Electronic Voting in Hawaii

[Konaguy]

I found this in Hawaii.inet-providers newsgroup.

http://tinyurl.com/5sb53

" On September 2nd, a group of concerned citizens met with the
Office of Elections staff, including Dwayne Yoshina, Chief
Elections Officer.

Also present were representatives from Hart Intercivic, makers
of the eSlate voting machine which Hawaii is making much too
much use of this year.

While they are supposedly here for HAVA compliance, in truth
they're currently planned to be available for use by anyone,
with 399 of them out on election day (one in every precinct)."

[pzarquon]

Thanks for the heads up. Without a paper backup (for auditing), I wouldn't touch a "touch screen" voting machine with a ten foot pole. I just mailed in my Absentee Ballot yesterday.

Here are the articles from the Star-Bulletin (http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/20/news/story5.html) and from the Advertiser (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Aug/18/ln/ln23a.html) on the machines. Only the Advertiser notes the concerns over auditing.

Here's the product information page for the HIC eSlate (http://www.hartintercivic.com/solutions/eslate.html). From its form factor and its 'one per precinct' deployment, I can see why they were picked to accommodate handicapped voters. Like the handicapped stall in a bathroom, though, I guess they think they have to let other voters "play" if its otherwise not being used.

I'll definitely write a note to the Office of Elections. I wouldn't care about non-HAVA use if there was a paper component, so I'll at least urge adding that before "full deployment" in future elections.

I guess I should be happy they're not swiss cheese Diebold systems...

[Glen Miyashiro]

The lack of a paper ballot makes me nervous, too. However, according to the Advertiser article, this machine isn't intended to supplant the existing optically-scanned paper ballots (which work just fine); it's supposed to be an additional option for ADA compliance purposes. Of course, in dead-heat races, those few extra votes from the new machines could tip the balance. But votes that close never happen in real life, right?

[pzarquon]

We've had several close races. There was the whole Lingle-Cayetano margin of 1.3 percent in 1998. That same year, Zandra Amaral lost in a Democratic primary for a state House seat on Maui by 90 votes. Alex Sonson lost to Rep. Roy Takumi (D, Pearl City) by nine votes. and Sen. Robert Bunda (D, Wahiawa) beat Gerald Hagino by 15 votes in the Democratic primary.

With 399 of these new machines out there, a systemwide bug could definitely be an issue.

Heck, in 1960, JFK took Hawaii (instead of Nixon) by a razor-thin 115 votes. With Hawaii in some polls showing signs of swinging to the right, and with our polls closing last in the nation... an electoral college tie in the other 49 states could turn our poor state into the next Florida. :eek:

[Linkmeister]

Heck, in 1960, JFK took Hawaii (instead of Nixon) by a razor-thin 115 votes. With Hawaii in some polls showing signs of swinging to the right, and with our polls closing last in the nation... an electoral college tie in the other 49 states could turn our poor state into the next Florida. :eek:

Gag. Lingle would love it, HVCB (or whatever the acronym is these days) would love it, the media would love it, and the rest of us would likely take up arms to avoid it. ;)

[Konaguy]

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?f611aeee-34a8-46b7-9309-416480346b1c

New Voting Procedures Ahead
By Kenneth R. Conklin, 6/14/2004 12:33:24 AM

Kenneth Conklin

This is a description of federally mandated changes in the process of voting,
implemented in Hawaii for the 2004 elections. It's a highly subjective talk-story from someone at the bottom of the food-chain, calling attention to small signs of big changes ahead. I attended a routine training program for precinct election officials. It turned out to be far from routine. Afterward I thought about what happened, and did some research. This is my report to the class on my "excellent adventure."

[Miulang]

Before anyone rushes out and embraces e-voting, please go to the following links for information on some of the flaws that can occur with the current version of the technology (this could be more disastrous than the dangling chad incident in Florida in 2000).

Info on security concerns:http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm
http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf

Info on the current vendors of "black boxes" who currently are in bed with the US government via contributions to various and sundry political causes:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0131-01.htm

Your right as an American to vote for whoever you choose could be seriously jeopardized unless the black box system your government chooses also issues some sort of receipt to you to prove that your vote has been recorded properly.

Miulang

[pzarquon]

Before anyone rushes out and embraces e-voting... I don't know anyone, and certainly no one here so far, who's embracing e-voting. Most folks I know think it's a bad idea, a prospect whose only supporters seem to be e-voting machine manufacturers and those election officials they've managed to enlist as cheerleaders.

Bev Harris has collected more information than you can shake a stick at at her Black Box Voting (http://www.blackboxvoting.com/) site, and has even posted her entire book on the pitfalls of electronic voting online as PDF files.

[pzarquon]

The Star-Bulletin catches up with its own piece (http://starbulletin.com/2004/09/12/news/story3.html) on the concerns over these eSlate machines.Observers from the Democratic and Republican parties and the League of Women Voters said the machines, which will be available in all precincts for the primary election Saturday, should be used only by disabled voters.It cites Jason Forester, the same author of the USENET post linked above, representing "Safe Vote Hawaii (http://www.safevotehawaii.com/)." They (he?) just launched the site on Tuesday.

[manoasurfer123]

This is more along the lines of Online voting....

I find it ironic that kids in Hawaii can vote online at http://www.kidsvotinghawaii.org/ (Even Home schoolers)
(however, it's not counted in the real election only the kidsvoting hawaii election... however, it's nice to see how young kids would have voted)

But adults aren't given an opportunity to vote in real life online.:confused:

[Miulang]

This is more along the lines of Online voting....

But adults aren't given an opportunity to vote in real life online.:confused:
Manoa: There are too many security risks involved with online voting (even more than with electronic voting machines). Would be way too easy to "hack the vote". I wouldn't want a replay of the 2000 national elections, even though I have a very queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach that any part of the country using electronic voting machines exclusively is going to find their results contested, especially if the results are really whacky.

The DoD (http://stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=41284) offered an electronic voting option to all state governments for its service members who wanted to vote but were stationed away from home, but only 8 states took the DoD up on its offer due to the security and privacy issues. Servicemembers apparently are allowed to fax their ballots to the US, though, which is almost as insecure as online voting, unless the faxes go into a secure fax server (as opposed to being printed out).

Miulang

[manoasurfer123]

It seems that if they can have absentee ballots... they should at least try and figure out away to eventually do it.

I honestly think a hacker would hack banks before an election thing...

If banks can keep such secure transactions... it seems somehow they should be able to make online voting secure.

[Miulang]

It seems that if they can have absentee ballots... they should at least try and figure out away to eventually do it.

I honestly think a hacker would hack banks before an election thing...

If banks can keep such secure transactions... it seems somehow they should be able to make online voting secure.
Yeah, but I'm not so sure I would trust the government to come up with a way to do ANYTHING securely!;) For instance, if the US government can have available on a website that is accessible to anyone/anywhere since 1991, plans for building a trigger mechanism in ARABIC for a nuclear weapon to make it easier for the terrorists (to heck with having them have to translate it), then what guarantees could they give me that they wouldn't let someone hack into my personal information? And if they allow that to happen (as opposed to when other organizations lose personal information that face all kinds of legal problems if they allow this to happen), how would the people who are impacted get redress? Can individual citizens sue the government for security breaches? If a class action suit was filed and the government was forced to pay fines, what good would that do? Any money the government paid out in fines to the litigants would have started out in their own pockets in the first place!:mad:

Oregon and a few other states have gone to 100% mail-in ballots, which makes much more sense than online balloting. The one thing I can't quite figure out about Hawai'i voting is why they open "absentee voting" polling places prior to the actual official day of voting? That must be costing the State lots of money that could be used elsewhere. For people who don't want to or can't vote on election day, why not just let them mail in absentee ballots?

Miulang

[manoasurfer123]

Yeah, but I'm not so sure I would trust the government to come up with a way to do ANYTHING securely!
Using the US Post office as a courier for absentee ballots seems to be trusting the government with your vote.

If you can pay your government taxes online... why can't they figure out a way to secure voting online?

I'm sure the government secures the money coming in online from those online payments!

[Miulang]

Using the US Post office as a courier for absentee ballots seems to be trusting the government with your vote.

If you can pay your government taxes online... why can't they figure out a way to secure voting online?

I'm sure the government secures the money coming in online from those online payments!

Well, you don't exactly pay the government directly when you pay your taxes online, either. You use a credit or debit card (and get charged by the government for that privilege on top of what you owe). The bank that issued your credit/debit card is the one who sends the government your tax money.
The federal government does have encrypted methods of receiving money in large amounts from corporate entities, but not from individual citizens.

Miulang

[manoasurfer123]

Well, you don't exactly pay the government directly when you pay your taxes online, either. You use a credit or debit card (and get charged by the government for that privilege on top of what you owe). The bank that issued your credit/debit card is the one who sends the government your tax money.
The federal government does have encrypted methods of receiving money in large amounts from corporate entities, but not from individual citizens.

Miulang

You can also pay by check routing numbers depending on what online tax service you use... once they have that Data... isn't your checking account number (routing number etc.) out there.

To me... my money is more important than my vote... yet I see myself doing weekly transactions online...and a somewhat hesitant attitude to vote when some of the candidates are not worth getting out and voting for at times.

I don't take my vote as a joke...and voting for people that I don't like doesn't make sense. I understand the "Blank Vote" sends a message... however, I honestly believe if they started online voting... that the voter turn-out would be much larger than it is...

IIRC - UH Manoa does there voting for Candidates online as well as in person.

[Miulang]

You can also pay by check routing numbers depending on what online tax service you use... once they have that Data... isn't your checking account number (routing number etc.) out there.

Yes it is, but even with a routing number from your checking account, you're not "really" paying the government directly...it's your bank that's electronically transferring the money to the feds. You're just authorizing your bank to send the funds electronically.

Miulang

[Linkmeister]

Miulang sez:The one thing I can't quite figure out about Hawai'i voting is why they open "absentee voting" polling places prior to the actual official day of voting? That must be costing the State lots of money that could be used elsewhere. For people who don't want to or can't vote on election day, why not just let them mail in absentee ballots?

I voted early at the Pearlridge Satellite City Hall in the primary this year, and I saw maybe two or three personnel working the polls and machines in there. There's already an absentee ballot procedure in place, and I imagine the early votes are counted by the same people in the same way.

I don't think there's much extra cost to running these sites up to the Saturday before election day.

[manoasurfer123]

Yes it is, but even with a routing number from your checking account, you're not "really" paying the government directly...it's your bank that's electronically transferring the money to the feds. You're just authorizing your bank to send the funds electronically.

Miulang
So once again... we are relying on Banks to secure our information instead of the government?

Why can't the government secure our votes?

[Miulang]

Here is some information on online voting (this study (http://www.parliament.uk/post/pn155.pdf)from the UK is very interesting and it does cite some American sources, including California and Arizona). I think the possibility is there, but it's a technology that's still not ready for prime time due to security and privacy issues.

Miulang

[manoasurfer123]

That study was posted in 2001 w/ information that is old and obsolete now.
The California reference was from 2000.

A lot has changed in the digital era...therefore I discredit most of what is said in that article.

The 18 year old voting demographic was 11 - 12 when that study was done.

[GeckoGeek]

Why can't the government secure our votes?

Let's start with the fact that when it comes to your money, it's only a small amount of money. It's not really worth the effort of those who can crack the system. But with your vote, you're talking 4 years of power. A lot more is at stake.

Further more, the ones most interested is the government itself. Trusting the government to secure your vote is like asking Colonel Sanders to babysit your chickens.

The problem with electronic voting is the code used to tally the votes. Code is intangible. It can easily be swapped with malicious code. How could anyone tell? You'd have to go to a ridiculous amount of of verification just to assure the right code is being run - and even then you don't know but what the NSA has somehow circumvented the whole thing.

Paper ballots have bulk. It's harder to switch them without someone noticing. They can be counted and re-counted in a way the average citizen can understand. With e-Voting, you end up trusting a few geeks and hoping they haven't been bought out or been fooled by smarter geeks.

The problems with the paper system can be fixed with better punches. Electronic voting will never be justifiably trusted.

[manoasurfer123]

Let's start with the fact that when it comes to your money, it's only a small amount of money. It's not really worth the effort of those who can crack the system. But with your vote, you're talking 4 years of power. A lot more is at stake.

Whatever, when your bank holds your trust that was built up because of a life times savings of a few generations passed on down... try and tell me it's only a small amount of money.

Or better yet... tell that to all the people with their own accumulated lifetimes savings in the banks?

If the banks can secure our information...the government should be able to find a way to secure a Vote. With the amount of Banking transactions one does each year compared to the amount of times one votes in a lifetime....there should be a way to secure it.

[blueyecicle]

Reading all these posts about voting makes me happy Oregon is all MAIL in ballots! It is so easy and convenient!

[GeckoGeek]

One of the biggest differences between banks and elections is that banking is a closed loop. You get to review the charges and notify the bank if there's a problem. Either the bank or the merchant "eats it" if it's found to be fraud. And it's only money. You can be refunded.

Elections? That's your final answer. No exchanges, no returns. And it's not a closed loop - and for a good reason.

[TuNnL]

I honestly think a hacker would hack banks before an election thing... If banks can keep such secure transactions... it seems somehow they should be able to make online voting secure.These are very naïve assumptions on both fronts. Fortunes are made and lost, Mānoa, based on who is in office. Enron and Halliburton are perfect examples.

As far as your assertion that banks keep their transactions secure, I suggest you watch the movie “Swordfish” starring John Travolta and Hugh Jackman. With those ideas fresh in your mind, do your research. Internet Explorer is based 128-bit encryption but the value of this technology is only realized in secure internet protocol (https). Yet somehow, the browser has developed the reputation as one of the least secure methods of doing banking, business, or anything else requiring privacy. ‘Phishing’ is rampant, and online transactions are a cornerstone of the multi-billion dollar identity theft industry.

When was the last time you did some real research (the kind that would take too long using google.com)?

[Glen Miyashiro]

Who is it again who makes the ballot machines we use here in Hawaiʻi? Because I sure hope it's not Diebold. They don't seem to take security that seriously. They had a photo of the keys they use for their machines on their online store -- the keys were already cut, and the photo had enough detail that you could make a working copy from them (http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/01/homemade_key_op.html). :eek: