Unsettled Economy & The Bailout

[Random]

Where is your vision? Where is your inspiration?
It's there. The money's not.

Think outside the box, man! The future needs people with imagination. If we can put a man on the moon within three years of starting the project, then we can design, and build, and produce a car within 3 years that will get 250 miles or more on a charge at top speed of 50mph and cost $15K to $20K and with a 10 year warranty on the batteries.
Heh. Even NASA needs money to research and develop rocket. They also need Nazi German scientists.

[Vanguard]

Thanks, Vanguard, I have a deposit on an Aptera. Do you think it might turn some heads on the highways of O'ahu? But the price really needs to come down to hit the bullseye. But I am willing to prime the pump to get some of these babies on the road. These are inspirational guys thinking outside the box. Take a look at the Tesla too. Very expensive but we are getting closer each year.

You're quite welcome, Matapule! Did you arrange this deposit after I linked it? If so, I really hope it's as good as they say it is (now I'm nervous! :p ). Plus you'd have to wait for them to have maintenance opportunities in Hawai'i.

[timkona]

Electric Car. Less than $10k. Goes pretty far. Even in the rain. http://www.gemcar.com/

How often can you actually go over 25-30 mph in this crazy traffic?

[Vanguard]

Anti-democratic nature of US capitalism is being exposed: "The United States effectively has a one-party system, the business party, with two factions, Republicans and Democrats." (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1010/1223560345968.html)

[matapule]

Did you arrange this deposit after I linked it?

No, I've had a deposit for about 2 months now.

Plus you'd have to wait for them to have maintenance opportunities in Hawai'i.

I do my own maintenance. I see a business opportunity for Hawai'i in the future.

[matapule]

Electric Car. Less than $10k. Goes pretty far. Even in the rain. http://www.gemcar.com/

How often can you actually go over 25-30 mph in this crazy traffic?

Actually, the Ford Think (http://www.buildorbuy.org/hrncir/fordthink2002.html) is better than the GEM. The Think has a top speed of 35mph and a range of about 40 miles. Remember both the Think and the GEM are only legal on roads with a max. 35mph speed limit. They are good around town on most roads. Neither vehicle is currently in production. Used vehicles are for sale on Craig's List starting at $3000.

[matapule]

Oh wonderful! Wall Street gets a bailout yet there are no regulations on officer compensations. Read the whole depressing story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081024/ap_on_bi_ge/meltdown_wall_street_pay_3) here.

[tutusue]

Hmmm...for every financial institution that receives even $1. of bailout money (taxpayer money), maybe, along with the amount of bailout money each institution received, the financial statements that show executive compensations could be posted on one specific web site...dedicated just for that purpose...with the URL listed as a PSA at the end of every news program and on the front page of the business section of every newspaper! Forever! :D

Seriously, since the taxpayers will have a vested interest in these financial institutions, I would like easily accessible accountability.

[Kalalau]

It was on the Randi Rhodes Nova M show today that the bailed out banks are using the public funds to...acquire other banks. Socialism for the Rich, indeed. Randi checks her facts, she is almost always 100 % spot on.

[U'ilani]

Wisdom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCt2yRqlCcQ&eur

1:58 - yup

2:47 - yup; it's not a pretty picture

[timkona]

Dow Jones down 300 pts in the wake of Obama election.

Funny how stocks have been reacting negatively everytime Obama gained in the polls for the last month. No surprise what happened today.

[Leo Lakio]

Dow Jones down 300 pts in the wake of Obama election.

Funny how stocks have been reacting negatively everytime Obama gained in the polls for the last month. No surprise what happened today.Interpret it as you will, Tim, but that's not what experts are saying:"Yesterday's market action was in anticipation of an Obama victory - it looks like more of a landslide - now we're down to business and the market is going to wait until he talks about an economic plan," said Peter Cardillo, chief market economist at Avalon Partners.The anticipation of President-Elect Obama's victory sent the index UP 305.45 points yesterday, in the largest election day rise in the Dow ever.

[Leo Lakio]

Oh no! Down a second day in a row! Forget all other economic factors of the past year - this HAS to be the fault of the Obama win!! The sky is falling - the sky is falling!!!




"glurg.";)

[matapule]

Now the automakers (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_what_happened_2) want to be included in the bailout! Where will this end? The automakers want the taxpayers to bail them out because they made bad business decisions. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry is going to be lining up to get their share from the pig trough. The bailout is an idea that is bad for the economy. Obama's first test is to see how he is going to handle the self centered corporate interests.

[Ron Whitfield]

Yep, everybody who's screwed us will get bailed out except the screwee's.

[timkona]

Automakers (and most of the rest of US Mfg) have been slowly destroyed by the Unions, and by poor vision of the overpaid Execs. Labor is a world commodity. Wage pressure is a killer to the bottom line of any large company.

I'm against any, and all, bailout ideas. Business is business. Leave business alone. The bad businesses go under, and new companies rise to fill the niche. And if you get your toes singed, then step back from the fire.

We are in big trouble due a historical fact of demographics. As the boomers age and leave the workforce, economy is bound to drop, just as it rose in the 80's when the same folks were entering the workforce. It's really not that hard to understand.

[escondido100]

the only automakers that are doing badly are the detroit automakers. elsewhere in the US where they dont have the same union pensions and favorable tax laws seem to be doing fine.

[Frankie's Market]

Automakers (and most of the rest of US Mfg) have been slowly destroyed by the Unions, and by poor vision of the overpaid Execs. Labor is a world commodity. Wage pressure is a killer to the bottom line of any large company.

When in doubt, blame the unions/blue-collar workers for being greedy, huh?

Doesn't jive with US Census data, which shows the gap between the richest 20% and everyone else growing over the last 30 years.

Wanna know how greedy and wasteful CEOs and their cronies are? Read Jordan Belfort's The Wolf Of Wall Street. Those CEOs can moan and complain about how the unions are driving the company to the poor house,.... but at the same time, they see no problems with giving themselves salaries and bonuses that are so outrageous, they don't even know what to do with all the money they are getting. It's senselessly being spent on multiple vacation homes, luxury yachts, Lear jets, lavish parties,..... and yes, even drugs.

You can sympathize all you want with those "poor" CEOs for having to deal with the "greedy" unions. But when you get to see the lifestyle of those Fortune 500 execs, that sympathy will really be tested.

[timkona]

Frankie, did you read the part about "poor vision of overpaid Execs" ???

$400,000 bonuses to one person, or $27/hr for everybody else who put round pegs in round holes.

I would argue that both are egregious. The problem is that LABOR is a world commodity. The price of labor in America is way out of sync with the rest of the planet.

[Frankie's Market]

Frankie, did you read the part about "poor vision of overpaid Execs" ???

Oh, I read that, all right.

To equate the "overpaid" compensation to execs with the wages of unionized workers is laughable. As I said, open your eyes and do some research on the extravagant lifestyles of men like Jordan Belfort. "Grossly overpaid" is more like it. And please, no arguments about Belfort being a special case. Don't make yourself sound so naive. :rolleyes:

No, the outrageous salaries, bonuses, expense accounts, and golden parachutes given to these CEOs have been far more destructive than supposedly inflated wages and benefits that are given to the front line workers. And labor disputes are not always about unions greedily wanting increases. If you bother to check the facts, you will find that many times, the dispute is over workers fighting to merely maintain the wages/benefits that they already have, in the face of a company's threats to reduce them.

Nice try equating the two, but you're comparing a terminal illness to a toothache.

[Leo Lakio]

The price of labor in America is way out of sync with the rest of the planet.So is the cost of goods and services, especially medical care. Since the majority of American workers get their care and goods in America, it's rather ridiculous to compare their salaries with the rest of the world.

[Adri]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/09/news/companies/dhl/index.htm?postversion=2008110922

"/snip
DHL's parent company, German-based Deutsche Post World Net, will announce plans for its U.S. operations to investors Monday, said spokesman Jonathan Baker. He did not respond to published reports that Deutsche Post has ordered roughly 8,000 layoffs at DHL's Wilmington hub.
/snip"

CNN on tv just said that they expect 10,000 layoffs in Wilmington. My sympathies to the people who will be affected by the layoff if there is one. The government in Ohio is scrambling for emergency aid in anticipation of the layoff.

[MyopicJoe]

While everyone's been focused on the $700B bailout plan, the Treasury Department has pulled a ninja move by removing a 20+ year old law which prevented companies from dodging taxes. Apparently this is the cornerstone to some of the recent bank mergers. Banks are giddy and plan to use the expected bailout money to buy failing banks and use them as tax shelters. Some law makers are furious, some think it's illegal, but they're afraid public exposure will ruin the economy.

"It's just like after September 11. Back then no one wanted to be seen as not patriotic, and now no one wants to be seen as not doing all they can to save the financial system,"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/09/AR2008110902155.html

[Frankie's Market]

"/snip
DHL's parent company, German-based Deutsche Post World Net, will announce plans for its U.S. operations to investors Monday, said spokesman Jonathan Baker. He did not respond to published reports that Deutsche Post has ordered roughly 8,000 layoffs at DHL's Wilmington hub.
/snip"

CNN on tv just said that they expect 10,000 layoffs in Wilmington. My sympathies to the people who will be affected by the layoff if there is one. The government in Ohio is scrambling for emergency aid in anticipation of the layoff.

Last week, Circuit City announced plans to close 20% of its stores and lay off more than 3,000 workers. Today, they declare for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, with plans to lay off more employees.

Well, for anyone who thought that the stock market crash's impact would be confined to Wall Street and would not impact the folks on Main Street (and y'all know who you are), here's reality hitting ya,..... right in the face.

This is going to be a deeper and longer laster recession than the ones Reagan and Clinton had to deal with.

[Ron Whitfield]

And it's all Obama's fault!

[Adri]

Yeah, I heard Rush Limbaugh is already calling it "Obama's Recession". :rolleyes:

[timkona]

2 years ago Congress went Democrat.
A Little after that, the economy started tanking.


Did you ever wonder if, maybe, it's not Obama nor Bush's fault?

[matapule]

The economy started tanking when Reagan took office 28 years ago. All these years we have been living in false prosperity by living on credit both personally and nationally. Let's not re-write history.

[timkona]

Yeah but what about the Clinton Surplus?

:cool:

[Vanguard]

Let's not re-write history.

In my re-written history, Freddie Mercury lives, performs nightly concerts at the Waikiki Shell, and destroys Asteroid 2002 MN (http://www.discoverychannel.ca/reports/rw/11319/Daily-Planet-WEB-EXTRA---Asteroid-encounters-that-almost-happened.aspx) while singing the Flash Gordon theme song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNf9rEPoc8Q).

And I somehow invest in Google right before it goes public.

[escondido100]

like it or not, yachts, vacation homes, extravagant parties, private jets, etc. all equal jobs. the wealthy pay the lions share of taxes and provide the lions share of jobs in our country. when they outsource they contribute to tax bases elsewhere and put food on the table of people that are not american.
In kona, if it were not for the wealthy we would all be farming or fishing or starving, honorable trades, but i'm just saying.

[Vanguard]

America Discovers That Bailout Will Be Used To Pay Wall Street Bonuses (http://www.clusterstock.com/2008/11/america-discovers-that-bailout-will-be-used-to-pay-wall-street-bonuses)

I am positively shocked and beside myself! :eek:

[matapule]

Yeah but what about the Clinton Surplus?


Yes, I didn't bring it up,....... I wanted you to bring it up.....which you did. Thank you! Yes, Clinton was able to balance the budget and pass a surplus on to W. Yes, 20 years under republican leadership and the economy goes into the tank. 8 years under democrat leadership and the economy shows improvement. And you Tim voted for more of that 20 year pattern with McCain. The economy has been under assault from the time that Reaganomics was initiated in 1980 with the exception of 8 years under Clinton. Tim are you seeing a pattern here?

So far Obama appears to be indicating a return to Clinton era economics. But I will be watching him closely. No free ride for Obama from me. Conceptually I am opposed to a bailout for the Detroit automakers, but he devil is in the details, so we shall wait and see exactly what Obama does. I do not want to reward 50 years of bad decisions and mismanagement by Detroit. In my opinion, Detroit automakers are worth salvaging if they are committed to producing small energy efficient autos using alternative forms of energy. No more Hummers and Escalades! Detroit is cabable of producing cars that meet the demands of the future and will make us virtually independent from foreign oil. If we can put a man on the moon within 3 years of starting a program, we can build and mass produce a hybrid/electric car that will get in excess of 100 mpg for under $20K within 3 years. And that would just be the first step toward reclaiming our position as the premier automaker in the world!

YES WE CAN!

[timkona]

Yup, I'm totally with ya on the MPG thing. '01 Echo been gettin 38 solid for years. That sucker has 120k miles already. Who says Hawaii ain't the Big Island.

The '06 Corolla gets 44 with a few tricks up my sleeve. And a lot of coasting downhill with the engine off.

I will be honest. At one point in my life, I actually cast a vote for Ross Perot. Talk about wasting a vote. Too bad he never won. Maybe all this could be averted.

Or maybe it's an unavoidable reality due to the demographic impacts of such a large number of folks in the same age group. And you know who you are.

[matapule]

And a lot of coasting downhill with the engine off.

Careful with the steering wheel lock! I would hate to lose my number 1 punching bag on HT!

I will be honest. At one point in my life, I actually cast a vote for Ross Perot. Talk about wasting a vote.

I can do you one better, once I actually wrote in Mickey Mouse.

Or maybe it's an unavoidable reality due to the demographic impacts of such a large number of folks in the same age group. And you know who you are.

Tutu and I are going to have a bake sale to rescue the economy.

Hang on! Help is on the way! YES WE CAN!

[Kalalau]

The bailout may be expanded to keep Ford, GM, and Chrysler afloat. Mixed feelings. You do want hundreds of thousands of people to be able to continue being employed and making their payments, you want stockholders including pension funds, etc, to be able to continue collecting dividends, but...this is supposedly a Capitalist system. Is this the final proof that capitalism does not work? A fusion of private industry and government is technically "fascism", but it like "socialism" is only a word; whatever works, whatever is needed, is what you have to do, period--you should not sacrifice your entire economy on the altar of ideological purity. Yet if we admit that capitalism is not working in banking and the auto industry, don't we also have to accept the reality that it is not working in health care? Meaning, isn't a Canadian or Australian or English or German or Swedish or Danish (etc) style "socialized) medical system just as necessary as the fusion of public capital into the private banking and private auto industries? Should we draw a line, or not? GM, Ford, and Chrysler made some very poor decisions, they are paying the price, as they should under capitalism, but that does not change the fact that their demise would be a catastrophe for the economy. Your thoughts?

[Ron Whitfield]

Capitalism can work fine if regulated and restricted. But runaway profiteering and pure greed is it's downfall, and the US version has proved it.

This bailout is a worthless scam and isn't going to work.

The way to save this whole mess is to institute 'trickle up' policies, by giving every responsible head of household at least 50K in real $ to open/expand bank accounts (saving the banks), buying new cars (saving GM etc.), invest or become entreprenuers (a lasting stimulus for the economy), and nearly endless other positives instead of throwing fake $ down the toilet to those who are to blame for all this.

[tutusue]

[...]
Tutu and I are going to have a bake sale to rescue the economy.

Hang on! Help is on the way! YES WE CAN!
Count me in. I can make a mean dump cake. YES I CAN!

[matapule]

Should we draw a line, or not? GM, Ford, and Chrysler made some very poor decisions, they are paying the price, as they should under capitalism, but that does not change the fact that their demise would be a catastrophe for the economy. Your thoughts?

I think you have put your finger on the crux of the problem. I will support the Detroit bailout if the government can tell the automakers that they HAVE to plan for the future - small, fuel efficient cars using alternative sources of power. Will that happen, given Detroit's track record? I doubt it.

This bailout is a worthless scam and isn't going to work.

So far it doesn't look good.

The way to save this whole mess is to institute 'trickle up' policies, by giving every responsible head of household at least 50K in real $

Interesting concept, but will never work in practice. But I give you kudos for thinking outside the box. Keep the ideas coming!

[matapule]

Count me in. I can make a mean dump cake. YES I CAN!

YES! and I will make my patented "medicinal" brownies. YES ZIG ZAG MAN CAN! We're on our way to economic recovery!

[tutusue]

YES! and I will make my patented "medicinal" brownies. YES ZIG ZAG MAN CAN! We're on our way to economic recovery!
How 'bout setting up a bar with your special margaritas?! :)
Just leave it up to us ol' futs. We can get this economy up and running again. YES WE CAN!

[timkona]

Sounds to me like if poorly run companies go out of business, then that is capitalism working just fine. Detroit ignored the writing on the wall for over 3 decades. And anybody who invested, or depends upon their success, probably made some bad decisions with their "capital" at some point.

It is noteworthy that Ron and I agree completely on the folly of any bailout plan.

[craigwatanabe]

Detroit was only building what the automotive public wanted...BIG SUV's. If you were a manufacturer of goods, wouldn't you build what the people want?In a way, it's the US consumer that commands what the market will bear.

But as for bailing out the US auto industry? I think that's the wrong move. Having worked at Toyota and trying to finance people wanting to buy a car, it's the banks and other lending institutions that have clamped down on their lending practices. There was a time when you could be Tier 3 and buy a car with nothing down. Now you have to be a high Tier 2 if not a perfect Tier 1 to purchase a car and that's with at least $1,000 down.

Subprime lenders such as Drive, Beneficial, Citicorp and others have made these stipulations on financing Credit Challenged customers buying a used car: 1) the car cannot be more than three years old from date of manufacturer, and 2) the car has to have less than 50K miles. The reason is if the loan goes into default and the car needs to be repossessed, there is still value in the car at the wholesale auctions to recover most if not all of the loan value.

The problem with that is a car that fits these stipulations is about as much as a new car. The difference is that length of time you can finance a used vehicle is limited to 60-months with Tier 4 customers hitting a maximum 36-month limit. A new car can be taken out to as long as 72-80 months. This allows the consumer to purchase a car with reasonable monthly payments.

It is for these reasons is why the bailout should be limited to just the lending institutions so they can relax lending limitations and allow the consumer to borrow again. That will in turn allow auto dealers to sell cars.

If the bailout is used to subsidize the auto manufacturers, it does nothing to allow them to sell their cars at the dealerships if the banks don't loosen their grip. Suddenly these manufacturers will find a huge surplus of unsold vehicles and the plants will have to shut down until the demand for those vehicles picks up. If thebailout does go to the auto manufacturers, the hardest hit will be the unionized work force. Toyota incorporates a non-unionized labor force resulting in a cost savings of over a $1000 per vehicle. That savings goes back into the quality build of it's products. 1-in-4 vehicles driving on the roads here in Hawaii are typically Toyotas.

But even with fantastic year end incentives such as 0% interest, 2.9% interest, cash back rebates, Toyota still has a huge overstock of unsold Tacoma pick up trucks...the number one small truck sold here in Hawaii and Toyota has too many of them. You want great value? You'll find them in the 08 Tacoma trucks that are still sitting in the lots as 2009 looms two months away.

This may sound like a plug for Toyota, but this is an insight to just how troubling even a solid car company such as Toyota cannot move metal fast enough to pay the banks back and the kinds of incentives to move old stock that will be needed to save their bottom lines.

It comes down to the banks allowing auto dealers to finance and close deals with customers. The bank wins, the dealership wins, and the customer gets a great deal. Leave the bailout to the banks.

On another note I had a conversation with my kid's A+ councellor. She said she heard that if the Feds gave every taxpayer an equal portion of the total amount of the bailout, we'd get a friggin' huge amount of money per person in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. That kind of stimulus check would definately boost consumer spending confidence and would have kick started our economy back into a bull market again.

[Ron Whitfield]

On another note I had a conversation with my kid's A+ councellor. She said she heard that if the Feds gave every taxpayer an equal portion of the total amount of the bailout, we'd get a friggin' huge amount of money per person in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. That kind of stimulus check would definately boost consumer spending confidence and would have kick started our economy back into a bull market again.

Like I mentioned above, a 'measly' 50K would be enuf for any middle/lower class person to do various things to help themselves and the institutions/economy, and save our butts.

However, the negative me say's the powers that be don't want to actually solve the problems we face, and would never consider giving us the $.

[matapule]

Detroit was only building what the automotive public wanted...BIG SUV's. If you were a manufacturer of goods, wouldn't you build what the people want?In a way, it's the US consumer that commands what the market will bear.

More truth than poetry in what you say. But the problem is that Detroit did not look toward the future to build a car that was energy efficient, used alternative energy, AND was what the automotive public wanted. It takes no more energy to design and build an Escalade that some of the public wanted as it does to build the car of the future that the public wanted.

It is for these reasons is why the bailout should be limited to just the lending institutions so they can relax lending limitations and allow the consumer to borrow again. That will in turn allow auto dealers to sell cars.

Excellent point! but credit should not be relaxed to the point where a consumer cannot afford the payments on the vehicle. In other words the consumer is allowed to purchase something greater than he can realistically afford on his current income, much like what happened in the housing market.

That kind of stimulus check would definately boost consumer spending confidence and would have kick started our economy back into a bull market again.

It would also be highly inflationary. What the economy needs right now is more saving and paying off existing debt, not more spending. I suppose that is bad news for car sales.

[craigwatanabe]

Working in car sales, there are two types of salespeople: 1) the jerk that wants to sell you too much car where your payments are unrealistic, and 2) the qualifier who helps you find the right vehicle for the right price.

The difference in the two is that the jerk salesman will never garner your business ever again and in this biz, you need to establish a repeat and referral customer base in order to do good, otherwise you'll be working harder to get new clientele to replace the one you just screwed over.

The qualifier is actually your best friend in the auto sales business. Sometimes a customer will walk in wanting champagne but can only afford water. I ask the qualifying questions that help me determine how much you can comfortably afford and find the right vehicle or trim package that will work for you. Then I talk with the manager or the desk to negotiate the best compromise between dealer and buyer.


A good car salesperson shouldn't put you into deeper financial debt. Unfortunately some do to fatten their commission checks. But if you trust the guy who sold you your last car, you'll go back to him when you need another or would refer a friend or family member to that person as a trusted salesman. This is how the car sales biz works. If you catch a salesman lying to you he could lose his job or the FTC could slap huge fines on that auto dealership.

There are ethics in car sales, you just gotta hook up with the right person that will broker you with the right purchase.

[timkona]

Mata is dead on when talking about Americans paying off their personal debt to help the national economy. Many hands make light work, and all that.

Every bailout plan carries with it the implied lack of belief in a capitalistic economy. To support govt rescue of private business is to embrace bad business practice. I say ..... Let'em suffer.

Government has become too expensive for its own good in the last 35 years. Red Tape, EIS, Public Hearings, Beauracracy, Layers of Command, Redundant Processes, Expiration of decisions, Entitlements without expirations or conditions, fraud, corruption, lack of oversight, embezzlement, etc. etc. We have spent so much time making laws to protect us from ourselves that we cannot even build a home anymore for less than a kings ransom. Let alone a road, a govt building, or a park.

We are imploding in upon ourselves just exactly the same way the Roman Empire collapsed.

The weight of the DOLE.

[Leo Lakio]

What the economy needs right now is more saving and paying off existing debt, not more spending.Mata is dead on when talking about Americans paying off their personal debt to help the national economy.Yep. Did it a couple years ago, before the current tanking, and just before I was unexpectedly unemployed. I was glad, at the time of my layoff, that I had finally built up my savings and paid off all my debt, save a mortgage.

Oh, and regarding Tim's dire damnation of Democrats, President-Elect Obama specifically, for the tanking of the markets? Here's what the AP reported about the Dow today:
Wall Street launched a massive rebound Thursday, muscling the Dow Jones industrial average up nearly 553 points after driving it down near its lows for the year...According to preliminary calculations, the Dow rose 552.59, or 6.67 percent, to 8,835.25, after falling as low as 7,965.42 and rising as high as 8,876.59. That's a trading range of 911 points. The Dow did not sink below its Oct. 10 trading low of 7,882.51.See, Tim? So many factors involved - it's not as simple as "the markets hate the election results." But you know that ... don't you?

[escondido100]

this is an interesting article from the natinal review, i think it sums it up pretty well in regards to the bailout scheme:

The auto companies argue that they have been caught up in the credit crunch, and therefore deserve a piece of the financial bailout. General Motors’ sales dropped 45 percent in October. Ford and GM lost nearly $15 billion in cash between July and September, and GM says it might not have enough cash to operate by early next year.

But this crisis is only the punctuation mark on decades of decline. Once a market-dominating behemoth, GM had 50 percent of the U.S. market in the 1960s. It is down to almost 20 percent now. U.S. consumers have long been voting against U.S. automakers. Now, they’ll be asked to put their tax dollars at risk to preserve the very companies from which they don’t want cars.

The bailout would be of the United Auto Workers as much as of the automakers. It’s the UAW that saddled the Big Three with unsustainable labor costs and obligations to retirees. Detroit has desperately been trying to get out from under this burden, but Ford still lost $1,467 per vehicle in 2007, while GM lost $729 and Chrysler lost $412. Where the UAW doesn’t reign, the industry thrives. Toyota and others profitably manufacture almost 4 million cars in nonunionized states in the South.

The case for the bailout is that the job losses from a GM going down — 100,000 directly, and many more indirectly — would be too painful to bear, and the government would be left holding the bag on GM’s pensions. This line of reasoning conceives of GM essentially as a job programs and welfare agency.

The cost of the government keeping the Big Three afloat would surely be more mandates for politically correct “green” cars. Holman Jenkins of The Wall Street Journal has pointed out the damage of already-existing mandates: “The Detroit Three have been effectively required to build small cars in high-wage, UAW factories, though it means losing money on every car.” If the Big Three have been inefficient until now, just wait until the Sierra Club is in charge.

A bailout of the automakers would signal a new era of government protection from competitive failures. Every other troubled business would show up in Washington, in the spirit of folk singer Tom Paxton’s lines after the Chrysler bailout in 1979:

“I am changing my name to ‘Chrysler.’

I am leaving for that great receiving line,

And when they hand a million grand out,

I’ll be standing with my hand out.

Yes, sir, I’ll get mine.”

The Paulson financial rescue obviously created a dangerous predicate. But the financial system is uniquely fragile. Banks that are otherwise sound, and have been run profitably for decades, can go under in a panic. Wells Fargo, which took an equity injection under duress, shouldn’t be confused with GM.

Washington Post business writer Steven Pearlstein suggests a compromise: Only commit government funds if the auto companies taking them go bankrupt. A bankruptcy court can reduce the obligations to retirees, make it possible for Chrysler and GM to pare back their unnecessary dealerships, and scale back wages and benefits. Top management should be fired. All of this can be set in a “prepackaged” bankruptcy that won’t disrupt operations.

But that probably makes too much sense. We’re a long way from the 1950s, when G.M. President Charles Wilson said, “What is good for General Motors is good for the country.” In a bailout nation, it’s the opposite.

© 2008 by King Features Syndicate

[timkona]

Naaaaahhhh, couldn't be the Unions. Glurg. :cool:

My American Made Toyota is a perfectly American car, made by hardworking Americans in Ohio and Kentucky.

How could Detroit NOT look to the future of more efficient cars when their market share has been plummeting for 25 years? People have been predicting the death of the US auto industry for years based upon their lack of vision.

[Frankie's Market]

like it or not, yachts, vacation homes, extravagant parties, private jets, etc. all equal jobs. the wealthy pay the lions share of taxes and provide the lions share of jobs in our country. when they outsource they contribute to tax bases elsewhere and put food on the table of people that are not american.

Are you serious? I guess so,....

Here's the problem with that thinking: Irresponsible and wasteful spending benefits a few people. As you say, a byproduct of lavish partying and private jets is that it does create jobs. But this kind of irresponsible spending is not sustainable over the long haul.

Stop and think about it for a moment: The housing bubble, while it was booming, benefitted construction workers as it created many jobs and opportunities in the short run. But it was unsustainable over the long term. And when the bubble burst, it has led to our present day crisis that we now find ourselves in.

I think this attitude of "any kind of spending is okay as long as it creates jobs and benefits somebody" is exactly what we DON'T need. Whether it be on Wall Street, Main Street, government,..... and yes, even people's own personal finances.

[escondido100]

personal responsibility. those workers that saved their money and did not live beyond their means and fall prey to predatory lending practices are doing just fine ,thank-you. who would bail me out?

[matapule]

The cost of the government keeping the Big Three afloat would surely be more mandates for politically correct “green” cars. Holman Jenkins of The Wall Street Journal has pointed out the damage of already-existing mandates: “The Detroit Three have been effectively required to build small cars in high-wage, UAW factories, though it means losing money on every car.” If the Big Three have been inefficient until now, just wait until the Sierra Club is in charge.

WRONG, National Review. Detroit has not produced any real "green cars" at this point. And most cars they do produce suck compared with cars produced by foreign automakers (many of which are manufactured in the good ol' USA at a profit).

The Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius are the first generation of green cars, they are profitable, and they are hughly popular. The Sierra Club could not posssibly do any worse than the Big Three management has done over the last 60 years.

the wealthy pay the lions share of taxes and provide the lions share of jobs in our country.

That statement is so full of unsubstantiated nonsense, I don't where to begin. But for starters, the wealthy do not pay the lions share of taxes. People earning under $100K per year pay the lions share of taxes. Go to the IRS website and check your facts. Small businesses owned by people earning less than $250K per year provide the lions share of jobs in the country.

In kona, if it were not for the wealthy we would all be farming or fishing or starving, honorable trades, but i'm just saying.

Where are the wealthy now when people are losing their jobs? You're going to find more and more people fishing and farming just to put food on the table as we get deeper into this recession.

[matapule]

personal responsibility. those workers that saved their money and did not live beyond their means and fall prey to predatory lending practices are doing just fine

I agree. But not only "workers" benefited, people earning over $250K benefited by living a conservative lifestyle. You might enjoy reading the book, The Millionaire Next Door.

[Vanguard]

bail-out is the biggest bank heist ever (http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/45826,opinion,bail-out-is-the-biggest-bank-heist-ever)

[LocalMotion]

WRONG, National Review. Detroit has not produced any real "green cars" at this point. And most cars they do produce suck compared with cars produced by foreign automakers (many of which are manufactured in the good ol' USA at a profit).

The Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius are the first generation of green cars, they are profitable, and they are hughly popular. The Sierra Club could not posssibly do any worse than the Big Three management has done over the last 60 years.

the Ford Focus and Ford Escape Hybrid are considered green and are in the top 10 on many list of "green" vehicles. I guess it depends on your definition of "green". But you are correct that most of their cars suck... The govt needs to let them file for bankruptcy so they can re-align themselves and bring their salaries back in line with something that's sustainable. Unions are going to have a hard time in these coming years.



That statement is so full of unsubstantiated nonsense, I don't where to begin. But for starters, the wealthy do not pay the lions share of taxes. People earning under $100K per year pay the lions share of taxes. Go to the IRS website and check your facts. Small businesses owned by people earning less than $250K per year provide the lions share of jobs in the country.


As you like to say. WRONG.. :D
Based on the spreadsheet from the IRS. those earning more than $100k pay 68% of the total taxes generated.

http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/41562/tax.jpg

I'd also like to see a link showing Small Biz under $250k provide over 60% of the jobs.

or what's your definition of "lions share"

[Ron Whitfield]

What about all the taxes that are avoided by so many companies being relocated off American- shores, not to mention all the jobs and taxes that would be collected from those potential employees?

[matapule]

the Ford Focus and Ford Escape Hybrid are considered green and are in the top 10 on many list of "green" vehicles. I guess it depends on your definition of "green".[quote]

Yes it is a relative term. But compared to a Prius, the Focus and Escape can hardly be considered "green." I looked at the Escape with something like 30 mpg under best conditions. But, at the time I looked, it would not work in the hybrid configuration if the air conditioning was on! Not very practical where I lived. Also, the owners of the Escape hybrid (on Internet chat) were not getting the mileage claimed by the mfg, much much less, a little over 20 mpg.

[quote]As you like to say. WRONG.. :D
Based on the spreadsheet from the IRS. those earning more than $100k pay 68% of the total taxes generated.

Thank you for your interesting research. Thank you for posting the table. I was WRONG with with what I specifically said. You are correct with regards to my benchmark. I am a little behind the times with my research. I guess the definition of what is considered wealthy in the US has changed over the years.

Let me just cite this reference from Wikipedia:

The Tax Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation) has made the claim that the tax cuts signed by U.S. Presidents Ronald Reagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan) and George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush), contrary to popular belief, actually made the U.S. tax code more progressive, not less. They state that in 1980, before Reagan's tax cuts, the richest 1% paid 19.05% of all federal income taxes, and by 1988, after Reagan's tax cuts, their share had increased to 27.58%. Likewise, in 2001, before Bush's tax cuts, the richest 1% paid 33.89% of all federal income taxes, and by 2006, after Bush's tax cuts, their share had increased to 39.89%.

[tutusue]

Now that the election is over, the beloved, 82 year old blogger, Helen (http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/), is waxing poetic on the economy! Her latest entry suggests that the overly profitable oil companies should bail out the auto makers. Not a bad idea...;)

Just don't ask her about Sarah Palin anymore! :D

[turtlegirl]

:) Thanks so much for telling us about Margaret and Helen's (http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/)blog! I added it to my favorites and read it all the time! Great to see Helen chime in today! I love those ladies!!

[tutusue]

:) Thanks so much for telling us about Margaret and Helen's (http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/)blog! I added it to my favorites and read it all the time! Great to see Helen chime in today! I love those ladies!!
Yep! I check in once a day and am always disappointed if they skip a day. Helen is priceless...and usually spot on!

[Walkoff Balk]

:) Thanks so much for telling us about Margaret and Helen's (http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/)blog! I added it to my favorites and read it all the time! Great to see Helen chime in today! I love those ladies!!
Awww, they're cute when they're that age. They say the darnest things.

[Seeking Penance]

:) Thanks so much for telling us about Margaret and Helen's (http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/)blog! I added it to my favorites and read it all the time! Great to see Helen chime in today! I love those ladies!!

YEAH! thanks TG!!

[Frankie's Market]

personal responsibility. those workers that saved their money and did not live beyond their means and fall prey to predatory lending practices are doing just fine ,thank-you.

They're doing fine,.....provided their employment or business is not adversely affected by the souring economy. And with the way the economy is tailspinning, the number of people and industries unaffected is quickly shrinking.

Better wake up and smell the coffee! There are lots of thrifty and financially responsible folks out there who, through no fault of their own, are now standing in the unemployment line because of this recession.

who would bail me out?

Why do you need a bailout?

[tutusue]

Finger-pointing begins as Senate nixes auto vote (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_go_co/auto_bailout_what_s_next)
Dow slips below 8,000 on growing fear of deflation (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_bi_ge/financial_meltdown)

And, now for the bad news...:rolleyes:

[matapule]

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people paddling and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people paddling.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were paddling.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the paddling team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people paddling the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the paddlers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices, and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off one paddler, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

The next year, try as he might, the lone designated paddler was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles), so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

Sadly, the End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US.

The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racks up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses...

IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY

(yes, Bob, you can borrow this for your column)

[escondido100]

interesting labor statistics..... Why should we bail out some of the most highly paid workers in the country?
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/images/wm2135_chart1.gif

[timkona]

Japanese mfg in America knows the danger of unions. That's why they are not going under.

Unions had their day. And they were good. But the sun has set on that anachronistic concept. Stop clinging to the past.

[Vanguard]

(US) Government reportedly involved in Citi deal (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27877195/)

...

[Kalalau]

If it is wrong for auto workers to earn $ 75 an hour, is it right for attorneys to earn $200 an hour? Is it right for American auto executives to earn $17 million a year, and the head of Toyota $1 million a year? How about the $1 billion parting gift to a health insurance company CEO?

America has the highest paid auto workers in the world. It always did. That is never a problem if the product is selling. If the product is not selling thats almost always the executives' doing. Every American made car comes to market incorporating a cost of about $1,200 for health insurance--a cost that is vastly lower in countries with national health care, but America does have to protect that $1 billion insurance company executive, doesn't it? It is so important to protect choice in health care, the choice of insurance companies to drop clients, exclude conditions, just flat out deny payment for covered conditions and wait for the claimant to die.

Why was the country's most prosperous, successful, dominant era when union membership was the highest?

[matapule]

Kalalau, good points one and all and worth pondering. Props!

[escondido100]

there is absolutely nothing wrong with making union wages.....what is interesting is that they are proposing to pay for the bloat on the backs of the average wage earner who makes 25-30 an hour with bennies. doesnt seem right. i charge my time out at 100 per hour but i cant afford health insurance because of other costs associated with my biz and the vagaries of hawaii insurance laws why should i make suire with my taxes that auto workers get to keep theirs?

[Kalalau]

The smaller the pool, the higher the rates.
The larger the pool, the lower the rates. So they say.

Add a few more million auto workers and related workers to the uninsured, no problem. Their costs will just show up someplace else, even as they get sick and die and drop out of the tax base. We can end up being just like what India and China have struggled so mightily to change from being. We can have our cars assembled by child labor at 35 cents an hour, exposed to toxics that kill them before they are old enough to vote--the problem of uninsured workers takes care of itself!

Some how, some way, the health for profit system must be abolished. True, Canada's, France's, England's, Germany's, Japan's, etc health care systems are not perfect but their imperfection is no reason for us to continue to tolerate our failed system. Fewer and fewer people will be able to get health care. Blue Cross now offers Californians bargain health insurance--in Mexico. Medical refugees fleeing America for Mexico! I can imagine people from Hawai'i signing up, too--it could be well worth it to fly to Mexicali or Tijuana for treatment of a covered condition rather than let it fester and kill you in Hawai'i, or pay for it out of pocket. Look into it! Maybe Blue Cross can come up with something like that for our soon to be uninsured auto workers, too, maybe with a Blue Cross Canada program. Its interesting to speculate what the final math will look like--what will the final number of insured people be? And what will their rates be? The smaller the pool, etc. And then, at what point does the cost of the sickness and death of the uninsured collapse the whole system? It will be interesting to find out.

[MyopicJoe]

Haha, China is schooling us now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7766333.stm

[tutusue]

AP study finds $1.6B went to bailed-out bank execs (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081221/ap_on_bi_ge/executive_bailouts)
The total amount given to nearly 600 executives would cover bailout costs for many of the 116 banks that have so far accepted tax dollars to boost their bottom lines.
:mad:

[matapule]

:mad:

You and I both, Tutu. Where is the oversight?

[timkona]

Why bail them out in the first place? That's the part I don't understand.

If you run your business poorly, then you go out of business. Simple.

Let the banks and the automakers fend for themselves.

[matapule]

Why bail them out in the first place? That's the part I don't understand.

If you run your business poorly, then you go out of business. Simple.

Let the banks and the automakers fend for themselves.

Let me 'splain it to you as Desi said.

It is just not simply the banks or automakers going out of business, it will take down many other businesses (that are well run and well managed) with them. It is the trickle down effect. In fact it could trickle down right to you Tim and you could lose your employment. For example, the automakers are one of the biggest advertisers in the news media. If they go, advertising revenue is lost and advertising jobs are cut. That advertsing employee(s) may have been the one who was purchasing your good or service. Enough of them stop purchasing from you (or your employer) and you, Tim, are now suddenly out of a job.

It is not just the poorly run businesses that will go under, it will take many well run businesses with them that depend on business from those poorly run businesses. We are bailing out the poorly run businesses to keep our economy from going bankrupt. What is needed is better oversight and more regulations on how those bailout funds for those poorly run businesses are spent. Certainly not for corporate jets, lavish retreats, and bonuses for executives.

We are now paying for the lack of regulation fostered by the Bush administration and supported by Democrats Frank and Dodd. There is plenty of blame to go around. Our hope now is that Obama and his administration can fix it. We shall see, the clock is ticking.

By the way, I would like to see Congress cut their salaries and perks by 50% since THEY are part of the problem and another example of a poorly run business!

[timkona]

Trickle Down Economics? I thought that was a bad idea under Reagan.

There are automakers in America who are doing just fine. It's not like ALL automakers are suffering. Some US automakers are building best selling vehicles. There are banks in America doing just fine also.

So if business is suffering, adding more gummint regulation is one way to improve things? You say Congress cannot run themselves, but yet you advocate that they try to run other businesses also.

Cold Kool-Aid, with ice cubes, is my favorite.

[tutusue]

AP IMPACT: Wall Street still flying corporate jets (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081222/ap_on_bi_ge/meltdown_corporate_jets)
So why were Wall Street executives spared from the corporate-jet backlash? One reason is that they didn't have to go before Congress to request bailout money, so no one asked how they traveled to Washington.
:mad:

[Frankie's Market]

AP IMPACT: Wall Street still flying corporate jets (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081222/ap_on_bi_ge/meltdown_corporate_jets)

Blame Bush and Paulsen for not restricting private jet travel as a condition for anyone receiving bailout money.

I don't think they even capped CEO salaries as part of the bailout deal to Wall Street, did they?

[Ron Whitfield]

It's all a rip, and a worthless scam to perpetuate the grip the gas and auto industry have on us, and the $ coming to their political supporters. These major companies will continue to do just as they have, and only if Obama greatly supports the fledgling entreprenuers which have proven/future worthy commodities that are ready and able to take the place of the losers, will we move on from this sick joke.

[Leo Lakio]

It's all a rip, and a worthless scam to perpetuate the grip the gas and auto industry have on us, and the $ coming to their political supporters. These major companies will continue to do just as they have, and only if Obama greatly supports the fledgling entreprenuers which have proven/future worthy commodities that are ready and able to take the place of the losers, will we move on from this sick joke.He won't be able to do it - not as long as we Americans demand cheap gas prices, cheap consumer goods, and all kinds of cheap things that don't reflect the actual price of doing business in the world.


"What? I won't pay that much for running shoes - Company X makes 'em cheaper! (I just have to close my eyes to the ridiculous penny-wages they pay to children in their Bangladeshi factories.)"

"Your manufactured goods cost HOW MUCH? Forget it - I can save a nickel by buying these others instead! (While I grumble about good ol' 'merkan jobs being moved overseas to China.)"

"Look - new Airline Z charges only this much to fly to another island, while the locally-based ones have held us by the short hairs for too damn long; I'm taking my business to them! (And I can still feign offense when they want to take over the local name of the competitor they drove out of business.)"

"FOUR dollars a gallon?!?!? Do you know how much it's gonna cost me now to drive my SUV to the corner grocery store? Those worthless bastards in government better fix that! (But not with MY tax dollars.)"

[Ron Whitfield]

There is current tech available to eliminate the use of petrol on our streets, and the players that are up to supplying the vehicles that are 21st century worthy and inexpensive, if the CHANGE is willed enuf.

There's a large enuf % of the public that will jump on this and those that won't can be left in our non-polluting dust.

Those that have lead, suck. Those that have followed, have failed in making our leaders worthy. Those that won't get out of the way, good-bye!

[timkona]

Heres the truth about new technology.

CONSUMERS DON'T BUY IT.

This means that technological advancement in rudimentary science services is driven by consumer choice. You can give a buyer something better. You can give a buyer something cheaper. But if they don't BELIEVE in the technology, they won't spend money on it.

Cars like the EV-1, GEM, among many others, simply do not sell that much.
Solar panels - totally cost effective for 20+ years. Why doesn't every homeowner have them?
Solar hot water. No brainer. But some buildings don't have it.
Electricity is free, in the long run. That's the part CONSUMERS do not understand.

Why not ?????????

Technology revolutions are not driven by gummint. They are driven by consumers.

Buy it, and it will come. Believe in it, and it will happen even faster.

[matapule]

Buy it, and it will come. Believe in it, and it will happen even faster.

Mandate by government decree and it will happen immediately.

[joshuatree]

Heres the truth about new technology.

CONSUMERS DON'T BUY IT.

This means that technological advancement in rudimentary science services is driven by consumer choice. You can give a buyer something better. You can give a buyer something cheaper. But if they don't BELIEVE in the technology, they won't spend money on it.

Cars like the EV-1, GEM, among many others, simply do not sell that much.
Solar panels - totally cost effective for 20+ years. Why doesn't every homeowner have them?
Solar hot water. No brainer. But some buildings don't have it.
Electricity is free, in the long run. That's the part CONSUMERS do not understand.

Why not ?????????

Technology revolutions are not driven by gummint. They are driven by consumers.

Buy it, and it will come. Believe in it, and it will happen even faster.

Not entirely true, there were people who wanted to buy their EV1s off GM when they closed the program but GM declined.

Solar panels? Because not everyone calculates ROI in the long run, especially when you need 20+ years to recoup. Not to mention sometimes, local codes make the process a pain.

[timkona]

So Mata, I would guess you already have solar power, water, and a very high mileage, hybrid vehicle, right??

And Josh, the payoff on solar is about 7 years. There are no local codes that can lawfully prevent the use of solar power. The EV-1 sold a mere 1000 units in 7 years. If it was so great, why didn't consumers buy it??

Consumers spend their money how they like. You don't have the technologies yet, do you?

Instead of trying to tell us why others do not have the tech, please tell us why YOU do not buy it.

For the record, I get 41 mpg, 37 mpg, and have solar H20, CFL's, and lots of vegetables in the yard.

[matapule]

So Mata, I would guess you already have solar power, water, and a very high mileage, hybrid vehicle, right??.

Yes to all. I belong to a co-op with de-sal water. However I can still do better. In my opinion, de-sal is problematic. The brine that is dumped back into the ocean alters the local marine ecosystem via increased salinity. If everyone were to go to de-sal for water, it could have devasting consequences for the marine environment. So we're still looking for better solutions.

My daughters asked me what I wanted for Christmas since they say I am hard to buy for. I requested a blister pack of CFL's from Costco so that I can continue changing out all my bulbs.

Thank you, Tim, for your efforts on behalf of the environment.

[timkona]

The environment ?????????????? :cool:

Sorry dude, I'm an economic right winger. I have all these technologies because I love to SAVE MONEY. If it benefits the environment, then that is purely by accident.

[tutusue]

The environment ?????????????? :cool:

Sorry dude, I'm an economic right winger. I have all these technologies because I love to SAVE MONEY. If it benefits the environment, then that is purely by accident.
Wow, whatta selfish, albeit sad, statement, imnsho.

[matapule]

The environment ?????????????? :cool:

Sorry dude, I'm an economic right winger. I have all these technologies because I love to SAVE MONEY. If it benefits the environment, then that is purely by accident.

Sometimes, statements like these are better left without comment...they speak volumes unto themselves.

[Ron Whitfield]

...enjoy burning your lump of coal.

[matapule]

...enjoy burning your lump of coal.

Every Christmas has to have a Scrooge of some sort.

[joshuatree]

And Josh, the payoff on solar is about 7 years. There are no local codes that can lawfully prevent the use of solar power. The EV-1 sold a mere 1000 units in 7 years. If it was so great, why didn't consumers buy it??

I only went by your quote of 20+ years. My statement still stands at 7 years, some people simply don't think that long term. As for local codes, I did not say prevent, I only said codes can make the process of installing solar a pain. And I already said, GM did not sell the EV1, they only leased them. When they wanted them back for demolition, many of those who leased offered to buy them off GM's hands.

[Leo Lakio]

Even in disagreement, I've always given Tim credit for his honesty. He won't win popularity contests (or local elections), but wysiwyg.

[timkona]

I'm astonished.

If saving the environment results in saving lots of money, does it make a person bad if their motivation is to save, and the "accident" is that it's good for the environment??

And what is selfish about me spending my hard earned money such that it might benefit YOU in the long run? That is the Christmas Spirit.

Josh, my point was that Solar Electric Power has been perfectly useful, cost effective, easy to install, user friendly, reliable, etc for over 20 years. But consumers just don't drop the dime to have it. Think $$$, Kala, Greenbacks. Get it? I know it's hard for you hard core lefties to wrap your cranium around the idea of money.

And to bring us back on topic, the USA has one, and only one, major avenue for saving billions of dollars in a very short amount of time. That is Power Generation. Our grid is old and tired. Something must be done anyway.

Any Obama "New Deal" should include massive dollars for independent, point sourced, power generation solutions. Every building with panels. The grid is old fashioned anyway.

[joshuatree]

Josh, my point was that Solar Electric Power has been perfectly useful, cost effective, easy to install, user friendly, reliable, etc for over 20 years. But consumers just don't drop the dime to have it. Think $$$, Kala, Greenbacks. Get it? I know it's hard for you hard core lefties to wrap your cranium around the idea of money.

Hold up, just because I give you a few counterpoints, you categorize me as some hard core lefty? Your closed minded "my way or the highway" attitude makes you no better than the lefties you so despised. :rolleyes:

Even your statement is filled with assumptions.

Easy to install - by what definition? The actual installation process? For those not handy with tools, it's not easy to install. The bureaucratic process? For some, getting the permits or making sure the install qualifies for tax credits is considered too much hassle.

Cost effective and reliable? What if you're in an area where sunshine isn't always readily available? Of course, in Hawaii, that's not much of a problem but what about other places?

Not all technology revolutions is driven by consumers. The invention of the internet was a military project. The adoption of Blu-Ray was determined by having PS3 ship with a Blu-Ray player built-in, thereby establishing a standard through proliferation. Do consumers drive many things? Yes, but not absolutely as you paint it.

Btw Tim, I actually like to have solar but considering I rent, my landlord makes the call. As a consumer, I'm not getting to drive the issue.