Budda Bar finds no peace in Waikiki

[pzarquon]

Name proves unlucky as Buddha Bar hits sign snag (http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/11/news/story4.html)
Offended local Buddhists launch a campaign to try to get the Waikiki bar's name changed
Mary Adamski, Honolulu Star-Bulletin, August 11, 2004
Local Buddhists, offended at the use of a revered name, launched a letter-writing campaign to city and state government agencies. City officials said the name choice is beyond their control as constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech. "In my letter, I said a Christian would find it offensive to see a Jesus Bar," said Poranee Natadecha-Sponsel, president of the Hawaii Association of International Buddhists.

[scrivener]

I'm switching into rant mode here, so forgive me.

The whole Buddha Bar thing, I must say, annoys me for two reasons. First, there's just no way the naming of this bar should be taken as any kind of insult to people who practice Buddhist philosophies. Someone is quoted in the Advertiser story as saying that it's as if the bar were named the Jesus Bar or the Christ Bar or something like that.

I won't pretend to speak on behalf of all Christians here, because I'm sure there'd be some offense taken by my fellow believers, but there's just no call for any offense at all. I have attended worship services in bars, and I've been to Christian concerts in night clubs, and there's no doubt in my mind that were Christ on earth today, it's places like bars and clubs that he'd be hanging out. Okay, sure, maybe it profanes something that's spiritually significant to a great number of people in Hawaii, but this is just not something to get worked up about. I'm sure my Buddhist brothers and sisters will agree with me that what really matters is not what someone names a bar, but that there are people out there who need love and compassion, and our energies are better spent aimed toward dealing with these needs.

The second reason I'm annoyed: I'm just about willing to lay down my last fifty dollars of vacation spending-money that some of these people quoted in the article have used the name of Christ as an oath, or said, "Oh, God!" in exasperation, annoyance, exclamation, or even passion. Look, we Christians, who can be trigger-happy when it comes to protesting things that bother us, have to hear the name of our savior used as a curse word countless times a day, and we don't get articles written about it in the newspaper. And the example in the Advertiser article about using the image of Buddha as a decoration? Christians have been seeing this kind of profanity of our sacred icons for centuries.

I say this not to excuse anyone of anything; I'm merely suggesting to people who might be offended by this that maybe now they know how some of the rest of us feel. There's plenty of room for all of us in our multitude of faiths; this means that there's plenty of room, too, for us all to be trivialized, marginalized, and profaned. Welcome to the club!

[pzarquon]

I'm more Buddhist than anything else (which is to say, not religious at all, but if there's any 'philosophy' I end up linked with, it's Buddhism thanks to family), and I agree that this is really no big deal.

Note how in the other article (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Aug/11/ln/ln09a.html) on this debate in the Honolulu Advertiser, even some of the folks who were up in arms ended up pretty much coming to terms with it all and realizing that (1.) no offense was intended, (2.) Buddha doesn't occupy the same theological space in Buddhism that Jesus does in Christianity, and (3.) plenty of both Buddhists and Christians enjoy a good beer now and then. :)

On the other hand... I think it's a bad idea to minimize the fact that this bothers someone who takes Buddhism seriously by saying, "Welcome to the club! We Christians are insulted all the time!" I mean, "Everybody else is doing it" is never a good defense... and let's not forget the fact that - as offended as a Christian might be - he also enjoys the benefit of being part of the dominant and prevailing religion in this country.

People say "Jesus H. Christ"? Cry me a river. Go polish the "In God We Trust" on a quarter and call me in the morning.

I think the comparison to a Jesus Bar is, in a way, actually quite illustrative of this disparity. If I opened up the "Jesus Lounge," with pictures of the Virgin Mary holding a Budweiser and using crosses a swizzle sticks, you bet your sweet bippy I'd be drowned in outrage.

Sure, the Buddha Lounge might just be trying to be cute, trying to infuse a mix of true ethnic flavor with "hey just kidding!" cheeky, campy color, and again, it don't bother me none. But I sure can see where the folks protesting the bar are coming from.

[easTTriver]

I'm switching into rant mode here, so forgive me.

The whole Buddha Bar thing, I must say, annoys me for two reasons. First, there's just no way the naming of this bar should be taken as any kind of insult to people who practice Buddhist philosophies. Someone is quoted in the Advertiser story as saying that it's as if the bar were named the Jesus Bar or the Christ Bar or something like that.

I won't pretend to speak on behalf of all Christians here, because I'm sure there'd be some offense taken by my fellow believers, but there's just no call for any offense at all. I have attended worship services in bars, and I've been to Christian concerts in night clubs, and there's no doubt in my mind that were Christ on earth today, it's places like bars and clubs that he'd be hanging out. Okay, sure, maybe it profanes something that's spiritually significant to a great number of people in Hawaii, but this is just not something to get worked up about. I'm sure my Buddhist brothers and sisters will agree with me that what really matters is not what someone names a bar, but that there are people out there who need love and compassion, and our energies are better spent aimed toward dealing with these needs.

I say this not to excuse anyone of anything; I'm merely suggesting to people who might be offended by this that maybe now they know how some of the rest of us feel. There's plenty of room for all of us in our multitude of faiths; this means that there's plenty of room, too, for us all to be trivialized, marginalized, and profaned. Welcome to the club!

well, there is a segment of population that finds this disrespectful to them. so is it OK then to offend people since there is "plenty of room" to go around? surely, you are not condoning the offending of people.

[Albert]

It is a pretty lame idea, I think, but seems to have paid off big time in publicity.

It made me think of the "Penthouse Club" which opened near the forthcoming Wal-Mart and I wondered how they could get away with that. They didn't. The name has now been changed. But, of course, the original name offended commercial interests (it would be absurd to say "intellectual property" even if it probably applies).

In any case, I don't expect to patronize either establishment.

[scrivener]

On the other hand... I think it's a bad idea to minimize the fact that this bothers someone who takes Buddhism seriously by saying, "Welcome to the club! We Christians are insulted all the time!" I mean, "Everybody else is doing it" is never a good defense... and let's not forget the fact that - as offended as a Christian might be - he also enjoys the benefit of being part of the dominant and prevailing religion in this country.

You're right about the minimizing, and while I don't think that's what I was trying to do, it certainy did sound like it. I think what I was trying to say was that I personally didn't see what the big deal was, even considering things from a Buddhist's perspective. Most Buddhists will tell you what that one person said in the article--while Buddhism may be heavy on iconography, it's not very heavy on idolatry; in fact, the revered Buddha figure himself is typically not worshipped so much as respected.

As for the "benefit of being part of the dominant and prevailing religion in this country," I think that is what I was getting at, in a way. Just as white men must tolerate stereotypical categorization and accept being the only group it's really okay to offend, so Christians have to put up with the same, and I think I was expressing frustration by that. By the way, I'd suggest that the real "dominant and prevailing" religion in America is agnosticism, but that's for another forum.

well, there is a segment of population that finds this disrespectful to them. so is it OK then to offend people since there is "plenty of room" to go around? surely, you are not condoning the offending of people.

Actually, I wasn't, but as I thought about this issue (and a short-lived flame-up at HawaiiStories) this morning during my walk, I realized that yeah, I am condoning the offending of people. The way I see it, there's no telling what's going to offend someone and what's not. And just as I shouldn't expectantly tell someone what should offend him, he shouldn't expectantly tell me what should or shouldn't offend me. Offended by the name of Buddha Bar? I can respect that. Offended by my not being offended by the name of the Buddha Bar? I can respect that too. But let's respect each other and let it go.

The proprieters should be free to offend anyone they want. If enough people are offended, they'll organize and try to keep others away from the establishment, and the proprieters will be out of business. OR enough people will decide they don't have a problem with it and they'll keep the business running. Either way, I say offend away, if that's what you want to do. And if you're offended, do whatever you want within legal boundaries to do something about that offense.

[pzarquon]

It bears noting that protesting via organizing and writing letters - which you state is a perfectly appropriate response, if you're offended - is exactly what put this story on everyone's radar. If that's a good thing, then why "rant mode"? Why annoyed? Kind of moots your earlier points.

Yes, it's everyone's right to be offended, or offended by others being offended, or... Um, I'm getting dizzy.

Where was I? Oh yeah.
The proprieters should be free to offend anyone they want. If enough people are offended, they'll organize and try to keep others away from the establishment, and the proprieters will be out of business. OR enough people will decide they don't have a problem with it and they'll keep the business running.Ah, the free market approach. Hey, I might be an oversensitive PC-brainwashed hippie, but I actually fall back on this one quite a bit. If you don't like Abercrombie & Fitch, don't buy their stuff. If you don't like Pat Robertson, don't give him your money. Vote with your wallet, as it were, democracy via capitalism. If the business is truly out of line, then people would put it out of business. If it sells like gangbusters, maybe they're onto something.

Capitalism as an arbiter of acceptibility and community standards? It works... sometimes. But I think you'd also agree that we can't possibly rely on it in all cases of conflict. "If thousands of people want to buy child pornography, why not let the marketplace decide if it's a legitimate enterprise?" I don't think that'd fly. Though yeah, that's an extreme example.

Standards and limits are pesky, moving, subjective things - some communities have rules that venture into this territory, some don't, and for those that do, there is a real line in the sand between acceptible and going too far. Strip clubs, night clubs, gigantic billboards featuring string cheese, some rules make more sense than others. But there's a place for them.

Our Buddha Bar falls easily on the "YMMV" side of community battles, thankfully. I just think it's an interesting case, since I agree that it's a bigger deal here because Buddhists aren't quite the minority they are elsewhere.

Some people think the Buddha bar crosses some line. Some don't. The government has already made it clear, there's nothing they can do if they wanted to in this case. So, the people it bothers are making their point the American way - with speech. I'm glad we agree on that, after all.

Just as white men must tolerate stereotypical categorization and accept being the only group it's really okay to offend, so Christians have to put up with the same, and I think I was expressing frustration by that. Which is all good and fine, and definitely great fodder for another conversation, but it's good you see that bringing it up in the context of the Buddha Bar controversy effectively made it an attempt to diminish the angry Buddhists' views by saying, "Get in line."

And I can't believe I just typed the phrase angry Buddhists. :D

It made me think of the "Penthouse Club" which opened near the forthcoming Wal-Mart and I wondered how they could get away with that. They didn't.I had no idea they weren't related to the mainland enterprise (which has been in financial trouble, so I figured a strip club franchise was a last gasp of some sorts). I thought it was notable how, long before the name came down, they had to give up their gaudy, neon-lit silhouettes of nude women. :) There's one case where community response effected a business decision. (Or maybe it did involve the government? I wonder.)

[easTTriver]

It is a pretty lame idea, I think, but seems to have paid off big time in publicity.

It made me think of the "Penthouse Club" which opened near the forthcoming Wal-Mart and I wondered how they could get away with that. They didn't. The name has now been changed. But, of course, the original name offended commercial interests (it would be absurd to say "intellectual property" even if it probably applies).

In any case, I don't expect to patronize either establishment.

I heard that the 'penthouse club' changed it's name because it didn't want to pay the licensing fees for the name. just a rumor....i have no reliable info to confirm this...

[kimo55]

And the example in the Advertiser article about using the image of Buddha as a decoration? Christians have been seeing this kind of profanity of our sacred icons for centuries.

http://www.mcphee.com/bigindex/current/10972.html

http://www.mcphee.com/cgi-bin/mcphee/archie-search.cgi


I say this not to excuse anyone of anything; I'm merely suggesting to people who might be offended by this that maybe now they know how some of the rest of us feel. There's plenty of room for all of us in our multitude of faiths; this means that there's plenty of room, too, for us all to be trivialized, marginalized, and profaned. Welcome to the club!

interesting perspective...


I query and quote an Advertiser newspaper editorial:

"And the jolly figure displayed conspicuously at the Buddha Bar is relatively inoffensive, given that he is Hotei, a patron of bartenders."
hmmmm.

"the name Buddha Bar is likely to spell bad karma, even if no disrespect is intended for one of the world's great religions or its founder. "

wait; isn't karma based on ones motives, intentions as much as on the action?

"Also, the Eightfold Path leads Buddhists away from intoxicating drinks, which leaves the choice of this theme at least mildly odd. "

"The point is this particular bar is striving for an atmosphere of Asian mystery, intrigue and excitement."


o.k., then it's no an odd choice, is it. Esp. as its pointed out Hotei is patron saint of bartenders!


"Surely, another theme can be found."

how about "Tiki bar"? How do you weigh in on that?

And if you feel a name change is in order for this bar based on the possibility of the offending of Buddhists, why do we hear no strum und drang following the "I am one with Hecko. Dot com!" commercials featuring what appears to be a "Buddhist meditation guru at work?

[AuntieNellieKulolo]

Oh, Lord. Look what happens while I'm out of town and offline. First the Victoria's Secret Buddha Bikini(don't ask), now this... How about calling it the 'Virupa Bar'?(V was a tantric Buddhist saint who was a brewer)

Just wait 'til the Buddhist Yahoo! groups hear about this...

Interesting nobody has gotten offended about an actual NYC deli called the Deli Lama, if only for the bad pun. It was featured prominently in the movie 'Phone Booth'.

I'll add my own .02 later, gotta get to work.

[AuntieNellieKulolo]

OK, I'm back. After reading the articles and comments, I can only give my own Tibetan Buddhist viewpoint. I am not as familiar with other Buddhist traditions, although I believe they agree. In this tradition the name and image of the Buddha is very sacred, you are not even supposed to put anything on top of a paper with the name of Buddha(like a napkin), throw it away(burn or recycle it instead), or step on or over it. While Buddha images are not 'worshipped' per se they are honored as representing the real Buddha and treated with respect. You should not point your feet in the direction of a Buddha image or engage in sexual conduct or other 'profane' activities in a room where there is a Buddha image(though I have known more than one Zen practitioner who keeps a small Buddha shrine in their bathroom...). Since I doubt that this bar and its patrons will be observing these precepts I don't think it's the greatest idea in the world. As far as drinking is concerned, in Tibetan Buddhism it's a complicated issue, some folks(including lamas who have not taken monastic vows) drink, nuns and monks and lay vow-holders such as myself don't.

BTW, there is a Buddha Laundromat on 102nd and Broadway in NYC. Maybe the concept of clean clothes is more conducive to enlightenment than inebriation? :)

[AuntieNellieKulolo]

There's one case where community response effected a business decision. (Or maybe it did involve the government? I wonder.)

Let's not forget 'Inserection', the sex store that used to be on McCully. Folks got offended, now I think it's a Papa John's.

[kimo55]

Let's not forget 'Inserection', the sex store that used to be on McCully. Folks got offended, now I think it's a Papa John's.

Now, THAT, I am offended with. It is disrespectful and an insult to Papas everywhere, whose name is John!

[kimo55]

While Buddha images are not 'worshipped' per se they are honored as representing the real Buddha and treated with respect. You should not point your feet in the direction of a Buddha image or engage in sexual conduct or other 'profane' activities in a room where there is a Buddha image(though I have known more than one Zen practitioner who keeps a small Buddha shrine in their bathroom...).

to a large degree, in ancient Polynesia, "tikis" were treated with similar respectful guidelines and behavior... and now, we have "tiki bars".... how you figgah!?


....on the other hand.... in the Christian cults, people have their idols scattered all over the house; bathroom, bedroom, (where you-know-what occurs!) as if it's another fixture! ("lessee... put the rocking chair here, the umbrella stand there... umm, the crucifix here, hang the curtains there and oh yea; the Mary saint statue next to that lamp...)

[Albert]

There is one aspect of this thing .... Buddhists, especially Tibetan Buddhists, have no problem at all with consuming alcohol. I once spent a thoroughly (as it ended up) inebriated evening in a Tibetan Buddhist neighborhood of New Delhi where I consumed far too much of a sake-like brew they make from some grain (wheat? I'm not sure, nor can I remember what they called the stuff).

Doesn't excuse this rather tasteless idea for a bar name, but no one who opposes it can do so on the basis that Buddhists shun alcohol.

[kimo55]

There is one aspect of this thing .... Buddhists, especially Tibetan Buddhists, have no problem at all with consuming alcohol. I once spent a thoroughly (as it ended up) inebriated evening in a Tibetan Buddhist neighborhood of New Delhi where I consumed far too much of a sake-like brew they make from some grain (wheat? I'm not sure, nor can I remember what they called the stuff).

Doesn't excuse this rather tasteless idea for a bar name, but no one who opposes it can do so on the basis that Buddhists shun alcohol.


Panther, I'll bet it's this, eh?

"Tibetan rice wine, chhang, is made from fermented barley and occasionally rice or millet. It tastes mild but is seldom made with pure water and can sneak up on you after a few glasses, having a strong effect at Tibet's high altitudes. In some hotel Bars in they serves a delicious, mild chhang drink laced with honey."


from:
http://www.green-lotus-trekking.com/engels/tibet/tibet-Info.html#alcoholic%20drinks

[Glen Miyashiro]

I think the comparison to a Jesus Bar is, in a way, actually quite illustrative of this disparity. If I opened up the "Jesus Lounge," with pictures of the Virgin Mary holding a Budweiser and using crosses a swizzle sticks, you bet your sweet bippy I'd be drowned in outrage.
You know, there's the seed of a business plan in there. The Jesus Bar and Grill. Wine and crackers. Fish and loaves. Enjoy every meal as if it might be your Last Supper. Hmm... :D

[kimo55]

You know, there's the seed of a business plan in there. The Jesus Bar and Grill. Wine and crackers. Fish and loaves. Enjoy every meal as if it might be your Last Supper. Hmm... :D


hohaaa! good un.

[kimo55]

You know, there's the seed of a business plan in there. The Jesus Bar and Grill. Wine and crackers. Fish and loaves. Enjoy every meal as if it might be your Last Supper. Hmm... :D


hey, and ... If he turns water into wine, hope he passes the savings onto the loyal clientele!

[Albert]

"chhang"

Yep, that's it! One of the sneakiest beverages I've ever encountered. Now if the Budda Bar serves that stuff, I'll change my mind about patronizing the place.

[AuntieNellieKulolo]

There is one aspect of this thing .... Buddhists, especially Tibetan Buddhists, have no problem at all with consuming alcohol. I once spent a thoroughly (as it ended up) inebriated evening in a Tibetan Buddhist neighborhood of New Delhi where I consumed far too much of a sake-like brew they make from some grain (wheat? I'm not sure, nor can I remember what they called the stuff).

Doesn't excuse this rather tasteless idea for a bar name, but no one who opposes it can do so on the basis that Buddhists shun alcohol.

Was the area the New Tibetan Camp at Rajnukatilla(sp)? I had the pleasure of staying there last year, will probably go back next year on the way to a brief pilgrimage to Bodh Gaya and the other holy places of the Buddha. Fun place-I remember monks playing some checkers-like game on the side of the road at night(hopefully not for money...) :cool:

What you drank was probably either tong-ba(made from millet) or chang(made from barley). I've never tried tong-ba, but it's served in a tall glass with a straw to filter out the millet grains. Chang is more common, before I took vows I indulged a couple of times at Losar (Tibetan New Year's) parties in NYC. Very strong stuff.

It's almost as complex as the vegetarianism debate which seems to be brought up at least once a year on every Buddhist listserv I know.

[kimo55]

The proprieters should be free to offend anyone they want. If enough people are offended, they'll organize and try to keep others away from the establishment, and the proprieters will be out of business.


Or, the tremendous business upsurge, resultant from the enormous publicity, may allow them to open more in other cities.....