Using two routers on one network

[Mike_Lowery]

Okay, so I work in an sorta small office (6 people and 6 desktops). We have one router (4 ports), and 4 PCs are hardwired to the router. We got one extra router sitting around. Would it be possible to daisychain the routers and hardwire the other 2 computers?

[helen]

It would be much simpler to get an Ethernet switch either a 4 port or a 8 port switch and place that under the router.

At the router level you would be able to connect 3 PC and the switch. From the switch you can connect another 4 to 8 PCs for a total of 7 to 11 PCs.

For the two routers situation. One router would have 3 PCs on it and the cable to the router below it. One the lower router you can connect up to 4 more PCs, that would be a total of 7 PCs.

Managing the setup would be the difference. With the router/switch setup any of the PC's can manage the router. For the router/router setup, the PCs on the lower setup can manage the lower router but not the upper router, while the 3 PCs on the top router can manage the top router, but they can't manage the lower router.

[MyopicJoe]

If you're lucky, your router model will have the ability to disable its firewall/NAT, thereby having it behave like a switch. This would simplify your network as Helen suggested.

Two routers might work ok if you set one to use different address ranges? Like 192.168.1.x for one and 192.168.2.x for the other? I haven't done something like this for a while, so I can't be sure without experimenting.

With two routers you will still have issues with computers connected to the first router (the one closest to your Internet connection) trying to initiate contact with computers on the second router, due to the firewall.

[alohatim]

Like Helen said, it is SO much easier with a network switch.

To make router #2 passive you should only need to turn off DHCP and assign it an IP address in the network's range. Make sure the IP address is not in the range assigned to other computers.

[Mike_Lowery]

Like Helen said, it is SO much easier with a network switch.

To make router #2 passive you should only need to turn off DHCP and assign it an IP address in the network's range. Make sure the IP address is not in the range assigned to other computers.
Thanks!

I forgot to keep y'all updated, but a couple hours after I posted this, I literally found a network switch in the dumpster of my office building. I took it, tried it, and it worked! chea!

[MyopicJoe]

I literally found a network switch in the dumpster of my office building. I took it, tried it, and it worked! chea!

Haha, what perfect timing. Luck of the Lowery.

Thanks for the update, Mike.

[alohatim]

What luck!

I should go dumpster diving at your place! It was probably thrown out by somebody who didn't know what it was. If it works, it works!

[Mike_Lowery]

What luck!

I should go dumpster diving at your place! It was probably thrown out by somebody who didn't know what it was. If it works, it works!

It's kind of a lucky dumpster...my co-worker found a working G3 laptop last year. There's a shirt printing and embroidery business in the building, so the dumpster has a lot of misprinted t-shirts, hoodies, duffels, and backpacks every week (not that I ever took one).

[Mike_Lowery]

I got another question for y'all nerds :D

Would it be possible to use a router as a repeater?

[buzz1941]

There's a shirt printing and embroidery business in the building, so the dumpster has a lot of misprinted t-shirts, hoodies, duffels, and backpacks every week (not that I ever took one).

Can that stuff be donated to charity?

[MyopicJoe]

I got another question for y'all nerds :D

Better nerd than dork ;)

Hmm. geek / grog > nerd > dork ?

(yes. it takes a certain kind of insanity to rank insults)


Would it be possble to use a router as a repeater?

Do you mean a wireless repeater?

If you're talking about a wired network, then a switch is a repeater. Do you mean a hub? A hub is like a switch, except it's cheaper and wasteful of bandwidth (I suppose there are special situations where it's preferable).


Can that stuff be donated to charity?

That's a cool idea. I'm sure if the charities picked them up, the company wouldn't mind.

On a side note, I don't think fast food joints donate excess food, due to liability issues? They probably leave it nicely outside.

[Mike_Lowery]

Do you mean a wireless repeater?

If you're talking about a wired network, then a switch is a repeater. Do you mean a hub? A hub is like a switch, except it's cheaper and wasteful of bandwidth (I suppose there are special situations where it's preferable).


Oops, yeah, I mean a wireless repeater. There are a couple corners of my house where the signal's a little weak, and goes in and out at times.

[Random]

So, what are the pros and cons of using a second router as a wireless repeater?

And at the risk of getting rolleyes and sighs, are there dedicated repeaters for N-mode routers?

[MyopicJoe]

I've never set up an Access Point or Repeater, so I had to do a little research. Reliable information is surprisingly hard to find. I finally found a decent site (http://www.ezlan.net/Distance.html), whose explanations sound reasonable.


Oops, yeah, I mean a wireless repeater.

Most wireless routers can act as Access Points, but they can't act as Repeaters.


An Access Point turns network traffic carried over a cable (wired) into one carrier over the air (wireless), and vice versa.

A Repeater takes in network traffic carrier over the air (wireless), and repeats it over the air (wireless).


An Access Point needs an Ethernet cable connecting it to your main router. Think of it as wiring up an extra antenna.

Repeaters don't need a cable, but the downside is they have half the bandwidth. They need to toggle between receiving and transmitting (perhaps this depends on the specific design of the Repeater?)


Whichever solution you go with, you might want to consider using the same brand as your main wireless router (for compatibility and perhaps performance issues). If you're not happy with what you bought, you can return it (if you buy it locally).


And at the risk of getting rolleyes and sighs, are there dedicated repeaters for N-mode routers?

/rolleyes
/le sigh (that's french)

heh, just kidding :D


It looks like Repeaters are plain hard to find, much less N ones. NewEgg only carries two. LinkSys only has one, and it's G. I guess they're not popular.

[Random]

Is it possible to use a combination of a wireless router in one side of a house, connect an ethernet cable to a powerline ethernet adapter ("A"), plug in the second ethernet powerline adapter ("B") on the other side of the house, and then hook it up to an access point or switch from there?

[MyopicJoe]

Is it possible to use a combination of a wireless router in one side of a house, connect an ethernet cable to a powerline ethernet adapter ("A"), plug in the second ethernet powerline adapter ("B") on the other side of the house, and then hook it up to an access point or switch from there?

It sounds theoretically possible. I have no experience with, nor done any research on, Ethernet over power lines. If I would hazard a guess, I'd say it can be done, but the performance over the power line segment might be low. Perhaps low enough to make it infeasible. Of course it depends on what your needs are, on the far end.

Try reading the reviews for various power line Ethernet products on NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=powerline+ethernet&x=0&y=0). Tap the global power of geeks!

[kamapuaa]

Better nerd than dork ;)

If you're talking about a wired network, then a switch is a repeater. Do you mean a hub? A hub is like a switch, except it's cheaper and wasteful of bandwidth (I suppose there are special situations where it's preferable).



There is only one situation in modern networking where the use of a hub would be preferable, and that's if you need to sniff network traffic. The basic difference between a switch and a hub is that a switch learns the MAC addresses of the devices connected to it, and directs traffic to the appropriate port. A hub will send any traffic that it receives out of all of it's ports, leaving connected devices to decide if they are the recipients of the traffic. Additionally, hubs are incapable of operating at full duplex.



Most wireless routers can act as Access Points, but they can't act as Repeaters.

An Access Point turns network traffic carried over a cable (wired) into one carrier over the air (wireless), and vice versa.

A Repeater takes in network traffic carrier over the air (wireless), and repeats it over the air (wireless).

An Access Point needs an Ethernet cable connecting it to your main router. Think of it as wiring up an extra antenna.

Repeaters don't need a cable, but the downside is they have half the bandwidth. They need to toggle between receiving and transmitting (perhaps this depends on the specific design of the Repeater?)



In my opinion, the right way to set up multiple access points is to use WDS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Distribution_System

Essentially, you just end up with a single wireless network. The important thing to remember when contemplating this kind of configuration is that the slowest permitted device will set the speed of the entire wireless network. Even with a shiny new 802.11 draft-n access point, if you permit 802.11b devices to connect, they will drag everything down to 802.11b speeds.

[Random]

In my opinion, the right way to set up multiple access points is to use WDS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Distribution_System

Essentially, you just end up with a single wireless network. The important thing to remember when contemplating this kind of configuration is that the slowest permitted device will set the speed of the entire wireless network. Even with a shiny new 802.11 draft-n access point, if you permit 802.11b devices to connect, they will drag everything down to 802.11b speeds.
Read the article. Mentioned the use of a [second] router as a native repeater mode.

[MyopicJoe]

In my opinion, the right way to set up multiple access points is to use WDS

Thanks for the link, kamapuaa. Learn something new every day :)


Would this be accurate statement I could make?

"Out of the box, most wireless routers can only be Access Points. Out of the box, some can be Repeaters. A few more can be Repeaters with third party firmware."

[kamapuaa]

Thanks for the link, kamapuaa. Learn something new every day :)

Would this be accurate statement I could make?

"Out of the box, most wireless routers can only be Access Points. Out of the box, some can be Repeaters. A few more can be Repeaters with third party firmware."

I think we might be suffering from namespace collision here. Strictly speaking, the little linksys/netgear/whatever units are not routers, they are NAT firewalls with a built in WAP (I do understand that they have become known as routers in the vernacular). Their actual routing functions are quite limited (private addresses are routed one way, everything else goes out the other). Some are more configurable than others.

Also, I'm not really digging the term repeater - I think that that's a device that receives and amplifies signal strength to combat distance-related signal degredation. I don't think that any of the residential access points perform this specific function, although I may be mistaken. I think "relay" would be a more accurate term, as they are passing layer 3 traffic back to the main base station via a layer 2 802.11(b/g/draft-n) network established via WDS.

It's hard to generalize any of this stuff, as most of the companies will do their own (often proprietary) implementations.

edit: re-read the wikipedia article, and saw the bit about repeater mode. I guess you do learn something new every day.

[Random]

Thanks for the link, kamapuaa. Learn something new every day :)


Would this be accurate statement I could make?

"Out of the box, most wireless routers can only be Access Points. Out of the box, some can be Repeaters. A few more can be Repeaters with third party firmware."
The first sentence seems redundant since a wireless router is actually a combination of a router and an access point. UNLESS, a wireless router doesn't have any port for WIRED networking. Just a port for plugging your cable from your modem.

The second seems to be true since one of the Netgear routers (WNR834B) can be used as a native repeater with the first [Netgear] wireless router.

[Random]

Also, I'm not really digging the term repeater - I think that that's a device that receives and amplifies signal strength to combat distance-related signal degredation. I don't think that any of the residential access points perform this specific function, although I may be mistaken. I think "relay" would be a more accurate term, as they are passing layer 3 traffic back to the main base station via a layer 2 802.11(b/g/draft-n) network established via WDS.
Meh. We still use the the term "modem" even though broadband modem doesn't function like the old version ("modem" is a shorthand term for "modulator/demodulator").

[MyopicJoe]

I think we might be suffering from namespace collision here.

Yeah. Marketing departments know consumers don't care which OSI layer a network process occurs at. They just want to know if they can web surf while sitting in their outhouse.

[joshuatree]

All devices are repeaters because that's at the physical layer, layer 1. Whether a packet gets routed or switched or simply repeated, the packet is physically regenerated at the outgoing port.

Not all access points are routers. Access points can simply be at the layer 2, which is what bridges/switches operate at. Routing is at layer 3. People get easily confused because manufacturers are trying to cram more features into a single unit. For instance, there are Layer 3 switches now. The common Linksys combo has a router with 4 switched ports and an access point wireless built in. That's basically 3 different products put in one, the power of open source software coupled with ASICs.