Obama and Race

[matapule]

I do not want to hijack the thread on Hawai'i Independence, so starting this thread.

But I must refute your assertion that Obama has chosen to identify himself as “black.” He has told the story countless times quite proudly of his white Kansan mother and black Kenyan father, and has made it part of his campaign biography.


That is exactly my point. Why does he keep re-telling that story? Why does John McCain keep re-telling the story about his captivity in Viet Nam? I guess it is because these are simplistic rallying points that most Americans can relate. I guess the complex issues of environment, economy, and geopolitics and their interdependence are just too complicated for the average American to understand.

I so wanted Obama to step out of the mold, be bold in his approach and visions for the future. He was a fresh face with so much potential. I wanted Obama to talk about race...not his, but what he was going to do about uniting people of different racial backgrounds, including native Hawaiians, into a common people with common goals for the macro-issues. He certainly has the potential charisma to do that unlike his opponent who looks like a prune and is about as exciting as a wet mop. But it takes more than charisma to bring about a Renaissance. It takes innovative programs with visionary zeal. I saw that potential for Obama in the beginning. Now, he is sounding just like a retread from the past.

I am rapidly losing interest in the November election. Just more of the same "tu'u mama'o" in the same tired old rhetoric. But if that's what the American people want, that's what they deserve.

If you sense a bit of frustration and cynicism on my part, you are correct. What am I missing?

[TuNnL]

although he is half black and half white, he has chosen to identify himself as "black."
I must refute your assertion that Obama has chosen to identify himself as “black.” He has told the story countless times quite proudly of his white Kansan mother and black Kenyan father, and has made it part of his campaign biography.
That is exactly my point. Why does he keep re-telling that story?So that people like matapule will not mistakenly believe he is only identifying himself as “black.” The story proves he is also identifying himself as “white.” Duh. :rolleyes:

I wanted Obama to talk about race...not his, but what he was going to do about uniting people of different racial backgrounds, including native Hawaiians, into a common people with common goals for the macro-issues.Obama encourages all races and groups to come together in virtually every speech he gives. It is a major campaign theme for him. There is no one-soundbite solution to “unite people of different racial backgrounds,” which is why none of candidates have articulated such a solution. The issue is a complicated one that would take at least fifty pages to discuss. That’s why he has left that issue to be explored within (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreams_from_My_Father) his two bestselling books. He does however, provide some hints in his 35-minute speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU) on race.

[Leo Lakio]

I am rapidly losing interest in the November election. Just more of the same "tu'u mama'o" in the same tired old rhetoric. But if that's what the American people want, that's what they deserve.

If you sense a bit of frustration and cynicism on my part, you are correct. What am I missing?Nothing, my friend. I, too, would like to see politicians "break the mold" - but those politicians do not appear to convince enough of an electorate to support them, beyond the state level.

On a national level, candidates are continually pandering to the center, firmly hugging the middle of the road, while trying to hang onto enough of their supporters slightly to one side or the other. Meanwhile, voters who are farther away from the middle are continually dissatisfied; notice how hard lefties are angry that Sen. Obama has now revealed himself to be more conservative than he was during the primary season, in order to capture more non-Democratic voters? (I give Sen. Clinton credit here for being that way herself all along.) And deeply conservative voters are disgusted with Sen. McCain.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[timkona]

Obama, Kamehameha Schools, Affirmative Action, Japanese Chamber of Commerce, Ku Klux Klan, Black Congressional Caucus.


I so don't get it. :confused:

[Leo Lakio]

I so don't get it. :confused:No, sir, you certainly don't. But it's a pleasure to discuss it with you anyway.

Perhaps the problem with us, Tim, is that we are middle-class white men. We are part of the class/race/gender that has been the dominant force in this nation for most of the past two centuries. We can only attempt to grasp minority issues from an outside perspective.

While I would never try to force you to agree with a different p.o.v. on race-based issues such as those you listed, I hope you are making a serious attempt to understand what they mean to those whose lives are more intimately affected by them, to see why they are important to people whose lives have taken different paths from yours or mine - particularly when those paths have been adjusted due to their class/race/gender.

[timkona]

I grew up poor, on a farm. Worked 3 jobs, eating bologna, while scratching my way through college. Have tried to start 3 different businesses, all of which were met with medium success. Am finally a homeowner (just barely) and still eating bologna trying to make ends meet.

I think hardship is a way of life for all of us. It's no harder for anybody than it has been for me. In fact, were I a different color I may have qualified for some scholarship, or some great job, or perhaps some exceptional school. Oh and btw, it's very likely that I am not nearly as 'white' as you think I am. Neither by birth nor culture.

More like olive spotted, with cream undertones, and red highlights.

[Leo Lakio]

Oh and btw, it's very likely that I am not nearly as 'white' as you think I am. Neither by birth nor culture. More like olive spotted, with cream undertones, and red highlights.I appreciate the clarification, Tim.

Have you looked into a "support group" for your own particular mix? Maybe start one - see if you can create foundational support for educational scholarships - then it'll turn out that your daughter is the only qualified applicant! :p

Oh, wait a minute --- that's no different from your present familial obligations for supporting her collegiate future, is it? Sorry - thought I had something for you there.

P.S.) I still like bologna, too, though I never had it fried until I was an adult. Give it a shot, if you haven't already. According to my mother, we grew up quite poor as well - though she did a marvelous job of hiding it. It's only been upon more recent review of those years that I am astounded to find we didn't end up on the streets back then.

[/off-topic]

Hearing all the discussion during this election season about how close we were to having "the first black" or "the first female" president both pleased and disturbed me. Pleased, in that I am happy to see the day occur during my life; disturbed, in that it reminds me how far we still have to do to reach the point where it just --- doesn't --- matter. (I think that's a goal Tim & I share.) My personal assessments of Sens. Obama and Clinton had absolutely nothing to do with race or gender.

E.T.A.) NY Times Magazine's cover story this past weekend - "Is Obama the End of Black Politics?" (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/magazine/10politics-t.html)

[salmoned]

The mold has worked for how long? Why change what doesn't appear busted? If someone comes along and wants their personal life and story to remain personal, who only wants to present and promote their new ideas on policy and practice, they'll be as assuredly snubbed as I have been in HT. As much as we (as a nation) might want someone who can wisely consider only the good of the world (or even just the country) when making policy, we could never be moved to actually nominate, support or vote for such a person because we are too fond of our special interests.

[Leo Lakio]

As much as we (as a nation) might want someone who can wisely consider only the good of the world (or even just the country) when making policy, we could never be moved to actually nominate, support or vote for such a person because we are too fond of our special interests.As much as it may shock you to know this, I agree with you. (And I generally don't waste board space to just say simply that I agree or disagree with a post - but considering our discussion elsewhere, I thought you might enjoy that mild shock.)

[matapule]

As much as we (as a nation) might want someone who can wisely consider only the good of the world (or even just the country) when making policy, we could never be moved to actually nominate, support or vote for such a person because we are too fond of our special interests.

And therein is the crux of the problem.

[matapule]

I grew up poor, on a farm. Worked 3 jobs, eating bologna,

Hey, weren't we part of the same family? And be careful what you say about bologna. That's my soul food! I grew up on ground bologna sandwiches - the cheapest bologna, some cheese, pickles all ground together. It was always part of our picnic fare up in the Sierras. Sunday morning was scrambled eggs and fired bologna.

I think all bologna eaters are a special group and deserve special considerations. We even have a ready made slogan: WE'RE FULL OF BOLOGNA AND WE KNOW IT!

[Random]

I grew up poor, on a farm. Worked 3 jobs, eating bologna, while scratching my way through college. Have tried to start 3 different businesses, all of which were met with medium success. Am finally a homeowner (just barely) and still eating bologna trying to make ends meet.

I think hardship is a way of life for all of us. It's no harder for anybody than it has been for me. In fact, were I a different color I may have qualified for some scholarship, or some great job, or perhaps some exceptional school. Oh and btw, it's very likely that I am not nearly as 'white' as you think I am. Neither by birth nor culture.

More like olive spotted, with cream undertones, and red highlights.
So, you have worked on plantation [Dole, Libby's, Del Monte, etc.] with fellow workers who are Japanese, Chinese, Portuguese, Filipino, Hawaiian, living in plantation barracks, or at least your parents did?

[Frankie's Market]

I think hardship is a way of life for all of us. It's no harder for anybody than it has been for me. In fact, were I a different color I may have qualified for some scholarship, or some great job, or perhaps some exceptional school.

As anyone who has personally experienced racial discrimination can tell you, be careful of what you wish for. Gotta take the bad with the good. And when it comes to minorities who live in a bigoted community, there's a lot more bad than good.

Oh and btw, it's very likely that I am not nearly as 'white' as you think I am. Neither by birth nor culture.

In that case, what are you complaining about?

[TuNnL]

It's no harder for anybody than it has been for me. In fact, were I a different color I may have qualified for some scholarship, or some great job, or perhaps some exceptional school.Tim, the fact that you continue to spew this ignorant garbage proves you haven’t learned a thing during the time you have lived here. Living on the farm doesn’t even begin to compare to the hardship suffered by nearly every Japanese family here in the islands. These men were lured to the islands with the promise of riches, only to be exploited for slave wages on sugar plantations, while their family remained in Japan for years, or even decades... unable to afford the move.

Beginning after December 7, 1941, Japanese men, women and children were rounded up by the thousands, and warehoused in internment camps where some died due to the squalid living conditions. The only real difference between these camps and Nazi Germany concentration camps, is they didn’t slaughter the inhabitants. Property — sometimes large tracts of land — were confiscated and never returned by the federal government. Young Japanese American men enlisted in the U.S. Army and were shipped off to Germany and the European theatre where they fought bravely, not just for their country as true patriots, but for their imprisoned loved ones. Their unit — the 442nd Regimental Combat Team stands today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Regimental_Combat_Team) as the most decorated unit in the history of the U.S. Army.

There were no “equal opportunity employment” laws for these veterans or their family back then. They simply had rise above the ashes and start over. The white aristocracy they fought to expunge from the ranks of power is representative of the class struggle fought by African Americans and Chinese railroad workers on the U.S. mainland. And you want to talk about hardship? Puh-leez. Since when was a white boy like yourself or anyone in your family
(blood, not marriage) ever discriminated against because of your race? And don’t confuse race and ethnicity. Two entirely different things. :rolleyes:

[Kalalau]

I had understood that people of Japanese ancestry living in Hawai'i during WW2 were not herded away to detainment camps, that that only happened on the mainland, mainly in California. This is a big change from the official history.

[matapule]

Japanese men, women and children were rounded up by the thousands, and warehoused in internment camps where some died due to the squalid living conditions. The only real difference between these camps and Nazi Germany concentration camps, is they didn’t slaughter the inhabitants. Property — sometimes large tracts of land — were confiscated and never returned

Tunnl, go easy. I agree with much of what you say, but you are over reaching here. I grew up in the San Joaquin Valley with Japanese kids that were born in those Internment Camps with names like Okamura, Kawasaki, Matsumoto, Nakamura, etc. As I recall there were three different camps in Arizona where Japanese Americans from California were shipped after the outbreak of hostilities. Although they were internment camps, they didn't even come close to being Nazi concentration camps. I talked to my friends parents. They told me they were treated well, they had plenty of food, they had plenty of clothing, and they had heat during the winter. Maybe they lied to me, but I don't think so. Did it leave a bad taste in their mouths? Yes it did!, but it wasn't even close to a concentration camp.

As far as confiscation of property, I did not know of any Japanese family that lost their property as a result of internment, but I'm sure it did happen, I just don't know how often. What happened is that the Japanese' Anglo neighbors watched over their property while they were gone. There were, and continue to be, strong neighborly ties between adjacent land owners in that area, despite a difference in ethnic background - even Japanese during WWII.

The whole internment debacle was a travesty, but let's not overstate the case.

[sinjin]

"In Hawaii, there was no mass internment of Japanese-Americans, even though they made up about 1/3 of the population. The Japanese-Americans workers were crucial to the sugar and pineapple plantations. However, about 1800 Japanese-Americans in Hawaii were sent to internment camps in the mainland U.S. These interned Hawaiian Japanese-Americans were prominent in the community or otherwise thought to be some sort of risk. Unfortunately, the entire family was interned, not just those who were considered to be disloyal or a risk to national security. Initially, internees were kept at Sand Island and Honouliuli on Oahu, and the Kilauea Military Camp on the Island of Hawaii. Many were subsequently transferred to mainland camps."
http://www.hawaiischoolreports.com/history/internment.htm

"'Ironically, the territory with the largest Japanese population saw the least discrimination. More than one third of all residents of Hawaii had some Japanese ancestry. Japanese labor was considered vital to the civilian and military economics of the Hawaiian Islands. Besides, the views of Delos Emmons, military commander of Hawaii, were the opposite of those of General DeWitt.'

-from the book Japanese-American internment in American History, 1996.

As noted in some of the other reviews, there were a very small number of people arrested and detained in Hawaii and a small number that voluntarily went to the mainland camps, but primarily so they could find relatives. There was not a single act of sabotage in Hawaii by the Japanese Americans during the entire war.

In addition, since there were so many people of Japanese ancestry already living in Hawaii, about a third of the population, racism was not at all the kind of problem it was on the west coast."
http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/camp.html

[Kalalau]

I apologize that this varies some off topic, but it does fit in its own way. There was also a deportation of Mexican-American American citizens, during the 1930's. Whole families were packed onto trains and shipped into Mexico, even if they had been citizens for generations, even if their ancestors had lived in territories before they even became states. This happened in California and in Michigan, mainly. It was a panic reaction during the Depression. Property was confiscated; stolen. It might be difficult to accept, but the evil that lives in the human heart that made the Holocaust possible, or the rape of Nanking, was not unique to the German people or the Japanese, it lives in our human race and if it is encouraged to grow by demagogic politicians or incendiary talk radio it can produce horrible results again. Michael Reagan has advocated slaughtering Muslim babies, his show is carried on dozens of stations from coast to coast.

[Leo Lakio]

that that only happened on the mainland, mainly in California.All over the West Coast - there was a large Japanese-American population here in the Seattle/Puget Sound region, all shipped off to the camps. For background on some of the more detailed cases, look up:

> Gordon Hirabayashi, who openly defied internment orders, was convicted on a charge of violating curfew & relocation orders, lost his case all the way up to the Supreme Court (1943), and finally had the convictions overturned in 1986/1987.

> Bainbridge Island, just across the water from Seattle, where there was a large Japanese-American population, primarily berry farmers. When they were all interned, a handful of them were able to leave their farms in the hands of their Filipino workers, who kept the farms viable until the owners returned. In at least one case, upon their return, the Japanese-American family adopted the lead Filipino worker as a son, and gave him his own land. Today, both ethnic communities are strongly linked on the Island. David Guterson's "Snow Falling On Cedars" is set in a fictional world based on Bainbridge Island.

> The Japanese-American community of Seattle, an active community prior to WWII, most of whose property was seized by the government when the owners were shipped off to the camps.

I talked to my friends parents. They told me they were treated well, they had plenty of food, they had plenty of clothing, and they had heat during the winter. Maybe they lied to me, but I don't think so.It would be very much in the nature of the Nikkei character of the time to not complain about what happened - or not to talk about it at all. Let's not say they "lied" to you ... it was just something "uncomfortable" for them to address.

As far as confiscation of property, I did not know of any Japanese family that lost their property as a result of internment, but I'm sure it did happen, I just don't know how often.Often. The majority of families lost their property and belongings; only a handful had their property "watched over," as most white Americans believed the propaganda about "the Japs." It even happened in Western Canada.

The whole internment debacle was a travesty, but let's not overstate the case.One of the most shameful chapters in American history. TuNnL doesn't overstate the case --- the history books that we learned from understated it for far too long.

[matapule]

TuNnL doesn't overstate the case

Nazi concentration camp? No way!

[timkona]

Since when was a white boy like yourself or anyone in your family (blood, not marriage) ever discriminated against because of your race?

Certainly happened a bit in Oakland, CA. And has certainly happened here in Hawaii. In fact, my views on race and racism have changed drastically since moving to Hawaii thanks to the incredibly racist environment that exists here.

They simply had rise above the ashes and start over.

Now TuNnL, are you trying to say they did it without some special school policy, and without some kind of gummint assisitance? Are you trying to say they did it on their own merit, with their own grit and determination? You are just inches away from contradicting yourself.

[Random]

Tunnl, go easy. I agree with much of what you say, but you are over reaching here. I grew up in the San Joaquin Valley with Japanese kids that were born in those Internment Camps with names like Okamura, Kawasaki, Matsumoto, Nakamura, etc. As I recall there were three different camps in Arizona where Japanese Americans from California were shipped after the outbreak of hostilities. Although they were internment camps, they didn't even come close to being Nazi concentration camps. I talked to my friends parents. They told me they were treated well, they had plenty of food, they had plenty of clothing, and they had heat during the winter. Maybe they lied to me, but I don't think so. Did it leave a bad taste in their mouths? Yes it did!, but it wasn't even close to a concentration camp.
You may note the distinction between concentration camp and internment camp, but had you been a Japanese living in the US, you certainly do not like being forcibly evicted from your home you or your family have worked so hard to build in a white-dominated country to live in such a spartan household with no freedom, all because you happen to look like the enemy. A prison with many comforts is still a prison anyway.

I'm just wondering how many Germans have been rounded up? Most certainly fewer than the Japanese if any have been interned.

[matapule]

You may note the distinction between concentration camp and internment camp, but had you been a Japanese living in the US, you certainly do not like being forcibly evicted from your home you or your family have worked so hard to build in a white-dominated country to live in such a spartan household with no freedom, all because you happen to look like the enemy. A prison with many comforts is still a prison anyway.

I don't disagree.

I'm just wondering how many Germans have been rounded up? Most certainly fewer than the Japanese if any have been interned.

My in-laws were part of a large group of Germans living in that same San Joaquin Valley during that same period of Japanese internment. They were members of the pacifist Mennonite sect and were consciencious objectors and refused induction into the services. Interestingly, they did not seem to suffer any discrimination as the Japanese did. Doesn't seem fair, does it? However, many of those same Germans were caretakers of Japanese farms during the internment and returned the land to their neighbors when they returned.

[Random]

However, many of those same Germans were caretakers of Japanese farms during the internment and returned the land to their neighbors when they returned.
Good for the Japanese farmers, but what about those who live in cities or have non-farming businesses?

[matapule]

Good for the Japanese farmers, but what about those who live in cities or have non-farming businesses?

I can't speak to that. I can only speak to what my experience is. Do you have some direct experience with those Japanese in California who lived in cities or had non-farming businesses?

[Leo Lakio]

I've got direct experience with many Nikkei families from the Puget Sound region, who had everything taken from them when they were locked away. Many of the buildings in Seattle's International District used to house their shops and businesses, and much has been written about what they lost. The Wing Luke Museum here has many historical materials about these families, and the University of Washington recently assembled an exhibit on all the students who were sent off prior to graduation; they recently held a ceremony to honor them and grant them degrees.

[sinjin]

I can't speak to that. I can only speak to what my experience is. Do you have some direct experience with those Japanese in California who lived in cities or had non-farming businesses?
"Over 6,000 Little Tokyo residents were forced to leave their homes and businesses. When they left, African Americans, many of them wartime workers, moved into the vacated buildings and for a time, the neighborhood was known as 'Bronzeville'.
After the war, Japanese Americans gradually returned to Little Tokyo, but due to enormous property losses, it took years for the neighborhood to come back to life."
http://www.eyespyla.com/www/phlog.nsf/c49c3ddac07ab9258825714500696978/6224faebf4b1ebe50825735b005c14af!OpenDocument

"July 2,1948 - Evacuation Claims Act passed, giving internees until January 3.1950 to file claims against the government for damages to or loss of real or personal property consequence of the evacuation. Total of $31 million paid by the government for property lost by internees-- equaling less than 10 cents per dollar lost."
http://www.momomedia.com/CLPEF/chrono.html

[timkona]

http://news.aol.com/article/whites-fading-fast-as-majority-in-us/132730?icid=200100125x1207755931x1200385672

Uh-oh. Bad news for bigots, racists, "preference" people, and other left leaning hypocrites.

But don't worry. I would never start a school, or a social program designed to help whites only.

[Random]

But don't worry. I would never start a school, or a social program designed to help whites only.
Hmm. I wonder if that's a jab at Kamehameha School.

Not a good place for such discussion.

But in response to your post and the article you linked, I call it karmic payback.

[timkona]

I doubt that KS is the only school in America selecting students with a preference for race. There are probably lots of schools like Kamehameha, where admissions policies openly state a preference, within the limits of the law.

I wonder how all the Japanese were able to recover from the WWII issues without some social program, or benefit? Do they benefit from Affirmative Action? After all, there are fewer of them than blacks.

Hey TuNnL, what say you? Do you think some groups can make it on their own merit? And what sets those groups apart from the one's who cannot make it without some preference policy?

You ever read "The Bell Curve" ?

[Ron Whitfield]

TK, do you need to be reminded that the ratio for left leaning hypocrites/bigots/racists compared to the right is highly imbalanced?
The right has based much of it's history, base, and success on these gutter merits.

The McCane campaigne is now being run by Karl Rove's machine, probably the most dirty of the dirty, politically obsesed, hypocritical/bigoted/racist, and flat out unAmerican bunch ever. They are now finding new success in the Presidential race using their lowest road tactics, and old flip floppin' Johnny boy is quite happy with it.

This race will most likely be decided on race, showing this country is still way down on the intelligence totem pole.

[TuNnL]

TuNnL, are you trying to say they did it without some special school policy, and without some kind of gummint assisitance? Are you trying to say they did it on their own merit, with their own grit and determination?World War II ended in 1945, so the surviving 442nd nisei, if they so chose, were able to take advantage of the Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944 (a.k.a. the G.I. Bill).

For the rest, the first affirmative action laws were not implemented until 1961 — two years after statehood was granted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Admission_Act). So yes, most had to “do it on their own merit, with their own grit and determination” for 16 years.

[/History 101]
You are just inches away from contradicting yourself.I don’t see how I am, but I trust you will explain what you mean by this.