains to make sure their kids got district exemptions so they could attend Pearl City (for band), Castle (for drama), or Waianae (for football). This isn't quite the same thing, but it is relevant to what you're asking about.

Now, if you're talking about gifted/talented programs, we do have them here. Many participants on HT are the product of GT programs in Hawaii's public schools, but I confess that it's a subject I haven't spoken of with my public school colleagues in quite some time, so I'd like to hear what you're going through. Have you found that schools in your area don't have GT programs? Or do you really want the complete removal of your kids from the entire campuses of your local schools, rather than just to be part of GT programs within larger schools?

I teach at a school whose target student is gifted, and who has had difficulty in other schools. As you probably know, many of our most gifted students have needs that are so specialized that simply accelerated programs don't meet those needs and often result in alienation or failure. Mine is not a public school, though, and it sounds like that is what you're looking for.

So let's talk. It sounds like you're frustrated AND irate. I'd like to hear about it.

Da Rolling Eye

June 14th, 2008, 10:25 PM

Okay, nevermind. Scriv said it already. ;)

tutusue

June 14th, 2008, 10:32 PM

[...]I'm sick and tired of the crap public education out there for the students.
Rosiev...this sentence ("out there") makes it sound like you and your children don't live in Hawaii.
If this state is supposed to be about Ohana - prove it by bringing the best education to our children![...]
This sentences makes it sounds like you do!
:confused:

scrivener

June 14th, 2008, 10:35 PM

Okay, nevermind. Scriv said it already. ;)
Dang it, don't delete your post! You said a lot of stuff I didn't touch on. Aaaargh. That really annoys me, DRE! Please consider reposting the stuff you had up!

MyopicJoe

June 14th, 2008, 11:02 PM

Wow, thanks for the insight, scrivener.

I'm curious what DRE wrote...

Da Rolling Eye

June 14th, 2008, 11:04 PM

Dang it, don't delete your post! You said a lot of stuff I didn't touch on. Aaaargh. That really annoys me, DRE! Please consider reposting the stuff you had up!

Okay. Sorry. I was considering going to bed cause I was taking so long getting my thoughts straight. ;)

Kden. Here's what the wife told me about GT classes, as our daughter is in one at her school. Funding for the GT program comes through the school's Special Education fund. If the school has a high number of Spec Ed kids, that's where the funding has to go as dictated by the state BOE. SO...that means our daughter only goes every other day for 45 minutes and gets taught by the librarian.

Funding also depends on passing scores for No Child Left Behind. If the school fails to make the minimum requirements, the state BOE can withold these funds. Our school has failed in previous years and finally made the minimum this past year. Now, these scores also have much to do with even Spec Ed kids who can't even write their names. All they have to do is show up for the testing so that the school can factor them in for the scoring. Unfortunately, many of the Spec Ed parents don't follow through for one reason or another.

Now to compare, I already told about my daughter's GT class. My cousin's daughter goes to a school in Pearl City that offers a whole curriculum geared for GT students. That's being enrolled in a GT program for every day, all day for the whole year. Totally separate from the other students.

Mil Mauka also has an excellent GT program, but they can also afford to have a choir, drama classes and a few other extra curricular activities.

Needless to say, these schools have long waiting lists for district exemptions.

Some options you could look into:

Supplimental classes such as Kumon.
Charter schools in your area.

Try looking at private schools. Most are not extravagantly expensive as schools such as Punahou or St. Louis. All private schools offer financial aid. The caveat, we learned, is that FA has to be applied for AFTER your child has been accepted. For us, FA was approved after having paid a couple of monthly payments at full tuition. Also, expect to spend up to $1000 in addition for incidentals such as application fees, deposits, books and supplies and uniforms. Lunches are also an additional expense as is transportation, if needed.

I don't know if I missed any previous points, but I think that was the gist of it. :o

I won't comment about our inept BOE. The stress that causes can knock off a decade of one's life, dontcha know. :D

MyopicJoe

June 14th, 2008, 11:27 PM

Thanks for the info, DRE!

Try looking at private schools. Most are not extravagantly expensive as schools such as Punahou or St. Louis.

I recommend you think twice before sending your kids to a private school you can barely afford, with classmates who enjoy a higher standard of living. You don't want your child to be the "poor kid" who makes an easy target for teasing. Coming out of school with a healthy self esteem is just as important as having a book education.

Of course if your child has a strong sense of self worth, is very charismatic, or has a real good friend, then this won't be as much of an issue; but if they're bright AND sensitive, you should give it more thought.

scrivener

June 14th, 2008, 11:33 PM

I just re-read my post and realized I didn't really explain what school funding has to do with wanting to draw students from affluent neighborhoods into less-affluent neighborhoods.

In areas with school-voucher systems, students take their share of the funding with them to whatever school they attend, meaning that if one district allocates $8000 per student, the $8000 goes to the school that student chooses to attend, even if that's a private school (thus offsetting or completely covering tuition). One thing a magnet school does is get some of those vouchers into poorer communities so that less-affluent students (whose own per-student allotments will be much less) can also attend specialized schools, which their communities might not otherwise be able to afford. This helps affluent students because they get to attend, say, schools that specialize in biological sciences. It helps less-affluent students because it allows them to attend schools (with state-of-the-art facilities and equipment) their communities would otherwise be unable to afford.

Under our system, for reasons I DID manage somehow to explain above, this kind of thing is supposed to be unnecessary.

Whew.

Frankie's Market

June 15th, 2008, 12:05 AM

Let me also chime in to say that Scriv and DRE have very eloquently stated why there are no public schools exclusively for the gifted-and-talented students in Hawaii. Because if I answered the question, it would have been ineloquent. Like "been there, done that!" :D

Let me explain. In the 1930s, there was a growing demand from certain influential and elite families living in the Territory of Hawaii to have public schools which would primarily cater to their children. They called it English-standard schools. Lincoln Elementary was the first one. Roosevelt High School followed a couple of years later. To gain admission to those schools, you had to pass a rigorous examination testing for proficiency in English. Not surprisingly, such standards heavily favored a certain ethnic group. (Duhh, guess who?) But there were a small sprinkling of ambitious students coming from immigrant backgrounds.

Basically, these were the public school versions of Punahou for many years. But the DOE abolished the English-standard admission policy in 1960. So if you're looking for a public school in Hawaii that is exclusively for the "cream of the crop," you're about a half-century out of luck.

Nowadays, public schools are home to specialized learning centers or academies. So for example, if you had a child who is interested in the performing arts, they could apply and gain entrance to Kaimuki or Castle High Schools, even though they do not live in those schools' respective districts.

Nords

June 15th, 2008, 07:12 AM

Our kid got into a GT program in elementary school and was really annoyed by having to miss some of her favorite classes just to go do GT things with the GT group.

She didn't make the GT cut at Mililani Mauka Middle (or she took a dive?) and was secretly happy because the kids in that program appeared (to her) to have a bunch of extra work for no apparent benefit.

She almost missed Mililani High School's GT test but now she's glad she made it. The kids in the GT classes are more interested in learning, and that makes a big difference when they have to do group projects. Many high-school "student-athletes" (an oxymoron) spend so much time at varsity/JV practice (or on the game bus on weeknights) that they don't have time to participate in group projects, let alone do their share or their own homework, and the GT classes have fewer of these overscheduled students. The GT kids also get to do/see more interesting curriculum because they have the math/reading skills to work through it.

The AP program, however, appears to be an arms race. Colleges love 'em, teachers get extra training/certification to teach 'em, and kids feel coerced to boost their transcripts. Some of the kids take three or even four AP classes where the teachers announce (with serious faces) that they'll each hand out 3-4 hours of reading/homework per night. At an AP class brief one of a teacher's own students announced, in front of that teacher as well as all the wannabes & parents, "________ is a Dementor whose class will suck the soul out of your life." The teacher's other students laughed in agreement, and so did the teacher... we parents had to go three rounds with our kid that night to get her to "cut back" to only two AP classes in her schedule. Each time she left us to discuss her decision with that teacher, she came back saying "No, I gotta take this course". We finally had to speak with the teacher ourselves. Somehow the two of us parents were able to convince the teacher that the world would not screech to a halt if our kid took the "regular" class.

But I highly recomend Kumon math & reading. Huge difference, especially when those kids encounter the PSAT/SAT.

lavagal

June 15th, 2008, 08:55 AM

My child is in the GT program at Koko Head School. A few weeks ago, our complex SCC (School Community Council) met at Kaiser HS. SCC board members from each school attended, elementary, middle and HS.

This year, Niu Valley Intermediate is conducting a dry run of the International Baccalaureate Program (http://www.ibo.org), which will be officially underway for the 2009-2010 school year. Every child, special needs through GT, will be enrolled in the program. Because it is a 5-year program, Kaiser HS is getting on board for students to participate if they qualify. At that point, it will not be mandatory, and students can join the program if they come from other schools and are interested and have the grades to indicate they can carry the heavier academic load. The advantage of this program is not only its academic challenge, but, we are told, it gives students an advantage when it comes to college admissions and scholarships.

As a result of these developments, the principal at Hahaione Elementary indicated that she'd like to have the program in her school. I'm not sure when but my impression is that it will happen. Now that school will be as terrific as my kids' school! (shameless plug!)

Part of our discussion at the SCC meeting, which includes school administrators, teachers, community members and parents, is that we welcomed the fact that the Kaiser Complex could become a magnet for students around Oahu.

The IBO program is expensive, and teachers have to be on board for participation as it's not only extra work for students, but for teachers as well. So far, at Niu and Hahaione, and at Kaiser, teachers are enthusiastic about the program. Teachers have to attend seminars on the mainland, some lasting several weeks, so that they can be certified to teach the program's curriculum.

It is my understanding that Campbell HS (http://www.ibo.org/school/003371/)and Mid-Pacific (http://www.ibo.org/school/000402/)are IBO schools.

Da Rolling Eye

June 15th, 2008, 09:13 AM

But I highly recomend Kumon math & reading. Huge difference, especially when those kids encounter the PSAT/SAT.
Even at the primary level, our daughter's aptitude in both skyrocketed and she was far ahead of her classmates. The down side is she got bored very easily and she loves to talk. You know what that leads to. :D

In areas with school-voucher systems, students take their share of the funding with them to whatever school they attend, meaning that if one district allocates $8000 per student, the $8000 goes to the school that student chooses to attend, even if that's a private school (thus offsetting or completely covering tuition).
When we were looking and applying for the private schools out this way, we were led to believe that Hawai'i has no voucher system. Shoots! I can't remember where there was also a discussion about it, but it came down to private school parents are crap out of luck. If there indeed is a voucher system, I'd like to know how to tap into it.

Mel got accepted to 2 of the private schools out this way. We tried one for 6 months and several thousand dollars, but ended up pulling her for our own reasons. We'd love to be able to send her to the other one, but the tuition is higher and even with financial aid it would put too much of a burden on us. That voucher system would pay her whole tuition at this school.

Btw, during the application process we get to sit in on classes at these schools. For the most part, we found the students to be enthusiastic, well mannered and eager to meet new friends. Most of the parents are hardworking and take an active interest in their children's education. Bullying and other rude behavior is not tolerated, the offenders ARE punished and parents called in for conference. It's not taken lightly and kids do get booted if the disruptive behavior continues.

I don't know if it's because the schools are out this way, but we have not seen much by way of "attitudes" because we're not rich. In fact, most of the parents of the students are all working class and below and are only interested in getting the best for their kids that the state can't provide. Not for show. ;)

MyopicJoe

June 15th, 2008, 09:46 AM

Part of our discussion at the SCC meeting, which includes school administrators, teachers, community members and parents, is that we welcomed the fact that the Kaiser Complex could become a magnet for students around Oahu.

Ah, thanks for sharing, Lavagal. It's interesting to hear what goes on at other SCC meetings. If that IBP goes well, I hope it reaches our complex by the time our girls hit middle school.

Btw, during the application process we get to sit in on classes at these schools. For the most part, we found the students to be enthusiastic, well mannered and eager to meet new friends. Most of the parents are hardworking and take an active interest in their children's education. Bullying and other rude behavior is not tolerated, the offenders ARE punished and parents called in for conference. It's not taken lightly and kids do get booted if the disruptive behavior continues.

Great job, scouting out the school instead of blindly throwing your daughter into it. I hope the voucher thing pans out for your family. Keep us informed!

Pua'i Mana'o

June 15th, 2008, 09:54 AM

I don't get it - everywhere I've been, there have been public schools for the academically gifted and I don't find any in Hawaii. You would think that there would be but I don't get it. The education department better get their asses in gear- I'm sick and tired of the crap public education out there for the students. If this state is supposed to be about Ohana - prove it by bringing the best education to our children! Investing in the education is true love and care for our children not just talk!!! I'm just steaming because the education department is so stupid and inept!

My daughter just graduated from a public high school. In her class of 350 students, over 35% had GPAs of 3.0 or higher and 12 valedictorians. Traditional public schools, Hawaiian immersion schools and PCS (public charter schools) – across the isles there exists a variety of public-funded educational models populated with people who care about our kids and students who thrive in each.

As for my daughter's high school, its boundaries contain the largest Hawaiian homestead subdivisions, the largest low-income housing projects and many working class neighborhoods. Geeks, goths, mokes, mahu, kanakz, country; the are all represented in the cum laude bracket.

"Crap public education" is worse than a blanket statement. It's a myth.

lavagal

June 15th, 2008, 12:04 PM

"Crap public education" is worse than a blanket statement. It's a myth.

Rock. And. Roll. What she said.

We all know that every school system every where has its struggles. There is a school on the Windward side, where our complex supervisor used to teach, that is ALWAYS on the bottom of the annual Honolulu Magazine's schools ranking to the question "Would you ever send your kid to the school you teach at? (not verbatim, no one ever ends sentence with AT!!!, LOL!) Anyway, every one of the teachers at this particular school says "NO!" because it is a school that has in its student body children from the nearby youth correctional facility. Of course it is right to teach these children as well, but the atmosphere must be quite challenging, and intimidating to many of the students. Might hinder learning.

rosiev

June 15th, 2008, 12:56 PM

okay - I got carried away and I apologize for being a rear-end:) Thanks everyone:):)

lavagal

June 15th, 2008, 02:42 PM

okay - I got carried away and I apologize for being a rear-end:) Thanks everyone:):)

Surprise! You can always count on a push back here at HT! No offense taken. Just want you, RosieV, to appreciate the bigger picture. And believe me, an annual magazine survey, which I know you did not refer to, but I did, is really no authority on how our schools rate.

From our discussion at the recent SCC meeting, the questions are considered quite naive--and we are in a highly rated complex. If you were to ask parents, teachers and administrators at any particular school what its assets and deficits were, you'd get a better idea. The imposed competition among schools in a magazine survey is bit mean spirited, IMHO. Honestly, when a publication comes out with its BEST OF... "contests," am I the only person who thinks that it's more of an advertising vehicle, with the winner being the one who has paid the most to the publication, and less of a public opinion poll?

I was going to say that although an annual survey of schools doesn't generate much revenue, I am assuming that would be wrong. I would imagine that this is a highly circulated edition, consequently attracting advertising dollars.

We debated the idea of talking with an editor about the survey. But I am sure an invitation to our complex SCC meeting would be met with cynicism and scepticism. And that's too bad because we are really at the grassroots of helping our schools become so much better. Even we have a healthy reservation when it comes to the behemoth DOE, but we are optimistic that parents of students, teachers and administrators at the schools can approach the dragon and affect change. I happen to think the International Baccaulaureate Program is a step in that direction. And please note, we aren't doing it just for the kids in our complex. Any child on Oahu can apply for a geographic exception (GE). I don't know what the considerations would be, but it's out there. I understand we have a child from Kaaawa and some from Waianae attending Niu now.

I feel it is only right to add that I am a former employee of The Honolulu Advertiser, PBN, and have recently closed my column in the East Oahu Sun. I am now a senior writer for HMSA (NOT Island Scene). I am married to a newsman, and our children go to the same school that he and his four sisters attended. I am on fire about public education, something I feel I caught from my father-in-law, who is also a strong public schools advocate. I do not have the teaching chops that Scrivener has, just the boiling parental drive to want to make it possible for Hawaii's public school children to succeed. Yours, mine, everyone's!

Pua'i Mana'o

June 15th, 2008, 08:41 PM

okay - I got carried away and I apologize for being a rear-end:) Thanks everyone:):)

not at all! This is an excellent topic and I am glad you brought it up.

pzarquon

June 16th, 2008, 08:47 AM

This was definitely a great topic. I had vague thoughts about public schools with specialties (drama in particular... my alma mater (http://starbulletin.com/2004/03/22/features/story2.html) had a program in partnership with two others), but otherwise couldn't articulate things nearly as well as everyone else here. And I definitely learned a lot about how the school-by-school "GT" program works.

I'm a proud public school grad and have generally been happy with my own kids' public school education. I haven't come across any failing for which adjusting my own parenting hasn't been the most appropriate solution. Frankly, I'm actually finding first-hand that it's what happens outside the classroom that factors most heavily in how kids turn out.

And one of my kids has been in "special education" his whole school-age life so far, and the program (however strapped for cash and populated largely by low-income students) has been fantastic.

Official test scores and subjective magazine rankings don't really tell you much, and may even misdirect you. I know there are serious, serious issues throughout the DOE, but there's no reason a kid can't come out of it with what he or she needs to be a successful person.

timkona

June 16th, 2008, 06:26 PM

Here Here for Puai. I think the education system in Hawaii is just fine also. My happy, soon to be 2nd grader, is doing just fine, socially, academically, etc. There is one HUGE problem in the school though. It's the students and their families. School is the ultimate place where "one bad apple can spoil the whole barrel". I have already had a couple "face to face" communications with the parents of future convicts who are "disruptive."

It is ironic that so much money is spent on the mentally "challenged", and so little on the "gifted." For it is the gifted children who are most likely to become the leaders of industry, science, and commerce. And the rising tide lifts all the boats, even the ones with slower passengers. This is most certainly a "liberal philosophy" problem, where success and achievement is villified, and mediocrity is desirable. Remember, life is NOT fair.

I would love to start a magnet school in Hawaii centered on Football. It would have to include Cheerleaders and a rocking marching Band. Lots of big, fast, smart, tough, agile, strong children coming out of Hawaii.

scrivener

June 16th, 2008, 06:55 PM

It is ironic that so much money is spent on the mentally "challenged", and so little on the "gifted." For it is the gifted children who are most likely to become the leaders of industry, science, and commerce. And the rising tide lifts all the boats, even the ones with slower passengers. This is most certainly a "liberal philosophy" problem, where success and achievement is villified, and mediocrity is desirable. Remember, life is NOT fair.
That's one way to look at what's been a major problem in gifted education for quite a long time. I don't know if the underfunding of gifted education is so much a celebration of mediocrity as of this idea most people have that the smart kids will find a way, which they usually do. This, of course, is unfair to them. But it's true that GT education doesn't get as much attention as it should; I think it's a larger version of what happens in any large classroom (I know, because I've had to struggle with this): Every student could use a little more attention from the teacher, but it's the ones who struggle (or who act out) who get it the most. When I have a hundred essays to grade, and each essay takes twelve minutes, that's only five essays per hour. The students who do well are more likely to have only seven minutes spent on their essays (yes, I know this is unfair; believe me, I tried my best) while the students who do poorly will have twenty minutes spent on theirs.

Smaller classes, I tell you.

timkona

June 16th, 2008, 08:03 PM

lavagal

June 16th, 2008, 08:29 PM

Perhaps, somewhere, around the 3rd or 4th grade, kids should be split into smaller classroom sizes, where the criteria is based on achievement. In this way, the GT kids are together, and the "also-ran's" are together.

PS - What does GT stand for exactly?

I know Scrivener is explaining this all very well, but, my girl is GT, Gifted and Talented. From what I understand the GT and the special needs kids are funded from the same account. I must also say that I think it's actually a better idea to integrate the kids, so the brighter ones inspire the others. One of the nice things about my girls' school is that special needs kids are fully integrated. No one is set apart like a freak. Therefore, the kids are actually growing up together, enjoying each other, getting on each others' nerves, learning together, etc. More than anything, I was an also ran, and I know that I think I would have felt better about myself, or maybe even did better at school, had I the chance to absorb some of the glow from the smart ones.

Nords

June 17th, 2008, 05:55 AM

I must also say that I think it's actually a better idea to integrate the kids, so the brighter ones inspire the others.
When I was in school the brighter kids in my class sure inspired the heck outta me, although perhaps not in the manner you envision...

TuNnL

June 18th, 2008, 12:12 AM

GT and the special needs kids are funded from the same account. I must also say that I think it's actually a better idea to integrate the kids, so the brighter ones inspire the others. One of the nice things about my girls' school is that special needs kids are fully integrated. No one is set apart like a freak. ... I think I would have felt better about myself, or maybe even did better at school, had I the chance to absorb some of the glow from the smart ones.That’s very generous of you to offer the talents of your kids to the more “average” ones as a means of inspiration. I’d like to share my own perspective.

I was one of those G/T kids back in elementary school. My kindergarten teacher first noticed I was different when it took me about 5 minutes to complete an SRA (Science Research Associates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_Research_Associates)) assignment that normally took a student an hour to complete. There were several levels of about 100 exercises denoted by color, and I had reached the last color by mid-semester.

When I was subsequently shipped off to G/T, I was sad to leave my friends. But I enjoyed the program immensely, and it was the ultimate outlet for me to develop my creative talents. I still look back at it as the most important influence of my education. By the time I reached the 3rd grade, I was neglecting my regular schoolwork because compared to G/T, it was nightmarishly boring.

Because of this, administrators made the decision to remove me from G/T. The result was disastrous. A delinquent student in my third grade class would constantly harass me, and both of us would end up getting into trouble. By fourth grade, I had gotten into my first fistfight, and the rest was history. For many years, I would frequently receive notes to my parents that read “your child is one of the brightest kids in the class, but receives poor grades because he doesn’t apply himself.” As a result, I failed to get into a certain “elite” private school here in Hawai‘i, which had been one of my goals.

I hope G/T and its implementation has improved in our public schools since my experience. For awhile, I thought they had discontinued it, to make room for Special Ed. That early foundation did end up helping me in the long term, but the negative effects of the shocking disconnect also had a lasting effect on me. :(

lavagal

June 18th, 2008, 08:35 AM

I'm not saying my daughter's life as a GT student is all plumeria lei and haupia pie. She is tormented daily by some kids, both boys and girls, and it breaks my heart. Some of them pick on her because she's 8 and not 9 and 10 like they are. Some of them pick on her because she's driven, inquisitive, and asks questions of the teacher. I am always wanting to protect her, because she wears her heart on her sleeve and she is often preyed upon. Sometimes the only kids she has fun with are the special needs kids, because they
don't criticize her, they just like her because she's another kid, and a kid who smiles and has fun with them.

Sometimes Kid 1 picks on Kid 2 and I have to remind Kid 1 that she's making her sister feel the way some of the kids at school or summer fun make her feel. As a mom, I just hope both of my girls can come away from these experiences with a healthy sense of empathy and with an understanding that they can't change others and that they can't control everything in their lives. Live, learn and let go.

timkona

June 18th, 2008, 09:01 AM

Makes you wonder who are the parents of these little trolls who would pick on kids just cuz they are smart? Or different? Or dumb? Or whatever?

Perhaps it is that kids are just naturally mean? Perhaps it is that there is no such thing as bad children, only bad parents?

Da Rolling Eye

June 18th, 2008, 07:09 PM

From what I understand the GT and the special needs kids are funded from the same account. I must also say that I think it's actually a better idea to integrate the kids, so the brighter ones inspire the others.

That's what I already said about the funding. :confused:

You should visit the schools who have a high percentage of ESL students, town and country, many of whom come from really bad family situations as well. The....mmmm...smarter students inspire nothing in these kids. Teachers get frustrated because these kids can't understand what the lessons are and many tend to be disruptive. Wife told me one teacher just quit at the end of this last semester. Reason. Too many disruptive students and it's getting worse because the Principle has to divide these kids up equally. This was a male teacher too. No can handle.

If anything, the average and smarter students suffer for it. Many of these schools failed the Felix Decree because the ESL students don't have enough of a grasp on English to understand what it is they need to do. Many of their parents, locals as well, also have no interest whatsoever in their education. The school is just a free babysitter for them.

Sorry to say that. Just my observation and hearing what the wife says about some of the area schools since she's worked in them. She's also talked to the schools' admin about these very topics and hears their frustration at not being able to accomodate all the students equally. Same complaints about lack of funding and their hands being tied behind their backs by DOE "rules".

Now, if we heard an explaination of these shortcomings from a DOE official, he/she would just blow smoke up our collective butts and paint a rosy picture of a statewide education system succeeding in all districts under all the same rules and funding. Not. Like Scriv said, districts with a higher tax base have an edge. Out here, it's us parents who have to come up with more money out of our pockets to help our kids' teachers afford new books and class supplies. One can argue that all schools are this way, but you'd have to admit that families in the more affluent areas tend to have a bit more discretionary income than most of us do. For us, it's food off the table or that next tankful of gas so we can get to work.

BTW, to separate the "smart" kids from the slower ones is "not politically correct" as quoted from what the wife heard as an explaination to segregating kids of different academic levels.

Now, when I was your age and went to school.........:D
Actually, we did have segregation. There were classes that had only slower kids, then average, then the smarter ones. You know what? A lot of the "slower" kids have successful lives today. Many of the smart kids.........well, what can I say. Lets just say a lot of them can't afford to retire, which is coming up real quick. :eek:

MyopicJoe

June 18th, 2008, 10:39 PM

SRA (Science Research Associates) assignment that normally took a student an hour to complete. There were several levels of about 100 exercises denoted by color, and I had reached the last color by mid-semester.

Haha I remember those SRA things. If I recall correctly, they came in boxes and the edge of each sheet had a colored square. I liked the pastel colors. I also enjoyed touching the satin lamination.

Because of this, administrators made the decision to remove me from G/T. The result was disastrous.

How cruel :( To show a child a better life and then say, "Nah, you no can have."

She is tormented daily by some kids, both boys and girls, and it breaks my heart.

I'm sorry to hear :( Being sensitive (i.e. wearing your heart on your sleeve) is both a blessing and a curse. They say if your child has at least one good friend who values them for who they are, that it'll innoculate them against the long term effects of being picked on. *smile hopefully*

Makes you wonder who are the parents of these little trolls who would pick on kids just cuz they are smart? Or different? Or dumb? Or whatever?

Perhaps it is that kids are just naturally mean? Perhaps it is that there is no such thing as bad children, only bad parents?

Children are naturally competitive; they compete for attention. Children are also very observant; they quickly spot differences and weaknesses in others. Left to their own devices, children are ruthless. It's society (mainly parents) who civilizes them.

It's depressingly easy to become a parent. Bad parents lack discipline and tend to have more babies. Of course out-breeding your opponents is a viable survival strategy.

"Been around the world and found
that only stupid people are breeding
the cretins cloning and feeding
and i don't even own a tv"

But, I think most parents are decent parents. Unfortunately they're struggling against increasingly difficult economic times. They're barely making ends meet, and there's little left over time and energy for the kids. Our population is growing and our country is getting poorer. America hit the jackpot by placing a last minute bet on WW2, but now the payday check is starting to run out.

The....mmmm...smarter students inspire nothing in these kids.

"Slower" kids will only be inspired by the "smarter" kids if they believe they too can achieve the same success. If they don't think they can, they won't be motived to compete in a game that they'd end up losing. Better just to beat up the smart kids and change the game into something they can win. It's smart, in a way.

You know what? A lot of the "slower" kids have successful lives today. Many of the smart kids.........well, what can I say. Lets just say a lot of them can't afford to retire, which is coming up real quick.

There are many different kinds of intellegence. The "book smart" kind can be quite a liability. Success in life depends on slogging through boring grunt work, and "smart" people tend to get bored very easily. They also tend to over analyze things and sabotage themselves.

"Slow" or "smart", if you live beyond your means, you ain't gonna retire.