Any amateur filmakers out there?

[Hilo Artist]

Just wanted to connect with other amateur film or video makers out there.
I started on this journey about two years ago and just completed my first full lenght hour long documentary about my father inlaw who lives a sustainable life in the ways of the past plantation days of the Hamakua Coast on the Big Island.

Prior to this project , I did a 56 minute video called Journey to Keiki Hula. As it was my first, it was sort of horrendous, my white balance was off on many scenes and my composition was very amateurish.

I am also doing a childrens TV show here in Hilo similar to Kikaida.

Anyone out there please join in and lets talk shop!

Aloha Hilo Artist

[MyopicJoe]

just completed my first full lenght hour long documentary

Nice! How many hours of hard work went into making that one hour of video, would you guess?


Glad you started this, Hilo Artist. I remember an old HT thread which mentioned a local Final Cut Pro users group (http://www.hawaiifcpug.org/). I wonder if they're still kickin' around.

I'm an amateur. Home video stuff of the girls' performances. Authored my first DVD recently. It was a frustrating process until I figured out a decent workflow.

I'll give a quick blurb, since it's getting late:

camcorder: Sony DCR-HC96 (consumer grade)
filters: none
tripod: quick release mounting plate, light, cheap (doesn't pan smoothly)
mic: built-in (I know, the shame)

iMovie: data capture, deciding which footage to keep, rough editing
Final Cut Express: further editing, filters, chapter markers
iDVD: creating DVD menus and burning

misc:
some cheap Memorex software / DVD labels (paper)
whatever bargin DVD-R media I have on hand which transform into drink coasters 2 years after being burned

[TuNnL]

camcorder: Sony DCR-HC96 (consumer grade)
filters: none
tripod: quick release mounting plate, light, cheap (doesn't pan smoothly)
mic: built-in (I know, the shame)So glad to see HT members practicing the trade! Just a quick note: I’m sure you are aware what you did is not considered “filmmaking.” While many new Hollywood producers are turning to HD, a video format, filmmaking is still a term reserved for crews that actually shoot on film. Preferably, 35mm. ;)

I myself, only shoot on video. A bit more advanced in the equipment, though, using a Sony PD-150 semi-professional camcorder (which comes with an external XLR shotgun mic), although I’m still saving up for a decent everything else (tripod, headphones, handheld mic, lavalier mic, light kit, etc.)

[MyopicJoe]

I’m sure you are aware what you did is not considered “filmmaking.”

Haha, yeah. Even if I did use real film, I wouldn't consider myself a filmmaker. There's so much behind the scenes work and planning that goes into it. Naw; I just dabble. I just record events, for fun.

I have a friend who went to film school. She hates video and she hates digital photography. I agree digital doesn't have the same qualities as film, but I love how digital technology has made these fields more accessible.

When South Park came out, professional animators would turn their noses up at it, because "that's not animation!" True, but the cartoons are still great. In their particular case, the animation isn't the most important thing, it's the writing. Conversely, a Hayao Miyazaki film wouldn't be as great if it was done in Flash.


using a Sony PD-150 semi-professional camcorder

Oh, sweet!

My fantasy camcorder is the PD-170. I'd love to have its low-light capabilities, since most of the girls' performances are at night or indoors. I just can't justify the $3K price tag (not to mention all the accessories), for something I would use only 4 times a year.


I’m still saving up for a decent everything else (tripod, headphones, handheld mic, lavalier mic, light kit, etc.)

So what do you think you'll grab first? Which models are you eying out?


I read some internet advice on tripods, which said to buy photography legs and a camcorder head. *shrug*

[Hilo Artist]

Nice! How many hours of hard work went into making that one hour of video, would you guess?


Glad you started this, Hilo Artist. I remember an old HT thread which mentioned a local Final Cut Pro users group (http://www.hawaiifcpug.org/). I wonder if they're still kickin' around.

I'm an amateur. Home video stuff of the girls' performances. Authored my first DVD recently. It was a frustrating process until I figured out a decent workflow.

I'll give a quick blurb, since it's getting late:

camcorder: Sony DCR-HC96 (consumer grade)
filters: none
tripod: quick release mounting plate, light, cheap (doesn't pan smoothly)
mic: built-in (I know, the shame)

iMovie: data capture, deciding which footage to keep, rough editing
Final Cut Express: further editing, filters, chapter markers
iDVD: creating DVD menus and burning

misc:
some cheap Memorex software / DVD labels (paper)
whatever bargin DVD-R media I have on hand which transform into drink coasters 2 years after being burned

Myopicjoe!
Thanks for your reply!

As for the one hour piece I recently completed, One year of filming!
I have to leave for a soccer game , I will catch up with you when I return!
Aloha
Layne

[tutusue]

So glad to see HT members practicing the trade! Just a quick note: I’m sure you are aware what you did is not considered “filmmaking.” While many new Hollywood producers are turning to HD, a video format, filmmaking is still a term reserved for crews that actually shoot on film. Preferably, 35mm. ;)[...]
True, but the term "filmmaking" has become a bit obscured by new technology. I'm from the old film=filmmaking school too but I've noticed, in discussions with clients, that's not necessarily the case anymore.

Layne, at this point, you might benefit for the Yahoo! group, hawaii-filmmakers. Most don't shoot on film because it's too expensive.

Tunnl, do you peruse that group?

[Composite 2992]

The argument of video vs film is gradually (and gratefully) becoming a moot point.

The line separating video and film is becoming increasingly vague as acquisition and post-production processes evolve toward digital technology. And a growing number of directors are adopting the changes.

For example, all visual effects are now done by digitizing film and working within the digital domain. And steps such as color correction and grading are done via a "digital intermediate" in which the digitized film is finished with computers, and not through mechanical or chemical processes.

Even editing is being done digitally on non-linear systems in a greater number of cases.

And cameras from companies such as Red, Panavision and Sony are capturing action digitally from the very start. These aren't considered video cameras but digital film cameras. Cameras like the Sony EX1 and Panasonic HVX use similar technologies to these higher-end cameras, so they're less about video and more about digital film.

Video cameras are starting to go tapeless. The images are now captured as individual frames onto hard drives or high-capacity memory cards, and not as an interlaced signal tape. And the action is recorded as digital data instead of an electrical or magnetic signal. The imagers are far more sensitive to a much wider brightness range. And now the results with some of these cameras are much more like film and a lot less like video.

Finally, some theatres are converting to digital projection. No film. When it's all done right, the results can be truly outstanding.

[Hilo Artist]

I should have titled it video makers! But with video cameras now shooting 24 frames per second it is so very close to the image of 35mm film now. As was mentioned in the post by

Composite 2992
Yes, The EX 1 and the HVX 200 both shoot in 24 frame mode and I believe both are tapeless.

The HVX 200 uses a P2 card and is said to equal the shooting qualities of the Varicam and Cine Alta which has a price tage 100 K. the HVX 200 retails around $5 grand which is a bargain for the the outstanding qualities it has.

I am sure heading that route of the HVX 200 but in the mean time I have to beef up my system to handle all of the HD memory space needed and a super video card as well.

At this point I am shooting with a Panasonic AG DVC 60 , Panasonic PVGS 320 which consumer, and an Ag DVX 100b which has an option to shoot 24 frame and has a slight film like appearance.

My DVC 60 has a Film simulation mode and is not a true 24 frame mode. it has a pretty cool look but is nowhere near the quality of real 35 mm.

I am still running on PC, everyone around me has a Mac and I will be soon changing over as well. I am running 4 gbs of ram and a pretty decent video card.

My editing programs are Pinncale, Sony Vegas, and Adobe Premier Pro. I used Final Cut Pro on a Mac format and loved it's smoothness and outstanding features. I am definitly cutting on Final Cut Pro soon!

I also use a Rode NTG 2 shot gun mic for all of my work. It's a pretty cool mic and not to bad for a mic not running on Phantom power.There is a NTG 3 out which is a phantom powered one and I am headed that route as well.

For a tripod, I use a Bogen Manfrotto 3120. The pan head is not a true fluid head but does a nice job on panning. I am looking to switch over to the newer 3198 which has a true fluid head.


For my rough house filming at the beach and in the forrest, I use my simple PVGS 320 which has nice images in sunlight. This small camera is great for climbing down cliffs and fitting into the back pack.

Here are some footage I shot with the small PVGS 320
http://www.dailymotion.com/luna_fine_art/video/x3z5u9_the-art-of-moi-and-aholehole-fishin_people
Another one with the small gs 320
http://www.dailymotion.com/luna_fine_art/video/x65kam_summer-time-fishing-with-hillary_people

This one was shot with my DVC 60 it has bigger CCD chips
http://www.dailymotion.com/luna_fine_art/video/x3ex2b_art-of-layne-luna_creation

The quality of the hosting sites are terribly pixeled..I need to learn a few tricks on how to get them looking better online.

Aloha
Layne

[tutusue]

[...]
For my rough house filming at the beach and in the forrest, I use my simple PVGS 320 which has nice images in sunlight. This small camera is great for climbing down cliffs and fitting into the back pack.[...]
I use the older PV GS150 for my casting sessions and whatta great series of cameras these are. The 3 chip quality for the price is amazing. When I send it in for a yearly cleaning and have to use my back-up one chipper, I almost feel like I should give my clients a credit on my bill for lack of quality! These 3 chip, consumer grade camcorders are so affordable now I don't know why anyone would settle for anything less.

filters: nope! never owned any!
tripod: yep! what MJ said..."quick release mounting plate, light, cheap (doesn't pan smoothly)" but it's completely adequate for my needs.
mic: built-in condensor...used to have a Radio Shack lapel mic which worked great for my needs but it's not compatible with the 150.
iMovie HD - too much fun. It keeps me up half the night playing with it!

And, that's as techie as I can possibly get! I can't even pronounce some of the words in Composite's and Layne's discussion! :D

[LikaNui]

If you'll allow me a quick and relatively minor (but still related) thread drift:
Last weekend I took more photos on Kaneohe Bay, and one of the boats had a couple who were in their 70s and don't own a computer. When I saw them back on shore, they asked if they could get a copy of the negatives.
I had to explain digital to them. :p

See? Told you it was kinda related.
Carry on. Interesting thread.

[Hilo Artist]

If you'll allow me a quick and relatively minor (but still related) thread drift:
Last weekend I took more photos on Kaneohe Bay, and one of the boats had a couple who were in their 70s and don't own a computer. When I saw them back on shore, they asked if they could get a copy of the negatives.
I had to explain digital to them. :p

See? Told you it was kinda related.
Carry on. Interesting thread.


Hillarious! Nice story and a sign of the times! we are fully digital age and I love it!

[Hilo Artist]

I use the older PV GS150 for my casting sessions and whatta great series of cameras these are. The 3 chip quality for the price is amazing. When I send it in for a yearly cleaning and have to use my back-up one chipper, I almost feel like I should give my clients a credit on my bill for lack of quality! These 3 chip, consumer grade camcorders are so affordable now I don't know why anyone would settle for anything less.

filters: nope! never owned any!
tripod: yep! what MJ said..."quick release mounting plate, light, cheap (doesn't pan smoothly)" but it's completely adequate for my needs.
mic: built-in condensor...used to have a Radio Shack lapel mic which worked great for my needs but it's not compatible with the 150.
iMovie HD - too much fun. It keeps me up half the night playing with it!

And, that's as techie as I can possibly get! I can't even pronounce some of the words in Composite's and Layne's discussion! :D

Tutusue

Your gs150 has a few great features that is not present on my newer model gs 320. I think one of them is the presence of a mic input that my camcorder doesnt have.

Keep that little 3 ccd 150! It's easy to use and produces a great image! If my memory serves me correct 530 lines per resolution aint to shabby and looks good on broadcast TV!

Aloha
Layne

[tutusue]

Tutusue

Your gs150 has a few great features that is not present on my newer model gs 320. I think one of them is the presence of a mic input that my camcorder doesnt have.

Keep that little 3 ccd 150! It's easy to use and produces a great image! If my memory serves me correct 530 lines per resolution aint to shabby and looks good on broadcast TV!

Aloha
Layne
Thanks, Layne. Fortunately, I don't need broadcast quality for my job. But, dang, those 3 ccds spoiled me and my clients! Yes, my 150 does have a mic input but I really don't need it as the zoom mic function is totally adequate. You're close...I believe the resolution is 540 lines!

[MyopicJoe]

TutuSue:

Thanks for pointing out that Yahoo group. I'm waiting for my join request to be accepted.

I'm glad you're happy with your Panasonic. I was seriously considering one, cuz of the sweet 3 CCDs and the optical image stabilization. I ended up getting my Sony because I found it for a good price. I also thought the single (but larger) CCD would help in low light situations.


Composite 2992:

Thanks for pointing out the Panasonic HVX. Look at this guy's tricked out HVX (http://www.timklassenproductions.com/). I have a feeling he won't be running around after kids with that setup. ;)


Hilo Artist:

Come join the dark side! Now that Macs are Intel based, at you can duel dual boot either Mac OS X or Windows, though I don't bother myself. My desktops have been PC and my laptops have been Mac.

I assume if you get a Mac, you'll buy a Mac Pro rather than an iMac. If you do go iMac, you might want to stay away from the 20" model, because they use a cheaper 6-bit LCD (it can't show millions of colors without quality reducing tricks...but maybe only people with really good eyes would notice?). It's the same LCD screen used in laptops, even the MacBookPro. The 24" iMAC uses a better quality LCD screen. I think that's why Apple Stores display more 24" models than 20" models.

Of course if you hook up a higher quality external monitor, then no big deal. Here's a LCD buyer's guide (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y).

Nice videos. Yeah, the high compression used by hosting sites makes it hard to judge a camera's image quality. But considering your DVC 60 video seems to have better quality than the PVGS 320 one AND it was shot indoors, I think that's pretty impressive.


LikaNui:

Heh heh, cute story :)

[tutusue]

TutuSue:

Thanks for pointing out that Yahoo group. I'm waiting for my join request to be accepted.

I'm glad you're happy with your Panasonic. I was seriously considering one, cuz of the sweet 3 CCDs and the optical image stabilization. I ended up getting my Sony because I found it for a good price. I also thought the single (but larger) CCD would help in low light situations.[...]
I'm a Sony loyalist...rather, I'm a Video Life loyalist...and was really disappointed when the Sony's that work best for my needs went to bottom load tapes. My camera is on a tripod 95% of the time and when it's time to change tapes, time is of the essence.

Still love Video Life, tho'. Their customer service is well worth any savings I might find online.

[acousticlady]

I'm not sure I'd call myself a film maker (or video maker) but I'm definitely a wannabe producer. The difference being that I wouldn't have a clue what kind of camera was used, just who was hired to know that stuff. I got into it through my music contacts. Produced a couple of silly physics videos that have done ok. I'm currently working on putting together an animated series and interactive web site. Does that count?

[Mike_Lowery]

I've made an amateur video before. :D

Won't say much more. :o

[Walkoff Balk]

I've made an amateur video before. :D

Won't say much more. :o
Is it with Kim Kardashian? How is she a star when she hasn't done any legit acting?

[Hilo Artist]

TutuSue:

Thanks for pointing out that Yahoo group. I'm waiting for my join request to be accepted.

I'm glad you're happy with your Panasonic. I was seriously considering one, cuz of the sweet 3 CCDs and the optical image stabilization. I ended up getting my Sony because I found it for a good price. I also thought the single (but larger) CCD would help in low light situations.


Composite 2992:

Thanks for pointing out the Panasonic HVX. Look at this guy's tricked out HVX (http://www.timklassenproductions.com/). I have a feeling he won't be running around after kids with that setup. ;)


Hilo Artist:

Come join the dark side! Now that Macs are Intel based, at you can duel dual boot either Mac OS X or Windows, though I don't bother myself. My desktops have been PC and my laptops have been Mac.

I assume if you get a Mac, you'll buy a Mac Pro rather than an iMac. If you do go iMac, you might want to stay away from the 20" model, because they use a cheaper 6-bit LCD (it can't show millions of colors without quality reducing tricks...but maybe only people with really good eyes would notice?). It's the same LCD screen used in laptops, even the MacBookPro. The 24" iMAC uses a better quality LCD screen. I think that's why Apple Stores display more 24" models than 20" models.

Of course if you hook up a higher quality external monitor, then no big deal. Here's a LCD buyer's guide (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y).

Nice videos. Yeah, the high compression used by hosting sites makes it hard to judge a camera's image quality. But considering your DVC 60 video seems to have better quality than the PVGS 320 one AND it was shot indoors, I think that's pretty impressive.


LikaNui:

Heh heh, cute story :)

Myopicjoe

Been window shoping for a new Mac desk top and all I can say is GULP! Went to the site and did that configure your dream mac now with adding on all the options . The base price was $2700 and after adding all the goodies I wanted the price tag went through the roof! $16 grand! Yikes not now!

Those things can come with up to 32 gb of ram! and 4 hardrive bays with a terabyte each! Two 3.2 ghz intel Quadcore Xeon processors.

That is my dream machine and something that would hold unlimited video and also work like a souped up jet in post production. I can't even imagine how that machine would react...Anyone out there with a similar machine please elaborate and fill me in on working with this elite piece of equipment...

[TuNnL]

Those things can come with up to 32 gb of ram! and 4 hardrive bays with a terabyte each! Two 3.2 ghz intel Quadcore Xeon processors. That is my dream machine and something that would hold unlimited video and also work like a souped up jet in post production.What I want to know is: how the hell do you fit 32 GB of RAM in a single tower case? I haven’t kept up with the technological advances since the G4 but this “Fully Buffered DIMM” stuff must be a quantum leap in memory capacity logistics. :eek:

[dick]

I'm fiddling with an XL1s... SD, but good fun indeed.

[Hilo Artist]

I'm fiddling with an XL1s... SD, but good fun indeed.
Xl1 is a great camera! My friend used his for at least five years filming a local TV show here in Hilo unitl the tape mechanism finally locked up on him.
The XL1 has a metal body and is strong as a tank not like these newer prosumers with plastic bodies. I believe you can also interchange the lens as well!
The Xl1's 3 1/3 CCD chips on this produces broadcast quality image! I believe it's still a classic all around great camcorder!

[Hilo Artist]

What I want to know is: how the hell do you fit 32 GB of RAM in a single tower case? I haven’t kept up with the technological advances since the G4 but this “Fully Buffered DIMM” stuff must be a quantum leap in memory capacity logistics. :eek:

I have a hard time believing the 32 gbs as well...The price tag on the ram alone was $9200 or something of that nature.

I still would like to hear someone out there who owns one. On the other hand, I think we would not be able to see the post as that machine would be way too fast and we would only see a blur of written words!:p

[Composite 2992]

I priced out a Mac Pro and upgraded to a very nice machine. This doesn't include a monitor but I'm using the same 23" LCD Cinema display I've had for the past few years:

* Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon (8-core)
* 2GB (2 x 1GB)
* 320GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
* ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 256MB (Two dual-link DVI)
* One 16x SuperDrive
* Apple Mighty Mouse
* Apple Keyboard (English) + Mac OS X

$3,048.00

RAM, from Other World Computing:

8GB Mac Pro 800MHz Kit 2GB x 4 FB $379.00
Matched Modules 2.0GB per for Mac Pro Quad Xeon/8-Core Qualified with Apple Qualified Heat-Spreader. LifeTime Advance Replacement Warranty.

This was added to existing RAM which gives it a total of 10 GB.

Total was less than $3,400.

[MyopicJoe]

I have a hard time believing the 32 gbs as well...

Fully Buffered DIMMs (FB-DIMM) aren't used in most desktop motherboards, due to their higher cost and the extra heat they generate. You typically find them in high performance servers.

Regular DIMMs communicate with the motherboard using a parallel interface, like the old IDE hard drives. FB-DIMMs use a serial interface, like the newer SATA hard drives. This serial interface requires a special chip to be placed on the FB-DIMM, which increases costs. The chip also generates a lot of heat, requiring large heat sinks, further raising the price.

From what I found on the Internet, you typically have 8 FB-DIMM slots on your motherboard, with up to 16. I'm not sure if they have dual-memory channel configurations for FB-DIMMs, but if they do, then that's potentially 32 slots. Drop 4GB FB-DIMMs in there and you have a whopping 128 GB of RAM (http://www.shivaranjan.com/2007/06/12/server-with-128gb-ram-and-8-dual-core-amd-opterons/). Crazy.


The price tag on the ram alone was $9200 or something of that nature.Apple tends to over price their computer upgrades. Their target customer isn't a techy. Such a customer wants Apple to worry about the details, so they can concentrate on their art. Apple is happy to do that for them, for a price.

If you don't mind tinkering around with your computer (or you have a techy friend to help), you can save a good chunk of cash. The trade off is you need to do more homework, and sometimes things don't work smoothly, requiring patience.


Let's look at the RAM. Apple's 32 GB option (8 x 4 GB) costs $9100. NewEgg carries Mushkin (a respected name brand) matched pair memory kits (2 x 4 GB) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146781) for $580. If you buy 4 of them, you'll have a 32 GB solution which costs you $2,320. You can save yourself $6780.

Now if that sounds too good to be true, that means you need to do a little research, to make sure you're not missing an important detail. If you read Apple's description about their memory (http://store.apple.com/us/learnmore/MA970LL/A?group=mac_pro_memory), they mention "a more robust thermal specification for the Mac Pro FB-DIMM heat sinks that provide more efficient cooling than many other FB-DIMMs." Their FB-DIMMs have intimidating looking heat sinks on them; much larger than the ones on the Mushkins. The question is, do these over sized heat sinks matter, or are they just for show?

Now you can do a little online investigating. Some people will say they've done testing and smaller heat sinks are fine (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-10-25/#6071), but were their testing methods flawed? Are they friends with people who sell FB-DIMMs with small heat sinks? You also have other companies who say Apple is right, you need large heat sinks. Ours are pricey, but not as pricey as Apple's. Buy from us (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2706)!

The main lesson from all of this is when you strike it out on your own, you have to bear some amount of risk and uncertainty. You need to ask yourself if the risks are worth the reward.


With absolutely no experience with FB-DIMMs for Mac Pro's, this is my gut feeling:

For a video editing enthusiast, I think the smaller heat sinks are fine. You're not likely to drive your computer hard 24/7 for weeks on end. Maybe your computer will run hotter with a noisier fan, but maybe it won't annoy you much. And if your RAM does fail, you might lose a few hours of work, but nothing you couldn't recover from. The price of failure is small.

If you're a large production studio, you might have hundreds of Mac Pro's in a server farm. They can be churning stuff out 24/7, producing huge volumes of data. Heat failure won't cause a small bicycle accident, it'll create a train wreck, which can cost tens of thousands of dollars in lost work and schedule slip. The price of failure is high.

Of course it's doubtful you'd need 32 GB of RAM, so you could go with Composite 2992's suggestion of lower density modules with large heat sinks from Other World Computing (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/Mac-Pro-Memory). Endless choices to drive yourself crazy with!

Hmm. Even their 32 GB solution is cheaper than the Muskin one I suggested, and they seem to have the larger heat sinks. Thanks for pointing the website out, Composite!


Going with non-Apple hard drives is pretty safe. Same for video cards (though you might want to make sure the card can physically fit inside the case, and that it doesn't require extra power cables which the Mac Pro might not have). With RAID cards in general, you have to watch out for the cheap ones. These cards are bare bones and have low performance. Higher performing RAID cards have a dedicated CPU on the card to manage the RAID. Try to find performance benchmarks.

Another thing to keep in mind is whether a piece of non-Apple hardware has sufficient software support for Mac OS X. Sometimes the lack of support might cause a few annoyances. Sometimes it might make your hardware unusable.


Apple upgrades can be a good deal. You need to do a little math to see if it's worthwhile to go elsewhere.


machine would be way too fast and we would only see a blur of written words!:D

[Hilo Artist]

Fully Buffered DIMMs (FB-DIMM) aren't used in most desktop motherboards, due to their higher cost and the extra heat they generate. You typically find them in high performance servers.

Regular DIMMs communicate with the motherboard using a parallel interface, like the old IDE hard drives. FB-DIMMs use a serial interface, like the newer SATA hard drives. This serial interface requires a special chip to be placed on the FB-DIMM, which increases costs. The chip also generates a lot of heat, requiring large heat sinks, further raising the price.

From what I found on the Internet, you typically have 8 FB-DIMM slots on your motherboard, with up to 16. I'm not sure if they have dual-memory channel configurations for FB-DIMMs, but if they do, then that's potentially 32 slots. Drop 4GB FB-DIMMs in there and you have a whopping 128 GB of RAM (http://www.shivaranjan.com/2007/06/12/server-with-128gb-ram-and-8-dual-core-amd-opterons/). Crazy.


Apple tends to over price their computer upgrades. Their target customer isn't a techy. Such a customer wants Apple to worry about the details, so they can concentrate on their art. Apple is happy to do that for them, for a price.

If you don't mind tinkering around with your computer (or you have a techy friend to help), you can save a good chunk of cash. The trade off is you need to do more homework, and sometimes things don't work smoothly, requiring patience.


Let's look at the RAM. Apple's 32 GB option (8 x 4 GB) costs $9100. NewEgg carries Mushkin (a respected name brand) matched pair memory kits (2 x 4 GB) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146781) for $580. If you buy 4 of them, you'll have a 32 GB solution which costs you $2,320. You can save yourself $6780.

Now if that sounds too good to be true, that means you need to do a little research, to make sure you're not missing an important detail. If you read Apple's description about their memory (http://store.apple.com/us/learnmore/MA970LL/A?group=mac_pro_memory), they mention "a more robust thermal specification for the Mac Pro FB-DIMM heat sinks that provide more efficient cooling than many other FB-DIMMs." Their FB-DIMMs have intimidating looking heat sinks on them; much larger than the ones on the Mushkins. The question is, do these over sized heat sinks matter, or are they just for show?

Now you can do a little online investigating. Some people will say they've done testing and smaller heat sinks are fine (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-10-25/#6071), but were their testing methods flawed? Are they friends with people who sell FB-DIMMs with small heat sinks? You also have other companies who say Apple is right, you need large heat sinks. Ours are pricey, but not as pricey as Apple's. Buy from us (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2706)!

The main lesson from all of this is when you strike it out on your own, you have to bear some amount of risk and uncertainty. You need to ask yourself if the risks are worth the reward.


With absolutely no experience with FB-DIMMs for Mac Pro's, this is my gut feeling:

For a video editing enthusiast, I think the smaller heat sinks are fine. You're not likely to drive your computer hard 24/7 for weeks on end. Maybe your computer will run hotter with a noisier fan, but maybe it won't annoy you much. And if your RAM does fail, you might lose a few hours of work, but nothing you couldn't recover from. The price of failure is small.

If you're a large production studio, you might have hundreds of Mac Pro's in a server farm. They can be churning stuff out 24/7, producing huge volumes of data. Heat failure won't cause a small bicycle accident, it'll create a train wreck, which can cost tens of thousands of dollars in lost work and schedule slip. The price of failure is high.

Of course it's doubtful you'd need 32 GB of RAM, so you could go with Composite 2992's suggestion of lower density modules with large heat sinks from Other World Computing (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/Mac-Pro-Memory). Endless choices to drive yourself crazy with!

Hmm. Even their 32 GB solution is cheaper than the Muskin one I suggested, and they seem to have the larger heat sinks. Thanks for pointing the website out, Composite!


Going with non-Apple hard drives is pretty safe. Same for video cards (though you might want to make sure the card can physically fit inside the case, and that it doesn't require extra power cables which the Mac Pro might not have). With RAID cards in general, you have to watch out for the cheap ones. These cards are bare bones and have low performance. Higher performing RAID cards have a dedicated CPU on the card to manage the RAID. Try to find performance benchmarks.

Another thing to keep in mind is whether a piece of non-Apple hardware has sufficient software support for Mac OS X. Sometimes the lack of support might cause a few annoyances. Sometimes it might make your hardware unusable.


Apple upgrades can be a good deal. You need to do a little math to see if it's worthwhile to go elsewhere.


:D

Myopicjoe

really glad to have knowledgeable folks like you around when it comes to computers! You just saved me big bucks on the mac deal. I am the type of person to not study or really look into things and just buy in need..

After reading your advice, that Mac would be way more affordable for my budget.

I also would like to mention, saw your footage on Makana and the ribbon dancer. The resolution was great and way better than what I get with my own videos on You tube. Please give me tips on what you did to get so clear of a picture on you tube!

Composite 2992
I came out with almost the same end quote after reading Myopicjoes post! The 10 gbs are more than enough and I imagine would work wonders.
I see a lot of people who have these macs not using the mac displays and going for the Dell based and other screens. Is this because of cost?

Aloha
Layne

[MyopicJoe]

You just saved me big bucks on the mac deal.

Composite 2992 has more Mac and video making experience than I. His RAM suggestion from Other World Computing combines the best of both worlds. Price and quality.

I would trust Composite's practical advice over my posts, which are more food for thought kind of writing.


Please give me tips on what you did to get so clear of a picture on you tube!Glad you liked the video :) I have no clue. I just followed iMovie's export suggestion for YouTube.

I Googled "upload high quality youtube" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=upload+high+quality+youtube&btnG=Search) and it came up with this guy's web page (http://www.squidoo.com/youtuberight):

YouTube (newest) recommended settings are:


MPEG4 (DivX, Xvid, [H.264]) format
640x480 resolution
64k Mono or 128k Stereo MP3 audio
30 frames per second



This guy's YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLtTNE61iik) has a pretty good explanation too.

I read somewhere else that if your video is interlaced, you should deinterlace it, before exporting and uploading.

Since YouTube uses Flash, apparently resolutions which are a multiple of 16 are best (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/apps/flv_bitrate_calculator/video_sizes.html). (like 640x480 or 320x240)

My particular video was shot in 30 fps, progressive, 128k Stereo (16-bit), DV format. iMovie exported it as 640x480, H.264 encoding, in a MPEG4 file format. That's what I uploaded.


I see a lot of people who have these macs not using the mac displays and going for the Dell based and other screens.No clue. Composite might have a better idea. I recommended this LCD FAQ (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y) a few posts up. You might want to scroll down to the "V. Recommendations" section for some interesting reading.

[Hilo Artist]

Composite 2992 has more Mac and video making experience than I. His RAM suggestion from Other World Computing combines the best of both worlds. Price and quality.

I would trust Composite's practical advice over my posts, which are more food for thought kind of writing.


Glad you liked the video :) I have no clue. I just followed iMovie's export suggestion for YouTube.

I Googled "upload high quality youtube" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=upload+high+quality+youtube&btnG=Search) and it came up with this guy's web page (http://www.squidoo.com/youtuberight):



This guy's YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLtTNE61iik) has a pretty good explanation too.

I read somewhere else that if your video is interlaced, you should deinterlace it, before exporting and uploading.

Since YouTube uses Flash, apparently resolutions which are a multiple of 16 are best (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/apps/flv_bitrate_calculator/video_sizes.html). (like 640x480 or 320x240)

My particular video was shot in 30 fps, progressive, 128k Stereo (16-bit), DV format. iMovie exported it as 640x480, H.264 encoding, in a MPEG4 file format. That's what I uploaded.


No clue. Composite might have a better idea. I recommended this LCD FAQ (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y) a few posts up. You might want to scroll down to the "V. Recommendations" section for some interesting reading.

Myopicjoe

Thanks for the informative link on that guys virtualdub use. I will try that out! His video looks really clean and non pixeled!
I am doing pretty much the same thing with my rendering, I am using the divx codec and my end product for exporting is an avi file. I need to convert with virtual dub..
Wish me luck!
Layne

[Hilo Artist]

Hey Myopicjoe!
Just wanted to thank you for that guys You Tube Link! I followed his instructions and downloaded the Virtual Dub Mod along withthe X 264 codec and got pretty good results!

Here is a commercial I shot and edited for my upcoming documentary debut...Not to shabby for You Tube!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COpFPQawXTk
Big Mahalo!!!
Layne the Hilo Artist

[Composite 2992]

When it comes to computers I feel that heat is the enemy -- aside from dust and coffee spills.

So when I went shopping for RAM I looked at the options from OWC (one of my trusted dealers) and decided to get something that had a lot of surface area. It turned out the heat sinks had a similar profile to the original Apple RAM.

RAM and the CPU's will generate a lot of heat when dealing with video rendering. So you want to make sure you give your equipment the best chance of shedding the heat.

As for video format, if you can shoot progressive, that eliminates the problems that interlaced video will bring if you ever have to do compositing work. Here's an example of progressive video compositing I helped with recently:

http://www.waikikinei.com/index.html

If anyone is wondering, it's how my moniker came to be. I do compositing in digital video. Except I messed up on the number. It should be 29.97. Not 29.92! Keyboard slip made permanent.

[Hilo Artist]

When it comes to computers I feel that heat is the enemy -- aside from dust and coffee spills.

So when I went shopping for RAM I looked at the options from OWC (one of my trusted dealers) and decided to get something that had a lot of surface area. It turned out the heat sinks had a similar profile to the original Apple RAM.

RAM and the CPU's will generate a lot of heat when dealing with video rendering. So you want to make sure you give your equipment the best chance of shedding the heat.

As for video format, if you can shoot progressive, that eliminates the problems that interlaced video will bring if you ever have to do compositing work. Here's an example of progressive video compositing I helped with recently:

http://www.waikikinei.com/index.html

If anyone is wondering, it's how my moniker came to be. I do compositing in digital video. Except I messed up on the number. It should be 29.97. Not 29.92! Keyboard slip made permanent.


WOW! Saw the video on Waikiki Nei very impressive!

[MyopicJoe]

Here is a commercial I shot and edited for my upcoming documentary debut...Not to shabby for You Tube!

Nice commercial, Layne. Brightness and colors look consistent from shot to shot (not having much experience, is that easy to do or does it take a bit of work?) Your wife does a good job narrating. She has a soothing voice.

Those vertical roof slats, above your wife, make for an ad hoc resolution graph. It makes it easy to see the different between YouTube's standard and high quality modes.

Virtual Dub came in handy when I needed to rotate video that came out of my digital camera, before I got my hands on video editing software. I'm curious. Do you think your video editing software can export / render directly to H.264, thereby skipping the Virtual Dub step? I got the impression that you took your DV source, rendered to DivX/AVI, and then converted again with Virtual Dub.


When it comes to computers I feel that heat is the enemy

I guess computers are similar to cars. Excess heat won't kill them right away, but it'll shorten the life of their components.


Here's an example of progressive video compositing I helped with recently:

http://www.waikikinei.com/index.html


Nice videos, Composite. Is the key to that work matching brightness and colors? In the nightclub video, with all the water droplets, did they leave bright lights on constantly or did they strobe them? Hmm seems difficult to strobe lights with a video camera's shutter. Maybe you don't have to?


It should be 29.97. Not 29.92! Keyboard slip made permanent.

LOL

Well 2992 has a kind of symmetry to it. Sometimes accidents can be a good thing.

[tutusue]

[...]Here's an example of progressive video compositing I helped with recently:

http://www.waikikinei.com/index.html
[...]
I worked on that spot, too! ;) Gotta admit, tho', the subject of progressive video compositing flies right over my head!

[Hilo Artist]

Nice commercial, Layne. Brightness and colors look consistent from shot to shot (not having much experience, is that easy to do or does it take a bit of work?) Your wife does a good job narrating. She has a soothing voice.

Those vertical roof slats, above your wife, make for an ad hoc resolution graph. It makes it easy to see the different between YouTube's standard and high quality modes.

Virtual Dub came in handy when I needed to rotate video that came out of my digital camera, before I got my hands on video editing software. I'm curious. Do you think your video editing software can export / render directly to H.264, thereby skipping the Virtual Dub step? I got the impression that you took your DV source, rendered to DivX/AVI, and then converted again with Virtual Dub.




I guess computers are similar to cars. Excess heat won't kill them right away, but it'll shorten the life of their components.




Nice videos, Composite. Is the key to that work matching brightness and colors? In the nightclub video, with all the water droplets, did they leave bright lights on constantly or did they strobe them? Hmm seems difficult to strobe lights with a video camera's shutter. Maybe you don't have to?




LOL

Well 2992 has a kind of symmetry to it. Sometimes accidents can be a good thing.

Myopicjoe

Thank you for the nice comment on my video, My wife thanks you as well! I know I need a lot of work in setting up shots and also using the correct speeds and aperature settings. I am learning by experience and really love this medium! I guess you can say I am still in the public access mode of style and imagery.

When I last checked I can render to DIVX, AVI, Mpeg 1 thru 4, Real Media,Sony PSP, and Windows Media. I can also make ISO and Video TS files. But no H.264...

You are correct that I took my rendered avi footage and then runned it through the Vitualdub mod program. It is tricky to do and it doesnt always create clear images on You Tube. I tried with a pixeled music video I took of my daughter and her friends and it looked the same as my original pixeled upload...

Today, one of my filming assignments is to shoot a restaurant in Hilo who will be making a type of Kobe Steak that retails for $1200 per serving! I can't even imagine a piece of meat being that expensive? I will let you know if they let me take a bite!

Have a great day
Layne

[Composite 2992]

Nice videos, Composite. Is the key to that work matching brightness and colors? In the nightclub video, with all the water droplets, did they leave bright lights on constantly or did they strobe them? Hmm seems difficult to strobe lights with a video camera's shutter. Maybe you don't have to?

My work on that spot was just the shot of the woman floating on the water atop the stack of suitcases. Bluewater Multimedia, Ben Leong, supervised the technical aspects of the shot and consulted with me regarding green screen setup and lighting. I also suggested they reflect light off a pan of water onto the model's face. That little detail is a 1930s Hollywood-style filmmaking trick, but it adds to the illusion.

The important part of getting green screen right is using material that will light up as consistently and evenly as possible. Doesn't have to be perfect, but the fewer imperfections the better. Contrary to what some might think, the camera has to be matched to the light that's hitting the green screen. Getting the exposure of the green screen and capturing the green color accurately is the most important part of achieving a good key. The light that's illuminating the talent can be almost anything to suit the shot.

Edit: Another important point: turn off any sharpening and detailing. The hard outlines created by in-camera sharpening wreaks havoc with the edges of an otherwise good key.

And the other half of the equation is good software and knowing how to use it. The plug-in I use, Primatte from Red Giant Software, has about 30 or 40 parameters that can be adjusted to help ensure a perfect key. The software will sort out what's part of the green key and what isn't, and you can tell it specifically what to include and what to exclude. Other software, such as Keylight, doesn't provide that kind of exclusion information so it's harder to get a subtle key with Keylight.

What we didn't have was good 3D water simulation software. Just yesterday I got a plug-in that is supposed to do that. For the Waikiki Nei spot I had to simulate a waterline on the suitcase using standard rotoscope techniques and adjusting transparency of the overlapping layer. It took hours to get this all put together just right. But the results paid off.

[Composite 2992]

I'm fiddling with an XL1s... SD, but good fun indeed.

I worked with an XL1s for quite some time.

Check to make sure the color is consistent from edge to edge. Older ones can drift off-color, tending to go cyan sometimes. That color drift can also become apparent when setting to higher levels of gain.

And if you're using the shoulder mount with the XLR attachments, check to see that the plastic tab isn't cracked. If you ever break one let me know -- I fixed a couple of those things since they're easily broken if you mount wireless mic receivers on them.

If you have the 16x manual lens and need a wide angle adapter, I still have mine. It's also adaptable to the original IS version of the lens but it would have to be sent to Century to get the bayonet mount changed.

[Hilo Artist]

My work on that spot was just the shot of the woman floating on the water atop the stack of suitcases. Bluewater Multimedia, Ben Leong, supervised the technical aspects of the shot and consulted with me regarding green screen setup and lighting. I also suggested they reflect light off a pan of water onto the model's face. That little detail is a 1930s Hollywood-style filmmaking trick, but it adds to the illusion.

The important part of getting green screen right is using material that will light up as consistently and evenly as possible. Doesn't have to be perfect, but the fewer imperfections the better. Contrary to what some might think, the camera has to be matched to the light that's hitting the green screen. Getting the exposure of the green screen and capturing the green color accurately is the most important part of achieving a good key. The light that's illuminating the talent can be almost anything to suit the shot.

Edit: Another important point: turn off any sharpening and detailing. The hard outlines created by in-camera sharpening wreaks havoc with the edges of an otherwise good key.

And the other half of the equation is good software and knowing how to use it. The plug-in I use, Primatte from Red Giant Software, has about 30 or 40 parameters that can be adjusted to help ensure a perfect key. The software will sort out what's part of the green key and what isn't, and you can tell it specifically what to include and what to exclude. Other software, such as Keylight, doesn't provide that kind of exclusion information so it's harder to get a subtle key with Keylight.

What we didn't have was good 3D water simulation software. Just yesterday I got a plug-in that is supposed to do that. For the Waikiki Nei spot I had to simulate a waterline on the suitcase using standard rotoscope techniques and adjusting transparency of the overlapping layer. It took hours to get this all put together just right. But the results paid off.


Hey Composite!
I know Ben Leong!!! We both worked on the Kikaida live shows! Please send him my regards! Hey ???Your knowledge and passion for this type of work is very similar to my friend who does a locally produced Fishing show... You both have similar expertise in composing , Green screen and color correcting. You must also shoot with one of those Sony EX Cams I presume?

I am inspired by your posts!

[MyopicJoe]

I worked on that spot, too! ;)

Heh, cool. What a small world. From commercials to Sundance movies, TutuSue has her hand in everything. Have you decided who will be the next President of the United States? IlluminatiSue!

( just some friendly teasing, of course :) )


My work on that spot was just the shot of the woman floating on the water atop the stack of suitcases.

Ah, cool. I noticed the woman and suitcases slightly bobbing in the water. Nice touch. I assume you couldn't overdo it because it would have looked weird.


I also suggested they reflect light off a pan of water onto the model's face. That little detail is a 1930s Hollywood-style filmmaking trick, but it adds to the illusion.Your bag is full of lo and hi tech tricks :)


Contrary to what some might think, the camera has to be matched to the light that's hitting the green screen.Ahhh.



Edit: Another important point: turn off any sharpening and detailing. The hard outlines created by in-camera sharpening wreaks havoc with the edges of an otherwise good key.I remember reading somewhere, about a guy who wasn't getting good results with a green screen because he used compressed video, which introduced artifacts in the green field. Come to think of it, it was probably in that Yahoo! group TutuSue pointed out.


Now that you've described what you do, I can see why they have a person dedicated to just compositing. All the hours spent tweaking those little details, which affect the final product. Thanks for sharing.