Our Military is Like?

[salmoned]

Our military is like a baby that never grows up. No matter how much you feed it, or how proud it makes you feel, it never advances beyond waving it’s arms & legs, producing varying amounts of noise and copious amounts of waste.

[U'ilani]

The problem isn't the military, but the politicians who direct them.

[Leo Lakio]

Pssst...U`ilani? When you see salmoned's posts, think about the sculpture in Fremont - the one under the north end of the Aurora Bridge...;)

[cyleet99]

This will be a fun thread to read tomorrow. Salmoned, you go ahead and push those buttons.:D

[Adri]

*settles in with popcorn and a soda to watch*

[1stwahine]

Whack Whacks!!:mad:

[U'ilani]

Pssst...U`ilani? When you see salmoned's posts, think about the sculpture in Fremont - the one under the north end of the Aurora Bridge...;)Haha! Understood.

http://www.jetcityorange.com/Seattle/Fremont-Troll.jpg

[1stwahine]

Never mind. It's useless.

[matapule]

The problem isn't the military, but the politicians who direct them.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[Leo Lakio]

Haha! Understood.Awww---you let 'em in on the secret!;)

[matapule]

*settles in with popcorn and a soda to watch*

http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1947.gif

[salmoned]

"Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." George Washington

[TuNnL]

The problem isn't the military, but the politicians who direct them.Is it really the politicians, though...or the insiders (http://www.cfr.org/about/people/international_advisory_board.html) controlling the politicians? :cool:

[Random]

"Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." George Washington
Dude, don't make me ignore you.

[Adri]

http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1947.gif

Thanks matapule *g*

[Nords]

Our military is like a baby that never grows up. No matter how much you feed it, or how proud it makes you feel, it never advances beyond waving it’s arms & legs, producing varying amounts of noise and copious amounts of waste.
This will be a fun thread to read tomorrow. Salmoned, you go ahead and push those buttons.:D
*settles in with popcorn and a soda to watch*
http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1947.gif
Dude, don't make me ignore you.

I'm glad you're feeling frisky with your first-amendment rights. Sentiments from guys like you make guys like me feel all warm & fuzzy that our struggles have been worth the effort.

I'm also glad that this board has an "Ignore Poster" feature, too! You have a nice life now.

P.S.-- Leo, U'ilani, thanks for the picture. I'm gonna get some use out of that on other boards...

[timkona]

Our military is like an adult diaper to the bedwetters. They hate the idea of a diaper, but appreciate the fact that the bed don't stink, and that they can just keep right on soiling themselves without concern.

[Random]

Wow. I never thought to put TWO guys on my Ignore list in so short a time.

Any more volunteers?

[matapule]

Sentiments from guys like you make guys like me feel all warm & fuzzy that our struggles have been worth the effort.

Okay, I'll bite, what struggles would those be?

[sinjin]

There's a bunch of dead guys from assorted nations that indicate otherwise.

[Nords]

Eh, I already had TK on "Ignore", so no changes there.

Okay, I'll bite, what struggles would those be?
24 years, including 20 in the submarine force. Ballistic missile submarines at first and later attack submarines with the activities described in "Blind Man's Bluff" (http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/006097771X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221144127&sr=1-1). Retired since 2002.

Spouse did nearly 18 years of active duty and just retired from the Navy Reserve-- meteorologist, oceanographer, & various Reserve contingency planning/disaster recovery billets.

My nephew's carrying on the tradition. He started with nearly four years with a Ranger battalion-- Afghanistan in Oct 2001 & mid-2002, followed by Iraq in late 2002-early 2003. He followed that up with USMA '07 and has just finished Ranger School enroute his new Ranger unit. He's considering Special Forces.

When our kid graduates from high school she's considering the family business via NROTC.

When I was in Monterey in the 1980s the students from the Defense Language Institute used to come to the school to share our gym. Many of them would wear t-shirts that would say in huge letters on the front "We're learning Russian..." (or whatever their assigned language was). On the back it'd say "... so you don't have to."

[matapule]

24 years, including 20 in the submarine force. Ballistic missile submarines at first and later attack submarines

And how would you feel about defying an order from a commanding officer that you felt was unjust or illegal?

[MyopicJoe]

"We're learning Russian..." (or whatever their assigned language was). On the back it'd say "... so you don't have to."

Haha, cute :)

[Random]

And how would you feel about defying an order from a commanding officer that you felt was unjust or illegal?
Did you have an anti-military experience?

[matapule]

Did you have an anti-military experience?

Yep, the Viet Nam War and the Iraq War.

[Random]

Yep, the Viet Nam War and the Iraq War.
That's it? Because you make it sounds much more personal than the issues of today.

[matapule]

That's it? Because you make it sounds much more personal than the issues of today.

To paraphrase, those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it...over, and over, and over again. You are too young to remember.

[salmoned]

I see, Nords' expressed opinion is merely supporting his 'family business', just like a casino worker might support expansion of legalized gambling, a criminal might support lighter sentencing guidelines, or the Carpenter's Union might support the rail project. His position bears no reliable relationship with objective reality, due to his economic and egocentric bias. Well and good, I appreciate the historical insight which bred that perspective. Each generation of my family also served in the military, but none chose to make it a profession, the principal product (unmitigated waste) being too unsavory.

[cyleet99]

:eek: I can't stand it!!

Our military is like an adult diaper to the bedwetters. They hate the idea of a diaper, but appreciate the fact that the bed don't stink, and that they can just keep right on soiling themselves without concern.

TK, well said!
So, salmoned, a couple of questions....

1. Whatcha gonna do with those diapers? If you didn't use them, the mess would just be bigger and smellier and get all over you.

2. To what are you referring when you keep repeating "waste?"

[TuNnL]

You are too young to remember.There we go with the old age argument again. :rolleyes:

[Nords]

And how would you feel about defying an order from a commanding officer that you felt was unjust or illegal?
You mean would I get a pouty look on my face, or are you asking what I would do?

I already have Salmoned, TimKona, and TuNnl on my "Ignore Poster" list, and I'm not sure where these one-at-a-time questions are headed. But to answer this one, I'd do what I was trained to do (aside from the pouty face). I'd make sure that I understood what it was that I was being asked to do, and if it was unjust/illegal then I'd do my best to offer just/legal alternatives. And if none of those alternatives were judged acceptable then I'd explain why I was regrettably turning down the original order, which would usually result in my being relieved of that particular duty... and possibly of my billet. Sometimes the ensuing discussion would help me clear up my muddy thinking (along with a program to requalify for that duty), other times the chain of command would come up with a different way of doing business. Of course the person giving the order was usually aware of all those ramifications, just as I was, and we usually worked out an acceptable compromise.

Once in a great while I'd get away with not hearing the order. But that only works if your plan succeeds before someone officially notices that you're deaf.

Sometimes I knew that I should've called the boss and I didn't. Sometimes I'd get told "You shoulda called the boss", and other times no one would say anything... which is different from not noticing.

Of course the UCMJ is always there to handle the issues, although having to resort to that is frequently an admission of failure on both sides of the chain of command.

In the 1980s, when the submarine force used to regularly practice launching nuclear weapons, even with a valid & authenticated launch order only two-thirds of the launch crews would comply with the directed action. On a later tour I had a CO with whom we department heads would regularly squabble like cats & dogs (behind closed doors). So your question isn't exactly unfamiliar territory.

If you care to share a little more explanation about the questions you're asking then I'd be happy to engage in a discussion. But this feels more like a deposition.

[Peshkwe]

Wait...what?

There's a hella lot of waste in the military. Waste has been going on for ages, sometimes there's a purpose for it sometimes there's not. Extra stuff is written off and sent to dumps to be later picked up by the folks who wrote it off since the 70's.

Ask any house mouse.

[matapule]

I'd do what I was trained to do (aside from the pouty face). I'd make sure that I understood what it was that I was being asked to do, and if it was unjust/illegal then I'd do my best to offer just/legal alternatives. And if none of those alternatives were judged acceptable then I'd explain why I was regrettably turning down the original order, which would usually result in my being relieved of that particular duty... and possibly of my billet

I think that is an honorable code of ethics. The reason I asked is I've always wondered what I would do.....but I already knew that answer.

Mahalo

[TuNnL]

I already have Salmoned, TimKona, and TuNnl on my "Ignore Poster" listWow, what a dubious distinction. Someone tell me what I have in common with the other two. Please be gentle. :D

[matapule]

There's a hella lot of waste in the military.

I worked for a company a few years ago that manufactured patrol boats for Homeland Security for both the Coast Guard and Navy by military contract. We were the largest military boat builder in the US based on number of units delivered. Our company was guaranteed a fixed net profit margin on every project regardless of cost over runs, design changes, or whatever. In fact the more over runs, the more profit. This is not a good business model for the American taxpayer, in my opinion.

[Peshkwe]

No it's not...and it goes much deeper than the general contracts. It's the nickle and dime stuff that really screws with the tax payer.

[Leo Lakio]

Each generation of my family also served in the military,Just wondering - does that include you, personally? Since you are an expert on the military...:rolleyes:

[Composite 2992]

For what it's worth: A military force isn't in itself good or bad.

It's how the leadership wields that power which defines the nature of that force. Just like a baseball bat, a knife or a rifle. You can use it to do something good or you can corrupt it to perform some of the most dastardly acts imaginable.

So if you want a good military, elect good leaders.

[TuNnL]

It's how the leadership wields that power which defines the nature of that force. Just like a baseball bat, a knife or a rifle. You can use it to do something good or you can corrupt it to perform some of the most dastardly acts imaginable.

So if you want a good military, elect good leaders.As I detailed earlier (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showpost.php?p=209291&postcount=13), it’s not that simple. I wish it was. I’m an optimist in that we can still try to change things. But you are only fooling yourself if you believe that our elected leaders are really in charge.

[Composite 2992]

As I detailed earlier (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showpost.php?p=209291&postcount=13), it’s not that simple. I wish it was. I’m an optimist in that we can still try to change things. But you are only fooling yourself if you believe that our elected leaders are really in charge.

Nothing is that simple. But the fundamental principle is.

Hitler had his own twisted intentions and had a military force to help him achieve his goals. Hitler wanted to conquer Europe and perhaps more. And he wanted to create a new society through the liberal application of genocide.

There were people within his organization who secretly tried to stop him, but that plot failed.

Churchill and Roosevelt also had military forces to help them achieve their goal: Stop Hitler.

Each were guided by their own personal principles and the historical result is clearly seen.

To have a successful business, effective government or a good military, you need to start off with a good leader. It's not a cure-all. But it's a necessary start.

[Jim75]

Our military is like a baby that never grows up. No matter how much you feed it, or how proud it makes you feel, it never advances beyond waving it’s arms & legs, producing varying amounts of noise and copious amounts of waste.Sometimes people see things in other people or things that are qualities/attributes/descriptors that they themself possess. Sometimes the external entity actually possesses the quality or attribute, but frequently it doesn't. One thing is certain, the quality is part of the individual who judges the quality to exist in another. It's too uncomfortable for them to have direct awareness that the quality they revile is actually a part of their own psychological make-up. Psych-speak refers to these as "disowned and devalued parts of the self". Carl Jung labeled this the "Shadow", due to its being pushed "behind" us, outside of our awareness.

Every person, culture, sub-culture, and social-group is socialized to deny and reject certain qualities. As such, the individual pushes these personal energies and characteristics out of their awareness, denying their existance within. Psychologically juggling them out of awareness does not cause them to cease to exist. They continue to press for expression. Increasing insight into the self and acceptance of these devalued intrapsychic energies reflects personal growth and advanced personality development. Acknowledgement and acceptance of the self, the whole self, allows the person to begin to find socially acceptable, non-destructive outlets for these denied energies. Energies that previously operated and found expression via avenues outside of the individual's conscious awareness. Intrapsychic processes that operate outside of a persons awareness often find expression in undesirable ways, outside of the person's control. Most, if not all, people have had the experience of saying to themself "Why did I do that?", with regret.

No-one is immune to this phenomena. It is entirely part of being human. The message is to accept and love yourself, imperfections, dark corners, and all. This alone won't solve all of a person's problems or the problems of the world, but to the extent that people everywhere are able to do this there would almost certainly be a reciprocal reduction in the need for Armies to exist at all.

[Random]

You are too young to remember.
That's good, because I feel 39 years too old.

[sinjin]

Wow, what a dubious distinction. Someone tell me what I have in common with the other two. Please be gentle. :DDo you own a weed whacker?

[salmoned]

Just wondering - does that include you, personally? Since you are an expert on the military...:rolleyes:

Yes, I wouldn't utterly disparage without intimate, broad based familiarity. I have served, I've done my duty, I know firsthand, and yes, I was a part of the waste (and continue to be as long as I pay taxes that support the military). I wouldn't claim to be a military expert, it doesn't require a military expert to make an observation on the military. In fact, a military expert is quite likely to have a rather biased perspective on our military (pro or con).