Joseph Biden - The best pick?

[Adri]

So what do you all think of Biden as Obama's VP pick?

[matapule]

I think Biden brings needed strength to the ticket in the area of foreign relations and policy. Should Obama/Biden be elected, Obama will gain additional experience in foreign relations over the next 4 years.

Here is my theory. Since Biden will be 69 in 2012, he will drop off the ticket in 2012 and accept a senior diplomatic position such as Secretary of State or UN Ambassador. In 2012 Biden will be replaced by a much younger (than Biden) running mate for Obama, one that would become the Democrat standard bearer in the 2016 election. I have a hunch that the VP candidate in 2012 is going to be a woman. That woman will not be Hillary.

Anyway, that's my opinion. I'm probably wrong, I usually am.

[Vanguard]

Wow. I didn't expect him to choose Biden. I felt he would choose a state governor like Sebelius or Richardson, or even someone with military/foreign policy experience such as Clark. Stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIT3jUrNTX0) may pose a problem, however. And this quick jab (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8).

[Frankie's Market]

One problem with Bill Richardson, and I think this is why he didn't make the list of finalists and no one was talking about him in the last month: While the man has executive experience as the governor of New Mexico and some international experience as the former UN ambassador, Richardson doesn't seem comfortable in being a hatchet man, which is what Obama needs from his running mate in what is shaping up to be a rough campaign. This is especially true since Obama himself doesn't relish going on the attack. Biden is much more suited to this role.

And besides, Biden appeals to the demographics that Obama is most weak in, like working class whites. Obama already has the support of the majority of Hispanics.

Kathleen Sebelius simply wouldn't have brought much to the ticket. She doesn't have much national recognition. She doesn't shore up Obama's perceived weaknesses when it comes to foreign policy and national security issues. She wouldn't have delivered her home state of Kansas to the Democratic side on the electoral map. And while her selection might have been seen as reaching out to women voters, there was also talk that many of Hillary's most loyal supporters would have seen a "Sebelius for VP" campaign as a slap at Clinton in picking another woman instead of her.

[Adri]

And while her selection might have been seen as reaching out to women voters, there was also talk that many of Hillary's most loyal supporters would have seen a "Sebelius for VP" campaign as a slap at Clinton in picking another woman instead of her.

Apparently a fair number of Clinton supporters are seeing any pick other than Clinton as a slap in the face, regardless.

Watching Biden on CNN now. He does seem to be in good form today.

[matapule]

Obama already has the support of the majority of Hispanics.

I hadn't heard that. I've read that McCain has the lead among Hispanics, but perhaps they don't vote. McCain speaks some Spanish and Hispanics perceive Obama as being "black." I think that Richardson, AZ Governor Napolitano, LA Mayor Villaregosa, and TX Representative Chet Edwards could really help Obama on the campaign trail with solidifying the Hispanic vote.

[Frankie's Market]

I hadn't heard that. I've read that McCain has the lead among Hispanics,

According to which poll? I can't find a single one that agrees with this.

but perhaps they don't vote.

Ummm, we are talking about Hispanic-Americans voters. Obviously, Hispanics/Latinos who are not eligible to vote (or are illegals in this country) don't figure into this discussion.

McCain speaks some Spanish and Hispanics perceive Obama as being "black."

Well, that's an interesting observation.

McCain being able to "speak some Spanish" does not even begin to heal the rift that has occurred between the Hispanic community and the Republican Party due to the immigration refrom issue. As the Politico's David Paul Kuhn explains, McCain's campaign and his party has a serious problem with this demographic group.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080727/pl_politico/12089

Whether it's fair or not, many Latino voters paint McCain and the GOP party with the same broad brush. And the poll numbers seem to attest to it.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/24/pew.latino.poll/

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new poll released Thursday shows overwhelming support from Latinos for Sen. Barack Obama over Sen. John McCain.

Obama's approval rating with registered Latino voters, the nationwide Pew Hispanic Center poll found, is at 66 percent versus 23 percent favoring McCain.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108532/Hispanic-Voters-Solidly-Behind-Obama.aspx

PRINCETON, NJ -- Hispanic registered voters' support for Barack Obama for president remained consistent and strong in June, with Obama leading John McCain by 59% to 29% among this group.

I think that Richardson, AZ Governor Napolitano, LA Mayor Villaregosa, and TX Representative Chet Edwards could really help Obama on the campaign trail with solidifying the Hispanic vote.

Based on the poll numbers, there was absolutely no need for Obama to use his veep pick to court Hispanics. Barring some major gaffe, Obama will have the support of Hispanic-Americans in his back pocket come November.

[Seeking Penance]

Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. called Senator Barack Obama a clear-eyed pragmatist who will get the job done. (N.Y.Times 08/23/08)

What job and what change?

*spits*

[Frankie's Market]

Apparently a fair number of Clinton supporters are seeing any pick other than Clinton as a slap in the face, regardless.

Exactly! Which is why Obama was smart not to pick a candidate like Sebelius with the hope of picking up all of Hillary's support,.... but didn't have much else to offer.

I'm with you. For some of Clinton's most diehard supporters, it was "Hillary or Bust." Since there was no way to make them happy short of picking her, there's nothing his campaign can do about it. Just as Obama can't do anything about bigoted voters who will never vote for a Black candidate, come hell or high water. Obama will simply have to forget about those groups and just go on.

[timkona]

In as much as Edwards (pre-affair) was a better pick than Kerry last go round, Dems are suffering the same fate again. Biden would have been an excellent (imho) choice to lead the ticket.

Obama made the second best decision he could have made. I like Bill Richardson alot. Hillary supporters just do not see the polar aspect of her appeal.

I will spend another election cycle wondering how Dems think.

Imagine a Biden/Richardson ticket. Now that would be a winner, even to this moderately conservative RepubliCRAT.

[matapule]

Frankie, I don't disagree with anything you have said, as far as it goes. But I think it is unwise to presume that Obama has the Hispanic vote in his pocket. Obama had trouble with the Hispanic vote in the primaries in contrast to Clinton. Read this interesting OP ED (http://www.nelsonguirado.com/index.php/asymmetric/2008/02/04/will_hispanics_vote_for_black_people) piece. I think the Republican campaign will really try to exploit this potential weakness. Yes, the polls look good right now, but the fight is still ahead.

Obama is opposed to NAFTA and that is an important issue to Hispanics, many of who still have close ties to Mexico and other Latin American countries. My point about Hispanic voting, is that they have traditionally not voted in great numbers. However, that trend appears to be reversing in the primaries.

The Latin/Cuban block in Florida has traditionally been very conservative regardless of their party affiliation. Obama is evidently supporting some reconcilliation with Cuba. This is not going over well with Cuban Americans.

It is an interesting and growing demographic. It is up to Obama to win or lose. It is not a done deal in my opinion.

[Menehune Man]

1)What job and what change?

2)*spits*

1) We will see won't we?

2) That's unsanitary... and uncool.

[Ron Whitfield]

Biden is a loose cannon and it's only a matter of time before he starts blabbing stupidities and damaging the ship.
Rove and his vultures are licking their beaks.

If he could stay on script, he'd be fine, but I still am not happy with the perspective of a President Biden.

[Adri]

Biden is a loose cannon and it's only a matter of time before he starts blabbing stupidities and damaging the ship.
Rove and his vultures are licking their beaks.

If he could stay on script, he'd be fine, but I still am not happy with the perspective of a President Biden.

I'm a little concerned about that too. Of course, all of us would be dinged with saying things that sound horrible if we were under the same level of scrutiny that these candidates are. But still. Especially since Biden has had trouble with saying things that appeared racist.

[Frankie's Market]

Frankie, I don't disagree with anything you have said, as far as it goes. But I think it is unwise to presume that Obama has the Hispanic vote in his pocket. Obama had trouble with the Hispanic vote in the primaries in contrast to Clinton.

Well, Hillary Clinton is no longer running for President now, is she? ;)

And I think it is unwise to presume that the Hispanic preference for Clinton over Obama during the Democratic Primary cycle is due to an innate dislike of Obama. If you do some research on Hillary's life, you'll find that she very much earned that support. In 1972, she spent several weeks in Texas registering Latino voters. As a result, many Latino politicians never forget that and in return, came out as early supporters for her Presidential campaign more than 35 years later.

The Latin/Cuban block in Florida has traditionally been very conservative regardless of their party affiliation. Obama is evidently supporting some reconcilliation with Cuba. This is not going over well with Cuban Americans.

I thought we were talking about the overall Latino demographic appeal of folks like Bill Richardson and Janet Napolitano?

Now if you're going to get into a discussion about the hard-line stance of the Cuban exiles living in Florida, I don't think Obama putting Richardson (or any of the other people you mentioned) on the ticket would have swayed their vote to the Democratic side.

But while we're on the topic of Cuban-Americans, it should be noted that even in that community, many of the Cuban exiles are getting up way up there in age and are dying. The generations that have succeeded them have become more moderate and pragmatic in their views towards the Castro regime and can no longer be taken for granted by the Florida GOP.

[matapule]

Well, Hillary Clinton is no longer running for President now, is she?

Exactly! So the question becomes, will those Hispanics who voted for Clinton in the primaries vote for Obama or McCain in the general election as a result of the race issue? This is what the OP ED piece so cogently questions. I would urge that the Obama campaign not become too complacent on this issue. Obama needs Florida in the worst way. Colorado with its high percentage of Hispanics is a necessity too.

I wish him well.

[matapule]

For some of Clinton's most diehard supporters, it was "Hillary or Bust." Since there was no way to make them happy short of picking her, there's nothing his campaign can do about it.

I think Obama is going to make Hillary a cornerstone of his campaign. Sometime PRIOR to the election I think he's going to announce that Hillary is going to be a key component of his administration, perhaps an appointment to the Supreme Court or cabinet level position, maybe Secretary of State. I would like to see her appointed to the Supreme Court.

[lavagal]

I think Obama is going to make Hillary a cornerstone of his campaign. Sometime PRIOR to the election I think he's going to announce that Hillary is going to be a key component of his administration, perhaps an appointment to the Supreme Court or cabinet level position, maybe Secretary of State. I would like to see her appointed to the Supreme Court.

A lot of people would. Kind of a powerful, yet out-of-the-way position with its own prestige. It also assures she wouldn't ever run for president again. Not sure how she feels about the whole prospect. I wonder.

[lavagal]

I like Biden. He's seniority eclipses McCain's, he's got nothing to lose. He can serve as an effective attack dog through the campaign. His foreign policy expertise gives the ticket good weight. For once we might have a VP who doesn't exactly disappear; and I expect his ethics will excede Cheney's.

[Kalihiboy]

I've followed Biden's career for many years, but did not know until today that shortly after he won his first Senate seat in 1972 he lost both his wife and daughter in a car accident.

Aj

[Walkoff Balk]

He's the right choice because I can't remember if he has been in a sex scandal.

[TuNnL]

I've followed Biden's career for many yearsIndeed, so have I. Which is why I wasn't exactly impressed when Biden made his vice presidential introduction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSNuYqYMeG4) in Springfield, Illinois. It’s obvious it was one of his more hastily-put-together oratories that would have benefited from a second or third read. Some of my friends here on HT know I have had one of Biden’s greatest speeches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1op8vwF5UA) on my MySpace page since before Obama had won a single presidential primary.

This one paled in comparison.

Among the highlights:
“Ladies and gentlemen...”
“literally”
and
“it’s incredible!” :p

[Frankie's Market]

I've followed Biden's career for many years, but did not know until today that shortly after he won his first Senate seat in 1972 he lost both his wife and daughter in a car accident.

I knew about Senator Biden's practice of making the 80 minute ride to and from DC from his home in Wilmington, Delaware on Amtrak. I have to admit that all along, I thought it was his way of projecting an "everyman" image that lower and middle class folks could relate to. I also thought that his commuting to and from his Wilmington home was motivated by PR purposes: IOW, a show to his constituents that he was closer in touch with what was happening in his home state, in contrast to many of his colleagues in the House and Senate who spent a lot of time living in Virginia or the suburbs of DC. But it was only in the last couple of days that I learned that this practice of going home every night started because he wanted to take care of his 2 sons who survived that tragic car accident. Makes me respect the man even more.

[scrivener]

People calling for Biden to be the hatchet-man in this campaign are going to have to reconcile something, and I'm wondering if anyone here can predict how it will be done.

Biden thought McCain was the best choice (http://web.archive.org/web/20040803085719/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4961694/) in 2004 to be John Kerry's running mate. Yes, that's one heartbeat away from the Presidency. How is Biden going to bring the noise on McCain only four years later and not lose credibility?

[Kalihiboy]

That speech by Biden is superb and that is the kind of fiery oratory that is needed, passion and what comes from the heart.

McCain might have been in the White House now as VP if he had shown his bi-partisinship and taken Kerry's supposed offer as his pick for VP. Biden has tremendous respect for McCain as a fellow colleague in the senate. I always thought it was wrong for the GOP to smear John Kerry with the swift boat charges and here we have another man who served in Vietnam, as a war hero, the Democrats would be foolish to belittle any of his accomplishments in serving his country. So you have to treat McCain with respect and attack his record as a Senator.

Aj

[Kalihiboy]

To learn more about Joe Biden. Very well done piece here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRJgaLQxCSs&feature=related

[Frankie's Market]

Biden thought McCain was the best choice (http://web.archive.org/web/20040803085719/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4961694/) in 2004 to be John Kerry's running mate. Yes, that's one heartbeat away from the Presidency. How is Biden going to bring the noise on McCain only four years later and not lose credibility?

Easy. Point out that the John McCain of 2004 is not the same as the John McCain of today.

McCain flipped-flopped on Bush's tax cuts for the rich. He abandoned support for the immigration reform bill that he himself sponsored.

But perhaps most disappointing, he even flipped-flopped on torture, voting against Sen. Dianne Feinstein's bill that would have put an end to the CIA using "enhanced" interrogation methods not available to military interrogators. This, from a man who once strongly spoke out against inhumane forms of torture..... and whose opinion on the matter was highly respected, coming as it did from the experience of a former POW who spent some 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton.

No Scriv. Joe Biden won't have any problems telling voters that the John McCain he once thought worthy of being on the Democratic ticket in 2004 is not the same. And he can say it with a straight face.

[scrivener]

Then Biden will be admitting that he recommended for the vice-presidency the kind of man who makes such flip-flops. The way I see it, Biden has to admit he made a bad recommendation four years ago. If he's such a poor judge of a candidate's worthiness, how are we supposed to believe what he says now?

[LikaNui]

I submit that no candidate will be 100% perfect.

The last person who was (allegedly) 100% perfect died on a cross about 2,000 years ago.
Everyone since then has been nitpickable. :p

Carry on.

[scrivener]

Nobody's talking about being perfect. I'm talking about first recommending someone for the vice-presidency, and then only four years later possibly trying to convince America that the same person is a bad choice for the presidency. If he made a mistake four years ago, especially about a man who's been his colleague for decades, how are we supposed to give him any credibility now when he attempts to discredit the same man?

[LikaNui]

I didn't post that for you specifically, Scriv... just wanted to inject a light note into the thread, is all. :o

[Frankie's Market]

Then Biden will be admitting that he recommended for the vice-presidency the kind of man who makes such flip-flops. The way I see it, Biden has to admit he made a bad recommendation four years ago. If he's such a poor judge of a candidate's worthiness, how are we supposed to believe what he says now?

Man, if you won't vote for somebody who made a mistake in judging somebody's character, then you shouldn't vote for anyone,.... including John McCain.

Have we already forgot Sen. McCain actively seeking out the endorsement of Pastor John Hagee?

McCain: "All I can tell you is that I am very proud to have Pastor John Hagee's support.''

Then, after it is revealed that Hagee made deeply offensive comments towards Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and gays, he had this to say.

McCain: “I did not know of them before Rev. Hagee’s endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well.”

If that isn't an example of McCain misjudging the character of a man whose endorsement he once sought, then what is?

[TuNnL]

Nobody's talking about being perfect. I'm talking about first recommending someone for the vice-presidency, and then only four years later possibly trying to convince America that the same person is a bad choice for the presidency. If he made a mistake four years ago, especially about a man who's been his colleague for decades, how are we supposed to give him any credibility now when he attempts to discredit the same man?All politicians are guilty of this scriv, including Hillary Clinton, your choice for VP. The difference is, Hillary has refused to admit many of her mistakes, which include supporting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BrPZYbCdJ4) NAFTA, obstruction of justice in the Vince Foster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yZcFNf_b60) murder case, and the vigorous pursuit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPxtv6kcn7s) of illegal campaign contributions. These charges don’t get as much press because the MSM is obsessed with sex and war, and therefore focus on Monica Lewinsky and Hillary’s vote on the Iraq War. But they are legitimate gripes. These are much more tangible mistakes with real repurcussions. Do you really think people took Biden seriously when he recommended McCain for VP? It was more tongue-in-cheek, then anything. :rolleyes:

[scrivener]

Yeah. I know. And if Hillary Clinton were trying to convince us to vote on these issues, taking a position that was directly opposite an earlier position, I'd just shut up. Do you not see that this is a little different? This is a man who, four years earlier, said McCain was a good man for the job. Now he is going to tell us that he is NOT a good man for the job.

Heck, people change their minds. We all change our minds. But being for one thing four years ago and then trying to convince us of the very opposite position now just reeks of the kind of politics Obama was supposedly going to lead our country away from.

Yes, I'm still pissed that Clinton didn't get her party's nomination and that Obama didn't choose her as a running mate, and perhaps that's coloring my opinion of Biden as a choice. But I'm not a Democrat or a Republican, and I find it annoying that the candidate (and the supporters) who kept talking about a new kind of politics or of bringing the country together has resorted to the oldest kind of politics in the book and can't even bring its own party together.

[Random]

Yeah. I know. And if Hillary Clinton were trying to convince us to vote on these issues, taking a position that was directly opposite an earlier position, I'd just shut up. Do you not see that this is a little different? This is a man who, four years earlier, said McCain was a good man for the job. Now he is going to tell us that he is NOT a good man for the job.
Perhaps Obama should admit he said that McCain is a good man for the job but as a presidential candidate he's going to have to convince voters why he's the better man for the job.

[scrivener]

Perhaps Obama should admit he said that McCain is a good man for the job but as a presidential candidate he's going to have to convince voters why he's the better man for the job.
I could live with that.

[Kalihiboy]

Perhaps Obama should admit he said that McCain is a good man for the job but as a presidential candidate he's going to have to convince voters why he's the better man for the job.

Exactly. Well said.

Aj

[matapule]

Perhaps Obama should admit he said that McCain is a good man for the job but as a presidential candidate he's going to have to convince voters why he's the better man for the job.

Random, you are expressing way too much clarity of thought. You get it, but I fear the Presidential candidates don't get it.

[Random]

Random, you are expressing way too much clarity of thought. You get it, but I fear the Presidential candidates don't get it.
They never do. They only listen to the idiots with college degrees ... I mean the ones on their campaign staff. :p

Personally, I'm pissed at one of McCain's staff who blogged an insensitive remark about people who plays Dungeons & Dragons.

[Leo Lakio]

Perhaps Obama should admit he said that McCain is a good man for the job but as a presidential candidate he's going to have to convince voters why he's the better man for the job.
Point out that the John McCain of 2004 is not the same as the John McCain of today.
Random's answer is smart - but let's not dismiss what FM is saying.

John McCain ceased to be the respect-earning "maverick" he once was, once he realized that he had to stop voting his conscience and start toeing the party line, if he ever wanted a chance at getting the nomination. He sold out. He became a party man and lost the independence and credibility he had four years ago.

I have less respect for the 2008 model than I had for the 2004 model. Does my change in opinion, as a response to his actions, make me the flip-flopper in this scenario? Sen. Biden can easily take an opposing position from the one he held four years ago - as a response to the dramatic changes in Sen. McCain's voting record.

[Random]

John McCain ceased to be the respect-earning "maverick" he once was, once he realized that he had to stop voting his conscience and start toeing the party line, if he ever wanted a chance at getting the nomination. He sold out. He became a party man and lost the independence and credibility he had four years ago.
Hmm.

Is Obama a party man himself? Of course he has to be because he's going to need those democrat support votes, especially the "Clintonites."

Or is he someone so fiercely independent of the party he's registered to, that even democrat loyalists -- I was going to say "hardlined" -- would vote for?

[Leo Lakio]

Is Obama a party man himself?What does that have to do with Scrivener asking how Sen. Biden will be able to change his tone regarding Sen. McCain? :confused:

[Random]

What does that have to do with Scrivener asking how Sen. Biden will be able to change his tone regarding Sen. McCain? :confused:
Nothing. Everything.

I just want to know your response.

[Ron Whitfield]

Let's not forget that a younger and stronger JMc succumbed to VC torture, so maybe he thinks it works.
And of course, this administration tells us they got important information from 'enhanced interrogations', even tho in the same breath they say they don't torture..., and won't tell us anything about what info they got or what/who was saved...

[Leo Lakio]

Nothing. Everything.
I just want to know your response.Oh, okay den.

Obama, a party man? Sure seems to be. Even more so, once Hillary was no longer in his path. At least she was openly centrist to begin with. He pretended to be farther left than her, but now that the nomination is his, he's moved much closer to the center, in order to gain center-right independent voters in the general election. Maybe that's a game, too - once he gets in office, he could move back to the left. Or even farther right. Who can tell? That's why I don't like entrusting the reins of power to anyone who wants them.

The Republican Brand has a big stain from the Bush years, so GOP candidates are working to distance themselves from that stink - but McCain has moved closer to it in the past four years, while still pretending not to. Did Obama ever claim to be a "maverick," independent from the Democratic Party? Not that I recall. I got the sense that he was pushing for a return to older Demo values - but I dunno now that he will follow through.

[matapule]

Let's not forget that a younger and stronger JMc succumbed to VC torture, so maybe he thinks it works.
And of course, this administration tells us they got important information from 'enhanced interrogations', even tho in the same breath they say they don't torture..., and won't tell us anything about what info they got or what/who was saved...

I am reading a spy novel called "The Spoilers" by Michael Gilbert. Here is what one of the characters says with regards to torture:

"If you wanted to break a man down, what did you do? First you made him uncomfortable. It was far more demoralizing for a man to be cold, or filty, or sleepless, or thirsty than actually to be hurt. Discomfort weakens. Torture builds up resistance."

I think that is a very interesting statement. I guess it depends on what the definition of torture is.

[Ron Whitfield]

From what we know of Gitmo interrogations, the FBI had great success initially in getting real info by 'friendly' methods, but that wasn't good enuf for this administration. They needed to bust them up, seemingly just to make themselves feel good or important, so they sent in the CIA goons when gleaning info on the non-existing WMDs became impossible. And they didn't get squat, except a healthy black eye forevermore on the face of this country.