Presidential debates

[Ron Whitfield]

Round 1 bell has rung.
Opening remarks from each candidate, pau.

[pzarquon]

It's interesting to watch real-time running commentary from everyday folks via the snazzy Twitter search page. Open up the #debate08 search page (http://election.twitter.com/topic?t=%23debate08) and listen to the debate at the same time. Collective commentary!

[MyopicJoe]

Thanks for the link, Pzarquon. I have to admit it's a bit creepy, but I suppose it's no different from a chat room.

[LikaNui]

As usual in presidential nominee debates, both people are making claims about the other that the other then denies. I'm looking forward to some of the fact checkers.
Is FactCheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/) the best source, or even a reliable source? Are there others, and are they better?

[Ron Whitfield]

Pretty much a dud for me.
Give a slight edge to JMc for driving the topics, whether or not he spoke truthfully, and keeping Obama on the defense for the most part.
The stage is now set for the fact checkers to lay it out. In another day we'll know who get's the bump.
NPR is mostly calling it a draw, and saying that a draw is a win for Obama.
I'm not so sure.

[TATTRAT]

Serious business. I think it was for the most part a draw, but I am still torn...well, not that torn, I am leaning for Obama, McCain seemed to doge some questions or just NOT answer and has too many "story time" moments.

I felt Obama did a great job of replying, staying on topic, and making valid points.

I am not 100% for or against either one. More then ever, this election will be about the lesser of two evils, and I will vote not to vote "for", but to vote against.

[LikaNui]

CNN is already doing some fact checking at this link (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/category/fact-check/).

[Frankie's Market]

Pretty much a dud for me.
Give a slight edge to JMc for driving the topics, whether or not he spoke truthfully, and keeping Obama on the defense for the most part.

If by "dud," you mean that neither candidate landed a knockout blow, that no major gaffe was committed, then yes, this first debate was not a turning point in the presidential race. It actually got boring at some points, like when McCain and Obama were going at each other when it came to the importance of establishing pre-conditions when it came to diplomatic negotiations with rogue states. I don't know if any of it will really resonate with voters.

Taken as a whole, I see this debate as coming out about even. Both candidates had their moments. And both campaigns have reasons to feel good about the debate result.

For McCain, the last couple of weeks have been rough for the GOP ticket, with his missteps on the economy and falling poll numbers. When he threatened not to show up for this debate, it had skeptics wondering if McCain was unprepared, running scared, and was using the economic crisis as a cover to skip the event. That he performed as well as he did tonight, even when it came to navigating the early questions on the economy,... one could reasonably state that McCain ended this tough week on a positive note and stemmed the recent momentum for the Obama campaign.

For Obama, he can feel good that he more than held his own in a debate that was primarily focused on foreign policy, which is supposed to be McCain's strength and selling point. And indeed, the conventional wisdom going into this first debate was that Obama didn't have to score a decisive victory over McCain when it came to matters of foreign policy and national security. In a year when the economy is in shambles and the vast majority of those polled feel that the country is in need of change, all Obama had to accomplish was to pass the minumum threshold where voters feel comfortable with him being the Commander-in-Chief. And I think he did just that.

So to conclude, while I think the debate (as a whole) has to be considered a draw, I think that it ultimately works out in Obama's favor that he came out with a tie on what was supposed to be McCain's home turf of foreign policy. The next presidential debate (Oct. 7) will be a town hall format. The third and final debate (Oct. 15) will focus on domestic policy, which likely plays into Obama's strength.

[tutusue]

[...] It actually got boring at some points, [...]
Pheeeeew!!!! So it wasn't just me?! About an hour into tonight's debate I became bored with the tit for tat banter so I took a shower after my day at the beach! :rolleyes:

[Walkoff Balk]

So, it's a zero-zero score after the first quarter. Was it good defense or bad offense?

[TATTRAT]

Pheeeeew!!!! So it wasn't just me?! About an hour into tonight's debate I became bored with the tit for tat banter so I took a shower after my day at the beach! :rolleyes:

you got tit for Tat? tutu, I never knew...:D

[LikaNui]

I agree that it was boring at times and that it was pretty much a draw. I think a draw in this case equals a slight win for Obama.
I was surprised to see this CNN poll from moments ago:

Who fared better in the first presidential debate?

Sen. John McCain... 28%... 31,232

Sen. Barack Obama... 67%... 75,592

Neither... 6%... 6,303

Total Votes: 113,127

:eek:

[tutusue]

you got tit for Tat? tutu, I never knew...:D
You didn't stick around long enough to find out! Your loss! :D

[Vanguard]

"I watched this at a bar tonight. The sound wasn't on, but I think I got the gist of it."

The only thing that caught my eye on the closed captioning was McCain's point about the troop surge working and Obama being wrong about Iraq. But of course, in this 90 minute debate, almost half of which was devoted to economy (thank you, MTV-like factoids on the screen), they didn't seem to get into other possibilities, like opposition waiting for the election to resume their activities, or the charges of ethnic cleansing (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080919/sc_nm/iraq_lights_dc), which I think are quite serious, and don't seem to get a whole lot of attention.

But of course, I am probably missing a lot of details. :D

[sansei]

:o hi this is sansei and in response to frankies market,i somewhat agree only obama himself said that mccain called him naive,i myself believe mccain is correct is when mccain pointed out that if obama were to pull the troop's out to quick,osama bin laden would try to get control of iraq and make them do his unkind work for him so i would vote mccain since he was a pow in Vietnam and he was in The vietnam war and he know's when to bring the troop's home and when to send them to afghanistan to get osama bin laden.

my vote after this debate will defenitely be for mccain and palin.

Well thank's for your time:o

[Frankie's Market]

I agree that it was boring at times and that it was pretty much a draw. I think a draw in this case equals a slight win for Obama.
I was surprised to see this CNN poll from moments ago:

Who fared better in the first presidential debate?

Sen. John McCain... 28%... 31,232

Sen. Barack Obama... 67%... 75,592

Neither... 6%... 6,303

Total Votes: 113,127

:eek:

Obama seems to be leading in most of these early polls, asking people who won the debate. I think a lot of it has to do with style over substance.

McCain spent almost the entire evening speaking at the camera. He almost never looked at Obama, even when responding to something his opponent is saying. McCain never directly talked to Obama, as moderator Lehrer encouraged both candidates to do in the beginning. While one might attribute this to McCain feeling uncomfortable in this setting, the fact that he kept saying that Obama "didn't understand" might have contributed to the perception that the Arizona senator was being condescending and dismissive of Obama. This was in sharp contrast to Obama, who looked at McCain throughout when listening to his counterpart and responding to something that was said. Obama also directly addressed McCain numerous times.

In a couple of weeks, both men will be engaged in a town hall setting for their next debate, which supposedly is a format that McCain is more comfortable in. Should be interesting. But first, the veep candidates go at it next Thursday in St. Louis. Being that this is the only veep debate, there will be no topic of focus. Anything goes.

[Vanguard]

First Presidential Debate scorecard (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7639103.stm)

[TATTRAT]

McCain spent almost the entire evening speaking at the camera. He almost never looked at Obama, even when responding to something his opponent is saying. McCain never directly talked to Obama, as moderator Lehrer encouraged both candidates to do in the beginning.

I found it to be quite the contrary, McCain talked more to Lehrer then the camera. I felt NO connection at all with his presentation. The fact he did not talk to Obama reminds me of a dog with his tail between his legs.

For someone of that age, and experience, to not be able to look someone in the eye and make a point, is a little discouraging. Just my opinion.

[matapule]

I have the following general comments about the debate.

1. I wanted the candidates to speak to me through the camera. Both spoke to Lehrer. I think they can best connect to the public by looking straight out of the TV at us. Nixon was a master of always knowing where the camera was.

2. Lehrer did his best to get them to answer the questions he posed. Both candidates had their talking points and wanted to get that information out rather than answer the question directly.

3. McCain refused to acknowledge the presence of Obama. I think this can be attributed to either a lack of respect, an insult that Obama is a person of no importance, or McCain is intimidated by Obama (which is what many behavioral scientists are say on the Internet today). They say that the rapidly blinking eye lids and refusal to look at his opponent is a sign of subservience and feeling intimidating.

4. Obama did look at McCain when addressing him. I thought by calling him the familiar, "John" he was trying to show he was willing to try to build consensus through dialog. However, many bloggers feel Obama was disrespectful by calling him John and "uppity.

5. It is my opinion that it was not good strategy for Obama to say, "You are right." Although, it shows that Obama is a nice guy and willing to concede when his opponent was correct, it also could be interpreted as being obsequious.

6. Although most polls this morning give Obama the edge, McCain did better than I thought he would.

[Vanguard]

Regarding 4 and 5, I've seen live (local) debates where the future winner of an election called his opponent by their first name and agreed with certain points they made in their debate. None of this seemed to stop their chances of winning the election.

[Peshkwe]

The first name thing came after the instruction to "talk to each other" came too. I wasn't bothered by it or thought Obama was disrespecting McCain, more that he was trying to do the conversational thing vs the formal thing.

Obama saying "you're right" to things he agreed with wasn't a bad thing. It showed the folks on the fence he wasn't totally against things of the opposition simply because it was the oppositions viewpoint. Shows he's more centrist than what the far right wants to paint him as.

[Peshkwe]

Here ya go, a highlight reel...it's saying Senator McCain then comes the 'talk to each other' then comes the first name thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1-zNYqW2i0

[matapule]

Time magazine writer, Mark Halperin, has graded the debate here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/gradingthefirstpresidentialdebate). It is an interesting read. It is just one person's opinion and could have been graded just the opposite by someone else. However, it appears that Halperin is in agreement with the morning after analyses (being the plural of analysis).

[timkona]

Somebody better check McCain's heartbeat. Deadpan, stoicism seems to be his MO, until he gets angry. That's what a lifetime of military training will do.

My view of McCain is unchanged. My view of Obama is slightly elevated. He held his own, factually speaking, and appeared confident in his answers. Obama is the best thing to ever happen to Punahou enrollment PR.

But the truth is, I feel like I'm watching a replay of the last election, where Bush and Kerry were BOTH not qualified to lead this nation.

I still can't believe that Dems ignored Bill Richardson. What gives? Wait, don't answer that. I don't want to be accused of hijacking another thread.

[Frankie's Market]

3. McCain refused to acknowledge the presence of Obama. I think this can be attributed to either a lack of respect, an insult that Obama is a person of no importance, or McCain is intimidated by Obama (which is what many behavioral scientists are say on the Internet today). They say that the rapidly blinking eye lids and refusal to look at his opponent is a sign of subservience and feeling intimidating.

4. Obama did look at McCain when addressing him. I thought by calling him the familiar, "John" he was trying to show he was willing to try to build consensus through dialog. However, many bloggers feel Obama was disrespectful by calling him John and "uppity.

These 2 observations interwine with each other. Note that Obama used "John" only when directly talking to McCain, not when he was addressing the audience. The fact that you never heard McCain say "Barack" is because he never once talked to his fellow senator. Since the debate rules allowed (and the moderator even encouraged) both senators to talk to each other when it came time to respond to answers and to ask each other questions, who's really being disrespectful here? Seems to me that by not acknowledging Obama's presence while at the podium, McCain was not according Obama the proper courtesy and respect.

And any blogger who would use the word "uppity" in reference to Sen. Obama,.... that alone says a lot about the blogger and his/her views on race. Uppity is used to describe someone who supposedly doesn't know his proper place in the world. Since that word has often been used in the past to denigrate and demean African-Americans, it does carry racial connotations, whether the blogger intended it or not. No journalist or talking head on TV (well, maybe with the exception of Michelle Malkin) would dare use uppity in reference to any racial minority, or they're going to be mercilessly hammered and criticized from every quarter.

[matapule]

Uppity is used to describe someone who supposedly doesn't know his proper place in the world.

Exactly, it is a code word used by racists, in particular about black people who don't know their place. I guess they feel Obama should address him as, "Massa McCain, Suh." Racism is going to play a bigger part in the campaigning as the election gets closer IMO.

[Vanguard]

Exactly, it is a code word used by racists, in particular about black people who don't know their place. I guess they feel Obama should address him as, "Massa McCain, Suh." Racism is going to play a bigger part in the campaigning as the election gets closer IMO.

It's actually been used by US Representative Lynn Westmoreland (R-GA). (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/05/westmoreland-uppity/)

[timkona]

Uppity is a great example of a word whose meaning has morphed over the years, due to social realities, such that the majority of speakers would now cower from the use of the word so as not to appear racist. Uppity has become the first half of a statement (you all know the 2nd half) used throughout the Jim Crow south.

Uppity is also a descriptive word, having nothing to do whatsoever with the racial connotation. I am certain that I could possibly be described as 'uppity' by my fellow HT'ers, God bless'em one and all. Obama, with a Punahou/Harvard pedigree, could prolly be fairly called uppity, regardless of color.

I will choose the road away from racism.

[Ron Whitfield]

CNN has a poll showing out of 524 polled -
51 - 38% thot BO did better than JMc overall
58 - 37% thot BO did better on the economy
52 - 47% thot BO did better on the war

Next week, the fun one - Palin VS Biden

[matapule]

with a Punahou/Harvard pedigree,

Actually via Occidental College in Pasadena, a place near and dear to me. Go Tigers!

[TuNnL]

Obama, with a Punahou/Harvard pedigree, could prolly be fairly called uppity, regardless of color.Both my brother and sister as well as my childhood best friend graduated from Punahou. I don’t consider any of them “uppity.”

[Ron Whitfield]

Take out the racist ref in uppity, and BO is indeed uppity. So what? He's not a prick.
But when the term is used by a republican about a black person, it certainly smells really bad.

[Peshkwe]

'Uppity woman' - usually meant she was gonna catch a fist
'Uppity n*****' - usually meant someone was gonna catch a noose.

from the Etymology dictionary...

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=uppity

uppity

1880, from up; originally used by blacks of other blacks felt to be too self-assertive (first recorded use is in "Uncle Remus"). The parallel British variant uppish (1678) originally meant "lavish;" the sense of "conceited, arrogant" being first recorded 1734.

[Frankie's Market]

Obama, with a Punahou/Harvard pedigree, could prolly be fairly called uppity, regardless of color.

On what basis would Obama be called "uppity," if not for his race? Just the fact that he graduated from Punahou and Harvard? Does that make everyone who graduated from those schools uppity? (JFK graduated from Harvard. I've never heard about him ever being referred to as being uppity.) Is Obama uppity for managing to graduate from an Ivy League school, despite coming from a background where his father was never around and was raised for many years by his grandparents?

I don't buy into the thinking that uppity is simply another word for "overachiever." Even if you take race out of the equation, it is never a word that is used in a complimentary sense. If a wealthy/prominent person called you uppity, it would imply that person thinks you don't belong in his social class. If a poor person called you uppity, that person is implying that you are stuck up and acting above your station in life. Either way it is used, uppity is an insult and it casts a person as being an outsider.

[matapule]

Take out the racist ref in uppity, and BO is indeed uppity.

In what sense is he uppity? I've never thought of him that way. He seems to me to be a nice guy (perhaps too nice to be President), intelligent, thoughtful, decent, and a dedicated family man. He appears to me to be a guy I'd like to sit down and have a beer with and talk about stuff. I can't say the same about McCain.

[tutusue]

When I was growing up "uppity" meant snobbish; someone who looked down his/her nose at others; someone who felt superior to others. It had no racial connotation whatsoever. I see BO as classy; someone who would never lower himself by referring to his wife as the "C" word.

Good grief...even I'm getting tired of referring to the "C" bomb. All of you must be tired of reading about it! :o

[Ron Whitfield]

I use the term in BO's case in the least intense manner posible. But he does have an aire of aloofness, but not to a degree that I have a problem with, and I believe it comes from a sense that is protectionist, not condesending. A black in the position he has put himself, would probably need a certain amount to counter, at least within themselves, a lot of the negative nay bombs that will certainly come their way. Using it kinda like water off a ducks back. I give him credit for the classy manner in which he carries himself thru all this silliness.

[Adri]

Why do I have to work tomorrow? I know the debate will rerun (perhaps ad nauseum) but still...

[Frankie's Market]

Tuesday's debate is going to be a town meeting format, moderated by NBC's Tom Brokaw.

One topic that will be talked about for sure: health care. McCain's senior policy advisor (the same clown who earlier said McCain invented the Blackberry) admits that his boss plans to pay for his proposed health care plan by cutting Medicare and Medicaid funding by $1.3 trillion.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122315505846605217.html?mod=special_page_campaig n2008_mostpop

I thought that McCain's Herbert Hooveresque "The fundamentals of the economy are strong" was the most boneheaded gaffe of this presidential campaign, but announcing such drastic cuts to Medicare/Medicaid comes awfully close to topping it. I swear. McCain shooting himself in the foot like this does infinitely more damage than does two weeks worth of negative ads from Obama's campaign.

[Adri]

I would be interested in hearing how he is going to cut more about Medicare and Medicaid. As of October 1, 2008, pursuant to the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005, Medicare will no longer cover "reasonably preventable events" ~ conditions acquired while in a hospital that Medicare deems should not happen such as bedsores, urinary tract infections, wrong blood transfusions, staph infections. In a parallel, Medicaid does not cover "never events" ~ things that Medicaid deems should never happen in a hospital. The administration says that the elimination of payments to the hospitals for these illnesses or conditions will encourage the hospitals to be more careful and to avoid these illness or conditions occurring. Also per the DRA, there is supposed to be a tightening of the requirements to qualify for Medicaid. All jurisidictions had one complete legislative cycle to meet the federal requirements of the DRA and we missed our deadline. However, it *is* coming because federal law trumps state law. Right now, if someone who wants to apply for Medicaid long term care owns one home and reasonably expects to return home (assuming the person meets the other qualifications for Medicaid), the home is an exempt asset for purposes of qualifying for Medicaid. Once the DRA kicks in, if the home, even if it's just one home, is worth more than $500,000 or $750,000 (the state gets to pick which level and we haven't officially picked yet), the home will no longer be exempt. Given the property values in Hawaii, it's entirely possible not to be rich but to still have a home worth more than $500,000 or $750,000.

eta: I guess my point is that the DRA has already made cuts into Medicaid and Medicare much beyond what I am describing here. I'm not saying that government programs should never tighten up but I am honestly wondering how McCain plans to do that with these two programs.

[matapule]

I will be tuning in tonight. I have made up a McCain Bingo card with, Vietnam, POW, maverick, Rev. Wright, campaign on hold, Ayers, he's not one of us, fundamentals of economy are strong, gotcha journalism, lipstick on a pig, 26 years in the Senate, mud slinging, raise taxes, and an automatic card blackout for the "C" word!

Actually, I want to see if McCain starts winking at the camera. Seriously, those of you who are supporting Palin/McCain, how would you feel if McCain (or Obama for that matter) started winking seductively at the camera? Would you say that person was a serious contender for President or Vice President?

This should be good, worth another bottle of wine I guess that the conservative pundits will say tomorrow morning, if McCain didn't implode in the debate, then he "won."

[turtlegirl]

Presidential Debate Games!!!

I know of two....First we have Presidential Debate Bingo (http://www.bullshitbingo.net/cards/presidential_debate/). That's the one I'll be playing. And here's another version (http://www.neatorama.com/2007/10/25/presidential-debate-bingo/) of bingo.

Here's the NPR's (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95048695) recommendations for Debate watching fun.

Also, the ever classic drinking games...Here's one! (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-nelson/the-presidential-debate-d_b_129609.html) My favorite part of that one says - "Every time John McCain says "my friends", spit out your drink and shout "I am not your friend" at the television."

Here's Comedy Central's version (http://blog.indecision2008.com/2008/09/25/the-presidential-debate-drinking-game/)of the PDDG.

Those drinking games are way beyond my liquor cabinet means, by the way, so I'll be drinking beer like all the other Joe Six Packs of America. And playing bingo.


;) Maverick. ;)

[turtlegirl]

This should be good, worth another bottle of wine I guess that the conservative pundits will say tomorrow morning, if McCain didn't implode in the debate, then he "won."

I hope to see John McCain red-faced, spluttering, raging and ranting, cursing and complaining, looking like an infant whose bottle was taken away before the end of the debate. That's a win in my book.

[Peshkwe]

I expect him to pull a 'Renfield' with his creepy snicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9lypLg5evs&feature=related

[tutusue]

Thanks for the game links, TG! Dang, I have a dr. appt. after the debate. Guess I'll be sticking to bingo!

[Ron Whitfield]

Now I gotta clean my computer and monitor after reading your posts.
Too friggin' funny damnit!

[Peshkwe]

Whoa...there were six million questions submitted!

[Vanguard]

"I got some news for you, Senator Obama. The news is BAD!"

McCain should have raised both his arms at the end and added "Oogedy Boogedy!"

[Peshkwe]

~WOOT~!!!

I got a 'Renfield'!

[Ron Whitfield]

I think we've already hit the 6 mil mark with the 'my friends' JMc quote.

[Peshkwe]

So anyone do a jaw torque with the "That one" reference to Obama?

Ya hear that dogwhistle?

[tutusue]

~WOOT~!!!

I got a 'Renfield'!
...and another one!

[Ron Whitfield]

I was pretty sure he said that as well!

The guy's a real work of art.

[Peshkwe]

...and another one!

Heeheeheeheeeeee

[Peshkwe]

I was pretty sure he said that as well!

The guy's a real work of art.

Yup wouldn't even look at the man either as he tossed that word bomb.

[Marco]

Interesting debate. Obama took a while to get going but I think he owned it once he got comfortable. His body language was terrific.

McCain did better than I thought (and hoped) he would. Was waiting for something to set him off but he managed to keep it together pretty well. Was hoping to hear him talk about being a maverick and his mavericky ways for a good laugh or three, but I guess that's what Palin's for.

At best, a draw for McCain. Refusing to shake Obama's hand at the end made him look really petty, IMO.

[Peshkwe]

I think it's those petty actions and the snarks that will do McCain in more so than the non-answer talking point speak.

The 'that one' and the refusal to shake hands is gonna be eaten up like candy to the racists out there...same as Palin's little innuendos she's been playing at that's recently caused a black cameraman to be called the n-bomb and shouted st to 'sit down BOY!'

[Vanguard]

The 'that one' and the refusal to shake hands is gonna be eaten up like candy to the racists out there...

You know who else refused to shake hands with an African American competitor?

Yeah, I went there.

And yeah, I know it's a myth (http://hnn.us/articles/571.html). :D

GODWIN! AWEIGH!

[Ron Whitfield]

I missed that one. Where/when did that 'boy' remark happen?

[Peshkwe]

I missed that one. Where/when did that 'boy' remark happen?

I have a feeling it'll be played over often in various shows, but it was when they were talking about the energy stuff.


Ooo...CNN is FAST!

Here's the transcripts:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/07/presidential.debate.transcript/

[Peshkwe]

Gah...wrong remark referance...doh!

Here's the 'boy' thing:

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2008/10/palin_supporters_errupt_into_r.php

Hitting the Arab news isn't good either, even if it is feed stuff:

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=115235&d=8&m=10&y=2008

[LikaNui]

Less than an hour after the debate ended, and the CNN.com poll shows:

Who fared better in today's presidential debate?

Sen. John McCain... 15%... 11,475

Sen. Barack Obama... 82%... 63,880

No clear winner... 4%... 2,734

Total Votes: 78,089

Wow! That's one helluva big margin. It'll be interesting to see what other polls show in the morning.
McCain somewhat desperately needed some kind of home run hit and it didn't happen. Instead, at times he kinda seemed like a doddering old grandpa out there. Does he have the stamina and energy to be president for possibly 8 years, at which time he'll be 80 years old?
Nope.

[Vanguard]

John McCain left the building real quick. I thought he liked Town Hall meetings?

[matapule]

Well, we decided not to play Debate Bingo tonight and decided to toast each other and drink a glass of wine every time McCain said "my friends." At this point, I am soooooooooo wasted! So I'll kedp this short.

In my opinion these are the highlights, and I will paraphrase.

O'bama's best moment when asked about how to fix the econommy, JFK said we were gpoinng to put a man on the moon. He didn't know how we were going to do it, the American people didn't know how we were going to do it, but he inspired the American people and we did it. Those were powerful words to me. I lived through that era. I was inspired by JFK. Obama inspired me.

McCain's best moment was a question about putting sanctions on the Russians, he said if he said yes it would start another cold war, if he said no, it would give license to the russians, so the answer was maybe. I thought he gave a bettert answer than Obama, one that made sense to me.

The lowest of the low points, first when McCain called Obama "that one" and then at the end of the debate when Obama reached out to shake McCains hand and McCain turned away, so Obama shook cindy McCain's hand insted. McCain is despicable!!!!!!

The high point was when Obama andhis wife stuck around after the debate was over to work the crowd. Now THAT is campaigning!

Good night.

[Walkoff Balk]

John McCain left the building real quick. I thought he liked Town Hall meetings?
Elvis, I mean John McCain has left the building.

[timkona]

Obama will invade Pakistan's borders, AGAINST THEIR PERMISSION, and will say it outloud.
McCain will keep the whole thing a secret. And you might not know. And that is the best answer. ;)

McCain has military experience. Some think we are in a war. 1 point for McCain for anybody who honestly believes we are in a war. Even die-hard Libs.

Obama surfs. Yup, I said it. And I surf too. And you should surf too. No matter how old you are. I know some guys over 70 who still paddle out. 4 bonus points. I betcha McCain doesn't surf. :rolleyes:

What about Cocktail Hour? Who would you rather sip a cold one with? Pretty clear to me that McCain wins this one all the way. He almost has a Gin Blossom like Teddy K. Yup I said it. Please get me a beer while you are in the kitchen. :cool:

Both guys support Israel. With military dilegence, effort and firepower. I'm for that too.

The DU thinks the "old guy" would be the best choice after watching the debate. I made her watch it. She hated it. She's smarter than all of us. 3 points for McSame.

At this point, it's damn near a toss-up. I pick McCain and Biden. Together.

[Frankie's Market]

The lowest of the low points, first when McCain called Obama "that one" and then at the end of the debate when Obama reached out to shake McCains hand and McCain turned away, so Obama shook cindy McCain's hand insted. McCain is despicable!!!!!!

The high point was when Obama andhis wife stuck around after the debate was over to work the crowd. Now THAT is campaigning!

I had to attend a function earlier tonight, so I'll have to catch a replay later.

Until I actually watch it, I obviously can't comment on the substance. But it sure sounds like McCain came out on the short end when it came to style for the second straight debate. And this, in a town hall format where McCain is supposedly strong in.

Disrespecting Obama and quickly leaving the Town Hall,... man, I thought it was bad enough when George H.W. Bush was caught looking at his watch twice at a town hall debate against Clinton in '92. But this tops it.

McCain's handlers had better make sure they keep him far away from any piece of rope. If he gets his hands on one, McCain will invariably end up hanging himself.

[LikaNui]

From CNN's Political Ticker (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/07/cnn-poll-obama-won-the-night/) (which is different than their online poll that I quoted a few posts above this one):

By CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser

A national poll of debate watchers suggests that Barack Obama won the second presidential debate.

Fifty-four percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey conducted after the debate ended said that Obama did the best job in the debate, with 30 percent saying John McCain performed better.
A majority, 54 percent, said Obama seemed to be the stronger leaderduring the debate, to 43 percent for McCain.
By a greater than two to one margin — 65 percent to 28 percent — viewers thought Obama was more likeable during the debate.

"Obama had made some gains on the leadership issue even before the debate," said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "McCain's advantage on leadership shrunk from 19 points in September to just five points this weekend. If Obama can use this debate to convince Americans that he is a stronger leader than McCain, he may be difficult to defeat."

A majority of debate watchers polled thought Obama was more intelligent, by a 57 percent to 25 percent margin over McCain.
Twice as many debate watchers also thought Obama more clearly expressed than McCain, with 60 percent giving the nod to the Democratic nominee and 30 percent to his GOP opponent.
Hands down, debate watchers questioned thought McCain rather than Obama spent more time attacking his opponent: 63 percent said McCain went more negative, as opposed to 17 percent who pointed to Obama.
Half of those polled say Obama answered questions more directly, 13 points ahead of McCain.
By a 14 point advantage debate watchers thought Obama seemed to care more about the probelms of audience members who asked questions.
McCain did come out on top in one category that neither candidate wants to win: By a 16 point margin, debate watchers thought McCain seemed more like a typical politician during the debate.
According to the poll, 64 percent had a favorable opinion of Obama after the debate, up four points from the pre-debate result. McCain’s favorability rating remained unchanged: both before and after the debate percent of those polled had a favorable opinion of the Republican nominee both before and after the debate.

(...)


The poll suggests that independent voters thought Obama won the debate. Fifty-four percent of those identifying themselves as independent say Obama performed best, with 28 percent saying that McCain did the better job.
Among Democrats, 85 percent say Obama won, with just 5 percent saying McCain was the winner.
Among Republicans, 64 percent say McCain won, with 16 percent saying Obama won the night.


The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll was conducted by telephone with 675 adult Americans who watched the debate. All interviews were taken after the end of the debate. The audience for this debate was 38 percent Democratic and 31 percent Republican — very close to the partisan breakdown among all Americans nationwide. The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 4 percentage points.

[Marco]

I think it's those petty actions and the snarks that will do McCain in more so than the non-answer talking point speak.

The 'that one' and the refusal to shake hands is gonna be eaten up like candy to the racists out there...same as Palin's little innuendos she's been playing at that's recently caused a black cameraman to be called the n-bomb and shouted st to 'sit down BOY!'

Yeah, "That one" and the handshake snub won't help his cause. It almost seems physically impossible for McCain not to appear arrogant and condescending and it's evident in his negative body language and facial expressions/responses. IMO, I thought he addressed certain points better and had clearer proposals than Barack, but in debates, appearances do matter and the media is going to have a field day tomorrow. I can't wait to watch the Daily Show and see what Jon Stewart has in store...

Barack did much better in hitting back than in their first debate, where he seemed to agree with everything McCain said, and I thought he killed it on health care and foreign policy and was also much better on the economy.

[Peshkwe]

Cancel that no handshake bit, they did handshake and even did the guy 'shoulder hug' thing. It was just really quick and miss-able:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K_MKwVBZRY&feature=related

[Peshkwe]

CNN has the whole debate up with a running transcript at the side:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/07/video.transcript/index.html

Kinda cool, but at 90:50 time (or there about) you can see McCain cross over into Tom Brokaw's camera shot...that's probably where the chest bump hug happened and wasn't picked up by CNN's camera crew.

Wonder which network was the one that caught it?

[matapule]

According to the viewers on Faux News:

Who won the debate?

McCain 86%
Obama 12%
undecided 1%

http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1075.gif

[Leo Lakio]

What about Cocktail Hour? Who would you rather sip a cold one with? Pretty clear to me that McCain wins this one all the way. He almost has a Gin Blossom like Teddy K. Yup I said it. Please get me a beer while you are in the kitchen. :cool:Yeah, who would you rather drink with --- that one earned us eight years of Dubya.
Yeah, "That one" and the handshake snub won't help his cause. It almost seems physically impossible for McCain not to appear arrogant and condescending and it's evident in his negative body language and facial expressions/responses.Ah, for the days when the candidate's stands on issues and plans for their term in office were the factors the American Public used for choosing how to vote.

But, no - now we worry about who snubbed who, who we'd rather drink with (like any of us here expects to be imbibing with the POTUS at our neighborhood tavern any time soon), who can best flirt with foreign leaders ...

The American political structure is a joke, a shell of what it used to be, and a flashing-neon-sign obvious reflection of our nation's stumbling, decrepit, corrupt and well-past-its-prime place in today's world.

[Marco]

Ah, for the days when the candidate's stands on issues and plans for their term in office were the factors the American Public used for choosing how to vote.

But, no - now we worry about who snubbed who, who we'd rather drink with (like any of us here expects to be imbibing with the POTUS at our neighborhood tavern any time soon), who can best flirt with foreign leaders ...

The American political structure is a joke, a shell of what it used to be, and a flashing-neon-sign obvious reflection of our nation's stumbling, decrepit, corrupt and well-past-its-prime place in today's world.

As I said in my previous post, in a debate, appearances matter and by all accounts, McCains was not good and it could and likely will draw a negative reaction from the general public. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I can tell. As I also said, I thought McCain did a better job than I expected in the debate and illustrated his proposals well, but that I felt Barack won by hitting back on several issues that he let slide in the last debate: foreign policy, "not tipping his hand", the economy, etc.

But way to play the martyr and cherry-pick what I said into some inference that my criteria for deciding who to vote for solely lies in a perceived handshake snub and has nothing to do with issues whatsoever. Can you even see us peons from way up high on that perch you put yourself?

[Ron Whitfield]

Big fat newsflash for Tim, we've been in Pakistan many times in the last few years and are currently there now, against their permission.

And, oh, how I'd love to sit with John McCain for a cold one and see how he enjoys his drink, without teeth.

I wonder if JMc will want to 'postpone' next week's debate.
He could use a lifeline right now. Maybe he'd like to phone Lieberman.

[1stwahine]

John McCain's Rage is a National Security Concern.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAyK-enrF1g

Do something....VOTE.;)

Auntie Lynn

[Frankie's Market]

Ah, for the days when the candidate's stands on issues and plans for their term in office were the factors the American Public used for choosing how to vote.

Going back to what days? Maybe a bit farther back than you realize.

Is it just our generation that grades politicians on the visual, superficial aspects? It might surprise you to learn that on the first 1960 presidential debate between Kennedy and Nixon, many radio listeners thought that Nixon had the upper hand. But the reaction was just the opposite for TV viewers, who thought JFK decisively won it. I don't think it was a coincidence that you had such contrasting results with the fact that Nixon flunked the visuals when it came to his televised debate preperation. (Having a 5 o'clock shadow and wearing a suit that blended with the background, diminishing his physical presence in comparison to his opponent.) And Leo, we're talking about 1960. This was at a time when even the Baby Boomer generation wasn't old enough to vote yet!

No, voters basing their decisions on factors relating to style over substance goes way, WAY back.

The American political structure is a joke, a shell of what it used to be, and a flashing-neon-sign obvious reflection of our nation's stumbling, decrepit, corrupt and well-past-its-prime place in today's world.

Our country and political system has gone through a lot of ups and downs over the years. But I, for one, still believe in the fundamental structure of the govt. our founding fathers gave us, with its systems of checks and balances.

And before anyone joins Leo in yearning for the "good ole days" of politics, may I suggest that one looks at the tremendous impact that Sen. Joseph McCarthy had on national politics from 1950-1954 with his Red Scare tactics. The Wisconsin senator was a master at exploiting the press with his ability to generate headlines, making startling and sweeping charges of govt. officials being Communist sympathizers, going all the way up to the even the highest levels. (Secretary of State Dean Acheson was not safe from McCarthy's accusations.) All the while that he kept the Truman administration in turmoil, McCarthy's much-publicized witchhunt was never able to uncover a single confirmed Communist working in government. Talk about the ultimate politics of distraction. And this, happening more than 50 years ago. Was this the "golden age" of politics? Uh huh. :rolleyes:

[Adri]

According to the viewers on Faux News:

Who won the debate?

McCain 86%
Obama 12%
undecided 1%

http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1075.gif

Odd, that's not what their website says (assuming I am right in which news source you mean :D) Even their website has Obama ahead 59%-41% (although the numbers do seem to be getting closer together as time passes)

[Leo Lakio]

But way to play the martyr and cherry-pick what I said into some inference that my criteria for deciding who to vote for solely lies in a perceived handshake snub and has nothing to do with issues whatsoever. Can you even see us peons from way up high on that perch you put yourself?Chill, dude. I just grabbed one of the most recent comments that fits a long and ongoing criterion, and it wouldn't have mattered who wrote it. Don't be so quick on the defensive; it's not all about you (unless you're running for office, then of course, it is about you - and you just lost points for style, by your own assessment). :p
It might surprise you to learn that on the first 1960 presidential debate between Kennedy and Nixon, many radio listeners thought that Nixon had the upper hand. But the reaction was just the opposite for TV viewers, who thought JFK decisively won it. I don't think it was a coincidence that you had such contrasting results with the fact that Nixon flunked the visuals when it came to his televised debate preperation. (Having a 5 o'clock shadow and wearing a suit that blended with the background, diminishing his physical presence in comparison to his opponent.) And Leo, we're talking about 1960. This was at a time when even the Baby Boomer generation wasn't old enough to vote yet! Surprise me? No - I was alive at that time (though a little too young to have much interest in politics, at least for another five years or so).
And before anyone joins Leo in yearning for the "good ole days" of politics,Sorry - I should have emphasized the sarcasm better. Politics has been an ugly business for a very, very long time - and certainly not just American politics.

But I think you understood my primary point anyway (unlike Marco) - we still discuss too much of the superficial, while Rome burns around us.

[Vanguard]

Conservatives Call Obama’s Correct Pronounciation Of Pakistan ‘Exotic’ And ‘Annoying’ (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/08/obama-pakistan/)

I'm wondering if these same conservatives use the "libary" pronunciation?

[Marco]

Chill, dude. I just grabbed one of the most recent comments that fits a long and ongoing criterion, and it wouldn't have mattered who wrote it. Don't be so quick on the defensive; it's not all about you (unless you're running for office, then of course, it is about you - and you just lost points for style, by your own assessment). :p

When you quote my post then bemoan that voters are choosing who to vote for based on style not substance, then it seems blatantly transparent that you're including me in that group. And I'm perfectly justified in defending myself, without being subjected to the counter-argument that I'm being defensive and it's "not all about you". Which frankly, is about the dumbest argument ever.



But I think you understood my primary point anyway (unlike Marco) - we still discuss too much of the superficial, while Rome burns around us.
Zing! Another passive-aggressive dig! Congrats!

[Leo Lakio]

Conservatives Call Obama’s Correct Pronounciation Of Pakistan ‘Exotic’ And ‘Annoying’Is that anything like an NPR commentator calling Hawai`i "exotic?" Is that a word that will keep finding itself attached to Sen. Obama?I'm wondering if these same conservatives use the "libary" pronunciation?Just as long as they don't start a "new-cue-lar" war.

[Leo Lakio]

When you quote my post then bemoan that voters are choosing who to vote for based on style not substance, then it seems blatantly transparent that you're including me in that group. And I'm perfectly justified in defending myself, without being subjected to the counter-argument that I'm being defensive and it's "not all about you". Which frankly, is about the dumbest argument ever.Wow. Sorry you're having such a personal image problem. Hope your day improves - and gets back on topic.

[Marco]

Wow. Sorry you're having such a personal image problem. Hope your day improves - and gets back on topic.
lol

what a joke

[Ron Whitfield]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euu_DMhsXQo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euu_DMhsXQo)

[1stwahine]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euu_DMhsXQo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euu_DMhsXQo)

C...T:p :)

[Walkoff Balk]

Both candidates didn't take their gloves off. I guess they listen to the rule of "No glove, No love."

[matapule]

Conservatives Call Obama’s Correct Pronounciation Of Pakistan ‘Exotic’ And ‘Annoying’ (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/08/obama-pakistan/)

I'm wondering if these same conservatives use the "libary" pronunciation?

They "prolly" do.

[Ron Whitfield]

US air strike in Pakistan kills 9 - www.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan (http://www.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan)

[Vanguard]

Debate Questioner indeed knew about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/09/1523335.aspx??34)

[Vanguard]

Obama in the dressing room before and after debate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt_TnQqkVyk)

[Walkoff Balk]

Is McCain a Maverick or the Wanderer by walking around on stage?

[Ron Whitfield]

McCain is down! McCain is down!
Obama just walked over and cold-cocked JMc and he's out!

[tutusue]

All Obama has to do is take the high road and not lower himself to McCain's level. McCain is capable of cold-cocking himself.

[turtlegirl]

Aww, man! I was so busy with my taxes that I forgot to print out my Presidential Debate Bingo cards! Meh, still got the popcorn and beer...:D

PS - I HATE McClown, and he is doing pretty badly tonight, so, yay!!

PPS - Whoever called Sarah Palin a "sock puppet" - that was hilarious!!!!

PPPS - 'Joe the Plumber' just called me - he hates McC---, too.

[Vanguard]

Joe the Plumber! Joe the Plumber! JOE THE PLUMBER! ARRRRGGGG!

Colin Powell Set To Endorse Obama (http://poligazette.com/2008/10/16/report-colin-powell-set-to-endorse-obama/)

[Peshkwe]

Why does McCain go on about autism in regards to Palin when she has a downs child?

[TATTRAT]

awesome, for real, I think they both did ok, but in the end, I am still with Obama.

McCain was kept( as seems to be par)on the defense, he stumbled far more, and was less collected then Obama.

[tutusue]

Why does McCain go on about autism in regards to Palin when she has a downs child?
'Cuz he doesn't know the difference and it was blaring! I was embarrassed for him. And, Sarah Palin doesn't know "all too well"...yet.

[Vanguard]

"you want to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago" -- it sounds like Senator McCain's been waiting a very long time to use that one.

[Peshkwe]

'Cuz he doesn't know the difference and it was blaring! I was embarrassed for him. And, Sarah Palin doesn't know "all too well"...yet.


He should have stuck with a generic 'special needs' meme.





Here are the transcripts for the debate:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/15/debate.transcript/index.html

[Peshkwe]

I wonder if this is gonna annoy families with special needs kids:

And I just said to you earlier, town hall meeting after town hall meeting, parents come with kids, children -- precious children who have autism. Sarah Palin knows about that better than most. And we'll find and we'll spend the money, research, to find the cause of autism. And we'll care for these young children. And all Americans will open their wallets and their hearts to do so.


Palin has dealt with a special needs child all of 5 months? Trig is still easy to deal with, he still a little blanket bug. Palin has absolutely no idea what it's like to deal for years with a child with special needs, what it's like to deal with reactions from the 'normal' people who (as youtube shows) can get real ignorant.

She knows better than the moms, dads, grandparents, uncles and aunties what it's like?





C'mon....that's just flippin insulting.

[tutusue]

He should have stuck with a generic 'special needs' meme.[...]
I'm surprised he wasn't advised to do that. Then, again, maybe he was and it just didn't stick. Still, I think you and I, Peshkwe, are sensitive to those terms and their lack of interchangeability (is there such a word?!) because we each have special needs children in our families. The term "special needs" is much more appropriate and much more inclusive.
I wonder if this is gonna annoy families with special needs kids:
[...]
Palin has dealt with a special needs child all of 5 months? [...]
She knows better than the moms, dads, grandparents, uncles and aunties what it's like?[...]
Exactly...and it annoyed the h3!! outta me (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showpost.php?p=213042&postcount=97).

[Peshkwe]

What bugged me is that it seemed like only the birth type special needs kids were counting because of their whole anti abortion thing.

SN kids aren't coming from just from genetic anomalies but from other causes as well....it bugged me 'cause just this year a net friend's boy just passed at 13. His epilepsy and brain damage was caused from lack of oxygen at birth, then later expounded on by getting nearly killed by a necrotic bowl which took away more of his cognitive ability and any motor skills he had achieved...his seizures were so bad he snapped his own femur last year.

This is part of what he wrote on the forum we both visited.

I love him dearly and will miss him terribly, but he has now gone onto a better place. Wherever this journey of life continues on after death on this rock, I truly believe he is whole and healthy now and at peace.

His struggle here had finally become too much.
Selfishly though, I feel l wish he had not chosen to go yet, and feel lessened without him.

He did teach his lessons well though. I too will persevere and win through the day.

This Daddy knows a hell of a lot more than Palin does presently (she'll learn tho) or McCain and the machine behind him ever will by using that baby boy as a political tool.

[Ron Whitfield]

Did McCain actually say that military personel could become teachers with no training?

[Peshkwe]

Here is what he said:

McCain: Well, it's the civil rights issue of the 21st century. There's no doubt that we have achieved equal access to schools in America after a long and difficult and terrible struggle.

But what is the advantage in a low income area of sending a child to a failed school and that being your only choice?

So choice and competition amongst schools is one of the key elements that's already been proven in places in like New Orleans and New York City and other places, where we have charter schools, where we take good teachers and we reward them and promote them.

And we find bad teachers another line of work. And we have to be able to give parents the same choice, frankly, that Sen. Obama and Mrs. Obama had and Cindy and I had to send our kids to the school -- their kids to the school of their choice.

Charter schools aren't the only answer, but they're providing competition. They are providing the kind of competitions that have upgraded both schools -- types of schools.

Now, throwing money at the problem is not the answer. You will find that some of the worst school systems in America get the most money per student.

So I believe that we need to reward these good teachers.

We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which -- or have the certification that some are required in some states.

Look, we must improve education in this country. As far as college education is concerned, we need to make those student loans available. We need to give them a repayment schedule that they can meet. We need to have full student loan program for in-state tuition. And we certainly need to adjust the certain loan eligibility to inflation.

soo....yup he did.

[Ron Whitfield]

Well, I guess all that killin people in Iraq and Afghanistan will come in handy after all...

[Peshkwe]

Here's the Troops to Teachers site with how it currently works:

http://www.ed.gov/programs/troops/index.html

[timkona]

To Ron, et al,

It is not the killin' that molds soldiers into likely candidates for teaching. It is the discipline, structure, customary learning, and positive attitude with good moral, that molds youngsters into potentially good candidates for academia.

Your "W" biased opinion of the military, salted with memories of Vietnam, have blinded you to the #1 avenue for education/achievement/life training in the world. Trust me, when Stanford discovers something REALLY COOL, the military takes over. And then, the only way to learn about the cutting edge is in the military. Ranking Academia absolutely hates this simple fact.

Happiness and a can do attitude must be taught, and than practiced regularly. They are both good lessons. And they will always lead to a long term positive self image.

In this vein, it is obvious why John McCain is a fine choice to lead the nation.

Tonight I listened to the debate on radio in the car. And even my lib friend thought McCain had a better, nicer speaking voice, with more tonality and personality, that Obama.

Remember the Nixon/Kennedy debates? On TV.

[tutusue]

[...]
Tonight I listened to the debate on radio in the car. And even my lib friend thought McCain had a better, nicer speaking voice, with more tonality and personality, that Obama.[...]
I felt the debate was somewhat of a draw with McCain having a stronger first half and Obama having a stronger second half. I've already voiced one of my main objections above. I watched the debate on CNN where they had a split screen going quite a bit of the time. It was interesting to watch each candidate's reaction as the other was speaking. Even the CNN analysts felt McCain hurt his chances with his negative facial reactions. He just couldn't hide his disdain for Obama. That's something you, needless to say, could not 'see' on the radio. I can just imagine McCain, as president, pulling that kind of immature behavior on a foreign head of state or, heaven forbid, drop his guard and drop the "c" bomb on a female head of state...any female, really, but we've already dissected that subject. John McCain happy? Positive? I guess you and I have different definitions of those words! ;)

[Vanguard]

How do we know McCain is old? His blinker is stuck! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T1-qwL5u5A)

[Peshkwe]

Ron...Tim...

Put down the dueling broad brushes.

There are military folks who would make excellent teachers and would raise up their students teaching by disciplined example. Who are excited and current and forward thinking in methodology and innovation of their field of study.

There are also folks in the military who tho they may have a degree in a subject, haven't touched the subject since they got that degree. Who are little control freaks and emotionally as cold as a dead mackerel.

There are a whole lot of military folks who fall somewhere between.




What I didn't like hearing was about doing away with the certification process for the folks in this program.

If an ex-military member had a degree in a subject covered under the program, but hadn't touched the subject in 15-20 years decided to go into teaching, They could take advantage of the program simply for being military and honorably discharged. they could then become a teacher in a low income struggling school district with no checks on whether they knew the subject to be taught any more.

A civilian who has kept up with any innovations in their chosen subject doesn't get a pass from that certification process. They have to prove that they know what the hell they're doing.

Hunh?

The certification process may not be the greatest and does vary from state to state...but it does help weed out some of the incompetents. To give one sector a total pass just 'cause they put on a uniform?

Sorry kids, that doesn't cut it for me as a parent. I want someone who's on top of their game teaching my kids, not some out of their league HOO-RAH!.

[LikaNui]

CNN.com's poll as of a few minutes ago:

Who fared better in Wednesday's presidential debate?

Sen. John McCain... 23%... 122,401

Sen. Barack Obama... 70%... 371,066

No clear winner... 6%... 34,075

Total Votes: 527,542

[Ron Whitfield]

El Tim-o, I'll not be trusting you any time soon. But, thanx for the invite.
The fact that 'the military' is the primary gang that takes over is a huge part of the problem. 'They' have stolen and perverted science every chance they've gotten. In the short and long run, we lose. Yes, we get dribs and drabs of benefit from it all, but nothing like we should.
I'm all for an awesome military, simply because it's unfortunately a need. But they aren't the be and end all in my America. Those who really pull the strings here have used and abused the military to the detriment to us citizens.
We'd be much farther along as a successful and thriving country if we all played fairly amongst ourselves.

[Marco]

Didn't get to watch the entire debate as I was fighting for control of the TV with my girls (on the bright side, I got to watch most of the debate and see Dora help a baby unicorn find her way home at the same time!), but I give the slight edge to Senator Obama for staying cool and not letting himself get baited. That was a pretty slick sidestep by Obama when he was asked if he thought Palin was qualified to be President.

McCain had nothing to lose and came out firing but once he saw that he couldn't get under Barack's skin, he faded. But I thought he did pretty well, with the scripted "I am not George Bush" line, and keeping Barack on the defensive. Got a little tired of hearing about Joe the Plumber. And I was mesmerized by the undecided worm line during the debate.


Was watching Biden talk about the debate earlier on some morning show and was snickering at his rant about how where he's from, he doesn't know any plumbers that make $250,000 a year. The more I hear and read about Biden, the more I like him. And then, on the flip side, there's Palin (yuck). I can't get over how hypocritical she is when she defends her "terrorist" comments about Obama as fair game, and yet refuses to do open-ended interviews or hold any news conferences. It's simply unbelievable that a national candidate plain refuses to answer questions, yet somehow feels perfectly entitled to go on the attack.

Got sent this link and thought some here would find it amusing (If it's already been linked, my bad). Try moving your mouse around the office for more giggles: http://www.palinaspresident.us/

[Vanguard]

Joe the Plumber is a GOP Mole and the October Surprise--AND a member of the Keating family (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/joe-plumber-more-joe-keating-family-)

[Ron Whitfield]

Well Marco, Palin has been crackin' the ol' Dick 'The Monster That Wouldn't Die' Cheney play book nightly.
But she didn't learn how to fool all the people, all the time, and neither did Dick.

[tikiyaki]

"you want to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago" -- it sounds like Senator McCain's been waiting a very long time to use that one.

No kidding. It was effective tho', but only on the surface. Sort of like a good jab that takes a second to recover from.

I thought that McCain was winning in the first 30 min, not that I agree with him, but he did come out swinging. I think Barack did a Rope a Dope with him tho', as later on McCain dug himself into a hole he couldn't get out of, painting himself even more of a loose cannon than people already thought.

Barack kept his cool, which seems to be what people (me being one of them) like about him. I DID wish he would have gotten more aggresive tho', but in the end, he came out on top anyway.

3 more weeks !

[Peshkwe]

Ooopsies!

Joe the 'unlicensed' Plumber.....

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSN1639355520081016

"It's a shame that this guy has ended up in this situation because it seems like he's misrepresented himself -- and for that matter the plumbing and pipefitting industry."


or is it -


Joe the 'I owe taxes' Plumber...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aC4j3T5.s_eQ&refer=home

According to records on file with the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, the state filed a tax lien against Samuel J. Wurzelbacher for $1,182.98 on Jan. 26, 2007, that is still active.

[tutusue]

[...]
Barack kept his cool, which seems to be what people (me being one of them) like about him. I DID wish he would have gotten more aggresive tho', but in the end, he came out on top anyway.[...]
And therein lies Obama's strength...
This, for me, is important in a leader.
Dropping "c" bombs, smirks of disdain, a vile, unpredictable temper and blatant lying are very unbecoming, don'tcha think?! Unacceptable, actually.

Are any of you on the MoveOn.org email list? The latest email discusses:
The GOP is trying to purge Democratic voters off the rolls to steal the election in states like Ohio, Florida, and Colorado.

Even if I didn't like Obama I'd vote for the democratic candidate as a vote against McCain. And Palin! :rolleyes:

[Vanguard]

Ooopsies!

Joe the 'unlicensed' Plumber.....

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSN1639355520081016

The complete "Joe" the Plumber video (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1a4_1224166209)

[Leo Lakio]

It is the discipline, structure, customary learning, and positive attitude with good moral, that molds youngsters into potentially good candidates for academia.Timothy McVeigh - decorated veteran of the U.S. Army, joined the military at age 20, fought in the Gulf War, won commendation for his actions in battle, including the Bronze Star and the Combat Infantry Badge.

But I don't think they'll be naming schools after him anytime soon.

[Vanguard]

"Joe" The Plumber compares Obama to Sammy Davis Junior (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2WX2x13jkI)

[Frankie's Market]

This last debate was, by far, McCain's best performance of the 3 debates. But was his best good enough to turn this election around? Nope.

Telling Obama that if he wanted to run against Bush, he should have done so 4 years ago was a cute line. But it is easily undercut by video footage of McCain himself earlier saying that he voted with Bush 90% of the time.

Capitalizing on Joe the Plumber was a good way of putting a human face on someone who would have to pay more in taxes under Obama's plan. Problem is, how many voters will be able to relate to someone like Joe, who earns in excess of a quarter-million? How many people will sympathize with Joe having to pay slightly more in taxes vs. folks who are unemployed and in danger of foreclosure?

Attacking Obama on Bill Ayers. On a day when the Dow took a 700+ point plunge, does anyone really care about Obama serving on an educational board with someone whom even McCain referred to as a "washed-up" terrorist?

And finally, mocking the issue of women's health (using the "quote" hand gesture) when talking about abortion,... so much for McCain reaching out for the vote of pro-choice women. I single this out as being the most damaging for McCain.

Obama, frankly speaking, was playing prevent defense for the most part. This might be a mistake in other political campaigns. But as I said, McCain's best wasn't good enough. Obama remained cool and unflappable. Didn't go after McCain harder when talking about some of the "out of bounds" remarks heard at McCain/Palin ralllies. Obama played it safe, but in the context of where this campaign is heading, it seems like he made the right decision.

[leashlaws]

Oh, how un-civic minded of me.....I mostly watched "Frank Sinatra Live
From Las Vegas" on PBS and every now and then channel flip to the
debate. It was a great concert! :)

[Walkoff Balk]

Was Joe the Plumber brought in for sewage backed up problems?

[Random]

Was Joe the Plumber brought in for sewage backed up problems?
Probably why he was seen talking to the Democrats (mainly Obama). :p

[Vanguard]

Biden more worried about 'Joe the real plumber with a license' (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Biden_more_worried_about_Joe_the_real_plumber_with _a_license.html?showall)

[Frankie's Market]

More information that indicates "Joe the Plumber" (actually, Sam the Apprentice) is a phony.

Samuel J. Wurzelbacher earned $40,000 in 2006, rather than $250,000. Meaning that he would actually benefit more under Obama's tax plan rather than McCain's.

http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffairs/index.php/2008/10/16/joe-the-plumber-would-get-more-from-obama/

Either Sam is a GOP plant,... or he's just an attention whore savoring his 15 minutes of fame. Take your pick.

In the meantime, the national union for "real" plumbers is endorsing Obama.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/nyregion/17plumber.html?em

[tutusue]

[...]
Samuel J. Wurzelbacher earned $40,000 in 2006, rather than $250,000. Meaning that he would actually benefit more under Obama's tax plan rather than McCain's.[...]
In the video linked in post #121, Joe says he's "getting ready to buy a company that makes about 250, 270, 80 thousand dollars a year...". It doesn't appear he represented himself as making that much now or in the past unless he's quoted elsewhere as saying so. :confused:

[Frankie's Market]

In the video linked in post #121, Joe says he's "getting ready to buy a company that makes about 250, 270, 80 thousand dollars a year...". It doesn't appear he represented himself as making that much now or in the past unless he's quoted elsewhere as saying so.

I still say he's as phony as a $3 bill.

"Getting ready to buy a company that makes about 250K a year?" First of all, he's not even close to being able to buy his boss' company, so claims that he's "getting ready to buy" are misleading, to say the least. (He owes nearly $1,200 in back taxes.) Secondly, even if "Joe" could take ownership of his boss' business today, he would still benefit from Obama's plan as it was revealed that this company actually made closer to $100K rather than Joe's exaggerated claims of $250K+.

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/contributors/1809

[Walkoff Balk]

Joe the Plumber might become Joe 2 Six Packs.

[tutusue]

I still say he's as phony as a $3 bill.
Oh, easily could be. I just couldn't find where JtP claimed to already be making $250k.
"Getting ready to buy a company that makes about 250K a year?" First of all, he's not even close to being able to buy his boss' company, so claims that he's "getting ready to buy" are misleading, to say the least. (He owes nearly $1,200 in back taxes.) [...]
There are ways to get around the affordability issue. Of course, those ways take a great deal of trust not to mention risk. A friend of mine sold her air conditioning company to an employee who was her foreman. The company was turned over to him in exchange for various monetary considerations such as continued health insurance, monthly income, etc. Foreman did not have to put up a chunk o' change! Foreman had been with this company for many years so my friend felt confident about the deal. I haven't spoken with her in a few months so I don't know if the current economic crisis is impacting this deal. I hope not as it had all the makings of a win-win situation.

[Vanguard]

McCain's silly moment (http://blogs.reuters.com/photo/2008/10/17/mccain-moment/)

[Walkoff Balk]

McCain's silly moment (http://blogs.reuters.com/photo/2008/10/17/mccain-moment/)

Lick it up, lick it up, its only right now
Lick it up, lick it up, ooh yeah
Lick it up, lick it up, come on, come on
Lick it up, lick it up