Hawaii Superferry

[admin]

I accidentally deleted a thread Mel started on the Hawaii Superferry. My apologies. I'll try to reconstitute it below.

[mel]

It's still about 2 years away, but many people in Hawaii are excited about the new Hawaii Superferrry that is supposed to be put into interisland service in 2006. The Hawaii Superferry will allow passengers to travel over the ocean and offer the option of them bringing their vehicles along.

In March I got the opportunity to visit a prototype of the kind of ship Hawaii Superferry Inc. will sail in Hawaii waters. The ship called the Spirit of Ontario passed through Hawaii on its way to its service destination between Canada and New York I believe.

Select this link to see photos of the Ontario ferry that I shot in March. (http://macpro.freeshell.org/superferry/index.html)

Here is a link to the Hawaii Superferry website. (http://www.hawaiisuperferry.com/) Be aware that there is a flash introduction to this page.

It seems that Hawaii Superferry will charge competitive fares for neighbor island travel roughly in the neighborhood of $50 each way per person. Vehicles will be charged extra.

Tell us what you think about the Hawaii Superferry and whether or not this is an idea whose time has come.

[craigwatanabe]

As for the superferry, I just wished it could've come into Hilo Harbor because making that 120-mile drive to Kona to get on that ferry and back doesn't make for a pleasant weekend drive to Oahu. You'll spend about 13-hours in transit total from Hilo to Oahu. In 13-hours I could've flown to Oahu from Hilo, bought everything I needed at Ala Moana, packed and shipped UPS and flown back to Hilo and still have time to go to KTA for some light grocery shopping.

My feeling is that we're making a big mistake not docking in Hilo.

[Konaguy]

My feeling is that we're making a big mistake not docking in Hilo.


http://www.hawaiisuperferry.com/faqs/default.html

Why doesn't Hawaii Superferry plan to go to Hilo?

A: The journey to Kawaihae takes 4 hours whereas the trip to Hilo would take 6 hours and would cost significantly more as a result. Kawaihae also avoids the rough Alenuihaha Channel. So it is cheaper, faster and more comfortable to serve Kawaihae.

[Ania]

I think that this is a great idea. When I lived in UK I used to travel by a similar ferry to France over the Canal Lamanche (sp?). It was inexpensive and very convenient since I liked to drive to France, so on the ferry I could take my car.

I think that this is a great idea. When I lived in UK I used to travel by a similar ferry to France over the Canal Lamanche (sp?). It was inexpensive and very convenient since I liked to drive to France, so on the ferry I could take my car.

[pzarquon]

As I posted in a brief thread (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=611) on the ferry in May:
Four hours from Oahu to the Big Island with room to relax and move around (and for kids to play)? Compare that to the disaster that is airport security (conceivably four hours of your life, total, wasted anyway), cramped planes (no fun for kids... or fellow passengers near said kids), and interisland fares ($180 round trip), and you have an attractive alternative... for the right price.Not a speedy trip, but a comfortable one. And sure, if your final destination is Hilo, you're in for a longer drive from Kawaihae... but if you love Hilo, you're probably used to being late and taking things slow anyway. :)

[Miulang]

I think it's a great idea. Up here in the Puget Sound area, we have the largest state run ferry system in the country. Our longest run takes about an hour and we don't have places like the Alenuihaha Channel to contend with. But it's a real nice alternative to driving alllllll the way around the water to get to the other side! The longest ferry crossing charges something like $30 for a car and a driver + passenger, so I think even at $50 one way for a car and driver, the Superferry still beats airfare between the islands any day.

Miulang

[mel]

I accidentally deleted a thread Mel started on the Hawaii Superferry. My apologies. I'll try to reconstitute it below.

Geez.. how did that happen???? :confused:

[mel]

I have been told that security measures for passengers will be similar to that implemented at airports. I can only assume that every vehicle that boards the superferry will also go through a thorough security check.

[Konaguy]

And sure, if your final destination is Hilo, you're in for a longer drive from Kawaihae... but if you love Hilo, you're probably used to being late and taking things slow anyway. :)


How you figure it is 50 miles one way between Kamuela and Hilo.From Kamuela
to Kawaihae is probably another 10-15 miles for a total of 60-65 miles one way.
Lets compare that to driving from Kona to Hilo, from Kailua-Kona to Kamuela
is 40 miles approximately + 50 is total of 90 miles one way.

[Konaguy]

I have been told that security measures for passengers will be similar to that implemented at airports. I can only assume that every vehicle that boards the superferry will also go through a thorough security check.

The State of Hawaii DOA will be screening people and cars for illegal
agriculture products also.

[Miulang]

The State of Hawaii DOA will be screening people and cars for illegal
agriculture products also.

Up here, they do employ dogs to sniff out bombs and drugs like marijuana. I don't know if you can train a dog to sniff for "ice" or forbidden fruit. They don't actually physically search iindividual cars unless there's a reason to. I doubt they want to incur the wrath of about 300 people every half hour on just one of the ferry runs!

Miulang

[mel]

Up here, they do employ dogs to sniff out bombs and drugs like marijuana. I don't know if you can train a dog to sniff for "ice" or forbidden fruit. They don't actually physically search iindividual cars unless there's a reason to. I doubt they want to incur the wrath of about 300 people every half hour on just one of the ferry runs!


Every half hour? The intervals on trips between the islands will be like 3 or 4 hours each way. I think the prudent thing to do is a general bomb sniffing search to all vehicles since anything can be stored on them for the trip to another island.

[Konaguy]

I don't know if you can train a dog to sniff for "ice" or forbidden fruit. They don't actually physically search iindividual cars unless there's a reason to.

I guess you haven't been to a major airport and saw the USDA Beagle Brigade
[Probably with DHS now]. They use dogs to sniff out fruit and other prohibited
agriculture items.

http://hawaiisuperferry.com/faqs/default.html

What about security?

A: Ferries have an exceptional security record. Crew areas are securely locked and separate from passengers and there will be an onboard security guard. Every area of the ship is monitored by a network of video cameras and alarms. Passengers are not allowed on the vehicle deck while the ship is under way.

We will match tickets with picture IDs for adults and collect vehicle license plate numbers at boarding. Freight will be monitored through “known shipper” and other well-established programs.

Q: How will Hawaii Superferry help stop migration of exotic species?

A: Hawaii Superferry will only allow plants, cuttings or flowers on board that have been inspected and sealed by Hawaii Department of Agriculture Plant Quarantine Office on the island of departure.

Only domestic cats and dogs will be allowed as pets, either in vehicles or in on-board kennels on the vehicle deck. No other animals including rodents, reptiles, fish or birds will be permitted except HDOA registered livestock and poultry in approved vehicles. Vehicles traveling on the ferry will be inspected and sniffer dogs may be used to ensure compliance.

[Miulang]

Every half hour? The intervals on trips between the islands will be like 3 or 4 hours each way. I think the prudent thing to do is a general bomb sniffing search to all vehicles since anything can be stored on them for the trip to another island.

I really don't think there's much of a security risk in Hawaii (even your lovely Governor, the former mayor of Maui appears to think so). If they try something over there, they will immediately incur the wrath of the armed forces stationed at Schofield, Barber's Pt and Pearl Harbor. Besides, Hawaii doesn't have any really tall buildings (like the Space Needle) that would make a real big spectacle if someone either blew it up or flew a plane into it.

No, as far as terrorists go, they are after much bigger fish than Hawaii. Now you guys probably would have more of a problem with illegal stowaways from Asia, though.

On our ferries, they only use the dogs, and people are allowed to sit in their cars if they like. The BC (Canada) car ferries will not allow people to sit in their cars; once they're loaded on the ship, you have to stay on the top deck until you get to the other side.

Miulang

[Miulang]

I guess you haven't been to a major airport and saw the USDA Beagle Brigade
[Probably with DHS now]. They use dogs to sniff out fruit and other prohibited
agriculture items.

Whenever I visit Hawaii (and that's twice a year) I never fly through HNL if I can possibly help it; I always try to fly direct to Maui. I've never seen the beagles at OGG, although I'm sure they're hard at work in the baggage handling areas.

Miulang

[mel]

On our ferries, they only use the dogs, and people are allowed to sit in their cars if they like. The BC (Canada) car ferries will not allow people to sit in their cars; once they're loaded on the ship, you have to stay on the top deck until you get to the other side.

The Hawaii Superferry will be like the one in Canada where all the passengers must be on the top 2 decks after boarding alone or with their vehicle. The vehicles will be stored on the bottom 2 decks. The Hawaii Superferry will be slightly bigger than the Spirit of Ontario ferry that passed through Hawaii in March. It will however be very similar in design and configuration.

[Miulang]

The Hawaii Superferry will be like the one in Canada where all the passengers must be on the top 2 decks after boarding alone or with their vehicle. The vehicles will be stored on the bottom 2 decks. The Hawaii Superferry will be slightly bigger than the Spirit of Ontario ferry that passed through Hawaii in March. It will however be very similar in design and configuration.

I was on Maui when the SuperFerry made a port of call in Kahului earlier this year. Unfortunately, because the harbor is so crammed for space right now and security issues, I only could see it from the Maui Mall (sort of) and the Beach Road. I guess they are having to add additional piers in Kahului Harbor to accommodate both the SuperFerry and the new cruise ships over the next couple of years.

I've ridden on the BC Ferry from Prince George, BC to the Queen Charlotte Islands (an 8-hour trip), and I really like those ferries. Their noses open up, so you just drive your car on board, they secure it and you go upstairs. Upstairs, you can either rent a cabin or sprawl out on the seats.

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

I've had the opportunity to tour the Superferry when it docked in Honolulu. I've also been on the ferries on Pugeot Sound in Washington back in the early 80's. The Superferry is way more advanced than those I rode in Seattle, however there was about 20 years spanning both visits so I'm sure the Seattle ferries are as up to date by now.

One thing's for sure, don't compare the Superferry with Seaflight. I can see myself on a 4-hour ride on the Superferry and I'm one to get sea sick easily.

[Konaguy]

Whenever I visit Hawaii (and that's twice a year) I never fly through HNL if I can possibly help it; I always try to fly direct to Maui. I've never seen the beagles at OGG, although I'm sure they're hard at work in the baggage handling areas.


I know for a fact Honolulu has a USDA [Part of DHS/CBP now] beagle brigade. Since Maui has not as many international arrivals they don't use dogs on Maui
to sniff out fruit etc as far as I know. I have also seen US Customs
[Now US CBP] use dogs to look for illegal contraband also.

[Konaguy]

http://www.kauaiworld.com/articles/2004/09/18/business/bus01.txt

[pzarquon]

From the article Aaron linked:It was as if the Superferry were already a done deal, and the only thing remaining were mundane details. But as Garibaldi and Dick admitted, the Superferry isn't a done deal yet. "We've raised $3.3 million in equity capitol," Garibaldi said. They expect to raise another $55 million and already have some 50 companies and individuals investing in the project. With a conservative cost estimate of $152 million for the two ships alone, financing for the Superferry is still a long way off, though Garibaldi insists that there is plenty of money waiting in the wings as the idea for the Superferry builds a head of emotional - and promotional - steam throughout the islands.Some helpful background details like the above in this piece. I, too, have been functioning under the false impression that the bills are all paid and that the only thing we're waiting for are the ships themselves. They've got a long way to go.

But, as the article also conveyed, there's no shortage of enthusiasm for this project. Here's hoping consumer interest is strong enough to encourage more folks with deep pockets, like Steve Case, to buy in.

[mel]

As long as this is privately financed all the way, it is a good idea.

[Konaguy]

As far as I understood the harbor improvements will be paid by the state/federal
government. With the cost being paid back through wharfage fees.

[mel]

The harbor improvements by the state have long been in the State DOT master plan. I have no problem with that.

[Konaguy]

http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=1946

[pzarquon]

From the article, "Super Ferry will require upgraded harbors (http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=1946)":The state will have to invest in some major harbor improvements to get ready for the Hawaii Super Ferry, and state Transportation Director Rodney Haraga is wondering how much he’ll have to spend. If harbor improvements are underfunded, the Super Ferry company could decide to leave Hawaii for a market with better facilities, he said. I wonder if the possibility that the Super Ferry could give up on us is one expressed or at least acknowledged by the company, or just a thought thrown in to add weight to the debate over the harbor improvements? I doubt the Super Ferry investors would want to plant doubts like that when they're still trying to get a firm foothold here.

I'm reminded of the Pacific Business News article on the "harbor crunch (http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2004/09/27/story2.html)." Harbor infrastructure and capacity is a bigger problem than just for ferries, or just for cruise ships. I don't think there should be much hesitation in biting the bullet and investing in upgrading across the board.

[Kalihiboy]

I think its a great idea and I have no problems if my taxes are raised to support this or whatever mode of rapid transit the city has a plan for and that they will stick with.

Considering I will use these modes of travel it even gives me more incentive to not only support it but also pay for it thru my taxes or whatever means.

However, I was not pleased with the city raising the vehicle registration fees so they could help finance the raises for the HPD. While I support HPD getting whatever raise they can get, I question why considering the amount of police officers there are versus amount of people owning vehicles on this island as to where all the extra money went and will go in future years unless it goes to their retirement. I'm not sure.

Makiki Boy

[Miulang]

During a public hearing last night, the people of Maui expressed concerns about the expansion of Kahului Harbor in order to accomodate the ferry plus additional cruise ships, not to mention the canoe clubs that use Kahului Harbor for races and practices. Heehee, looks like people are finally beginning to realize that maybe the additional income that would be generated by the Superferry and additional cruise ships isn't worth losing what they have today...a place that's nearby where they can safely launch their small boats, canoes, go fishing and surfing. I'm sure this isn't the end of it.

http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=3380

Miulang

[Glen Miyashiro]

After reading about some of the objections to the Superferry, I'm conflicted.

On the one hand, we sorely need a better interisland transport system. Flying between islands really doesn't make sense given the relatively short distances involved.

But on the other hand, it sounds like there are legitimate worries about environmental issues like hitting baby whales while going at high speeds (don't laugh, it's a serious concern) and spreading invasive species (wanna see mongoose on Kaua'i?).

[Miulang]

Chalk one up for "the little people!" The advisory committee looking into the expansion of Kahului Harbor for the superferry has returned a finding that the current plan of expanding the current piers should be abandoned and another suitable location nearby be explored for terminals for the ferry and other cruise liners.

This is a great victory for the people who use the harbor for things like canoe racing, fishing and surfing. Sometimes the little guy can beat Goliath. It just takes a lot of determination and noise.

Miulang

http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/22/news/index1.html

[Miulang]

If they decide to look for a location just north of the current piers, then the windsurfers and parasailers are going to get their knickers in a twist, because that's their turf (Kanaha Beach Park). Some days you just can't win for losing, I guess. :rolleyes: The displaced parasailers and windsurfers would all have to crowd into Pavilions by Ho'okipa Park.

Miulang

[pzarquon]

Superferry seeks harbor funds (http://www.khon2.com/khon/displayStory.cfm?storyID=3260)
Gregg Takayama, KHON, January 25, 2005
Garibaldi needs lawmakers to approve $40 million to upgrade harbors by installing ramps and passenger facilities. Gov. Linda Lingle is already on board. "I believe this project can reinvigorate economic activity between the islands that has been stifled by rising interisland airfares," she said in Monday's State of the State address.
While most people are excited about having an alternative to overpriced, cramped air travel, Ewa Rep. Mark Moses thinks the ferry could also do double-duty as an intra-island commuter ferry, getting folks from Ewa to downtown Honolulu each morning.

[Miulang]

Superferry seeks harbor funds (http://www.khon2.com/khon/displayStory.cfm?storyID=3260)
Gregg Takayama, KHON, January 25, 2005

While most people are excited about having an alternative to overpriced, cramped air travel, Ewa Rep. Mark Moses thinks the ferry could also do double-duty as an intra-island commuter ferry, getting folks from Ewa to downtown Honolulu each morning.
Not so far fetched. We have "foot ferries" that run from Bremerton and that side of Puget Sound over to Seattle (only take passengers and no cars). Takes less than an hour (compared to more than 2 hours driving around the Sound) but the fare is kinda expensive: $12 one way. We have a shorter distance passenger-only "water taxi" that runs between West Seattle and downtown Seattle. That only takes about 10 minutes and costs I think $10 round trip.

This also sort of sounds like what Island Air was planning to do on the Big Island: commuter flights between Kona and Hilo for around $20/roundtrip.

What'll determine whether these shorter commuter alternatives succeed or not is how much the fares are and peoples' intolerance of traffic jams and if the price of gas for cars continues to rise.

Miulang

[Miulang]

So the promoters of the Hawai'i Superferry are not going to have an easy time bringing the system up to speed after all. We have "obstructionist" environmentalists (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Feb/20/ln/ln05p.html) on Maui and Kauai who want more extensive environmental studies completed before approving the plans.

So we have the environmentalists thinking about the ecological future of the islands on one side pitted against the money and the people who could make this plan a reality on the other.

Since a kybosh was put on having the ferry terminal be part of the existing Kahului Harbor, one can only guess where they're thinking about siting the ferry terminal on Maui. If they want it near the current Kahului piers because of the facilities, about the only place they could use would be the Kanaha Beach area a little to the east of the current terminals. But that's where the windsurfers and parasailors play, so more than likely they, along with the canoe club that has its clubhouse in the Kanaha Beach area would raise a big enough stink that the ferry would have to find another location. Maybe they could go to Maalaea or Lahaina, but that would be too far away from Central Maui.

Miulang

[mel]

It always takes the environmental whackos to put the kibosh on private enterprise thereby eventually inceasing the costs for all of us to do business.


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Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.

[Konaguy]

Let me pose the question here Mel ? I am fully aware of the benefits
of the H4 Superferry.But what about the downsides like increased traffic,
enironmental effects, like possible introduction of alien species. It seems
these downsides to and many others should be shafted in favor of the
capitalistic machine steamrolling everything in its way according to you.

I am not against progress, but I do feel that these issues warrant a closer
look. Especially since if for these negative downsides do occur, they CANNOT
be reversed.

[mel]

The environmentalists will probably kill the ferry. There are certain deadlines for financing that the Hawaii Superferry must meet. But with these obstructionistic people in the way, it is very doubtful IMO that the ferry will set sail as proposed.

The environmentalists and their continuing assault on economic progress are to blame. There is nothing wrong with having a new ship sailing between the islands and offering consumers a possibly cheaper alternative to interisland travel.

Liberals and environmentalists don't care about Hawaii's economy and taxpayer's personal pocketbooks. They only want to perpetuate continued increases to Hawaii's cost of living via high taxes, new taxes, and roadblocks to economic progress.

[Waiting for another volley of liberal bricks]

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Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.

[pzarquon]

I'm a liberal, and an environmentalist, and I want this ferry to happen. Of course, there must be some simple rationalization for an aberation such as myself to exist, as acknowledging things like "nuances" and "shades of grey" will cause one-dimensional universes to implode.

[Konaguy]

Mel, mel mel your avoiding the the points I raised. It re-affirms my feeling
that you feel hell with the negative consequences of the super ferry. Lets shove it down everyones throat without any due dillgence.

I have my doubts too about their financial viability since HAWAII TAXPAYERS including you Mel are backing 40 million in improvements to the harbors. What if they go belly up.That alone should taken seriously.

It seems Mel you do not care about ithe influx of traffic additional people this
service will bring to each island. Our roads here on the Big island are overloaded already. Plus there is the threat of alien species bring spread more easily now with the super ferry.

Also Mel, not everyone who shares a different view than yours is liberal.
No wonder why our country is so fragmented left vs right. NEITHER SIDE
IS RIGHT in my view. If more people had the brains to listen to each side
of the issue things in this country would be so much better.

[mel]

Thanks for the terse lecture. My views will not change. I expected liberal rocks to be thrown and you have done so now. The ferry is doomed because of environmental activitists. An ecnomic option for Hawaii is fast fading away.

[outnumbered and whacked on the head by another liberal]

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Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.

[Konaguy]

I give up...firstly it aggravates me when some people are unwilling to see the larger picture here, secondly I don't like to be branded a liberal when I'm not
one. It seems to me Mel that you brand ANYONE that has a conflicting view on ANY issue a liberal. I have been here long enough to see a
pattern here. That is very aggravating too. No one one can have decent
discussion with you since everyone but you is wrong or worst yet a liberal.

Back to the issue at hand, correct me if I'm wrong you do not care one bit
about the negative effects of the super ferry. You are perfectly willing to
accept the negative effects without any due dilligence. As a tax paying
citizen of this state I want this service to be throughly scruntized especially
since 40 million dollars of our TAXPAYER DOLLARS are on the line.

[mel]

The Who and Why Behind the Attempt to Kill the Superferry (http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?3aad4f58-dc01-476f-a139-eb3c15767aa9)

The Superferry has been in planning for nearly a year and there has been no such request for an EIS until this point. The timing of this opposition is clearly designed to kill the project. The CEO of Hawaii Superferry, John Garabaldi, has said precisely that. He said because of a reported "drop-dead-date" of June 30, 2005, all government contracts need to be in place or crucial financing will be lost.

(Emphasis added)

The environmentalists have their agenda. They want this project killed. I am sure you bleeding heart liberals will discount this view as published on HawaiiReporter.com (http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?3aad4f58-dc01-476f-a139-eb3c15767aa9)

No chance for an economic alternative for Hawaii's consumers as long as environmentalists continue to put roadblocks in front of progress.

:(

[This conservative is vastly outnumbered by the liberals here]

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[pzarquon]

It seems to me Mel that you brand ANYONE that has a conflicting view on ANY issue a liberal. I have been here long enough to see a pattern here. That is very aggravating too. No one one can have decent discussion with you since everyone but you is wrong or worst yet a liberal.It seems to me that expecting a "decent discussion" is the problem here. If someone's looking to just spout off, and not open to a conversation, your best strategy is to let it go. It's certainly not worth aggravation... especially on a holiday weekend!

I think the environmental impact of the ferry will be negligible, at least compared to other projects that are undertaken on a near-daily basis. That said, considering the work that will need to be done on shorelines and the increased traffic on our waters, I find it hard to believe that anyone's pretending to be surprisedthat an EIS is being called for. Hell, you practically need an EIS to flush a toilet 'round here.

The EIS process can and has been abused, but it's also an important tool. Much as I want the ferry to happen, I would've hoped they could have spent some of the money they spent on PR on highlighting the minimal environmental impact, or even earth-friendly benefits, of what they're planning to do.

Hell, if Chevron can run ads with cute and happy seals, anything goes.

[Miulang]

80% of 300 people polled informally by the Advertiser indicated that they are disappointed (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Feb/22/ln/ln08p.html) by the calls from Maui and Kauai Counties to embark on 9-month long environmental impact statements prior to final approval for the Superferry.

Are these people thinking only of their immediate short term gain? What would happen if there was an oil spill or some other kind of environmental disaster?

Miulang

[pzarquon]

Are these people thinking only of their immediate short term gain? What would happen if there was an oil spill or some other kind of environmental disaster?Considering the sorts of things that are transported over our waterways for industrial and commercial purposes - much greater toxicity at much, much higher volumes - I would thing two consumer-serving vessels would be the least of their worries. If a Superferry has an accident, you might end up with a fuel spill and 250 cars at the bottom of the ocean, true. But what about a 70-year-old tanker? Or container ship? You could lose an entire rental car fleet, or have another Exxon Valdez.

I think it would take a Superferry years of abuse before it could do half of what that tanker did just last week off Kalaeloa.

Given the poll, I suppose I would be among the 80 percent disappointed. But I think the question should have allowed for people who are asking, "Why wasn't an EIS built into the master plan in the first place?" Well, more people should be asking that, anyway.

I also agree that the environmentalists are just an easy scapegoat. Behind every legislator pushing for this, you'll find ten "shipping companies, barge companies, airlines, car rental agencies, [and] taxi companies" for every long-haired hippie. In that sense, this is just business as usual for Hawaii politics.

[Konaguy]

My gut feeling is that the environmentalists are being used as the fall guy
if this service falls through. As far as I understand an EIS was not required
by the state. But I believe as more people became aware of the negative impacts of the Super Ferry, now your hearing all this rumbling. I believe
an EIS should've been done from the get go even though it was not required.

[Konaguy]

It probably doesn't matter to Mel. He probably doesn't care if
he has to deal with an introduction of fire ants on Oahu.He just wants to have the capitalistic machine roll over everything.

This any many other examples are why an EIS should be done for the Super Ferry.


http://starbulletin.com/2005/03/01/editorial/indexletters.html

Stinging insects could be Superferry riders
The Hawaii Tribune Herald reported Feb. 13 that fruit pickers are fleeing fire ant stings in a Papaikou orchard. A home near the University of Hawaii in Hilo is one of more than 40 known fire ant sites in Hilo and Puna.

There are no approved pesticides for killing fire ants in edible fruit orchards. The tiny ants are even found in the fur of pets, where they can eventually cause blindness to the animals.

The ants are so small (about the thickness of a penny) they easily travel on plants, clothing, even pets, and could presumably hitch a ride in a car or truck.

This is just one exciting possibility that could be discussed by an Environmental Impact Statement for the proposed Superferry -- unless, of course, the business sweetheart deal being proposed allows the proponents to avoid following the law that requires the study.

Maybe saving a few bucks to drive a car around the state has some hidden costs. Maybe we should know more about them before signing a deal. Maybe we should follow the law, instead of being panicked into thinking the first offer is the last and only one.

[mel]

Why use my name in your post Aaron? You know my view. Build it and I will ride. I'm with the 80% majority on this. All kinds of stuff can move between the islands with the modes of transport we already have... barges, planes, ships, etc. We are only talking about 2 more ships. No big deal. Of course you are already set in your views as being with the obstructionist environmental whackos, and well that is what you want then that is what you'll get... nothing, because the whackos like you want to stop prgoress and economic relief from happening in Hawaii. Typical liberal viewpoint.

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Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.

[Konaguy]

I was just stating fact that you don't care if alien species get transported
to other islands. I disagree that other modes of transport can do the same
damage. It seems you don't get it. I'll be telling you "I told you so" when
my prognoscations come true.

You do realize you are not the only person living on this planet. I hope you
do as your me, me,me,me attitude is very annoying. I would like to have
the Super Ferry happen, but not at the expense of the environment or
the people living on each island.

[mel]

I was just stating fact that you don't care if alien species get transported
to other islands. I disagree that other modes of transport can do the same
damage. It seems you don't get it. I'll be telling you "I told you so" when
my prognoscations come true.

You do realize you are not the only person living on this planet. I hope you
do as your me, me,me,me attitude is very annoying. I would like to have
the Super Ferry happen, but not at the expense of the environment or
the people living on each island.


You know if you don't want to have anything to do with me you can always do the following:

1. Add me to your IGNORE list (I think I and all of my posts are forever blocked from your view as you activate this option).

2. Do not send me any more private messages.

3. Do not send me anymore emails.

That will solve your problem with me.

As for the alien spieces, it did not take a Superferry to introduce fire ants to the big island. It did not take a Superferry to introduce the Koki Frog to the islands. It did not take the Superferry to introduce miconia to the islands. It did not take the Superferry to introduce dengue fever carrying mosquitoes to the islands. It did not take the Superferry to introduce mongoose to the islands. All of these came in by different modes of transport. Superferry or not, these will still come in.... boat, barge, planes, mail, containers, whatever. Doesn't take a Superferry to bring em in or transport em to other islands.

For you death to the Superferry is all you want given your whacko agenda and thinking. Sorry the majority of the people want the superferry but the environmentalists who have the most zeal to defeat it will definitely do so if they have their way.

I guess its tough crap for Hawaii again.

Another nail in Hawaii's ongoing reputation of one of the worst places in the United States to do business.

__________________________________


Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.


:eek:

[mel]

By the way, I have nothing personally to gain from having a superferry around. All it does is offer people another choice of transport between the islands.

_________________________________

Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.

[Konaguy]

Better yet, I won't post here anymore. How does that suit you.
You win...I lose just what you wanted.

Besides that I tried to put you on ignore, I cannot since your
a moderator.

[pzarquon]

Aaron, as I mentioned above, if you know what you're going to get, why bother attempting responding at all? Besides, Mel might consistently blast any dissenting view as that of a brick-lobbing liberal, but you've called him out, too. Whether or not you can make his views vanish, you control whether or not to reply.

I want the superferry. I also think a decent EIS should be conducted, and I remain baffled over why one wasn't even undertaken before the process got this far. This view doesn't make me a capitalist or a liberal, just a reasonable person with an opinion.

I think "cross contamination" - be it human and vehicle traffic, or fire ants - is an important concern. But even you posted early on in this very thread about the precautions the superferry program plans to enact, and - somewhere in his tunnel-visioned ramblings - Mel makes a decent point that a ferry is the least of our worries when it comes to foreign pests. All sorts of bugs come over in containers, hiding in couches and beds from Arizona. Snakes probably fall out of jumbo jet wheel-wells on a weekly basis. Is it something to ignore with the superferry project? No. Is it a looming disaster? No.

See? Thoughtful, non-tunnelvisioned discussion is possible. Don't leave the whole board. Just be more selective in who you bother to discuss things with.

[mel]

I sent in testimony to the Senate Transportation Committee in opposition to SB 1785 and in support of the Hawaii Superferry.


________________________________

Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.

[Konaguy]

See? Thoughtful, non-tunnelvisioned discussion is possible. Don't leave the whole board. Just be more selective in who you bother to discuss things with.


Unless I can block Mel, I'm going to ask to be removed from here. I have bit my tongue long enough.

[kimo55]

Unless I can block Mel, I'm going to ask to be removed from here. I have bit my tongue long enough.


why dontcha block him with yer own will and selective powers of control?
You see his posts: just ignore them.

[Konaguy]

why dontcha block him with yer own will and selective powers of control?
You see his posts: just ignore them.


I wish it was that easy.....like I said I bit my tongue long enough.

Edit: Issue has been resolved, I'm staying put..

[Konaguy]

The bill in question that would've required an EIS for the Super Ferry was killed in the legislature today.

[mel]

:) :) :)

[Linkmeister]

Did Young Brothers ever file an EIS? Did Navatek? For that matter, did Aloha, Hawaiian, or Island Air, or any of the other airlines? Suppose a barge carrying gas over to one of the outer islands sank? Or a newly-refueled plane crashed off the reef runway?

This one looked like obstructionism to me from the git-go. Same like those folks on Molokai or wherever who just hate the thought of cruise ships.

[Konaguy]

It isn't question of like Aloha or Hawaiian, Matson etc never filing a EIS.
It is question your going to have eons of people and vehicles being transported at the same time between the islands. Aloha and Hawaiian cannot transport cars and Matson and Young Brothers cannot transport large quantities of people.

But withe Super Ferry you get a double helping of cars and people at the same
time. Am I the only one that sees a problem here. The traffic situation here
on the Big Island is horrible. Since the government is unwilling the expediate
infrastructure inprovements to like Queen Kaahumanu. Which if you have not
seen has become a death trap lately. The additional vehicles will exacerbate
the situation.

I hope I'm wrong, but its like no one cares.Lets let the capitalistic machine
steamroll us.

[waioli kai]

It's still about 2 years away, but many people in Hawaii are excited about the new Hawaii Superferrry that is supposed to be put into interisland service in 2006. The Hawaii Superferry will allow passengers to travel over the ocean and offer the option of them bringing their vehicles along.

In March I got the opportunity to visit a prototype of the kind of ship Hawaii Superferry Inc. will sail in Hawaii waters. The ship called the Spirit of Ontario passed through Hawaii on its way to its service destination

So everyone packs up their coolers in their cars, catch the ferry to a neighbor island, and what? Rent a room? No, camp in (move into) the already overused, overwhelmed public parks !!

I went on Spirit of Ontario ferry also, but at the time was oblivious to what the impact of inter-island transport of private cars might be.

If such transport of private vehicles is to occur I'm opposed to the ferry.

[Linkmeister]

Wait a minute. All the passengers presumably have to (or want to) go to the other islands anyway, and many of them would rent a car once they got there. So I'm not entirely convinced that they'd add a whole lot to the existing traffic. Some, sure; maybe an additional 10%? But not zillions.

I can see bottlenecks coming out of the harbors, but once they're on the roads I don't think (and I haven't been off Oahu since 1993) it would make as much difference as some think.

[waioli kai]

Visitors' public park use, ferry-effect

So you think the effects of Hawaii state residents' hopping on the ferry with their vehicles (vehicles loaded with good and bad "goodies"; insects, other vermine, as well as cargo; the latter of which practice is not permitted by Matson or Young Brothers) is okay? When these state residents arrive on an island not of their own residence, the reidents of the county on whose island the visitor arrives will be sharing their county parks with resident visitors in degrees which such parks are not widely shared with visitors not resident of the state of Hawaii ---such as camping, fishing, hanging out. Visitors not resident to Hawaii are not inclined to home-base themselves in public parks.

[LikaNui]

When these state residents arrive on an island not of their own residence, the reidents of the county on whose island the visitor arrives will be sharing their county parks with resident visitors in degrees which such parks are not widely shared with visitors not resident of the state of Hawaii

Say what?!??
I nominate that for the single most confusing sentence ever posted in HawaiiThreads!
:D

[Glen Miyashiro]

Clearly, you haven't been reading waioli kai's other posts then. :rolleyes:

[LikaNui]

Clearly, you haven't been reading waioli kai's other posts then. :rolleyes:

Well, if that sentence I quoted was a typical example, then you know why I haven't been reading them!
:p

[waioli kai]

When these state residents arrive on an island not of their own residence,

the residents of the county on whose island the visitor arrives will be sharing their county parks with resident visitors,

sharing in degrees (ie, overnight camping, restrooms, parking) which such parks are not widely shared with visitors who are not resident of the state of Hawaii, visitors who can afford $1000/3day packages for shelter, bathing arrangements, and the like.

Does that help?

[pzarquon]

I suppose the question is, do you think the overall volume of interisland traffic - here referring to both people and vehicles - will change drastically once the Superferry is running.

On the vehicle side, I think it might be a noticable change, since current interisland travelers don't take their cars with them. But, said travelers will also not be renting cars, so the net increase in the number of cars traversing roads might not jump that much (though the number of cars period might).

On the people side, I don't know. I think the number of visits will increase per traveler, which I suppose is the same thing, but I think much of the people coming over on the ferry are people that would just not be coming by plane.

As for the use of public spaces, I suppose they'll see more use (since your average tourist from Nebraska won't be going to a neighborhood park). So a concern is definitely how increased use of both parks and roads will be handled, since it's not like Maui County's own vehicle registration, weight, or road tax will be assessed on visiting cars (which will, of course, most likely eventually leave).

As for cargo and bugs and other agricultural risks... these exist in other modes of travel as well. Not everything living transported by air rides in the freezing luggage compartment, and even if other shippers don't technically allow you to sneak stuff into your cars for the ride, I assure you it happens most regularly.

Another technical note: Unlike cruise ships, and I imagine most industrial tankers, these Superferries won't dump human and other waste at sea, instead storing it and pumping it into municipal systems when docked (as they should).

[helen]

As for cargo and bugs and other agricultural risks... these exist in other modes of travel as well. Not everything living transported by air rides in the freezing luggage compartment, and even if other shippers don't technically allow you to sneak stuff into your cars for the ride, I assure you it happens most regularly.

I am wondering what's the current regulations in transporting dogs and cats between the islands?

[waioli kai]

Empty pockets
*** *** *** ***

I suppose the question is, do you think the overall volume of interisland traffic - here referring to both people and vehicles - will change drastically once the Superferry is running?

Will the overall volume of interisland traffic - here referring to both people and vehicles - change drastically once the Superferry is running ?**

"...once the Superferry is running..." ? You have reason to be so confident?
... ... ... ... ...
... ... ... ... ...
** Interisland traffic then compared to now, then and now with just air transit?
Ask any resident what "drastically change" means to them when it comes to introducing more humanity onto their right-of-ways (air , land and sea), onto their roads and streets, into their countys' public parks and their countys' state and federal parks.... ask any year round resident, especially those who have been here some decades.... ....the response would near universally be: "Are you kidding?" Of course there are those too who would eagerly entertain "drastic change" in the context of the demands made upon them by an ever deeper inundation of humanity (mostly the things that are "needed" by, that accompany the human mass) on these pinpricks in the Pacific they call home, a'ina.
Drastic change like making each island democracy more accountable to the peoples who are of that a'ina. not "democracy" accountable to US and foreign corporations and their facilitators in county, state and federal politics. Drastic , radical change like voting districtly, changing the way we transit, and...
In other words, everybody I know thinks drastic change is overdue, allowing more humanity (their vehicles, coolers, families,,,why not pets as well!!) on the rock under existing conditions would be criminal.
... ... ... ... ...
**Interisland traffic (possibly) later compared to now; now with just air,
then with both ferry and air transit?
The preceeding question's response taken into account yields only one reply to this question: Yes, of course, how could it not?
... ... ... ... ...

On the vehicle side, I think it might be a noticable change, since current interisland travelers don't take their cars with them. But, said travelers will also not be renting cars, so the net increase in the number of cars traversing roads might not jump that much (though the number of cars period might).
Current travelers using leased vehicles, if they need them, on the island they're flying to, will on the whole be of much of the same make-up and numbers regardless their being able to island-hop with (for a price of course) their vehicles under their seats. The (alleged to be) money saved on a cargo round trip for the island-hopping vehicle compared to leasing a vehicle on the traveler's visited island is more signifigant the longer the stay of the traveler. Young Brothers already ships private vehicles for those travelers on longish 'visits'; visits where there could be a signfigant difference between costs of leasing a vehicle on a visit and owning a vehicle on a visit.
... ... ... ... ...
On the people side, I think the number of visits will increase per traveler, but I think much of the people coming over on the ferry are people that would just not be coming by plane.
The difference in costs of tickets for personal transit , air vs. ferry, is not going to be a significantly great factor in travelers' determining which means of transportation they want to use to island-hop. Overnight stays for most current island-hopping travelers entail some sort of living arrangements being made for the occassions. However, every surfer and others know very well how inexpensive it can be to live out of one's vehicle.
... ... ... ... ...
As for the use of public spaces, I suppose they'll see more use (since your average tourist from Nebraska won't be going to a neighborhood park). So a concern is definitely how increased use of both parks and roads will be handled...
Yes, handled preemptively. Not overlooked.
... ... ... ... ...
As for cargo and bugs and other agricultural risks... these exist in other modes of travel as well. Not everything living transported by air rides in the freezing luggage compartment, and even if other shippers don't technically allow you to sneak stuff into your cars for the ride, I assure you it happens most regularly.
For the typical traveler in Hawaii, in terms of air space and that which is in it, nothing compares to the traveler's vehicles. Regarding the possibility, indeed, reality of being able to "sneak stuff into your cars for the ride" I am re-assured that such conduct is not that uncommon by your "I assure you it happens most regularly."
... ... ... ... ...
Unlike cruise ships, and I imagine most industrial tankers, these Superferries won't dump human and other waste at sea, instead storing it and pumping it into municipal systems when docked (as they should).
How sure are you about cruise ships that ply Hawaiian waters dumping human and other waste into the ocean? Industrial tankers? Having served a spell in the Coast Guard, though not in Hawaii, I am very dubious with regard to such practices being allowed to occur with the commonness which you seem to infer.

[Miulang]

Well, even though the State Legislature last week voted against requiring the proposed Superferry owners to undergo an EIS, the mayors of both Kauai and Maui County (and the County Council also sided with the Mayor on this one) still insist on an EIS, but there is apparently a compromise (http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=6805) in the works, at least on Maui.

The DOT yesterday proposed using a barge that will be permanently moored at the end of the Kahului Pier 2 for use by the Superferry. Apparently since it is not a "permanent" structure per se, there is very little environmental impact, and this should not require an EIS like a more permanent pier would need. It also should not impede the Young Bros barges and the canoe club use.

If Kauai can come up with a similar solution as Maui, I think the Superferry will become another viable alternative for interisland travel by 2006.

Miulang

[waioli kai]

If Kauai can come up with a similar solution as Maui, I think the Superferry will become another viable alternative for interisland travel by 2006.
Miulang

Airlines transport to Kauai new pathogens daily, at times hourly. Soon, if things go as Superferry, Inc. proposes, another avenue of transport will be available for travelers and their intended and unintended cargoes of every description...from viruses to humans, and conceivably anything in between.

Among other claims, Hawaii Superferry, Inc. CEO John Garibaldi writes this to newspaper editors: " We (of Hawaii Superferry, Inc.) hope the people of Kaua‘i will help support our efforts to bring this service to this island so that connecting with friends and families is easier and more affordable for all members of our community."

Superferry, Inc. CEO, directors and enthusiasts may indeed believe that Superferry, Inc. will make " connecting with friends and families easier and more affordable". Yet, for the traveler, just as there is nothing easier about being transported on the ocean's surface verses being transported in a jet high above the ocean, the costs of the means of transport (water ferry vs. air ferry) is not the major expenditure which creates inter-island traveling restraints on "friends and families" in Hawaii; nor is it most common that inter-island visits' major expenditures are the extra price of an insured rental vehicle (verses, paying for a one's own vehicle to ride Superferry ) at one's destination. The major costs is overwhelmingly more likely than not to be costs related to securing shelter overnight away from one's island of residence.

According to Superferry promotions there is this pent up demand of friends and families who would, but for prohibitively high costs of air ferry, go to other islands to visit with, pay regards to kin and/or friends. To a significantly large degree, I believe that presumption is not true.

Who will be paying Superferry for a round trip of a personal vehicle for a day visit? A three day visit? A week? A month visit? Of those who may travel inter-island on a budget unable to afford air transit, yet able to afford Superferry transit, how many would stay a day, three days, a week , a month? with "friends and families"? with motel, hotel staffs and cashiers? in or on County and State parks, parking lots, public right-of-ways, minimally policed and supervised beaches?

In numbers, how many Oahu, Maui and Hawaii residents and transients (borderline and for real) does Superferry expect to be rotating through Kauai ? Passengers with their vehicles, whatever can be crammed and/or hidden inside them, whatever state of insurance, legality or other condition of the vehicle? For a round trip, of both passenger and vehicle? In numbers, how many similar travelers and their vehicles originating in neighboring islands would be equally needing to go to Oahu by Superferry?

As of Feb 2005, Hawaii Superferry, Inc. is represented on paper as $73 million in shares with 0.001 share par value. Attempting to come into existence on a shoestring of financing, Superferry gives little reason to expect that it will not of necessity be operating likewise, that is, on a shoestring budget: not significantly unlike the financial nature of those toward whom Superferry, Inc. has stated to be focusing its market expectations.

With agricultural inspections and passenger identification security procedures no less effective than those of the airline industry, as a means of transport for passengers only, a six to eight hour round trip channel-crossing ferry could possibly be an enduring, desirable option for some Hawaii residents and tourists. However, given that Superferry, Inc.'s CEO Garibaldi admits "it must be remembered that if the demand for an EIS is passed into law, the Superferry's carefully crafted financing package will fall apart...EIS requirement will sink the Superferry", there is little doubt that Superferry, Inc. has either the financial resources or the will to make the overall consequences of Superferry inter-island operations be more than a socially, culturally disruptive, intrusive and destabilizing speculative commercial adventure putting the last spike into the cause for, the life of what little genuine aloha and sense of community remains on Oahu's neighbor islands.

[waioli kai]

If Kauai can come up with a similar solution as Maui, I think the Superferry will become another viable alternative for interisland travel by 2006.
Miulang

Airlines transport pathogens daily, at times hourly. Soon, if things go as Superferry, Inc. proposes, another avenue of transport will be available for travelers and their intended and unintended cargoes of every description...from viruses to humans, and conceivably anything in between.

Among other claims, Hawaii Superferry, Inc. CEO John Garibaldi writes this to newspaper editors: " We (of Hawaii Superferry, Inc.) hope the people will help support our efforts to bring this service to this island so that connecting with friends and families is easier and more affordable for all members of our community."

Superferry, Inc. CEO, directors and enthusiasts may indeed believe that Superferry, Inc. will make " connecting with friends and families easier and more affordable". Yet, for the traveler, just as there is nothing easier about being transported on the ocean's surface verses being transported in a jet high above the ocean, the costs of the means of transport (water ferry vs. air ferry) is not the major expenditure which creates inter-island traveling restraints on "friends and families" in Hawaii; nor is it most common that inter-island visits' major expenditures are the extra price of an insured rental vehicle (verses, paying for a one's own vehicle to ride Superferry ) at one's destination. The major costs is overwhelmingly more likely than not to be costs related to securing shelter overnight away from one's island of residence.

According to Superferry promotions there is this pent up demand of friends and families who would, but for prohibitively high costs of air ferry, go to other islands to visit with, pay regards to kin and/or friends. To a significantly large degree, I believe that presumption is not true.

Who will be paying Superferry for a round trip of a personal vehicle for a day visit? A three day visit? A week? A month visit? Of those who may travel inter-island on a budget unable to afford air transit, yet able to afford Superferry transit, how many would stay a day, three days, a week , a month? with "friends and families"? with motel, hotel staffs and cashiers? in or on County and State parks, parking lots, public right-of-ways, minimally policed and supervised beaches?

In numbers, how many Oahu residents and transients (borderline and for real) does Superferry expect to be rotating through the islands? Passengers with their vehicles, whatever can be crammed and/or hidden inside them, whatever state of insurance, legality or other condition of the vehicle? For a round trip, of both passenger and vehicle? In numbers, how many similar travelers and their vehicles originating in neighboring islands would be equally needing to go to Oahu by Superferry?

As of Feb 2005, Hawaii Superferry, Inc. is represented on paper as $73 million in shares with 0.001 share par value. Attempting to come into existence on a shoestring of financing, Superferry gives little reason to expect that it will not of necessity be operating likewise, that is, on a shoestring budget: not significantly unlike the financial nature of those toward whom Superferry, Inc. has stated to be focusing its market expectations.

With agricultural inspections and passenger identification security procedures no less effective than those of the airline industry, as a means of transport for passengers only, a six to eight hour round trip channel-crossing ferry could possibly be an enduring, desirable option for some Hawaii residents and tourists. However, given that Superferry, Inc.'s CEO Garibaldi admits "it must be remembered that if the demand for an EIS is passed into law, the Superferry's carefully crafted financing package will fall apart...EIS requirement will sink the Superferry", there is little doubt that Superferry, Inc. has either the financial resources or the will to make the overall consequences of Superferry inter-island operations be more than a socially, culturally disruptive, intrusive and destabilizing speculative commercial adventure putting the last spike into the cause for, the life of what little genuine aloha and sense of community remains on Oahu's neighbor islands.

[waioli kai]

H-4, Not Wanted by Honolulu Neighbors?


With agricultural inspections and passenger identification security procedures no less effective than those of the airline industry, as a means of transport for passengers only, a six to eight hour round trip channel-crossing ferry could possibly be an enduring, desirable option for some Hawaii residents and tourists. However, given that Superferry, Inc.'s CEO Garibaldi admits "it must be remembered that if the demand for an EIS is passed into law, the Superferry's carefully crafted financing package will fall apart...EIS requirement will sink the Superferry", the certainty is presented that Superferry, Inc. has neither the financial resources nor the will to make the overall consequences of Superferry inter-island operations be more than a socially, ecologically, culturally disruptive, intrusive and destabilizing speculative commercial adventure putting the last spike into the cause for, the life of what little genuine aloha and sense of community remains on Oahu's neighbor islands after nearing two centurys' imperialUSism, capitalUSi$m, pirUSy, militarUSism, and other other fascUSt$ characteristics of the Empire of US. US being that 30% or so of the adult populace [/U] {together with their fundamentalist, right-wing, fanatic and/or, ironically, some of the most uneducated and "economically-challenged" in the adult populace of the United States} most benefiting from their Empire's vaccinations {nationalUSt$ wars for Wall Street, nationalUSt$ domestic and international economic sanctions, nationalUSt$ domestic and international subterfuge, nationalUSt$ domestic and international deceit, lies, crimes and cover-ups} toward nationalUSt$' ever greater immunization to universal moral ethical, ecological, and judicial accountability.

'Garibaldi has said the requirement would take up to a year to complete, and would jeopardize $200 million in funding for the ferry system.' Were Superferry to operate as it desires, become ever more vested in the islands' economies, it would effectively cease to be a determining issue whether or not Superferry impacted the islands' environments--- whether social, ecological, cultural or economic, because by then Superferry will indeed be established as the so-called " H-4 " , an extension of the hiways H-1, H-2, H-3 with on/off ramps at each neighbor island's port city. Once begun, Superferry would, as are FCC and FAA related corporatUSt adventures in Hawai'i, be effectively immune to Hawaii Public Utility Commission, immune to actions by neighbor island County Councils and Administrations, immune to being answerable to community concerns, immune to being held accountable for unintended enviromental impacts whether such impacts are of a cumulative nature, or not.

Once begun, Superferry H-4, need not necessarily be profitable, though if it were to prove to be marginally profitable, then to remain so, or to be even more profitable, Superferry may want to create a means to serve a market for which service, and profit from service, cannot legally exist in Hawai'i or its Territorial Waters; but, outside territorial waters such services are not federally illegal: gambling and prostitution being among such operations.

Once in service, Superferry H-4, may, like other "utilities" be essentially guaranteed by the PUC to be able to establish profitable fares, if not as well be financially susidized directly by federal and/or state governments to operate "in the national interests", "in the interests of the community" (which community? the corporatUSt community of the U.S.? the corporatUSt community of the State of Hawaii? each island's unique social, political and cultural community? the small business community? our neighborhood community? Since all together are most certainly not just one wholesome, happy, equally vested ($, $ origins, origins of birth, connection to a'ina, ...), equally secure community of humans ans other species.

'Superferry EIS

"I read with amusement the letter to the editor "Superferry" in which the individual who wrote the letter stated it was too bad the Native Hawaiians did not have environmental impact statements. Unfortunately, in the past people were allowed to ravage, waste, and destroy land and natural resources with little or no penalty or punishment. Fortunately today there are laws that protect our land and environment against selfish and abusive people and corporations.

"The second statement was that "this ain't paradise anymore". I would disagree, and I believe the majority of the people who live on this island, and the millions who come to visit, would agree that this is paradise. Anyone who does not, please move to Detroit." '--E. Voorhies

[kimo55]

' Fortunately today there are laws that protect our land and environment against selfish and abusive people and corporations.



boy... how I wish that were actually true.

[mel]

http://macpro.freeshell.org/superferry/Images/10.jpg

The Superferry will offer Hawaii residents and visitors an affordable way for interisland travel and commerce. People will be seated in aircraft style seats and have free reign of the cabin as they pass the majestic vistas that make up the islands of Hawaii. Polls have indicated that Hawaii residents want the Superferry as an interisland transportation alternative. Save the Superferry! :)

_______________________________________

This is a liberal inundation zone.

[waioli kai]

I and my family were among the first aboard when Superferry prototype Spirit of Ontario was in Hawaii and open to the public. The ferry (at least when sitting still at the dock) is a remarkable boat. It is the ferry's transport of private vehicles from Oahu that I object to, not the passengers themselves. I also am sceptical of the ferry's ecological, enviromental impacts; the financing of the project; the suitability of infrastructure in neighbor island ports for docking, loading and unloading, parking, wastes collections, cargo staging areas.

Even if the price of a round trip ferry were the same price as an airline ticket I would rather load my family onto a water ferry than put us all on the same plane, although we have done the latter plenty of times.

Air vs. ferry, I think it is ridiculous to suggest that a difference of $20 or so in the cost of a passenger ticket is going to foster more residents traveling interisland, when all other costs associated with such visits remain unchanged when otherwise increasing like everything else. The poorer families and individuals of Hawaii toward whom this Superferry proposal is being marketed are also the least likely among us to be able to afford to take off from their jobs to go travelling in the first place, even if they had relatives who could accomodate the visitors with shelter and grinds when they got to the island they were to visit. As for the economically strapped, unemployed and/or unemployable "traveling" Hawaii residents, they are as likely to purchase one-way ferry tickets for themselves and a junk car to take their chances on an outer island, as to stay on Oahu and compete for shelter and whatnot.

[waioli kai]

' Fortunately today there are laws that protect our land and environment against selfish and abusive people and corporations.' --Eric Voorhies

"boy... how I wish that were actually true." --Kimo55


Yes, Mr. Voorhies was most likely comparing "today" with earlier times in Hawaii and elsewhere in the U.S., U.S. territories and possessions. Without such a statement as his being taken in a comparative context, it is indeed pathetically facetious.

[craigwatanabe]

I also was one of the priviledged few that had the opportunity to board the Super Ferry when it arrived in Honolulu Harbor. It is a fantastic vessel. Also as for vehicles leaving the harbor, it is a double-deck design whereas the first level of cars exit then the ramp drops and the second level of vehicles can depart.

For me taking a car back and forth allows me as a resident of Hawaii not to have to rent a car as I had to do when I went back to Honolulu last week for a funeral at a cost of $380 for a minivan for four days. I stayed at the Queen Kapiolani and not in my rental at Kapiolani Park. I hardly think the homeless will be so much of a problem with them living in their cars.

I honestly believe the bulk of vehicular cargo will be commercial trucks and delivery vans. Imagine Frito Lay being able to drive their delivery vans onto the Super Ferry and delivering their product directly to those stores instead of having to air or ocean freight them in and rely on a third party delivery to ship to the stores! City Mill and Office Depot can now deliver to the neighbor islands without having to rely on another shipper. And Mike McKenna can deliver his new cars to each island cheaper than YB could!

That's what I envision how the Super Ferry will be transporting vehicles, more on the commercial side rather than personal and that's where I see the more negative impact being on third party delivery/shippers on the neighbor islands as well as neighbor island car dealers whose prices are noticebly higher than cars sold on Oahu.

[waioli kai]

Superficial Savings / Superferry Hype

craig watanabe::For me taking a car back and forth allows me as a resident of Hawaii not to have to rent a car as I had to do when I went back to Honolulu last week for a funeral at a cost of $380 for a minivan for four days. I stayed at the Queen Kapiolani and not in my rental at Kapiolani Park.

You rented a minivan, why did you not rent a car, since you say, had you been able you would have paid for a car (and yourself ?) to ride (round-trip, RT, for the car? and yourself?) a water ferry over (and back?) for those four days? Did you ride the minivan alone during the funeral gatherings? How did the van's utility compare with the car you claim you prefer to have taken for the occasion?

So, over the period of four days, if you had been able to pay in advance $100 for a RT for your mechanically sound, modestly polluting, insured car compared to your renting a similar car, had you rented a mid-sized car in Honolulu for around $110 (phone quote$ Avis rep) instead of a minivan for $295 (@ $380 you must have requested "extras") you would have saved $4.
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craig: I hardly think the homeless will be so much of a problem with them living in their cars.

Just because one (some) of "the homeless" may be living out of a vehicle doesn't mean the vehicle belongs to the person(s). However, even assuming the possession/occupation of a car is not illegitimate, is such a person(s) and his (their) vehicle(s) more likely to "visit" from Oahu to a neighbor island, or vice versa?
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craig: I honestly believe the bulk of vehicular cargo will be commercial trucks and delivery vans. Imagine Frito Lay being able to drive their delivery vans onto the Super Ferry and delivering their product directly to those stores instead of having to air or ocean freight them in and rely on a third party delivery to ship to the stores!

Yes, you, I and some others imagine such newly incorporated crossing-the-channels competition against Young Brothers, such newly possible Honolulu competition against existing neighbor island delivery companies, such newly possible Honolulu competition against neighbor island WalMarts, HomeDepots, Costcos and KMarts as well as against neighbor island small businesses that have so far survived the newly emerged mega-chain stores. I've spoken with Young Brother's, existing neighbor island delivery companies reps and various small business owners....you needn't believe what I report, make some calls yourself; perhaps, you will find out that at this point in time with regard to Superferry, the vast majority of Oahu 's neighbor island independent business people can't yet see the ball, muchless pick it up and drop it!! It is no wonder Hawaii Superferry, Inc. does not want an EIS, especially as neighbor island residents become more cognizant of the most likely overall impact of investment/operation proposals of Hawaii Superferry, Inc.
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craig: And Mike McKenna (http://www.hawaiibusiness.cc/hb32005/default.cfm?articleid=15) can deliver his new cars to each island cheaper than YB could!
For a newly sold vehicle in Honolulu being ferried to a neighbor island purchaser, who would be paying the freight for the vehicle? How does to the cost of the vehicle compare to the alleged difference in cost between the vehicle's being ferried by Superferry or being ferried by Young Brothers ** ?
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How Much Will It Cost to Ship My Vehicle? (http://www.htbyb.com/Ship_vehicles/Cost_To_Ship_A_Vehicle.asp)
The cost to ship your vehicle will depend on the weight and the destination. Young Brothers has three automobile rates based on the weight of the vehicle:
As stated in Tariff 5-A (http://www.htbyb.com/tariff_information/overview.asp), an "Automobile" is "any four-wheeled, rubber tired, self-propelled, passenger motor vehicle in operable condition designed for the carriage of not more than 10 passengers on public streets and highways. To include but not limited to pick-up trucks under 6,500 pounds and mini-vans. This rate does not apply to racecars on trailers, recreational vehicles (RV), buses and any vehicle over 6,500 pounds."

One Way Vehicle Rates To/From Honolulu

0 - 2,500 lbs. $128 to $149

2,501 - 4,000 lbs. $149 to $175

4,001 - 6,500 lbs. $208 to $241

In addition, Young Brothers has discounted Round Trip Return rates for vehicles returned to the port of origin within 30 days of availability at the port of destination. The shipper must provide proof of the prior movement.

Discounted Round Trip Return Rate within 30 days

0 - 2,500 lbs. $53 - $64

2,501 - 4,000 lbs. $57 - $72

4,001 - 6,500 lbs. $75 - $92

Actual freight charges may be found in the Tariff 5-A. All cargo movements are subject to wharfage.
Vehicles subject to the Roll-On/Roll Off Cargo rate is based on a cubic measurement foot rate. Actual freight charges may be found in the Tariff 5-A. All cargo movements are subject to wharfage

McKenna bows out (http://starbulletin.com/2000/08/30/news/story1.html#jumpMike)
Just days short of the deadline to bid on the Honolulu Star-Bulletin, one potential buyer appears to be bowing out, while two others are considering joining forces.
An investor group headed by Windward auto dealer Mike McKenna yesterday notified New Mexico-based newspaper broker Dirks Van Essen & Murray it will withdraw from the process unless the Friday bid deadline is extended.

Mike McKenna's Windward Ford (MVI 2003-117) (http://googleweb.ehawaiigov.org/search?q=cache:http://www.hawaii.gov/dcca/areas/oah/main/press_releases/oah_press_release_nov_2004.pdf+Makena+Hawaii+Inc.&site=my_collection&output=xml_no_dtd&client=my_collection&proxystylesheet=my_collection&) November 2004 Press Release
Hawaii Dept Commerce and Consumer Affairs
MOTOR VEHICLE LICENSING BOARD Respondent Sanction Makena Hawai i Windward, Inc., dba Mike McKenna's Windward Ford (MVI 2003-117)
..

[waioli kai]

craigwatanabe August 21st, 2004 04:00 PM says:
As for the superferry, I just wished it could've come into Hilo Harbor because making that 120-mile drive to Kona to get on that ferry and back doesn't make for a pleasant weekend drive to Oahu. You'll spend about 13-hours in transit total from Hilo to Oahu. In 13-hours I could've flown to Oahu from Hilo, bought everything I needed at Ala Moana, packed and shipped UPS and flown back to Hilo and still have time to go to KTA for some light grocery shopping.
*****

Craig,
As much as your March 25th, 2005 03:37 PM post in this Superferry thread expresses your support for Superferry, apparently Superferry would not be a service that either you or many others from Hilo would be inclined to ride to Honolulu in lieu of airplanes.

Were Superferry to service Hawai'i Island and likely never be directly serving, impacting Hilo on any regular basis, does that moderate your support for Superferry in light of the opposition to Superferry expressed by those of us neighbor island residents who fully expect that Superferry will impact us directly, and, impact our communities in an overall negative way?

Also, have you looked at the schedule for the Big Island? For now this is it:
Honolulu<-->Kawaihae = one daily round trip, 4 days/week (2 off-peak days/week): Lv Honolulu 4pm, Ar Kawaihae 8pm; Lv Kawaihae 9pm, Ar Honolulu 1am to 2am.

^^ I guess the good thing for you would be that when you drove your car off the ferry ramp, you would not have to deal with much traffic. The folks on Kauai do not have quite the same "advantage" in their schedule, though it is nearly similar, whereas only one of Maui's arrival times (@ 4am) will ensure that one's debarking the ferry by motor vehicle will find roads virtually empty of all traffic.

[waioli kai]

Pairadice Channels (http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/HCV/haw_formation.html)

With regard to alleged "saving$", interisland superferried private cars vs. rental cars, my previous post "Superficial Savings / Superferry Hype" should show that for Hawaii residents' relatively brief visits to Oahu or a neighbor island, there exists no savings significant enough to warrant having one's car travel with one interisland.

So what about the alleged "saving$" for just passenger travel interisland, water ferry vs. air ferry? As there are significantly more Superferry peak days than off-peak days (albeit the $ difference is just $10/ticket), when comparing the passenger fares of air vs. water, by taking Superferry instead of a jet airplane, one might save anywhere between 18 and 20 dollars compared to an indirectly purchased airfare ticket; +$8 to -$1 on a directly purchased airfare ticket. The greatest saving$ would be equal to a passenger's getting paid $6 to $7/hour (at least it's a currently minimum wage, even if not a livable one) for the additional time the passenger would be sitting in Superferry compared to sitting in a jet for which airfare one would otherwise have purchased an $80 ticket; the least saving$ would be for those who paid a dollar, or, at best, only saved $8 in a three hour period ferrying over a channel by water, instead of ferrying over a channel by air on a directly purchased ticket. ***
*** Of course there are those Hawaii residents who prefer to view financial transactions from a perceived "greater saving$" perspective. If there is really justice in the world, those residents should by all rights be guaranteed their berth on Superferry to enjoy the rewards of their sense of frugality, right or rite?

When on board Spirit of Ontario (featured prototype for yet to be officially named/completed/fully approved by all parties including the electorate/fully vs. "creatively" funded ferry) with family, trailing in the wake of local political officialdom, at the beginning of what turned into a long line of several hundreds of interested visitors, I was not immediately thoughtful of what must have to be an accumulation of vehicle exhaust fumes during the offboarding and onboarding management (during a scheduled one hour turnaround time) of up to, or the equivalent of, more than 1000 automobiles all driven by their legitimate owners/assignees in, out, around and through a well-planned, secure and environmentally sound waiting and docking facility. Would fuel tankers, hazardous fuels/wastes/products of military, hospital, research, industrial, [ ? terror!st(s) ? ], and/or of unknown origin and/or destination be transported on Superferry below human cargo? Just what will be the wharf, auto traffic and sea vessel protocol in neighbor islands' already stressed and stretched shipping facilities?

Coupons price for fly between island to island in Hawaii,
Aloha Airlines one-way e-ticket via hawaiipackage.com : $80.00

Aloha Airlines (http://www.alohaairlines.com/fly/) direct via alohaairlines.com/fly/ :
Total Taxes USD 10.12
Total Airfare (including taxes) USD 69.00


/\ COMPARE to \/

Superferry (http://hawaiisuperferry.com/fares_and_schedules/default.html) : Proposed, initial,one-way passenger fare structure {Peak days: Friday to Monday; Off-peak days: Tuesdays to Thursdays}

Base Passenger Fare
$50 / $60 Maui & Kauai off-peak / peak
$60 / $70 Big Island

Advance Purchase Passenger Fare
$42 / $52 Maui & Kauai off-peak / peak
$52 / $62 Big Island

Car
$55 / $65 Maui & Kauai off-peak / peak
$65 / $75 Big Island

Pickup / Van
$90 / $100 Maui & Kauai off-peak / peak
$100 / $110 Big Island

/\ COMPARE to \/

Young Brothers, Ltd., One Way Vehicle Rates (http://www.htbyb.com/Ship_vehicles/Cost_To_Ship_A_Vehicle.asp), To/From Honolulu:

2,501 - 4,000 lbs. $149 to $175

Discounted Round Trip Return Rate within 30 days:

2,501 - 4,000 lbs. $57 - $72
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

to/from Honolulu, Superferryschedule (http://hawaiisuperferry.com/fares_and_schedules/schedule.html)One ship service (2007 - mid 2008)Proposed connection schedule*Subject to completion of port infrastructure:


Kahului, Maui = one daily round trip, 7 days/week (2 off-peak days/week): Lv Honolulu 8am, Ar Kahului 11am; Lv Kahului Noon, Ar Honolulu 3pm :: also, 2 days/week (1 off-peak day), Lv Honolulu midnight -1am, Ar Kahului 3 - 4am; Lv Kahului 4 -5am, Ar Honolulu 7 - 8am.

Kawaihae, Hawaii = one daily round trip, 4 days/week (2 off-peak days/week): Lv Honolulu 4pm, Ar Kawaihae 8pm; Lv Kawaihae 9pm, Ar Honolulu 1am to 2am.

Nawiliwili, Kauai = one daily round trip, 3 days/week (1 off-peak day/week): Lv Honolulu 4pm, Ar Nawiliwili 7pm; Lv Nawiliwili 8pm, Ar Honolulu 11pm.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Another interesting consideration is to ponder upon the possible activity (though, ironically, it will be the hours of personal inactivity associated with such water ferry transit that defines for the passenger the activity of transiting from one island wharf to another) of crossing the channels in darkness, in storm and out. There could be some memorable sunrises and sunsets, with and without seasickness, when there are 800 or more souls aboard on their way through pairadice.

[helen]

As far as the cost and time of shipping a car interisland via Young Bros, there is the issue of getting one picked by the docks after you drop off your car to be shipped and picking it up when it gets at the destination.

At least with the Superferry you and the car travel at the same time.

[waioli kai]

helen: "As far as the cost and time of shipping a car interisland via Young Bros, there is the issue of getting one picked by the docks after you drop off your car to be shipped and picking it up when it gets at the destination.

At least with the Superferry you and the car travel at the same time."

With Superferry won't you, or someone you assign (minus their own vehicle to get to the wharf, or at least such an assignee dropped off or accompanied by an additional driver) for the task, have to be at the wharf at the exact moment it is time to offload your vehicle? Will it be worth 3 or 4 hours of your time to babysit your vehicle across a channel if you yourself could fly across for the same price, within minus $1 or 2 to plus $8 to 10 of the price of the passenger water ferry fare?