Do political discussions in online communities create rifts?

[mel]

I was just wondering about this. I seem to notice that the bias on this board is probably more liberal than conservative which probably puts me in a minority. I was wondering if online communities that feature political discussion have the tendency of attracting users of a certain political persuasion and discouraging users of another.

I don't really know the answer to this, but it would seem that a certain type of user is attracted to this board vs. another type of board where the political bias is different or non-existent at all.

I also wonder if users in the minority viewpoint feel alienated in an online commmunity that is set up as a place where many topics (news, entertainment, technology, sports, media, culture, etc.) are discussed.

I guess in the end it is a reflection of that community's publishers as to what the tone of the political discussion will be and how that spills over to other topics.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

[pzarquon]

I think it's pretty darned early to judge how the members of this forum lean on the political spectrum. And even if such an overwhelming demographic trend existed, given the very broad and general nature of the topics discussed - from food to music to transportation - there's definitely no reason why one's politics have to influence how one interacts at all.

I mean, really. A Republican and Democrat can comfortably debate the merit's of L&L's Chicken Katsu. A Mac user and a PC user can easily have a conversation about the odd people you meet on TheBus.

Most of my coworkers and a couple of friends are conservatives, and we get along fine. Those that find political rifts uncomfortable don't engage in political discussions. That doesn't mean we still can't talk about "Spiderman 2."

And when the topic at hand is politics? Well, of course there'll be disagreement. Perhaps sometimes heated. But it's politics. Debate and different viewpoints is the whole point. I'm part of a very, very active bulletin board like this one where the "Politics" section is the scariest of them all. There's lots of other places where fun, civil discussion can take place even if we never wade into those turbulent waters. Yet I still talk politics now and then, because for the most part, smart people can have smart discussions without getting personal.

Of course, by getting personal, I mean with other users. Certainly you'll have people who irrationally believe Bill Clinton was the Antichrist, or that George W. Bush is a moron. :)

Do you feel alienated, Mel? I'd hope not, but if you do, let's talk about it. Sure, not many other folks listen to KHVH, or work so closely with the local Republican party, but speaking at least for myself, that sure as heck doesn't mean it affects how much I appreciate what you've got to say. I'm learning about KHVH after all. And we certainly have some opinions in common as far as mass media is concerned. As for local political parties? We've had a Lingle poll that was split right down the middle. We've certainly harped on our share of goofy local Democrats.

I'm actually surprised the Mac v. PC thing hasn't been a problem here, come to think of it. Now there'sa parallel "online community" issue that often leads to things getting ugly.

Basically, if we didn't have people of different persuasions - professional, political, sexual, spiritual, and on and on and on - we wouldn't have much to talk about! Trust me. One "Fahrenheit 9/11" thread does not an enclave of closed-minded liberals make.

[Mocha]

Ditto to Pzarquon's comment. I find all of the threads here have merit. If I don't find a thread interesting I just move on. If some comment just brings a smile to my face :) I feel it's worth reading. Some political positions are an eye opener for me, sometimes they bring up points I've never considered...bring them all on! ;)

[Linkmeister]

Ditto to Pzarquon's comment. I find all of the threads here have merit. If I don't find a thread interesting I just move on. If some comment just brings a smile to my face :) I feel it's worth reading. Some political positions are an eye opener for me, sometimes they bring up points I've never considered...bring them all on! ;)

Me too. But I'll have you know I'm a completely doctrinaire Liberal and I'll brook no disagreement! ;)

[kamlost]

They could create rifts between people who are friends IRL, IMO.

But online - it depends how seriously a person would take the words typed out on the screen.

So... Are people here for the views beng put forward by Michael Moore?

[mel]

If you read the Moore movie thread and some of the political discussion in the other sections of this board, you will find most of the opinions stated to be on the left of center. For example people around here are quick to praise the 2 Johns, Kerry & Edwards but the first chance anyone has, they are Bush bashing. All of the threads that I have so far seen started here about the current President is something negative. I am not going to be the one to start any thread about Bush or other conservative or fiscally prudent issues because the liberal left will just use it as a starting point of attack. There are not enough vocal conservative users here to have at least some equal representation of the conservative viewpoint without inviting the perceived majority on the political left to come after us.

I hope to be proved wrong if even a few of you who are conservative speak up.

[Konaguy]

Bush or other conservative or fiscally prudent issues because the liberal left will just use it as a starting point of attack

Firstly including Bush in any sentence that mentions being fiscally prudent
is an absolute joke. When Clinton left office the federal government had
a large surplus. We are nearing the end of Bush's first term in office and
we have large federal government deficit. None of the baby boomers
will have to worry about that, it will be our generation that will have
to pay off that deficit and probably have to forgo our social security.

Along with the above reason and among other things, I will not be casting
a vote for Bush in the fall. All I have seen is the country has disintegrated
into divisive factions and our world standing has taken a big hit under Bush's
watch.

[mel]

Proves my point right here. Just mentioning Bush brings out an attack. It goes to show that there is an underlying hatred that may be permeating throughout.

[pzarquon]

Reminds me of the way some folks would respond to any mention of the name Clinton five years ago. :p

Seriously, Mel, I don't think this proves your point, or that there's some "underlying hatred that may be permeating throughout." In fact, I'm somewhat insulted that you're ready to automatically pigeonhole the complex political views of our diverse membership so narrowly.

After all, things have been reasonably level headed in our abortion thread (http://showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=1107) - even though it's the great grandaddy of minefield discussion topics, and even though we've clearly got people on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Honestly, I still don't see much of a "rift," or, really, much of an "attack." ("Joke" is a bit strong, maybe... :)) Although this particular thread wasn't really the place for Aaron's statement, I don't see Aaron attacking you, Mel, or going anywhere out of bounds for a political conversation. It's just that this thread was for talking about whether such conversations are possible (rather than for the debate itself). So, I maintain the answer is still, "Yes."

Though you clearly feel you're in the minority here, Mel, we love you. Really! And if you weren't here, think of all the dumb things all we commie lefty pinko tree-hugging hippies would try to get away with! :p

By the way, Aaron, if you want to take on "Is Bush a True Conservative?" question, head on over to The American Asylum (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6).

[mel]

OK. I should not have used attack as I know Aaron is not attacking me, but more so the perceived policies of President Bush or perhaps conservatism in general. But still, just the fact that I even mentioned the President was responded with such a post.

As for the underlying hatred, IMO there is perhaps an unspoken hatred buried deep within by some liberals of all things conservative, whether it be the current President of the United States, his policies, fiscal conservatism or viewpoints on social issues.

And yes, I have to commend everyone in the abortion thread for not turning it into a huge flamefest. That is why I just quickly stated my opinion and pretty much hopefully left the topic for done.

As a conservative, I fear a world where a liberal agenda will permeate, where tradtional values long the core of American history and tradition will be changed by liberal policies. We've seen some of this happen in Hawaii over the course of the last 40+ years. I certainly don't want to see it happen even more in my lifetime.

Though you clearly feel you're in the minority here, Mel, we love you. Really! And if you weren't here, think of all the dumb things all we commie lefty pinko tree-hugging hippies would try to get away with!

Political minority, so far I know I am. That is why I have to force myself to practice restraint in some of those politically charged topics. My responses would only add unnecessary fuels to the fire. I am sure the disc quota has enough of that already. :o

Anyway, just keep trudging along folks. This is still an interesting place.

By the way, Aaron, if you want to take on "Is Bush a True Conservative?" question, head on over to The American Asylum.

Maybe we should call the whole board "The Hawaii Asylum"....

Nah! Only joke! :)

[pzarquon]

IMO there is perhaps an unspoken hatred buried deep within by some liberals of all things conservative, whether it be the current President of the United States, his policies, fiscal conservatism or viewpoints on social issues.But how does this differ from what might lurk in the heart of conservatives about liberals?
I fear a world where a liberal agenda will permeate. Again, though, there's plenty of evidence that liberals today similarly "fear" civil liberties, the environment, and who knows what else are being overrun by conservatives...

I guess I'm just confused about the implication that conservatives are endangered or under attack, here or in general, when, frankly, liberals are also pretty convinced the world is going to hell in a handbasket at the hand of the other side. (Journalists often say, come to think of it, that things are going pretty good if neither "side" is happy.) Just as KaneBlues was earnestly surprised (http://www.hawaiistories.com/archives/005953.shtml) at the fairly even split in the presidential poll at HawaiiStories, I think it's often just a matter of perspective, and we all need to take a step back sometimes. Neither liberals or conservatives are an endangered species, as much as we often would like to think so.

Boy this is getting off topic. But what the heck.

Speaking as just one liberal, I certainly don't hate all things conservative. Hell, my wife accuses me of being a closet Republican. I might support gay marriage, be pro choice, pro environment and generally in favor of social support services... but I also don't like deficits (fiscal conservative), don't believe in "hate crime" legislation, believe in gun rights (to a point!), and don't really mind the death penalty.

I guess I'm just asking that you not translate a strong dislike of the president (which, okay, I confess I have) to a closed mind, or to a lock-step subscription to certain positions on a whole range of unrelated issues.

Political minority, so far I know I am. That is why I have to force myself to practice restraint in some of those politically charged topics. Back on topic, then, I hope that I can get a "hear hear" when I say, speak up! Don't censor yourself, and don't sell the rest of us short - believe it or not, we canread something we don't agree with without flinging monkey poo.

Put in your perspective. What good is a thread where everyone goes "Me Too"? Every time I've engaged someone in debate, I've learned something. A dimension I hadn't considered gets added to my understanding of the issue. And I promise, if you hold firm, and endure the occasional inappropriate rant, you'll find you have allies in the wings, and you'll also teach "the other side" a thing or two... whether they want to learn or not.
Maybe we should call the whole board "The Hawaii Asylum".... Then we're definitely going to need more conservatives. :p

[Linkmeister]

I get along with conservatives just fine; it's just that there seem to be very few left in politics. From what I've seen, most of the people who call themselves conservatives in American politics now are people so enamored of their ideology that they won't even consider its flaws.

Example: Deficits. Hey, Reagan proved deficits don't matter (from Ron Suskind's book with Paul O'Neill, quoting Dick Cheney), so let's just spend our way into a debt so large our grandchildren will be paying for it. This will cause real interest rates to be higher than they otherwise should be, meaning every American who borrows money is paying more than he would had a conservative (small c, you'll note) fiscal policy been followed for the past three-plus years.

Example: Iraq. A conservative (small c) approach would have been to let the UN inspectors do their job back in the fall of 2002. But no; we knew Saddam was in possession of WMD, so he had to be taken out at once. Now we have 140K soldiers in that country, over 1000 dead and an unknown number severely wounded, and no WMDs. That's adventurism, not conservatism.

Nelson Rockefeller and his like were conservatives; the politicians calling themselves that are not.

Note also that I've not bashed Bush once in those paragraphs. ;)

[Karen]

Hi Mel, et al...

I have posted for at least 7yrs. at a couple of online forums that are very political and religious, nothing being off the table, so to speak. You bet there are divisions, but that's modern life. It has never turned into a total fight, etc, but I have even witnessed posts having to be deleted when ad hominem became the rule of the hour.

I consider myself to be ultra-conservative, even though that may be an exaggeration. I know for a fact that Kerry will not cut spending, as I saw, but didn't save the list, a list of what promises he has made to people when campaigning, and it was a list of much NEW or increased spending. So Bush spends as badly as any lib, oh well, at least the platform he stands on is conservative. I couldn't in my own conscience vote for any democrat, for the two parties are vastly different.

this does NOT mean that heaven will be full of GOPers, and not Dems. It means that the two parties stand for vastly different things, and I am against gay rights, abortion, and pornography of any kind having first amendment protection, just for an example of the differences of the two parties. it is just these type of subjects that are debated day and night, at my favorite forums. Most of the time, these forums hum along without much serious problem, just the typical insults/digs that people make at other people, ad hominem sort of lowkey style.

I don't feel in the minority even if and when I am. When one has total confidence in one's beliefs, and has faith in God, one never feels alone, nor feels left out...etc. I am in my eleventh year of living on Oahu, and know I am a minority here politically, yet I know people that puzzle me. They say they are Democrat, then say they hate abortion except in extreme cases, that they know Clinton was dishonorable as a leader, that he embarassed them, and on and on it goes....in other words, they share many of my principles, but they vote Dem. cuz their family has for a hundred years or something.

[Konaguy]

Although this particular thread wasn't really the place for Aaron's statement, I don't see Aaron attacking you, Mel, or going anywhere out of bounds for a political conversation. It's just that this thread was for talking about whether such conversations are possible (rather than for the debate itself). So, I maintain the answer is still, "Yes."


Well that is probably true, but I wasn't going to say anything until
Mel mentioned fiscally conservative and Bush in the same sentence.
The way I look at is most of you won't have to deal with Bush's legacy
in the future. Thus I don't like the direction we are going with "W"
in office. Frankly the future looks very bleak if "W" gets re-elected.

[Enough of my rant]



"By the way, Aaron, if you want to take on "Is Bush a True Conservative?" question, head on over to The American Asylum."


I checked over there, there was no thread about that there ? No big deal
I already made up my mind anyway.

[mel]

Most of my rants regarding fiscal responsiblity lies more within the framework of our State government which of course as a topic like Mr. Bush should be on a separate thread away from this one.

[mel]

Thanks guys and girls. You all made your points here. I can live with most of the explanations. Mahalo and thank you plenty. Time to move on to your respective topics and chase after the political discussions there. Aloha.

[kamlost]

Ahh.. I missed it.

Well I'm pretty much a conservative. But the views change depending on the way I was raised.

[scrivener]

I missed it too, but I'm jumping in anyway.

I know what you mean, Mel, because I've felt that if I'd spoken up about a few things here or on HawaiiStories, I would automatically be put on the defensive, and that didn't seem fair. Others with more liberal leanings feel free to voice their opinions without worrying that they'll get flamed, but conservatives in places like this--and yes, I'm going to almost agree with you and say that places like this attract more liberals--go out on a limb just about any time they express their conservatism.

This is not to say I feel I've been "attacked" (but boy...if Adam Carolla says something racial in a comedic rant, I've learned you do NOT stick up for him!); rather, I am aware that this worrying is pretty much all on me. People DO want to hear opposing views, else as Ryan says, they wouldn't keep checking back here.

On the other hand, consider this: You call yourself a conservative, and being politically conservative myself, I should feel kinship with you or at least a sense of "Aha! A sympathetic ear!" Yet I feel just as much alienation from conservatives as I do from liberals in places like this. People consider me a nut (at worst) or a rebel (at best) for my libertarian persuasion. I don't like the President because he's not conservative enough for my tastes. The Republicans are as messed up, in my view, as the Democrats.

On yet two other hands, consider this, too: I'm a worshipping evangelical Christian and a social liberal. Man, I don't fit in anywhere. In Christian communities, I'm a radical, while in libertarian communities I'm a socialist.

So if you were feeling discouraged or alienated, believe me: I hear 'ya and feel your pain. But what Ryan said is also right on: if you don't voice alternate opinions, what's the point of having this place?

sign me,
social liberal / political reactionary / borderline anarchist / evangelical moderate

[mel]

I know what you mean, Mel, because I've felt that if I'd spoken up about a few things here or on HawaiiStories, I would automatically be put on the defensive, and that didn't seem fair. Others with more liberal leanings feel free to voice their opinions without worrying that they'll get flamed, but conservatives in places like this--and yes, I'm going to almost agree with you and say that places like this attract more liberals--go out on a limb just about any time they express their conservatism.

It would seem that this place has certainly attracted more liberals, though some conservatives have stood up to be counted at this thread. Still the overwhelming viewpoint is liberal considering that posts started in the American Asylum section are praising liberal viewpoints and dissing the conservative. It will be interesting to see what happens when the Republican convention convenes later this month to see what kind of posts are started. I am NOT going to start any posts about the convention because it will only invite further liberal bashing. (As an aside watching both conventions is almost a total waste of time since we all know what the outcome will be.)

Let the liberals start the posts and bash among themselves I figure. And if conseratives say nothing the threads will run out of steam and just be replaced by something else. That is one reason why I did not jump into the topic of mass transit over here because I have been through it perhaps with some of the people on this board in past online lives. And without my viewpoint there, that thread has pretty much laid dormant. :)


People DO want to hear opposing views, else as Ryan says, they wouldn't keep checking back here.


Oh yes, people do. I wholeheartedly agree. It makes discussions interesting. However it is somewhat intimidating if there is only one opposing viewpoint against the vocal majority. And if too much people are in the opposite camp and they all post at once it kind of is humbug if you want to address each viewpoint.... you end up spending too much time on one topic or this board. I already spend too much time here. :o


On the other hand, consider this: You call yourself a conservative, and being politically conservative myself, I should feel kinship with you or at least a sense of "Aha! A sympathetic ear!" Yet I feel just as much alienation from conservatives as I do from liberals in places like this. People consider me a nut (at worst) or a rebel (at best) for my libertarian persuasion. I don't like the President because he's not conservative enough for my tastes. The Republicans are as messed up, in my view, as the Democrats.


Hey I agree that the President is not conservative enough. Even conservative radio talk show hosts Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage have stated this. Sometimes Mr. Bush waffles too much on certain things or is not very direct with his viewpoint (I don't want to get into specifics because that would need to be discussed in another topic).

Perhaps no political party is perfect... you just try to find some kind of ideology and try to have that party or more importantly the person you elect fit in with your idea of what is good and just.



On yet two other hands, consider this, too: I'm a worshipping evangelical Christian and a social liberal. Man, I don't fit in anywhere. In Christian communities, I'm a radical, while in libertarian communities I'm a socialist.

I have a friend who proclaims that he is also a libertarian yet when we have some discussions he too sounds like he could be a socialist.

By the way the Libertarian Party has this neat little "World's Smallest Political Quiz" to gauge where you stand on most issues. Maybe it is rather simplistic, but it is fun to take.

I've taken it before, but I hate the new outsourced version because it does not work with my Macintosh OSX browsers: Safari or MS Explorer. :eek: The radio buttons cannot be selected with those browsers. So once again, just by the choice of computer platform I have been marginalized by another organization just because I am in the weee 3% minority.

Anyway, all you PC folks should take this. It is kind of fun when it works.

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html



But what Ryan said is also right on: if you don't voice alternate opinions, what's the point of having this place?



I can't disagree with that! :)

[Albert]

I absolutely detest Bush2. Dunno whether that makes me a "liberal" or not. I just think he's a weasel (with excuses to those cute little critters, which Bush2 isn't).

But I think the "other one" is extremely dubious, despite being a 'WAR HERO'.

So I'm not much help in "political discussions in online communities".

If I live that much longer, maybe I'll vote in the next Presidential Election, but this time I am voting by NOT voting.

[Glen Miyashiro]

I was just wondering about this. I seem to notice that the bias on this board is probably more liberal than conservative which probably puts me in a minority. I was wondering if online communities that feature political discussion have the tendency of attracting users of a certain political persuasion and discouraging users of another.
It would depend on the degree to which politics enters into non-political discussions. I frequent some boards where the majority appear to be solidly conservative, right-wing, evangelical Christians -- people with whom I would probably never agree on anything political! -- but those board are hobby- and leisure-oriented and we generally are pretty good about sticking on topic, although folks often can't resist a few political barbs, especially in years like this one. And I'm fine with that, and go there a lot.

Do political discussions in online communities create rifts? It depends on whether you can stay civil. Arguing about the merits of the president's tax cut proposal (for example) is one thing; calling the president insulting names is another; calling fellow board participants insulting names is something else entirely.

[craigwatanabe]

Politics is like religion. It's a very personal issue and should stay that way, however in our democratic society we chose to be represented so we've become a Republic.

My feelings on politics should be that a District Representative should go to all of the town meetings in his/her district. Take that majority vote on whatever issue his/her district wants and moves to the State Legislature and votes on whatever bills his/her district wanted or hates.

Whatever outcome is derived out of the State Legislature goes to the Federal government for further debate.

It should be that simple where legislators act upon the majority of their district they represent. This way even if you as a State Representative is against abortion, if your district is in favor of it, you have to represent that majority voice and vote accordingly.

I'm a Republican and I'm against abortion that's why my wife and I have six kids. However I'm not gonna ram my beliefs down another person's throat. If you want to abort then go ahead, statistics say you'll be sorry for that decision later in life but that's your choice and should remain so.

Why can't we just get along...When my vegetarian friends (Hi Terry) tell me I shouldn't eat meat, I tell them, "Heck if I can eat your food, you can eat mine okay so dig in the prime rib taste better with the grizzle"

We don't have to follow each other's personal belief we just have to respect it. Maybe someone should start a party called, "Get Real" and let's get back to the real issues in life like buy now or wait til the Sunday flyers?

[Glen Miyashiro]

My feelings on politics should be that a District Representative should go to all of the town meetings in his/her district. Take that majority vote on whatever issue his/her district wants and moves to the State Legislature and votes on whatever bills his/her district wanted or hates.

(...)

It should be that simple where legislators act upon the majority of their district they represent. This way even if you as a State Representative is against abortion, if your district is in favor of it, you have to represent that majority voice and vote accordingly.

Now there's an interesting point for discussion. Should an elected official only be the voice of his constituency? The other view is that an elected official got elected because the voters felt that they agreed with his views and positions, and that the official should then go on to champion what he believes in. And if the voters don't like what he's been doing, then they can vote him out of office in the next election.


I'm a Republican and I'm against abortion that's why my wife and I have six kids.
There's one way to get more votes on your side: grow 'em! :D

[craigwatanabe]

Hey Glen,

My wife's a Democrat and my kids are all confused now. Maybe I should have a 7th kid and name him "Other". That way when everybody's frustrated at the ballot box they'll elect him by default.

[Karen]

Of course political discussions in online communities cause rifts, occasionally. Human nature being what it is, this cannot be avoided. None of us is forced to join an online community, so the occasional rifts shouldn't be apologized for, except by those involved, and wishing to apologize.

The hardest thing about posting about delicate, passionately held beliefs is that we are NOT in person, talking! If every poster of every online community possibly could be reminded of how void the written word is, it would help a lot. I did a simple experiment once, of rereading the same few posts over more than one time, intentionally putting emphasis on various words, and reading same posts with kind tone in my mind, and same ones with bitchy tone, and it reallly does work, that we can read a person's posts in nice or not ways, often.

The written words has no tone or voice inflection, and we don't know which words the writer had emphasis on in his/her mind, plus we lack the countenance of the writer, their body language, etc.

On top of all of this, we filter the writer's words through our mind and mood of the moment, which we all knows varies. Sigh...I think we should all pat ourselves on the back for the majority of the time that we do this as congenially as we do!

[craigwatanabe]

Amen! Okay, let's eat! :)

[Karen]

LOL, say grace first, please. (G) Milk and cookies, or are we eating a full meal?

[craigwatanabe]

never mind pass the gravy, I'm on my seconds already :D

[Karen]

LOL you dudes and your gravy! (G) I am, at the moment, enjoying a piece of homemade Lilikoi bread, with a tiny tad of sour cream on it, to moisten it even more. Does that trip yer trigger, or offend your taste buds? A glass of fresh brewed tea next, & I'm set to turn up the Classic Rock, and exercise. amen~

[mel]

I'm away from this topic for a few days and now we are having an online foodfest? Mmmmm.... I like chocolate.

[kamlost]

chocolate.. chocolate.. What's your fav?