Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

[helen]

Saturday's (July 24) Advertiser reported that more bones were found on the Wal-Mart site on Keeaumoku Street during July. No idea if the find is going to delay the opening of Wal-Mart in middle to late October.

[adrian]

I thought they were done with digging?

[Albert]

Bones, bones. It's a cinch the original owner of those bones don't care. I don't know why people are making such a fuss about it.

[Serenity]

Bones, bones. It's a cinch the original owner of those bones don't care. I don't know why people are making such a fuss about it.

Gee, Albert, How can you say that?
That is not a very nice thing to say. :(
Bones are sacred. They are not just
something you can toss out into a garbage,
& say, it's no big deal, & just move on.
They probably have to find the next of kin,
have another proper burial, or something.
Perhaps, it could have been a burial plot
or an old hawaiin burial plot. who knows.
Maybe it was an old burial plot that they
failed to mention to anyone, so that they
could build a business on top of it.
Not very comforting, I think.
It seems like everyone is out to
just make a buck, regardless
of what or who they destroy.

[Albert]

"Bones are sacred."

Rubbish.

What do you do with your chicken bones after you've eaten all the meat off them? Throw them in the trash? Down the garbage disposal? You think man's bones are more important than chicken ones?

Bones are NOT "sacred".

If the descendants of these humans whose bones were found at the Wal-Mart site cared so much, why didn't they maintain it as a cemetery?

[helen]

If they were building the Wal-Mart on former forest or sugar cane area I can understand that it could a Hawaiian graveyard. However that area had buildings since the 1960's or so, maybe as early as the 1950's.

[helen]

Been noticing that the lights in the parking structure at this Wal-Mart has been on at nights.

And there are ready to setup traffic lights at the intersection of Keeaumoku and Kanunu Streets.

[pzarquon]

When I lived on Keeaumoku, I so looked forward to this store, although of course no one is looking forward to the traffic. As they clean it up and put in the finishing touches, it's not quite as monstrous as I think most folks feared. The setback from Keeaumoku isn't bad, after all, and with some of those subtenants and their storefronts, it looks less like a Borg Cube and more like... well, another big monument to capitalism.

[mel]

I can't wait for the grand opening to this monument of capitalism.

You know, Keeaumoku Street will be slightly widened along the entire perimeter of the Walmart storefront. The sidewalk is/has been rebuilt some feet back where the original sidewalk was, and the ugly utility poles will be removed. A big benefit is the added traffic signal on Kanunu Street near LikeLike Drive-in restaurant.

There is no doubt that traffic will be horrendous once the store is open. I don't mind it. I'd rather see the site being put into good, productive use than having it lay fallow for so many years as it once was.

The store is slated for an October opening which is only like 7 or 8 weeks away.

[Konaguy]

I can't wait for the grand opening to this monument of capitalism.

You know, Keeaumoku Street will be slightly widened along the entire perimeter of the Walmart storefront. The sidewalk is/has been rebuilt some feet back where the original sidewalk was, and the ugly utility poles will be removed. A big benefit is the added traffic signal on Kanunu Street near LikeLike Drive-in restaurant.

There is no doubt that traffic will be horrendous once the store is open. I don't mind it. I'd rather see the site being put into good, productive use than having it lay fallow for so many years as it once was.

The store is slated for an October opening which is only like 7 or 8 weeks away.

I went into a Wal-Mart Super Center on the mainland.It totally blew
me away. The supermarket side of the store gives Safeway etc a
run for its money. The Honolulu store will have Sams Club too as
far as I understand. So that means even more people will be coming
there.

[Kilinahe]

There's a supercenter in my mom's neighborhood in Florida, and I have to say, as much as their business practices bug me, I LOVE the supercenter. I love them almost as much as I love Target. My only regret about moving from Makiki to Mililani is that I can't go to the Wal-Mart as often as I'd like. We have a Wal-mart in Mililani, but it's not quite the same.

[adrian]

I was wondering, how old do you have to be to be a member of Sam's Club?

Since my college is near there, my Mom is probably gonna ask me to stop by and get some things (or get somethings before school starts).

And who rides the bus and shops at Sam's Club? I won't be buying the 50lbs of rice and carry it home on TheBus, but I just want to know what you're experiences are like (and sorry about the threadjack).

[helen]

I get the same problem the other way around since Costco is across the street from where I work. Not that I am hauling 50 pounds of rice on the bus.

As far as the age limit to use Sam's Club, I have no idea. In fact I have no idea on the membership fee but it can wait until it opens.

[Vanguard]

Well, whatever you people do, be careful with perscriptions :D

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/081204_nw_Prescription_Error.html

[kimo55]

Saturday's (July 24) Advertiser reported that more bones were found on the Wal-Mart site on Keeaumoku Street during July. No idea if the find is going to delay the opening of Wal-Mart in middle to late October.


This is the thing Hawaii "government" should be the most embarrassed about. but of course they wont be;
allowing america's worst corporate citizen with the worst record in every aspect of business into the heart of Honolulu.

The monolithic mausoleum dead center in our honolulu, with no setback built right up to the sidewalk.

the decimation it will have on long established businesses in town.

The iwi kupuna problem.
...too many who should know better say things like: " we make too much out of a bunch of old bones and rock, after all that's exactly what it is." That may be the case, to that person, but it is sadly, pathetically typical ethnocentric myopia.
As far as the treatment of bones is concerned; The apathy foreigners have toward their ancestors is not universal. Heiau are sacred to Hawaiians, as are kupuna iwi; bones of ancestors, and the lessons, memory and ways of those that have gone before. And no one should ever forget it is your place to respect the traditions and what is important to the presevation of the host culture.

The destruction of the religious ways of the indigenous culture of these islands is one of the most evil things perpetrated by America. The destruction of this land, just because it is happening slowly and is almost unnoticeable, doesn't mean it should be accepted.

[helen]

It is not like they built over an existing cemetary. Right now I have no idea if the bones are ancient Hawaiian, someone from the 1800's or the remains of a missing person from the 70's or 80's.

And no one knew that it was there to being with.

And while the company doing the construction was late in reporting the find, they did report it.

[Albert]

"As far as the treatment of bones is concerned; The apathy foreigners have toward their ancestors is not universal."

It's quite possibly more "universal" for humans to do the sensible thing and burn the bodies (and the bones) rather than digging holes for the remains.

[Mocha]

Right on Kimo55! I never knew the details of what happens when they find remains on a work site but they should be treated with respect. And Wal-Mart my daughter on the mainland pointed out their work ethic (lack of) and their low wages etc.
People will flock to the giant stores with their bargains I personally will not support an establishment that doesn't pay fair wages or give WOMEN fair opportunites.
:eek:

[mel]

There is no need to turn this thing into a political football. It is nearly completed, and once built people will flock in droves to reap the kinds of bargains that are not available in urban Honolulu. It is a great thing to have Walmart and Sam's Club right here in my neighborhood.

[AuntieNellieKulolo]

"As far as the treatment of bones is concerned; The apathy foreigners have toward their ancestors is not universal."

It's quite possibly more "universal" for humans to do the sensible thing and burn the bodies (and the bones) rather than digging holes for the remains.

I favor the Tibetan practice of sky burial myself, at least in theory. It conserves land and resources, and benefits the birds who eat the flesh. Too 'in your face' for the Judeo-Christian West, though... :eek:

[Albert]

"I favor the Tibetan practice of sky burial myself, at least in theory."

I agree, although I'm not sure we have the right kinds of birds here to make it practical for Hawaii. The ones we have certainly eat flesh, but they tend to hang out in the low-lying areas of the islands. We certainly don't want corpses lined up on Ala Moana Beach Park waiting for the mynahs and zebra doves to finish their dinner.

For Hawaii, I think cremation makes much more sense, scatter the ashes in the ocean. That's the way I'd like to be dealt with, preferably dump the ashes off Waikiki and then everyone have a drink on me at Duke's.

[kimo55]

For Hawaii, I think cremation makes much more sense, scatter the ashes in the ocean. That's they way I'd like to be dealt with, preferably dump the ashes off Waikiki and then everyone have a drink on me at Duke's.


Or literally have a drink on you if they toast while on their boards on da surf!

cremation. That's my choice. the taking up of valuable real estate after you have kicked the bucket doesn't make sense!
I will be scattered in tahiti....

[mel]

There's some company that for a price will blast your ashes in a rocketship into orbit.

[kimo55]

There's some company that for a price will blast your ashes in a rocketship into orbit.


I believe my brother will do that for free;
but it will prolly be; stuff my ashes in a big pipe and light the bottom with a roman candle and some cherry bombs, send my burned ass into the sky over lanikai.

wait; nope; he wont do that for free; he'd need a case of heineken.

[Albert]

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Aug/18/bz/bz02a.html

Looks like there's no shortage of people wanting to work at the place.

[kimo55]

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Aug/18/bz/bz02a.html

Looks like there's no shortage of people wanting to work at the place.


little do the poor souls know...

http://www.thymewise.net/blog/archives/000879.html

http://www.dailyaztec.com/Archive/Fall-2002/11-11-02/opinion/opinion02.html

http://www.hoosiergazette.com/News/news016.htm

[Mocha]

Thanks again for the links Kimo...you're probably in the minority (as I) but keep reminding people that the mega stores are NOT all what they pretend to be!

[kimo55]

Thanks again for the links Kimo...you're probably in the minority (as I) but keep reminding people that the mega stores are NOT all what they pretend to be!


and not at all what the city&county and state sucker themselves into thinking the bigboxsters are...


too many horror stories to relate. i have been on the forefront of a few major anti redevelopment campaigns, esp. where the walmarts of the world and their ilk buffalo their way into a town. Doing any amount of due diligence/research will result in the exposure of too many negatives to justify a bigbox to enter a town. Yet many polititians, C&C and state Oaf-fish uls allow these carpetbaggers to come to town.

myopic. pathetic. sad.

[Konaguy]

What is even more shocking is 4,500 people applied for 1,300 positions
at the Sams Club/ Wal-Mart Super Center

[kimo55]

What is even more shocking is 4,500 people applied for 1,300 positions
at the Sams Club/ Wal-Mart Super Center


ok, I'll bite;
why would that shock?

[Konaguy]

ok, I'll bite;
why would that shock?

Because the unemployment rate in HNL is so low and
getting a job at Wal-Mart doesn't really lead anywhere.
The managerial positions have been already filled according
to the Advertiser.

[kimo55]

Because the unemployment rate in HNL is so low and
getting a job at Wal-Mart doesn't really lead anywhere.
The managerial positions have been already filled according
to the Advertiser.

yea, that's weird...
how you figgah!?

[AuntieNellieKulolo]

"I favor the Tibetan practice of sky burial myself, at least in theory."

I agree, although I'm not sure we have the right kinds of birds here to make it practical for Hawaii. The ones we have certainly eat flesh, but they tend to hang out in the low-lying areas of the islands. We certainly don't want corpses lined up on Ala Moana Beach Park waiting for the mynahs and zebra doves to finish their dinner.

For Hawaii, I think cremation makes much more sense, scatter the ashes in the ocean. That's the way I'd like to be dealt with, preferably dump the ashes off Waikiki and then everyone have a drink on me at Duke's.

I agree, no vultures in Hawai'i so mo' bettah burn 'em. I'm giggling thinking of Ala Moana Beach Park turned into a charnel ground(I have a sick sense of humor)... :D In Tibet the climate is much dryer and colder too so sky burial makes sense there.

Interesting, my stepfather passed away in '98 and I had moved to NYC before his ashes were scattered off Haleiwa(at the time my mom said they were scattered 'somewhere on the North Shore', but I didn't know where). I went there with my mom a couple of years ago, walked down the beach away from my mom, noticed the nice white coral stones and thought I'd make a little Nepali-style stupa out of them(something that is done to house ashes or to mark a sacred spot). So I sat down, built it, and invited my mom to check out my handiwork. She told me to look straight out into the water where there was a red buoy, and said that was where my stepfather's ashes were scattered.

Chicken skin yeah?

[Albert]

"getting a job at Wal-Mart doesn't really lead anywhere"

Probably beats McD's ...

[AuntieNellieKulolo]

"getting a job at Wal-Mart doesn't really lead anywhere"

Probably beats McD's ...

ANYTHING beats McD's. I should know, it was my first job...

[kimo55]

... She told me to look straight out into the water where there was a red buoy, and said that was where my stepfather's ashes were scattered.

Chicken skin yeah?


cool.
there are no coincidences....

[mel]

And to bring the topic back to focus... Walmart Keeaumoku is slated for a mid October opening (http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/20/business/story1.html) with Sam's Club opening a week later. Folks, we're down to a few weeks before everyone in urban Honolulu can take advantage of the bargains these stores will have to offer. Guaranteed to attract a large, large crowd of shoppers.

So, once Walmart/Sam's Club opens, what would be on your first shopping list? What kind of items will you shop for at these 2 stores that make them a better bargain than they would be at other stores nearby?

[kimo55]

And to bring the topic back to focus... Walmart Keeaumoku is slated for a mid October opening (http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/20/business/story1.html) with Sam's Club opening a week later. Folks, we're down to a few weeks before everyone in urban Honolulu can take advantage of the bargains these stores will have to offer. Guaranteed to attract a large, large crowd of shoppers.

So, once Walmart/Sam's Club opens, what would be on your first shopping list? What kind of items will you shop for at these 2 stores that make them a better bargain than they would be at other stores nearby?


Heck with that; here's MY plan:

I will peruse the harsh Flourescent tube-illuminated aisles of these large halls of the temple of consumerism, dedicated to the god of supersizemesavings and the spending of the GodAlmighty Dollar, to experience that divine miracle they teach in these hallowed halls; "I am saving WHILE I am spending! Amazing huh!?"... and scan the prices, noticing their exact percentage reduction in price on cheaper Taiwan ROC and Mexico made sweatshop origin copies of products I see at other stores that have been here for decades.... I will make note of the overall costs of what I may need for my daily life, and also make a list of allllll the crap I can buy there that I actually DON"T need, and possibly follow the path of the lemmings and think of buying it to artificially fill my life with fake consumer happiness and fulfillment. I would have to refrain from experiencing looking forward to the joy and happiness of visiting this beautiful chapel of cheap to return here soon, to replace the wonderful products that filled my daily life with joy, as these products, sadly, too soon departed this life, having fell apart or perhaps wore out too quickly; I'd say about double the amount of time based on the amount of savings I made...
This visit, I will not really buy anything. No, not this time. because I KNOW I can get alll this stuff even cheaper! I will wait til the NEXT Bigbox store opens, (hope it's reeeeaaaalllll sooon!) In possibly the last empty lowlying space here in Honolulu, Hope they do it quick! I really want bargains! So I won't mind at all if they condemn and eminent domain a good number of one story older buldings and a few mom-and-pop shops. No, I believe firmly that I need more of a choice and I want even lower prices than Walmart and Sam's Club. I hear they have this choice on the mainland, and darn it, I'm an American and I want this place LOOKING like America!

It is my right, my prerogative, nay, even my responsibility as a proud myopic nonthinking member of our wasteful consumeristically based religion and society to support and even campaign for the inclusion here in our town, solely for OUR benefit, of EVERY brand of competitive retailer, regardless of any other consideration.

Yes, you heard right; it may even be my religion; based on the satisfaction, inner comfort, bliss, joy, protection and fulfillment I feel that I receive when I know deep down, I am properly performing the rituals they teach the masses: I am buying stuff. Then, one third of each product, (the outer layer) immediately is relegated to the landfill. Yes, I am at one with our new god; I am filling my space with these material goods and supporting these stores, and all they mean to society, because they are here for one thing; to supply me with Bar Gains. I will shop on Sunday and every other day. It is a religious experience after all, I love communing and swarming with the faithful flock and I don't care how much they compare us to blind sheep following the leader off the cliff. I am in my comfort zone and nobody will take that away from me! Because after all, that's the only thing that matters anymore. My wants and my needs; ME!
Won't you join the flock? C'mon, it's painless! Just shut your mind and open your wallet!

[kimo55]

And to bring the topic back to focus... Walmart Keeaumoku is slated for a [URL=http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/20/business/story1.html]



from that linked story:

I dont understand:

"walmart is pleased to offer customers shops that reflect flowers of hawaii" ?!


...also,
What kind of diverse local shops will this attract at the highest retail lease rate ever seen?!



"With the Shops on Keeaumoku, Wal-Mart is pleased to offer customers a diverse mix of tenants -- businesses that reflect some of the local flowers of Hawaii," Lin said, adding that store openings are slated to coincide with the opening of Wal-Mart.

Rent on the 500- to 750-square-foot retail spaces in the Shops on Keeaumoku will be at a premium, said Jon-Eric Greene, leasing agent for Wal-Mart. Other rentals in the neighborhood retail for around $2.50 to $3.50 per square foot, but shop spaces anchored by a Wal-Mart typically will fetch 30 to 50 percent higher rents than the highest market rates, Greene said.

[mel]

To each his/her own. The majority of consumers will hail the arrival of Walmart/Sam's Club with non-stop traffic and open wallets. All hail to American capitalism! :)

[kimo55]

To each his/her own. The majority of consumers will hail the arrival of Walmart/Sam's Club with non-stop traffic and open wallets. All hail to American capitalism! :)


yes... hail, and rain to american capitolism!

[mel]

Walmart is one of capitalism's great success stories! Hooray for Walmart.

[Konaguy]

To each his/her own. The majority of consumers will hail the arrival of Walmart/Sam's Club with non-stop traffic and open wallets. All hail to American capitalism! :)


I call Wal-Mart guerrilla capitalism.It seems they want to submarine the small business person.On top of it the low
prices are the result of importing from 3rd world countries.
Even though I shop there and bought the new computer
I'm using at Wal-Mart, I really despise Wal-Mart frankly.

[kimo55]

I call Wal-Mart guerrilla capitalism.It seems they want to submarine the small business person.that would make them King Kong capitalism.
Where does King Kong sit?! AAAANNNNNYYYYY where he wants to.
Where does wal-mart sit? They come and settle into ANY town they want. lay waste, and no one can do a darn t'ing aboudit!


http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-100403Wal-Mart_Collapses_U.S._Cities_and_Towns.html


http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5559&st=45

http://freewebz.com/wallmartsucks


http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3045walmart_iowa.html

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/778627631?ts=1093062158&sign[partnerID]=1&sign[memberID]=651688017&sign[partner_userID]=651688017

http://www.ncounty.net/users/claytons/walmart2.html


http://goldismoney.info/forums/archive/index.php/t-5184.html

[mel]

It is ironic that people who hate Walmart will still shop there. To me if you hate something you keep away from it at all costs. For me something like cigarrette smoke is something I keep away from. I hate it. I keep away from it.

Ever shopped at Ross? Buy Nike? Go to boutique shops to buy the latest fashions? Do you purchase electronics? Computers? A lot of these consumer goods are produced in third world countries under so called slave labor conditons. Some products we know of and something has been done. But I bet a lot of other products we don't know about, and frankly a lot of people don't care if they perceive getting a bargain for an item. Often times it doesn't matter where you buy it.

No business is perfect. Consumers will support those businesses that will stretch their limited dollars the furthest while providing consumers with the best products or services.

As for small businesses, the innovative ones will learn to adapt to marketplace conditions and adjust accordingly. Happens all the time in a capitalistic society. Sure there will be casualties along the way, but that is the way life is.

[Konaguy]

The really sad thing is people are getting sucked into
Wal-Mart's web with the low pricing. But at what cost
to the 3rd world countries where Wal-Mart gets their goods,
their own employees, or the surrounding business community.

I have seen these commercials Wal-Mart has had on TV
portraying them as a All -American company,welcomed
by the communities that they have stores at. They sort
of make me cringe because of what I mentioned above.

[Konaguy]

It is ironic that people who hate Walmart will still shop there. To me if you hate something you keep away from it at all costs.


Even though I don't like Wal-Mart, they do have a pretty good electronics department. Since in Kona we do not have a good
computer store here, Wal-Mart is the only gamne in town.
Like I mentioned the low prices unfortunately supercede even if
you do not like the business.


But I bet a lot of other products we don't know about, and frankly a lot of people don't care if they perceive getting a bargain for an item. Often times it doesn't matter where you buy it.


That is the negative side effect of our grand global economy.
It is sad thing that people have put low prices ahead of where
the product was made etc.



As for small businesses, the innovative ones will learn to adapt to marketplace conditions and adjust accordingly. Happens all the time in a capitalistic society. Sure there will be casualties along the way, but that is the way life is.

It is not the way life is supposed to be in my opinion. Sure
it is great to have low prices, but like I said at what cost.

[mel]

Even though I don't like Wal-Mart, they do have a pretty good electronics department. Since in Kona we do not have a good
computer store here, Wal-Mart is the only gamne in town.
Like I mentioned the low prices unfortunately supercede even if
you do not like the business.

Yes, and I bet millions of other people feel the same way as you. The price point is too hard to resist and you violate your own principles just to get that product at that price point. Of course if the product is scarce and Walmart is the only place to get it, most people will buy it there rather than search elsewhere (internet) for the same product.



That is the negative side effect of our grand global economy.
It is sad thing that people have put low prices ahead of where
the product was made etc.

With the cost of living so high, people know where the bargains are and will continue to go to those places that provide good prices.


It is not the way life is supposed to be in my opinion. Sure
it is great to have low prices, but like I said at what cost.

Yes, life is not fair. I have had to face life's injustices. We try to adapt the best we can or move out of the way.

No one really thinks about the cost to societies in third world countries from which the cheap products come from unless that cost personally hits the consumer in their own pocketbook. For those who are principled and want to make a statement it is entirely within your right to not buy those kinds of products or patronize those businesses that sell those products.

For me, like the majority of millions upon millions of consumers who have bought and continue to buy products from Walmart and other big box retailers, the low price points that make the products affordable to consumers will always override other factors.

[adrian]

Anyone knows what time they open? If its around 7:00am, then I'll be there after I come off the Route A bus. :D

I'll first browse the computer isle (love computers/electronics) and after I gaze at the new products they have that I wish I could buy (being unemployed sucks bad) I'll just walk around that store until classes start at 8:00.

Probably my Mom will let me get a Sam's card, so I can develop pictures and she can pick it up later.

I wonder if non shoppers will be able to park there? (Heald College needs parking bad).

[Konaguy]

Yes, and I bet millions of other people feel the same way as you. The price point is too hard to resist and you violate your own principles just to get that product at that price point. Of course if the product is scarce and Walmart is the only place to get it, most people will buy it there rather than search elsewhere (internet) for the same product.


I'll give you an example out of my life why I ended up shopping at Wal-Mart recently. My PC died, and I needed
to get a computer immediately. There is only two major
places here in Kona where you can easily buy a computer--
Costco and Wal-Mart.

Since I don't have a Costco membership and I didn't want to
buy a EMachine [The cheapest computer at Costco]. I ended
up going to Wal-Mart to buy the computer. Like I mentioned
I only go to Wal-Mart because they have the only decent
electronics section here in Kona.


No one really thinks about the cost to societies in third world countries from which the cheap products come from unless that cost personally hits the consumer in their own pocketbook. .

Well try this one for size we should be caring about the effects of this global economy on the third world. We are
essentially getting the low prices not only Wal-Mart
but others on the backs of slave labor in the third world.

In my esteemed opinion terrorism and the slave labor in the third world are interconnected.Thus in reality we SHOULD
be caring where these products come from. But unfortunately we have blinders on and don't see the bigger
picture. We ALL are caught in the low price web like it or not.

[kimo55]

In my esteemed opinion terrorism and the slave labor in the third world are interconnected. Thus in reality we SHOULD
be caring where these products come from. But unfortunately we have blinders on and don't see the bigger
picture.



Interesting points to be sure, however, I take exception to this statement:



We ALL are caught in the low price web like it or not.


No. Emphatically not. Some of us are NOT caught in the "low price web".

[mel]

My PC died, and I needed to get a computer immediately. There is only two major places here in Kona where you can easily buy a computer-- Costco and Wal-Mart.

I totally understand that, especially if you need the computer for work or business purposes. You go to the store and buy it if you need to replace the broken one. Thankfully for you, Walmart is right there in Kona.

Most of my family live in Honokaa, and if you want to buy something electronic at a good price point, it is almost a one hour commute to the Hilo Walmart or a 90 minute drive to Kona. Think about the people living in Ka'u. They probably have to really travel far to get the kinds of consumer goods that we in urban environment who benefit from the presence of big box and other discount retailers take for granted. I am thankful that I live near the new Walmart and other discount retailers (like Ross).



We are essentially getting the low prices not only Wal-Mart but others on the backs of slave labor in the third world. In my esteemed opinion terrorism and the slave labor in the third world are interconnected.Thus in reality we SHOULD be caring where these products come from.

I think with today's global economy and the outsourcing of many jobs to the 3rd world, we almost cannot avoid it. And while we should be caring about where these products come from, the nature of American consumerism is the fact that these kinds of issues are the farthest things on our mind when it comes time for us to shop.


... we have blinders on and don't see the bigger picture. We ALL are caught in the low price web like it or not.

I don't think low price points are a web; they are only an option made available to consumers if price is the main criteria on which one is to buy a product. For some people price is not as important as service for example. In that case they may prefer to buy the same type of item from a boutique store or specialty retailer. Other people prefer not to shop at all in a brick and motar store and choose to buy from online or mail order retailers. For them that is more convenient than battling the crowds for the latest bargain at Walmart or somewhere else.

[Albert]

I shall certainly shop at Wal-Mart, look forward to leaving Sears out of my life as a result. But yep, I'll probably still stop in at Ross (if it survives the competition).

[mel]

The Capitol of Hilo.... (http://macpro-hawaii.buzznet.com/user/?p=1&id=445785) yes... It's Walmart. Just about everyone on the East side of the Big Island shops there.

[helen]

Where does wal-mart sit? They come and settle into ANY town they want. lay waste, and no one can do a darn t'ing aboudit!

I think you are over rating Wal-Mart. One city on the mainland voted not to have a Wal-Mart there.

And as far as the location at Keeaumoku, that area sat idle for around a decade. Sure there were plans but it all fell through.

[Miulang]

Yes, there have been cities up here on the mainland (more than one) that have tried to stop large chains like WalMart from coming into the community. My SO's mother lives in a little town in northwest NC (not far from the town where the Atlanta Olympic Games bomber, Erich Rudolph, was captured.) The WalMart in Murphy, NC is open 24x7 and is the focus of the community life.

Yes, WalMart provides jobs; but it also has been the subject of numerous law suits about unequal opportunities for women and buying non-American goods.

In a global economy, you rarely will find anything manufactured 100% in the US anymore; but it's reprehensible that a company like WalMart should make it profits off the backs of its employees.

Miulang

[Konaguy]

When we were up in Vancouver BC this summer one of the outlying
areas of Vancouver changed the land use density making it impossible
for any new big box chains to come to their area. Specifically
they changed how big the square footage of the new stores could be.

[Konaguy]

To me I have no beef with other big box retailers like Costco, Home Depot,
Lowes,Kmart.Just with the cutthroat business tactics Wal-Mart uses
to get a get ahead [They are the largest company in the world].

[kimo55]

I think you are over rating Wal-Mart. One city on the mainland voted not to have a Wal-Mart there.

And as far as the location at Keeaumoku, that area sat idle for around a decade. Sure there were plans but it all fell through.


many cities in america vote no walmart

Just because land sits empty or unused doesn't mean it then should have a huge mausoleum with no setback erected there, esp when that mausoleum also is a walmart.

The kaka'ako pump house sits idle for many years. So with your reasoning, it should be torn down and a starbucks put up there.

You have got to start thinking less simplistically than this!

[Miulang]

To me I have no beef with other big box retailers like Costco, Home Depot,
Lowes,Kmart.Just with the cutthroat business tactics Wal-Mart uses
to get a get ahead [They are the largest company in the world].

At least "multinational" companies like Costco and SBUX offer great bennies to their employees...including the part timers. The turnover rate at both companies is extremely low compared to other comparable companies. So I guess the workers at both those companies are pretty content. I know as much as WalMart would like to portray itself as an equal opportunity employer, the reality is that women and noncaucasians have a hard time cracking into top management.

Miulang

[mel]

many cities in america vote no walmart

And many other cities do. WalMart must be doing something right to have a store in nearly if not all 50 states of the U.S. and other places in the world. WalMart's success (and no one can deny that they are one of America's great success stories) can be attributed to customer loyalty as millions of consumers have voted to keep WalMart in their communities simply through their very own wallets. Customers love the product mix, the prices and the convenience. Seems to be one of the keys to WalMart's success.

Like anything else, WalMart will always have their critics and people who absolutely don't like them.... just like how there are people who either love or hate Microsoft or Apple. Same thing.

People keep these firms alive through the choices they make with their wallets.

There is nothing wrong with WalMart being a big successful company. Just like Microsoft. Just like General Motors, Ford. Big American companies that have been successful and provide consumers with the products they want.


Just because land sits empty or unused doesn't mean it then should have a huge mausoleum with no setback erected there, esp when that mausoleum also is a walmart.

The 10 acre Keeaumoku Street superblock had been laid fallow for more than 15 years after many small businesses were displaced, and a public roadway sold to a Japanese developer for the building of some kind of condo-office complex. This happened in the late 1980s.... In the early 1990s the Japanese bubble economy burst, the company who wanted to develop the property sold it off and a number of businesses put forth plans to develop it into either a movie theater complex, a Home Depot store, and I think a KMart and another office building. The empty land was an eyesore with rubbish strewn about, the entire block fenced off and some junk stored there.

Now that giant trac of land has been put into good use and the community will greatly benefit.


The kaka'ako pump house sits idle for many years. So with your reasoning, it should be torn down and a starbucks put up there.

In the case of the Kakaako Pump House, the building was put on some national registry of historic places. It has been vacant since the mid 1950s. No one could tear it down and replace it with something else because of its protected status.

The property on which the new WalMart sits had nothing on it. All the buildings on the property were torn down many years ago to make room for the original development. The property already was zoned commercial so getting something started was not a problem, and people only reacted after the fact... too late.

Back to the pump house, there are groups that are trying to decide what to do with that property. Just today there was some kind of clean up of the place to spruce it up. No one ever cleaned up the vacant WalMart property before WalMart started construction.

[kimo55]

"And many other cities do. "

ok I wanna know what cities knowingly conciously invite walmart to town that do not NOW regret it?

and more importantly, this also begs the question; is it NOT a point of interest... does it NOT concern you that soooo many refuse a walmart in their town?!


"WalMart must be doing something right to have a store in nearly if not all 50 states of the U.S. and other places in the world. "

ok. stop. right. there. "must be doing something right" is a cliche. It means nothing.

The stockholders may agree with you but not the citizens of hundreds of communities that has seen a walmart move in and destroy all other competition. If competition seems to be too strong, they open up another one nearby. THEN there is NO excuse for the nonthinking public to shop anywhere else. Then, when aaaaalllll (or at least a great percentage) of the competition has disappeared, they close down the bigbox that is the lesser producing of the two. yes. that IS what they do in towns. yes, Of course they can afford to open then close a store. Each location generates millions a day.



"WalMart's success (and no one can deny that they are one of America's great merceneary success stories) "

"can be attributed to customer loyalty "


you missed my point of my latest looong boring diatribe; Loyalty extends just as long as they have the perceived lower prices in town. Another bigbox arrives who may appear to be cheaper, loyalty is traded like a cheap baseball card.

"as millions of consumers have voted to keep WalMart in their communities simply through their very own wallets."

and i point out that is one of the sad states of contemporary "civilisation"

"Like anything else, WalMart will always have their critics and people who absolutely don't like them.... just like how there are people who either love or hate Microsoft or Apple. Same thing."


No, it is most definitely not "just like Microsoft or Apple" The angry vehemence many feel toward WM after they learn of the criminally deceptive business practices employed by them (esp. when they experience it firsthand) (read the foregoing links...)and witness the decimation they inflict on communities, this anger and reaction is absolutely unprecedented.
There is NOTHING to compare it to.

It is as if you compare kava to arsenic. The slightly friendly rivalry apple and MS people have is nothing compared to our subject at hand.



"The 10 acre Keeaumoku Street superblock empty land was an eyesore with rubbish strewn about, the entire block fenced off and some junk stored there."

and it will soon be an eyesore with rubbish strewn about and rubbish filling the shelves within.

To the aesthetically inclined of us, the location is NOW an eyesore.



"Now that giant trac of land has been put into good use and the community will greatly benefit."

That is a subjective judgement at best, of course.

"In the case of the Kakaako Pump House, the building was put on some national registry of historic places. It has been vacant since the mid 1950s. No one could tear it down and replace it with something else because of its protected status."

You don't know the state very well, do you. Do not kid yourself.

This is allowed to crumble. This reprehensible state of affairs should be unacceptable. But once again, local gov'n't has the masses fooled, haven't they!?

after dozens of viable business plans submitted to the state, they repeatedly refuse to allow this area to flourish, going straight against their lie on the web site saying; we support any business venture to revitalize the kaka'ako area.
So whadda we got? an historic structure that is protected?! How!? It is allowed to slowly crumble down. Why?! the state sez: "We must slowwwwllllyyyy approach this prospect. " Why!? Hope you know. If not, well....


Witness the blame shifting and lies on the site:
"The pace of private development activity in Kakaako has slowed over the past decade, a direct result of the economic climate and market conditions in the State. HCDA has endeavored to find ways of encouraging and facilitating development projects in Kakaako's mauka area, which include residential and commercial use."


and

" The HCDA has encouraged the development of commercial projects in Kakaako that will serve the State and contribute to Hawaii's economy."


Ooooh looka that; we are here to serve the state!

http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/99annual/hcda.html


"The property on which the new WalMart sits had nothing on it. "


But it could have had a great village scene; old style shops and hula shows. could have been something very viable. BUT since the state and the C&C are not BUSINESS, but rather, Government, this is what results.

"Back to the pump house, there are groups that are trying to decide what to do with that property. "


There have been MAAANNNNY business concerns submitting their input to the state on this, ALL for naught. skeptical?! Do a search. If you dare. It is frightening. better not. your brain will implode.


if ANY of this subject is important to anyone, they will read the preceding links...
and others thay may appear on the walmart subject.
Woops heres anodda one...


http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5729

[mel]

Kimo 55, I can see you just totally hate WalMart and I will not debate you any further on this. We are going to have to agree to disagree on all points on this between you and I and leave it at that. What I hope is that you never ever walk into and shop at any WalMart ever since you just absolutely hate them so much. You are in the minority on this and I am sure millions of consumers will continue to shop at WalMart as long as a store is nearby. The Keaaumoku Street WalMart will become a successful and much needed retailer in town. The traffic and revenues it will generate will bear this out.

[kimo55]

Kimo 55, I can see you just totally hate WalMart... you just absolutely hate them so much. You are in the minority on this.
I will not debate you any further on this...


oh, boooo! Just when i was starting to be entertained by this discussion and exchange of scintillating information! Don't go!


The Keaaumoku Street WalMart will become a successful and much needed retailer in town. The traffic and revenues it will generate will bear this out.


Now waidaminute! You don't own a crystal ball to see into the future, I know that, for a fact.


I know you want it, sooooo.... here's some stuff from various "minority" web sites:

Walmart has been caught instructing their employees how to apply for public assistance so they can keep their wages down. Which makes Walmart a state subsidized business. Envy of Commies everywhere no doubt. Oh, and not to mention their refusal to even allow employees to discuss unions, their discriminatory promotional practices, and their open patronage of sweat shops.

One word Walmart hates? UNION! Probably because they run a operation that is exactly what unions are for. I'm serious; they showed all us employees this propaganda video, demonizing unions. It even mentioned this Walmartsucks.com site in it's former glory. It even had scary music. It reminded me of the way Hitler controled his people. Even more hillarious, CNN did a report saying how bad Wal*Mart's benifets are. The next day right by the time clock there was a full page letter saying, "CNN's report was mis-leading". We need to face it , It's time for a union. Someone has to get control of this giant before it get's any bigger. Alot of the stuff I've seen go on would never happen if we had a union. I know all about the downsides of a Union. But the plus side will be justification. This truly is the only way we can strike back.



My feelings towards Wal-Mart would properly be characterized as righteous animosity. The Beast of Bentonville is the scourge of the global economy; leader of the "race to the bottom"; and poster-child for capitalism run amok. Half of the ten richest people on the planet are Waltons while nearly 50% of their employees are categorized by the U. S. Government as "working poor". Wal-Mart is a cancerous vampire metastasizing around the world sucking the financial blood from an area then leaving the hulls of crushed competitors and a sprawling blight of "dark stores" in it's wake.



"Our priorities are that we want to dominate North America first, then South America, and then Asia, and then Europe," Wal-Mart's President and CEO David Glass told USA Today business reporter Lorrie Grant November 10, 1999.

[kimo55]

you just totally hate WalMart... you just absolutely hate them so much.


wellll, here's the aspect I like about them; as a businessperson, and as a capitalist, too, I find them to be a facinating study in lessons ON capitalism. It is prime textbook example of american capitalism gone amok. And I find much entertainment in the stories. many lessons to be learned.

And here's a really interesting web site on it...

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html


This may shock you. Or it just may inure yourself to walmarts modus operandi and you will become even more of an adherent.
Follow your own moral compass.

[kimo55]

here are major points one must know on shopping at Sprawlmart:


"Wal-Mart has also lulled shoppers into ignoring the difference between the price of something and the cost. Its unending focus on price underscores something that Americans are only starting to realize about globalization: Ever-cheaper prices have consequences.

"We want clean air, clear water, good living conditions, the best health care in the world--yet we aren't willing to pay for anything manufactured under those restrictions."



basic supplier story at Wallmart:
Levi clothing; a company whose brand has long been an American icon. After doing business with walmart:
It's products: cheap. Cheap and disappointing to find labeled with Levi Strauss's name. After a few months of doing business with WM; Levi had another announcement: It is closing its last two U.S. factories, and laying off more than 2,500 workers, or 21% of its workforce. A company that 22 years ago had 60 clothing plants in the United States--and that was known as one of the most socially reponsible corporations on the planet--will, by 2004, not make any clothes at all. It will just import them.

In the end, of course, it is we as shoppers who have the power, and who have given that power to Wal-Mart. Part of Wal-Mart's dominance, part of its insight, and part of its arrogance, is that it presumes to speak for American shoppers.

[kimo55]

Amaze your friends! Generate new enemies!
....with our...
Fun facts about Sprawl-mart!


********

Wal-Mart, by pushing out competition, eliminates three jobs for every two jobs it creates.

Wal-Mart states 70% of its workers are full-time, but "full time" is 28 hours a week, meaning they gross less than $11,000 a year.

Only 38% of Wal-Mart employees are covered by the company healthcare plan because most employees cannot afford the high premiums.

Wal-Mart has been charged with 1,400 child labor violations in Maine alone.

1 million women have filed the largest corporate class action lawsuit ever in the United States against Wal-Mart. 72% of Wal-Mart employees are women, but only 10% of them are managers. Female managers on average make $16,400 less a year than their male counterparts.

Honduran workers making clothing for Wal-Mart, as well as other American companies, can work at a rate of making two shirts a minute, one sleeve every 15 seconds. That’s 1,200 garments a day. They are paid on average $0.70/hour. yes. seventy cents an hour.


Wal-Mart refuses to open its suppliers to independent observers, citing fears or revealing corporate secrets.

Wal-Mart is the largest American importer of Chinese goods. 10% of all Chinese imports to the United States are imported by Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart even established its own global procurement division this year, abandoning the pretense to its traditional "buy American" campaign.

Independent unions are illegal in China and union organizers are regularly imprisoned.

Although Wal-Mart claims it does not use sweatshops, a February 2004 report from the National Labor Committee and China Labor Watch on working conditions at a factory contracted by Wal-Mart in Chang Ping Township in Guangdong province revealed that:
• Workers were paid less than the legal minimum and worked longer hours than legally allowed
• Workers were trained to answer prepared questions and paid them a bonus for remembering them correctly during visits by Wal-Mart inspectors
• Emergency fire exits and medical boxes were normally locked, but the Chinese managers unlocked them ahead of inspections
• Time cards had been doctored.

*
What's up with Wal-Mart?
There are three essential problems with how Wal-Mart operates:
Bad for human rights abroad:
Wal-Mart perpetuates the use of sweatshop and child labour abroad by constantly demanding unrealistically low prices from its suppliers, leading to wage cuts.

Bad for workers domestically:
While Wal-Mart is the largest employer in North America, the low wages that it pays means low levels of total income. The fact that the largest class action lawsuit in US history is being launched by 1.6 million former and current Wal-Mart employees is very telling.
Bad for all communities:
Aggressive competitiveness and predatory pricing lead to the closure of small businesses. The placement of Wal-Marts on the outskirts of towns pulls people out of the downtown; the result is the formation of a suburb of a city that does not exist. Local businesses are also more likely to re-invest locally, whereas Wal-Mart does not. Wal-Mart is typical of multi-national companies that funnel local capital out of the towns where they operate and back to corporate headquarters. This is the same process we see happening internationally to developing countries.

Q-What about the jobs they create? Aren’t any jobs better than no jobs?
It isn’t about the number of jobs, but more importantly the total income they provide. Wal-Mart employees are often minimum wage and part-time, which does not result in increased total income for the community. Wal-Mart, although providing more jobs, often eats up local jobs that provided greater income.

Q-Isn’t it a good thing we are giving people in the 3rd World jobs?
More often than not, these jobs barely meet basic human needs. They result in an unstable situation in communities where local income is ruled more by the whims of the global market than local needs.

Q- What about people who can’t afford to shop anywhere else?
It’s true people need places to shop where the prices are affordable. At the same time, in the long run, the result is less money being put into a community so Wal-Mart’s don’t really provide a solution at all.

Q- What can people do?
Standing up to the world’s largest retailer is no easy task. There are some actions people can take though to start the ball rolling:
Not shop at Wal-Mart and tell others why.
Get informed about the issues surrounding how Wal-Mart keeps their prices so low. Contact your local members of city, state, and Chambers of Commerce in order to bring in new local and national business standards.
Start letter writing campaigns to Wal-Mart headquarters asking that they allow independent inspections of their supplier companies and that they sign on to international labour codes. According to Michael Blumel, past president of the Nanaimo Chamber of Commerce, 580 Nanaimo businesses closed from March 1998 to March 1999. The following year, 300 shut down. "It's hard to ascertain who did what to whom," says Blumel, who is also a retail consultant and economic-development specialist for small to midsize communities. Wal-Mart's precise role in the demise of Nanaimo's downtown is difficult to pinpoint because an economic downturn and demographic factors such as an increase in young families seeking bargains have also played a major role in the exodus to big-box shopping, Blumel says. "If I estimate, I would say that 20 percent of our small businesses have gone out of business because of Wal-Mart," he says, adding that Nanaimo's Wal-Mart takes away approximately $4 million to $6 million a year from other operators, a number that could easily increase when Wal-Mart moves to a more suitable location, likely in the Woodgrove Mall.” (from <www.ufcw1518.com/news/wal-mart-news/walmart-060101.html>)


One half of Wal-Mart's 720,000 US employees qualify for federal assistance under the American food stamp program.” (from<http://www.homestead.com/perc/files/grades.html>)


Wal-Mart is currently being sued for its treatment of women in what is the largest civil rights class action suit in history, representing 1.6 million former and current Wal-Mart workers. This suit charges that Wal-Mart denies women fair promotions and equal pay. Two-thirds of Wal-Mart employees are women who Wal-Mart pays less than men, refuses opportunities for promotion, and demeans because of their gender.”

http://www.wal-town.com/index.php?go=about

[mel]

Kimo, your hatred of WalMart can be reflected in all the followup posts to my posts and the links you provide us, which I don't have time to read. Come October 17 or whenever the grand opening date is, I along with thousands of other people will stream through the doors of WalMart to take advantage of all the shopping bargains this new store will have to offer Honolulu residents.

As for the naysayers, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to shop there. In fact WalMart is not forcing anyone to shop at their store. People are making their own choices as to whether or not they will shop there. Some will be loyal customers, others will go there because of convenience and many others because of price.

[kimo55]

Kimo, your hatred of WalMart can be reflected in all the followup posts to my posts and the links you provide us, which I don't have time to read.


Waaaaait... if you don't have time to read the links, how do you know the links reflect my hatred of walmart?!

some of the links actually tell of some people's love for walmart!



( really do recommend reading more on walmart; Amazing stuff out there. and at the least, one can be entertained by all the anectdotal experiences, news stories and tales.
besides: it's important to know what one is supporting with one's dollars...)


whenever the grand opening date is, I along with thousands of other people will stream through the doors of WalMart to take advantage of all the shopping bargains this new store will have to offer Honolulu residents.

no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to shop there. WalMart is not forcing anyone to shop at their store.


dass cool. dass cool. fully agree.

[mel]

Well the internet is just full on information overload, some of it good, much of it questionable at the least. While I don't have the time to read and follow through with the links here, they are regardless here, which means that I and anyone else visiting this topic can read them later.

Between you and I, we are slowly making this topic one of the most popular on HawaiiThreads with all the posts going back and forth.

[kimo55]

Well the internet is just full on information overload, some of it good, much of it questionable at the least.

As a "newsie' I do three things often; "confirm, confirm, confirm"


While I don't have the time to read and follow through with the links here, they are regardless here, which means that I and anyone else visiting this topic can read them later.



yep. Hope so!




Between you and I, we are slowly making this topic one of the most popular on HawaiiThreads with all the posts going back and forth.

You da man!

[mel]

72 posts to this topic so far.

[kimo55]

72 posts to this topic so far.


nooooooo, wait...
YEP! 73!

[mel]

For sure this topic will make it to and surpass 100. After that we are in American Idol land. (#74)

[kimo55]

For sure this topic will make it to and surpass 100. After that we are in American Idol land. (#74)

the Nielsen rating on this thread is comparatively high:
approx 742.
to push past a hunnert, we need some of these 700 readers to be writers and chime in....

[Miulang]

This is just a rhetorical question: Is it worse to be unemployed than to work for a company like WalMart and be "underemployed"?

At least if you're unemployed, you can apply for government programs. If you're underemployed, you get squat. I think WalMart's stance on equal rights for their female employees and people of the Third World smacks of the kind of paternalism that was once so pervasive...you know, the belief that women are only working so they can earn "pin money" because they all have husbands who bring in the real money for the family and if you pay a 3rd World worker pennies it's still more than his neighbor earns.

How many of WalMart's hourly workers will now qualify for the new Federal pay law that just was enacted which says that if you earn less than $23,500 you are entitled to overtime pay? Not many, if WalMart doesn't hire full time employees, which is certainly their right. The bottom line is WalMart doesn't care about its workers because it deems most of them expendable. If someone quits, there are 3 more standing in line to take that person's place. And that's the unfortunate fact of life in this country right now. The only time I shop at WalMart is because I have to use a gift card that was given to me; I have to really go out of my way to find a WalMart here in the Seattle area.

I would rather kokua the small local business if I can, but most of the family style businesses have also gone by the wayside. It takes a lot of dedication to keep a family business running and rarely is it about making lots of money. Look in your community: KC Drive Inn just closed down; on Maui, places like Shishido Manju and Suda Store in Kihei have disappeared. Ooka Supermarket will close within the next couple of years to become a senior housing project.

Most of the families who run these businesses have to throw in the towel because we don't support them. We instead "vote with our pocketbooks" and go to the price leaders. I would rather pay a little more to help the little guy out if I can.

There's a little bakery in a neighborhood close to where I live. The owner makes the most delicious cheesecakes and other desserts. He's usually at the front counter, and he always recognizes me and asks how I am and have I gone to the restaurant where I first discovered his cheesecake recently? And I only drop by about every other week! Can any of us say we have those experiences on an everyday basis when we shop?

The same thing happens when I go every now and then to this restaurant that serves Hawaiian style food. They always recognize me and spend time talking to me. Can anyone honestly say that they get the same warm and fuzzies when they're greeted by the cheerful retired person who stands at the front door of WalMart? Doubtful.

There's a saying that's been around for quite awhile now: "Think globally; act locally". Yes, with a world economy now we do have to look at the big picture. But I really pray that that doesn't mean that we are complacent about what this global view is doing to us locally.

Miulang

[mel]

I would rather kokua the small local business if I can, but most of the family style businesses have also gone by the wayside. It takes a lot of dedication to keep a family business running and rarely is it about making lots of money. Look in your community: KC Drive Inn just closed down; on Maui, places like Shishido Manju and Suda Store in Kihei have disappeared. Ooka Supermarket will close within the next couple of years to become a senior housing project.

Most of the families who run these businesses have to throw in the towel because we don't support them. We instead "vote with our pocketbooks" and go to the price leaders. I would rather pay a little more to help the little guy out if I can

In part that may be true of high end, high volume and discount retailers squeezing out the little guys. Been happening for a long time, way before WalMart, Costco and other big boxers arrived.

Many small businesses close because they are family businesses and often times the succeeding generations in that business don't want to take over. Often times the cost is overbrearing upon the small business to keep it going. Other times small business owners have sold out to their competitors or another firm and the business becomes bigger, and if successful sustains itself and grows or gets bought out by another company.

Small business is not only your Mom and Pop retailer. There are service firms, professional firms, businesses consisting of only one person, independent contractors, freight forwarders, charter airlines, and many other businesses.

A lot of that costs that small businesses have had to bear over the years have been brought upon them by government, state government here in Hawaii in particular.

As many know Hawaii has one of the highest taxes in the states and is overregulated with all kinds of mandates that hurt various businesses in the long run.

For example Hawaii is the only state in the nation that has a mandated pre-paid health law requiring all businesses to offer full time employees with a health plan that the businesses themselves have to bear most of the cost.

No other state has this. A health plan should be a benefit of your loyalty and good service to that business, not a right mandated by the state.

There are other costs associated and if you are really interested in reading all about the plight of small business in Hawaii, you can visit the website of Small Business Hawaii (http://www.smallbusinesshawaii.com) where articles from the monthly Small Business News (http://www.smallbusinesshawaii.com/SBHindex.html) are posted.

Or better yet you may want to call Sam Slom, president of Small Business Hawaii and have him explain to you about the plight of small business. Mr. Slom has been an advocate of small business for many, many years. You can even call him on the radio every Thursday morning between 7 and 8 a.m. on KHVH radio, 521-8383.

[Miulang]

"No other state has this. A health plan should be a benefit of your loyalty and good service to that business, not a right mandated by the state."

Unfortunately, Mel, I disagree with you that a health plan should be a benefit of your loyalty as an employee and not a mandated right. I think it's wonderful that Hawaii had the foresight many years ago to force all businesses in the state to enroll their workers in HMSA. My parents, as retirees, are taking advantage of that fact right now. Would you begrudge your parents getting the care that they need?

The main reason I went to grad school was to get a Master's Degree in Health Administration. I want basic health care to be a right of every American, not a privilege. I'm not talking about plastic surgery or liposuction, I'm talking about an annual physical examination and taking care of basic health needs. I'm talking about people on Medicare being able to afford their medications.

The reason why "socialized medicine" as practiced in places like Canada appears to be failing is not because of the system itself, it's because there are people who are wealthy enough to circumvent the checks and balances that are required in a managed healthcare situation. When Canadians are rejected as candidates for surgery in Canada, they saunter across the border where our doctors are more than happy to take their devalued Canadian currency.

You're right about one thing, though. The reason why a lot of family businesses eventually close down is because the next generation thinks it's "too hard" for them to continue and it's easier to make the fast cash and get rid of the responsibility. It's like Craig Watanabe inferred in another thread (the one about being caught in a dilemma as a Sansei), kids today for the most part don't know what hard work is! If our great grandparents and grandparents and parents hadn't worked hard all their lives, would any of us be enjoying what we have today? Each generation tries to raise their kids so they don't have to struggle as much as they (the parents) did.

What makes you think WalMart didn't get all kinds of financial incentives to agree to build at Keeaumoku? Do the mom and pops get the same kinds of breaks? I don't think so.

Miulang

[Konaguy]

For example Hawaii is the only state in the nation that has a mandated pre-paid health law requiring all businesses to offer full time employees with a health plan that the businesses themselves have to bear most of the cost.


I don't see the problem with this mandate. Mel you must be millionaire
if you can afford the standalone medical/dental coverage. Thats what
I would have to get if my employer was not required to offer it.

[kimo55]

I don't see the problem with this mandate.

it is a problem.
many business owners struggle, what with all the aforementioned costs, triple taxing etc. one experiences here in "antismallbusiness hawaii".
This means some small businesses don't give full time hours to as many employees as they would maybe want.

This should not be a responsibility of small business, esp. in Hawaii.
the state should set something like this up, if they want employees to have it given to them.

[Konaguy]

This should not be a responsibility of small business, esp. in Hawaii.
the state should set something like this up, if they want employees to have it given to them.

I don't think having the government do it either would work.
People like Mel would rap it as a excess big government function.
Which leaves the question whose responsibility it is. The employee
can't do it alone, as standalone dental/medical would run you in
the hundreds of dollars per month.

[kimo55]

I don't think having the government do it either would work.
People like Mel would rap it as a excess big government function.
Which leaves the question whose responsibility it is. The employee
can't do it alone, as standalone dental/medical would run you in
the hundreds of dollars per month.


yea... whaddya gonna do?!
see the thing is, if you want a good health plan, and you contact blue cross or shield, and they learn you are in hawaii, UP goes the costs. Same with dental.
eh. for that matter, same with car insurance.


Had a good plan; Golden West dental when I was stuck for a while in Cali. very inexpensive and great choice of dentists.
Same with health insurance and the like; hospitals, dermatologists...
but here, fuggedaboudit!

We are over a barrell.

[mel]

"No other state has this. A health plan should be a benefit of your loyalty and good service to that business, not a right mandated by the state."

Unfortunately, Mel, I disagree with you that a health plan should be a benefit of your loyalty as an employee and not a mandated right. I think it's wonderful that Hawaii had the foresight many years ago to force all businesses in the state to enroll their workers in HMSA. My parents, as retirees, are taking advantage of that fact right now. Would you begrudge your parents getting the care that they need?

Ah yes, and that is why Hawaii is well known as an anti-business state because of socialistic policies advanced by 40+ years of Democratic "leadership". The cumulative effect of state government socialism has been one of the major factors in contributing to the decline and struggle of not only small businesses, but business in general. Sure there are a lot of businesses still around, but because of regulations, taxes, mandates, etc., everything just costs the consumers as well as the businesses themselves more money. :(



I want basic health care to be a right of every American, not a privilege.

The healthcare system in America is fine as is. We don't need no Clinton/Kerry socialistic welfare programs (and really now, this probably has to be moved to another topic)...... and that is all I have to say for now.

Frankly I am not surprised that most people around here will support socialistic health care since this board is populated by liberal Kerry leaning leftists.



What makes you think WalMart didn't get all kinds of financial incentives to agree to build at Keeaumoku? Do the mom and pops get the same kinds of breaks? I don't think so.

Yes, I am sure all you WalMart haters believe a conspiracy involving the firm lurks at every corner.

[mel]

I don't see the problem with this mandate. Mel you must be millionaire
if you can afford the standalone medical/dental coverage. Thats what
I would have to get if my employer was not required to offer it.

You don't know me. How can you make an assumption?

[craigwatanabe]

What surprizes me is that for as long as I can remember working in the Kakaako area for 21-years and living in Honolulu for over 40 years, there have always been bones being dug up whenever a site was developed, but I've never seen the kind of backlash from the Hawaiian community as I've seen when this Wal-Mart project started. Nobody complained when the HMSA building came up, nor that building that is in forever repair on the corner of Kapiolani and Keeaumoku.

As a matter of fact the Wal-Mart site was previously developed and what was there was such an eyesore and a disgrace to those ancestors buried underneath I'm a bit concerned that these people complaining didn't do anything for the decades these auto repair shops dumped their waste oil and cleaners on their ancestor's bones or those brothels and massage places dishonored the area. There were strip bars and the area was frequented by drunks, drug dealing, prostitution and other forms of urban trash.

If my great great grandparents were buried underneath this kind of filth I would have protested wayyyyyy long before Wal-Mart was even considered there.

I know for a fact that there were bones unearthed at that building at the corner of Ward and Ala Moana (Bank of Hawaii), and at the Gas Company on Kamakee street. As a matter of fact Kakaako was the site of tens of thousands of mass burials with the small pox epidemic many generations ago before that area was developed. To dig and NOT find any bones in the Kakaako area would be more surprizing.

I'm not like Albert where he has no spirital feelings for bones however I do share his resentment towards those who are only now making such a big fuss over their ancestorial bones. They should be thanking the developers of the Wal-Mart site for finding their lost ancestors and should make an effort to repatriate them in a more suitable place of mourning, not that rat-infested and motor oil stained place being redeveloped into something a bit more pleasing on the senses than what was there before.

I'm all for honoring the dead but for what that area became and what it is now, I think its' a better place but I'd still want my bones reburied somewhere else regardless. Wal-Mart should pay to have those bones relocted in an inspiring place to those living to care for their ancestors' remains. America honors it's war dead with places like Punchbowl and Arlington National cemetary.

Diamond Head would be a great location for such a cemetary for repatriated Hawaiian ancestrial bones. It's rim walls would protect it's departed from urban sprawl and flooding from rain. It's proximity to the ocean and it's towering height over Honolulu would make it an ideal memorial that can be seen for miles as well as around the world because of it's image. The lookout could become the place of ceremonial rebirth and a place of solitude for both the living and the dead.

I'd rather pay a dollar to visit and honor this memorial rather than the tourist attraction it has become and it's another way Hawaiians can regain such an important Hawaiian landmark.

[craigwatanabe]

You don't know me. How can you make an assumption?


I think we're getting away from the subject of bones at Wal-Mart but since we're at this topic in this thread, I must mention that I used to be a small business owner in Hawaii and although I'm glad to have a health plan mandated for me, as a business owner I had a very hard time subsidizing health plans for my 11 employees while having to pay for TDI insurance and all the rest of the hidden costs of business.

The problem with my business was that I couldn't pass the costs over to my customers because I wouldn't be able to compete effectively in that market. I had to absorb the costs and it resulted in very little profit margins. Those profit margins determined my tax liability so in a way I was paying less tax because more of my gross income was being diverted to paying for someone elses medical coverage. And since I was mandated to make those payments, there was very little left for end of the year bonuses. I ended up taking my employees out to dinner on my tab with what little I earned as a result of creating and managing my company.

Now getting on the subject of Wal-Mart versus the Mom and Pop stores, from a tax perspective, Wal-Mart will be hiring mostly younger able bodied people who are in a higher tax bracket than Mom and Pop so the tax revenue will be greater just from that fact alone. Wal-Mart has deep pockets meaning they can finance health care costs better than Mom and Pop as well as other benefits such as vacation, sick leave, educational subsidies and other benefits granted by a larger employer.

In other words Wal-Mart will take care of their employees' needs better than Mom and Pop could ever do. Wal-Mart will also create more jobs than Mom and Pop could ever commit to. More jobs means the government gets more taxes and less subsidy recipients. With more tax dollars in the general fund, our legislators can direct more funds to greater causes like education and human services while reducing those on subsidies.

Mom and Pop may have been a tradition, but it's an expensive burden on society because they provide limited jobs and thus miniscule tax revenue. Mom and Pop cannot provide for their employees in the form of benefits the way Wal-Mart can.

When it comes to putting food on the dinner table, keeping my kids well and paying for their education, Wal-Mart takes care of it's employees. Mom and Pop wants you to open the store, keep it clean, transact it's goods, balance the cash register receipts, close the store, and paint the facade for below minimum wage and expect you to do it without a paid vacation, paid sickleave and paid healthcare. They tell you not to report a safety infraction because they can't afford the TDI insurance increase in their premiums for making a TDI report. They tell you if you want more money, then to work Sundays for half day.

People looking for jobs embrace businesses like Wal-Mart because it's an equal-opportunity employer, government loves Wal-Mart because it brings in tax revenue and addresses public health and safety by improving the land around the building. Shoppers love Wal-Mart because the prices are cheaper than anything Mom and Pop can sell.

People hate Mom and Pop stores because they'd rather hire their nephew than you, government hate Mom and Pop stores because whatever personal income is derived is already taxed at a reduced rate simply because of Mom and Pop's age so there is less tax collected. Shoppers hate Mom and Pop stores because there is little selection available on the shelves and the prices are higher because Mom and Pop cannot wholesale buy the way Wal-Mart can.

The only thing Mom and Pop has over Wal-Mart is nostalgia. The problem with nostalgia is that it doesn't pay for your health coverage, it doesn't put food on the table for your family, it doesn't bring in enough tax revenue to take care of our needy on subsidies, or repave Kapiolani Blvd, or pay our government workers like police, fire, ambulance, trash.

We live in a modern world that keeps evolving. We cannot live in the past where it was simpler and less complex. More people are depending on government services, who'll pay for them? Us the taxpayers. How do we pay taxes? We work. For whom? Businesses. How do we get more people off government subsidies while raising more tax revenue without killing the business? We employ those on subsidies. What will that do? When they work they don't need subsidy tax dollars. When they work they pay taxes that increase tax revenue. More tax revenue means less tax dollars collected per individual because there are more taxpayers to share the burden. Less tax burden means more disposable income. More disposable income means greater spending power which benefits the businesses you shop at. Successful businesses ultimately mean lower consumer prices, greater spending ablilty, and a better life for the consumer. Consumer confidence and spending go up and guess what are the indicators of a healthy economy?

One thing Wal-Mart cannot do that has hurt the Bush administration is to out source it's cashiers and stock clerks to an overseas company, so jobs created stay in the borders of the U.S.

Sounds like republican gibberish? Heck it's capitalism and it's the structure that forms the basis for our society. It sounds republican because republicans embrace this economic model. What is your other choice if you cannot work? WELFARE! And who embraces that model of government subsidies by taxing the rich (which by the way fuel our economy). You tax the rich, they no longer remain rich. And when they're no longer rich, who will pay those taxes now that there are no more rich people to tax?

Wal-Mart won't make you rich, but it'll keep you off welfare and keep your family fed and healthy. From a family and economic perspective, Wal-Mart is a good thing.

[Mocha]

I don't think people "hate" Mom & Pop stores. True some of them do charge more for items, but the more personal service they give to people is worth the extra money...and some mega stores have pushed out the Mom & Pop places, there used to be a very nice kiosk that served GOOD tasting coffee in Kahala Mall...then came Starbucks...no more kiosk! So now I order coffee on-line from small breweries on the mainland. :eek:

[craigwatanabe]

You're right, they/I don't hate Mom and Pop stores. I should have said "preferred" Maybe Wal-Mart can secretly buy out these hole in the walls and rename them WM-Superette and still pass on the bulk purchase savings while hiding behind the facade of a small time store. Now that would be cool!

BTW I hate Starbucks coffee. They burn it! I have tasted better coffee at Columbia Inn in Kaimuki. This younger generation drinking their Latte don't have a clue as to what a good cup of Java should taste like. When you pour in 1/3 cream into your coffee it ain't coffee, it's coffee-flavored cream.

Sorry I'll stick to a good cup of black diner coffee, the way it's supposed to taste.

[kimo55]

You're right, they/I don't hate Mom and Pop stores. I should have said "preferred" Maybe Wal-Mart can secretly buy out these hole in the walls and rename them WM-Superette and still pass on the bulk purchase savings while hiding behind the facade of a small time store. Now that would be cool!

and true to keeping with sprawlmart deception!

[craigwatanabe]

it's not a deception, they're actually doing it :eek:

[kimo55]

Wal-Mart has deep pockets meaning they can finance health care costs better than Mom and Pop as well as other benefits such as vacation, sick leave, educational subsidies and other benefits granted by a larger employer.

In other words Wal-Mart will take care of their employees' needs better than Mom and Pop could ever do.


this is a fallacy.

quoting;

In some testimony I read, payroll personnel stated they were told by store managers to go into the payroll system and "erase" overtime hours of some employees, or to show break times for employees, even if they took no break, to keep their payroll budget in line.

In other cases, managers told employees to clock out, and then called them back to their department to do additional work. Or, asked them to come in early, and then would not permit them to clock in for a couple of hours.

Behavior like this is not just illegal, it's morally bankrupt.



Wal-Mart will also create more jobs than Mom and Pop could ever commit to.



this also is a fallacy.

Wal-Mart, by pushing out competition, eliminates three jobs for every two jobs it creates.



More jobs means the government gets more taxes and less subsidy recipients. With more tax dollars in the general fund, our legislators can direct more funds to greater causes like education and human services while reducing those on subsidies.



yea. they are great for the economy:

Walmart has been caught instructing their employees how to apply for public assistance so they can keep their wages down.



Mom and Pop may have been a tradition, but it's an expensive burden on society because they provide limited jobs and thus miniscule tax revenue. Mom and Pop cannot provide for their employees in the form of benefits the way Wal-Mart can.



wow.
Craig. You should work for the Walmart PR.media liaison dept.



When it comes to putting food on the dinner table, keeping my kids well and paying for their education, Wal-Mart takes care of it's employees.



try taking a look at the web sites that recount in first person how these employees are taken care of.



People looking for jobs embrace businesses like Wal-Mart because it's an equal-opportunity employer,



another fallacy

They were using Illegal Aliens in their stores. This problem is probably corrected now since the big publicity shake up on it, but Walmart was willing to break the law to save money.
I quote:


Wal-Mart: An Equal Opportunity Exploiter


Just when you think Wal-Mart couldn't exploit its employees any more, you find out they've been preying on another group of vulnerable workers. A grand jury is investigating Wal-Mart for its role in exploiting undocumented workers who clean Wal-Mart stores.*


"We Czechs are willing to sacrifice and work hard, but we definitely weren't earning enough money," said Pavel, one of the detained workers who told the New York Times (11/5/03) he worked every night for eight months without a night off, overtime pay or health benefits.


*Wal-Mart had profits last year of $8 billion and the CEO received $18 million in total compensation.

On Oct. 23, government immigration officials arrested 250 alleged undocumented immigrants at 61 Wal-Mart stores in 21 states. Almost all the workers were employed by contractors to provide overnight cleaning services. Ten were Wal-Mart employees recently hired away from contractors.

Federal officials said that wiretapped conversations suggested that Wal-Mart executives knew the contractors were using undocumented workers. This comes several years after 13 Wal-Mart cleaning subcontractors pleaded guilty to illegal hiring practices. Wal-Mart could face criminal charges and possible fines of up to $10,000 per illegal worker.


In nearly 40 lawsuits across the country, Wal-Mart faces charges from forcing their employees to work overtime without pay....



Shoppers hate Mom and Pop stores because there is little selection available on the shelves and the prices are higher because Mom and Pop cannot wholesale buy the way Wal-Mart can.


Walmart does not only buy wholesale. They contract to china for knockoffs when name brands here are not willing to cut their profits to a few percentage points, which many do, reducing jobs or forcing the company out of business. Read the web sites for allll the examples of this.



The only thing Mom and Pop has over Wal-Mart is nostalgia.



it is a sad day when all these little stores we grew up with have and had only one thing to offer, in retrospect; nostalgia.
sad empty heart and memory, that.



The problem with nostalgia is that it doesn't pay for your health coverage, it doesn't put food on the table for your family, it doesn't bring in enough tax revenue to take care of our needy on subsidies, or repave Kapiolani Blvd, or pay our government workers like police, fire, ambulance, trash.

One thing Wal-Mart cannot do that has hurt the Bush administration is to out source it's cashiers and stock clerks to an overseas company, so jobs created stay in the borders of the U.S.



No they simply outsource everything else. And all the jobs are in China at a buck an hour. American jobs are decimated via the walmart way of doing business.

[kimo55]

Wal-Mart will take care of their employees' needs better than Mom and Pop could ever do.

Mom and Pop wants you to open the store, keep it clean, transact it's goods, balance the cash register receipts, close the store, and paint the facade for below minimum wage and expect you to do it without a paid vacation, paid sickleave and paid healthcare. They tell you not to report a safety infraction because they can't afford the TDI insurance increase in their premiums for making a TDI report. They tell you if you want more money, then to work Sundays for half day.

People looking for jobs embrace businesses like Wal-Mart because it's an equal-opportunity employer

The only thing Mom and Pop has over Wal-Mart is nostalgia.



read anything from this:

http://www.ufcw.org/issues_and_actions/walmart_workers_campaign_info/worker_testimony/index.cfm

and you soon will be yearning for the nostalgic old days.

[Miulang]

Ah yes, and that is why Hawaii is well known as an anti-business state because of socialistic policies advanced by 40+ years of Democratic "leadership". The cumulative effect of state government socialism has been one of the major factors in contributing to the decline and struggle of not only small businesses, but business in general. Sure there are a lot of businesses still around, but because of regulations, taxes, mandates, etc., everything just costs the consumers as well as the businesses themselves more money. :(




The healthcare system in America is fine as is. We don't need no Clinton/Kerry socialistic welfare programs (and really now, this probably has to be moved to another topic)...... and that is all I have to say for now.

Frankly I am not surprised that most people around here will support socialistic health care since this board is populated by liberal Kerry leaning leftists.



Yes, I am sure all you WalMart haters believe a conspiracy involving the firm lurks at every corner.


Thank you, Mel, for showing your true Republican colors. Enough said.

Miulang

[pzarquon]

Obviously Kimo is on a roll, here, but I find his citation of various charges of failing to pay overtime and undocumented workers somewhat entertaining.

One, when you're talking about sample size, obviously a company with a million employees will have more issues in dispute than a company with four employees. Also, as Craig noted, given the built-in nepotism that drives most family-run businesses, the likelihood of anyone filing grievances or lawsuits against someone who's probably a relative or friend is pretty slim.

Two, I'd wager the unassailable, honorable, poor, pitiable "mom and pop" store is just as likely to be fudging numbers and slipping things under the table. Ms. Kobashigawa on Lime Street in Mo`ili`ili might very well have a rule against hiring haoles, but that's not likely to bring the Labor Department in. Neither is Cafe Koapakalolo in Chinatown, despite the fact that the owner's three minor children are working in the kitchen. How about Mr. Wong of Akamai Carpentry LLC, who pays all his employees in cash, thus avoiding pesky things like insurance and overtime altogether?

WalMart is a big target, and easy to hit. And there are definitely big geopolitical issues involved in whether it is a "good" company, and whether "returning value to shareholders" is as worthy a definition of "good" as is "making the world a better place." But while a mom and pop makes for great David & Goliath feature copy, I'd be careful about putting them up on a pedestal.

I don't exactly worship or praise WalMart, but I shop there. As someone mentioned earlier, it's not a matter of brand loyalty or pro-capitalist idealism, it's a matter of simple economics -- and yes, if BobMart suddenly sprung up, charging 30 percent less for toilet paper and baby clothes, you bet your sweet bippy I'd drive right past Sam Walton's castle to shop there instead.

And yes, I will happily pay a premium for better service, and do in a few instances. Lex Brodie's is taking me to the cleaners on labor costs and who knows what else, but I have such a good relationship with some of the folks there, I'd rather deal with them than someplace cheaper but less inviting.

What has struck me more often than not, though, when shopping around various jobs, is that a lot of local "small business" - despite being beset on all sides by big-box retailers and other evils - aren't trying very hard at all to earn my business. In fact, when trying to find one vendor for a $70,000 job last year, it was all I could do to get four out of six companies to return our calls.

[Mocha]

Again thanks to Kimo reading some of the comments of former WalMart workers...they can't all be biased. BTW doesn't Starbucks "own" or have something to do with Jamba Juice...and here I like Jamba Juice! But again going on principles...I won't support a company that pushes out the little guy. :(

[Miulang]

BTW doesn't Starbucks "own" or have something to do with Jamba Juice...and here I like Jamba Juice! But again going on principles...I won't support a company that pushes out the little guy. :(

As of this date, SBUX doesn't own JambaJuice yet. SBUX does own Seattle's Best Coffee and Torrefazione Coffee and Tazo Tea. The only reason I know this is because I am one of those evil, capitalist shareholders. I happen to like SBUX's treatment of employees (bennies even for part time baristas, including health insurance and day care). The one thing I wish they would be a little more conscious of is what their buying practices are doing to people in the countries where they buy their coffee. However, they have made a token gesture with their "Free Trade" line of coffees. They also don't have a very good record of having minorities in top management, but every year at the shareholder's meeting, we bring these things up and Howard Schultz (the CEO) and his henchpeople promise to do better the next year. SBUX also gives away quite a bit of money to community based programs and their employees also participate in many community activities.

Jamba's a pretty cool company, too. When their first store opened up on Maui last year, they had a promotion where if you brought in a 10 lb bag of rice, they would give you a coupon for a free drink (not a bad deal, since some of those Jamba drinks, when you load up on all the extras, can be very pricey). They then turned around and donated the rice to the Maui Food Bank.

Companies (even multinational ones) that give back to the communities in which they have stores are OK in my book, in the same way that mom and pop businesses are a true part of a community.

It will be interesting to see how much money WalMart gives away in charitable contributions to 501(c)(3)s in the Honolulu area (they do give out grants to children's welfare organizations up here) once they have built their store. If they do that, then I might grudgingly call them at least a "responsible" neighbor.

Miulang

[Miulang]

No they simply outsource everything else. And all the jobs are in China at a buck an hour. American jobs are decimated via the walmart way of doing business.

BTW Kimo: It's not just the manufacturing jobs that are being outsourced now. The next time you call customer service at say, HP, ask the cheerful agent where s/he is located. If they are not lying (and some call centers overseas train their employees to lie about their locations just so they can fool people like me), the person lives in Bombay or somewhere in India.

They are also outsourcing critical programming jobs everywhere in this country. Where once highly educated foreign nationals had to struggle to obtain their H-1 visas, now American companies (MicroSquishy included) make no bones about having Indian employees, except that they don't have to bring them to this county anymore...they have built multiple campuses for their Indian programmers.

The saddest part of outsourcing is that a lot of the time the people being outsourced are Americans who are forced to train the people who will replace them in India or Bangladesh. So while our jobless rates continues to verge on the obscene, the economies of many other countries are thriving because of the bucks we're infusing into their economies. Information technology, especially programming, used to be a highly prized skillset. Nowadays, that skillset is being devalued because many American technology companies realize they can have the same braintrust for far less money if they move away from this country.

Miulang

[Konaguy]

You don't know me. How can you make an assumption?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist that that you hate big government.
You would rather have everyone fend for themselves. That is at least
my view of all you have written.

[Konaguy]

BTW Kimo: It's not just the manufacturing jobs that are being outsourced now. The next time you call customer service at say, HP, ask the cheerful agent where s/he is located.


I called up Verizon DSL Tech support and the guy I spoke to sounded
like he was in in India.He also made references that lead me to believe
that he was there also.

[Konaguy]

Wal-Mart won't make you rich, but it'll keep you off welfare and keep your family fed and healthy. From a family and economic perspective, Wal-Mart is a good thing.


Could you feed yourself working 28 hours a week ? that is what most Wal-Mart
employees work per week.

[Miulang]

What has struck me more often than not, though, when shopping around various jobs, is that a lot of local "small business" - despite being beset on all sides by big-box retailers and other evils - aren't trying very hard at all to earn my business. In fact, when trying to find one vendor for a $70,000 job last year, it was all I could do to get four out of six companies to return our calls.

The main reason why those mom and pop businesses don't seem to want your business is because they don't have staffs full of MBA's telling them that in order to survive, they have to be aggressive and go after your business. For these guys, who have only known hard work and dealing with their customers on a one-to-one basis, what do they know about customer relationship management except that a man's handshake is as good as his word? The disconnect is putting the small businessperson at a distinct disadvantage unless they have people who work for them (maybe an MBA grandson or daughter) who understand the new business economy. These are the small businesses that tend to do fairly well and can compete pretty evenly with the big guys. The value add some of these small businesses bring is that "personal touch" that a lot of large non-family run corporations have no idea how to instill into their corporate culture.

Miulang

[kimo55]

People looking for jobs embrace businesses like Wal-Mart because it's an equal-opportunity employer, government loves Wal-Mart because it brings in tax revenue and addresses public health and safety by improving the land around the building. Shoppers love Wal-Mart because the prices are cheaper than anything Mom and Pop can sell.



"...staying in town to be reinvested locally, the money is hauled off to Bentonville, either to be used as capital for conquering yet another town or simply to be stashed in the family vaults (the Waltons, by the way, just bought the biggest bank in Arkansas).





It’s our world Why should we accept this? Is it our country, our communities, our economic destinies-or theirs? Wal-Mart’s radical remaking of our labor standards and our local economies is occurring mostly without our knowledge or consent. Poof-there goes another local business. Poof-there goes our middle-class wages. Poof-there goes another factory to China. No one voted for this . . . but there it is. While corporate ideologues might huffily assert that customers vote with their dollars, it’s an election without a campaign, conveniently ignoring that the public’s "vote" might change if we knew the real cost of Wal-Mart’s "cheap" goods-and if we actually had a chance to vote."




People hate Mom and Pop stores because ....

Shoppers hate Mom and Pop stores because....



I have been here my whole life and i NEVER met one person who: "hate Mom and Pop stores"...

[Miulang]

Reminds me of the old chestnut from the "Pogo" comic strip: "We have met the enemy, and he is us!"

Shoppers "love" WalMart because they don't take the time to learn what's going on around them and in the world. If they put themselves into the shoes of most WalMart employees, they wouldn't love shopping at WalMart.

Miulang

[pzarquon]

The main reason why those mom and pop businesses don't seem to want your business is because they don't have staffs full of MBA's telling them that in order to survive, they have to be aggressive and go after your business.True, and it's no fault of their own that times are changing as fast as they are. Fact of the matter is, as I came to discover at my last job (where one of my primary responsibilities was working with vendors), a lot of "mom and pop," local, family small businesses aren't interested in my business. Not neccessarily because they're incompetent, but because for them, the level of business they already have is enough. There's no motivation to "grow their market" or whatever, they just want to get by, keep their current customers happy, and maybe retire someday.

Working as I was with people who do business in Hong Kong, New York, Singapore and the like, a "salesman who doesn't want to sell" was a mind-bogglingly foreign concept, let me tell you.

It's not a long-term strategy, but when you look at the history of the "mom and pop," that's usually not the underlying plan anyway. So the kids don't want to run Hasegawa's General Store. The older generation closes up shop while the younger generation chases their dreams somewhere else.

Apart from the above, though, I also have worked with businesses (and been in restaurants and stores) where the people there seem openly hostileto customers - as if we're ruining their day by being there. That's not acceptible in my book, and I won't shed a tear if that kind of "local business" has to close its doors.

As we've said may times here: They can't compete on price? Then they sure as hell better kick the service up a notch. Only a few places, sadly, meet that challenge.

I have been here my whole life and i NEVER met one person who: "hate Mom and Pop stores"... Selective reading? Craig's already conceded that "hate" was a strong word and clarified himself a bit.

One can certainly "prefer" a mainland chain over a mom and pop. Price is an obvious reason. So is, perhaps, more consistency in their offerings (i.e. no "We'll get another shipment on the next Young Brothers barge, I think..."), a wider selection, and a multitude of other advantages that come with size. Warranties and returns at a mom and pop? Only if you're good friends with the owner!

I shop with both my wallet and my heart, in that I'll balance price with service. So, yeah, I still walk into City Mill at least as often as I do Home Depot, or Flora Dec (are they "local"?) as well as Ross' or WalMart. But I don't condemn successful companies as inherently evil, and I certainly don't give empty "bonus points" to a company whose corporate address is in Honolulu.

Shoppers "love" WalMart because they don't take the time to learn what's going on around them and in the world. More assumptions? I'm very aware of what's going on in the world. I've read dozens of essays about how WalMart does business -- and yes, how it's not always in the best interests of suppliers. I know all about their aggressive stance against unions. (Now that WalMart is really taking hold here in Hawaii, I secretly hope that this is the place where the unionization battle really heats up.) I know lots of communities have fought WalMart, that it's come down to voters taking a stand... I think the folks at Sprawl Busters (http://www.sprawl-busters.com/) are doing a great job, even. Democracy at work.

I could stand to see WalMart taken down a peg or two. I certainly don't love them and worship them. But I shop there. And I think it's ridiculous to think everyone who shops there is ignorant. Some of us know more than we want to know about stretching dollars, and frankly, you have to pick your battles.

[craigwatanabe]

I'm not talking about the profit dollars made and sent to HQ on the mainland, I'm talking about payroll dollars that go into the pockets of it's staff. I'm talking about the excise tax that is levied by the State of Hawaii, I'm talking about property taxes that go into the County's general fund, I'm talking about lease monies (in Hilo) that go to OHA, I'm also talking about those dollars that go to Hawaii Made products that Wal-Mart sells as their policy.

These are real dollars and cents that stay here in Hawaii and fuel our local economy. Corporate greed may seem bad but who the heck cares? Does Wal-Mart give you good value for your hard earned dollar? Does it give you convenience while shopping there? Does it employ our local population creating jobs here in Hawaii?

When you invest your money don't you put it in companies like Vanguard, Smith-Barney, Putnam, GE? These aren't local companies. When you make a good return on your investment you don't call yourself greedy, you call yourself savvy. So these corporate fat cats are getting rich off your purchases. Are they ripping you off with high pricing? No they're not, they're providing a service to you the consumer to purchase goods at a great price, unlike Mom and Pop stores.

If I want to be charitable (and I am) I donate and participate in community service. I didn't earn my paycheck to end up keeping a hole in the wall in business by paying more for goods there instead of a superstore where I can get it cheaper.

If you want to shop at a Mom and Pop sundries store, then go for it. As for me I want to stretch my hard earned buck as far as possible, and spending it at McCully Superette is not my idea of saving money.

I'm sorry but when I was having a hard time when the economy soured, did any hole in the wall come to my aid? No way. Did they drop their prices for the sake of their patrons? No way. And yet they expect me to shop there when the big box retailers come treading in their neighborhood? Forget it.

Some sundries stores only accept cash. I'm sorry but because of that I limit my purchases there to whatever I got in my wallet and it ain't much. Not convenient for me