Heiau

[kimo55]

very intrigued with heiau.
wanna know what people think of the supposed tradition of wrapping a rock in ti leaf and leaving it at heiau or other places of significance.

and also; what's the story behind "pork over the pali"?
any anecdotes?

[pzarquon]

The "Pork Over the Pali" tale was discussed earlier (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=2086) here. As for paying tribute at heiau, I don't really know myself. I've never entered or passed near one, knowingly at least, and I'll probably try to keep it that way!

But here's an interesting document, posted online as a PDF, titled, "Basic Protocol at Hawaiian Sacred Places (http://www.rrhi.com/northwesternhawaiianislands/maunakea/pdf/W.pdf)." It asserts:For instance, thousands of visitors and residents go to the various National Parks (i.e., Volcano, Honaunau, Haleakala) and leave an offering of a ti leaf wrapped around a stone. Native Hawaiians are offended by these “stone laulau” offererings that: a. often are stones and ti leaves removed from the sacred site itself, thereby adding to the damage and desecration; b. have no cultural meaning and therefore are considered to be disrespectful and offensive to the “gods” and that place; and c. are left at inappropriate areas throughout the sacred place, thus the offering becomes a desecration in itself. What should you do? The author says:
Offerings are not required. Your silent prayers or chants are an offering in itself. Most offerings are done in more formalized rituals or ceremonies. The simple rule when making offerings is to bring items of flowers, ferns or other greenery, and non-meat items. If you are unsure, then do not bring anything. If there is no kahu taking care of a sacred place, then the offerings often accumulate and begin to litter the area rather than be an enhancement for the gods. The site hosting the document is the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands section of KAHEA, the "Hawaiian Environmental Alliance." YMMV!

[Miulang]

I really really wanted to go see the Iliiliopae heiau when we were on Molokai last week, but it's on private property and we couldn't contact the owner (or arrange for a local tour guide) to get permission to visit the place.

We have been to one of the largest heiaus in the state (located in Hana) and there's a pretty large one near Wailuku. Whenever I go there, I get this warm feeling of peace and serenity because even though the heiaus now are in some pretty windswept, desolate places, the spirits of the ancient people are still there. And while I'm contemplating things at one of the heiau, I also offer pule for the kanaka maole and their ancestors because if the first Hawaiians had not discovered the islands, lord knows where I'd be today. I don't take any kind of offering with me except for the pule and I hope that the mana from the place will protect me from harm.

Miulang

[Glen Miyashiro]

I may not be native Hawaiian, but I know enough about Hawaiian culture to be annoyed when I see those ti-wrapped stones lying around at old heiau. It's disrespectful.

Along the same lines, sometimes I see travel websites that actually encourage visitors to do this and claim that it's a native tradition. Ugh. That's right down there in the gutter along with all that New Age "huna" stuff that actually has nothing to do with Hawai'i except for the stolen name.

[kimo55]

I may not be native Hawaiian, but I know enough about Hawaiian culture to be annoyed when I see those ti-wrapped stones lying around at old heiau. It's disrespectful.

Along the same lines, sometimes I see travel websites that actually encourage visitors to do this and claim that it's a native tradition. Ugh. That's right down there in the gutter along with all that New Age "huna" stuff that actually has nothing to do with Hawai'i except for the stolen name.

yep. theres another aspect of this kinda thing;
people jumping on the tiki fad disrespecting the sacred images while turning it into a cartoonish joke.
profane haoles dotting the mainland and giving themselves nicknames like:

akua ku sue.

kanaka

lord wahini

lono.
and claiming ties to Hawaii cuz they like their dizzyland version of "tiki" which is now a decor style. No longer an image of a Polynesian god...

re defining and appropriating Hawaiian words and phrases for their own use;
mana = a positive flow of energy.

heiau;
cemetary.

"the aloha" a physical thing.

crazy world, aint it.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Well yeah Kimo, but tiki kitsch is disrespectful in a whole 'nother way. It never claims to be authentic. :D I don't mind folks poking fun at stuff, even stuff I believe in. After all, I poke fun at other people, so I can't be hypocritical about it. It's folks who claim to be sincere and authentic, who aren't, that bother me.

[kimo55]

Well yeah Kimo, but tiki kitsch is disrespectful in a whole 'nother way. It never claims to be authentic.

It's folks who claim to be sincere and authentic, who aren't, that bother me.

thats what i am saying.
many feel they represent Hawaii and think they own the true and only history and legend of the above. claiming to be the only avenue and repository of the history of 'tiki" and then we see, as i state, Hawaiian words and aspects of polynesian history and culture being warped and misrepresented.

[kamlost]

Someone should look up a historian to end all these wrong doings and traditions! A lot of the good ones have passed on yah? :\

[Peshkwe]

thats what i am saying.
many feel they represent Hawaii and think they own the true and only history and legend of the above. claiming to be the only avenue and repository of the history of 'tiki" and then we see, as i state, Hawaiian words and aspects of polynesian history and culture being warped and misrepresented.

Heh....then there's a full on major twinkie alert over at the HA board!

Ummm...this is a twinkie (it's based in an Ndn culture set, but it'd translate over to Hawaiian real easy):

http://www.geocities.com/planettwinkie/WhatIs.html

[kimo55]

Heh....then there's a full on major twinkie alert over at the HA board!

Ummm...this is a twinkie (it's based in an Ndn culture set, but it'd translate over to Hawaiian real easy):

http://www.geocities.com/planettwinkie/WhatIs.html


is the HA board the link you gave?

it was innuresting...
in fak i laughed harrrrrd. verry funny.
and true!
Serge King should se this.


BTW; not that I usually know these things...
but..
a twinkie is a common term in the gay world:

"twinkie: gay slang for a young gay man admired for his good looks and slim build, but not for his intellect"


NOT that there's anything wrong with that!

[Miulang]

Heh....then there's a full on major twinkie alert over at the HA board!

Ummm...this is a twinkie (it's based in an Ndn culture set, but it'd translate over to Hawaiian real easy):

http://www.geocities.com/planettwinkie/WhatIs.html

Ho Peshkwe!
I really really like that definition of Twinkie. Never heard of it before, but it sure does make sense...just like "Apple" (red on the outside, white on the inside) and Oreo (black on the outside and white on the inside). Translated to Hawai'i, would a Hawaiian twinkie be a "coconut"?

What's even sadder is that people of color who should be proud of their cultures/heritages very often adopt the white core when faced with the possibility of having to learn about their ancestors (yuck), and instead of standing up to discrimination, take the easier course and adopt the ways of the predominant culture.

The most eye-opening epiphany occurs when a person who was once part of the "predominant" culture gets put in the middle of another community where s/he becomes the minority. Yeow. Talk about role reversal.

Miulang

[Peshkwe]

is the HA board the link you gave?

it was innuresting...
in fak i laughed harrrrrd. verry funny.
and true!
Serge King should se this.


BTW; not that I usually know these things...
but..
a twinkie is a common term in the gay world:

"twinkie: gay slang for a young gay man admired for his good looks and slim build, but not for his intellect"


NOT that there's anything wrong with that!

Not that link, this would be the link for the individual in question:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=200727#post200727

But if that 'Twinkie' link made you laugh you should really like this one:

12 Steps For Recovering New Agers (http://www.snakelyone.com/12step.htm)

[Peshkwe]

Ho Peshkwe!
I really really like that definition of Twinkie. Never heard of it before, but it sure does make sense...just like "Apple" (red on the outside, white on the inside) and Oreo (black on the outside and white on the inside). Translated to Hawai'i, would a Hawaiian twinkie be a "coconut"?

What's even sadder is that people of color who should be proud of their cultures/heritages very often adopt the white core when faced with the possibility of having to learn about their ancestors (yuck), and instead of standing up to discrimination, take the easier course and adopt the ways of the predominant culture.

The most eye-opening epiphany occurs when a person who was once part of the "predominant" culture gets put in the middle of another community where s/he becomes the minority. Yeow. Talk about role reversal.

Miulang

Well in the terms of that site and for most Ndn peeps a 'twinkie' is more the New Age/Cultural thief type person rather than a slam against someone who doesn't act in accordance to an internal cultural role....

The 'apple/coconut' thing is more a slam towards the Ndn acting dominate culture(white) when s/he comes back to the Rez or the Hawaiian coming home from the mainland from college (or working/living away awhile) with a different vocabulary and education and different social habits. The slam comes when their homies are trying to bust chops or the person is getting a bit show-offy and needs to step it back a notch for communications sake, or if an individual has thrown away their culture and heritage (tapping it only when it's convienient) because of being ashamed of it for the most part.

A 'Twinkie' is a person who will take an aspect of a culture's spirituality twist up with some other stuff (each bit possibly true in it's own individual way) and they'll call it true whole cloth...then talk it up with a golden throat. If you dare to confront them they claim you are ignorant, since each thing they do ~is~ true...yup-yup...it is!!...as individual pieces belonging to their own particular culture/thing, mash them together tho and you have a real mess of a lie that has the glamour of truth to it....but lets face it, the best way to lie is to tell part of the truth an then shut the hell up isn't it? Some move on from simple twinkiness to full on 'I'll sell it to ya for a fee' shamans aka Plastic Shame-ons.

A perfect example is the author Mary Summer Rain...she's MAJOR Twinkie...she's a non-Ndn (middle-eastern blood, I think Lebonese) from Westland Michigan (Wasteland...bleh...land of stepford wife suburbia). The biggest plastic shame-on of them all is Sun Bear and his Bear Tribe.

I've noticed y'all are getting the plastic shame-ons scamming folks with the Hawaiian aspects of <cue synthisyzed backgound music and nature effects>OOOoooo...Aaahhhhhhh......SPIRTCHUL-ALITY!!!!

Ten to one with the rock laulau's, it was some new age rock rubbin' bliss bunny that came up with it by mixing Hawaiian stuff with Ndn stuff substituting the ti leaf for a tobacco leaf (which without the rock, would prolly be a good prayer offering if you were Ndn and it was done the right way). Prolly figgerd..."hey I can do the locals one better" and somehow it caught on.

[Ailina]

Translated to Hawai'i, would a Hawaiian twinkie be a "coconut"?
So, assuming this term--or a like one--finds its way into usage in Hawai'i, what would distinguish a "coconut" from a brown person who was raised with "white core," but is no less proud of her culture/heritage? Would it apply to only people Born & Raised in Hawai'i who should be "brown/brown"? Or would it also apply to brown people raised on the mainland who enter/reenter Hawaiian society?

Obviously, this thread would make me feel a little uncomfortable, because I really have to go out of my way to learn about where the "brown" part of me came from, and there's an inherent "brown" element that Hawai'i-raised people possess is not inherent in me--either that, or the "white" element is just a lot stronger.

I also wonder if/how "coconut" would apply to other individuals in similar circumstances. For instance, I know a Hawaiian (blood) family...the dad was Born & Raised, but the kids were raised with "white core." They've grown up intensely aware of their Hawaiian heritage; they are culturally Hawaiian as well, but their "white core" is most evident. They enjoy country music (and Hawaiian music), they speak with a noticable Southern accent (but are familiar with the Hawaiian language), they enjoy "white" things...the same kinds of things that typically warrant the term "Oreo" or "Apple" when applied to other races. Would this make them "coconuts," too?

It's an intriguing and disturbing question for me, because here on the mainland, there are so many of us 2nd-generation who feel especially removed from our culture/heritage. Terms like "coconut," though obviously not in use now, feel a little theatening.

I acknowledge it's probably all about context. As with the Twinkie website link--which I thought was funny, too--"Twinkie" or "coconut" might only apply to people who have less than honorable intentions, or as Kimo said, have a tendency to misrepresent and/or warp Hawaiian words and aspects of polynesian history and culture.

It's just that terms like that, that usually have innocent beginnings, usually end up carrying the same stigma as many other tabu words.

My spare change...

[Ailina]

Well in the terms of that site and for most Ndn peeps a 'twinkie' is more the New Age/Cultural thief type person rather than a slam against someone who doesn't act in accordance to an internal cultural role....

The 'apple/coconut' thing is more a slam towards the Ndn acting dominate culture(white) when s/he comes back to the Rez or the Hawaiian coming home from the mainland from college (or working/living away awhile) with a different vocabulary and education and different social habits. The slam comes when their homies are trying to bust chops or the person is getting a bit show-offy and needs to step it back a notch for communications sake, or if an individual has thrown away their culture and heritage (tapping it only when it's convienient) because of being ashamed of it for the most part.

I missed this post, because I think we were writing at the same time. You've addressed some of the things I was thinking about as I was writing.

[Peshkwe]

Yup the snack cake and the wannabe cultural thief have alot in common, both have a sweet desireable golden coating, covering a center of fluff.

And both have absolutely no nutritional value whatsoever....they'll either rot your body or your soul.

[Miulang]

Ho Peshkwe!
Thank you for your insights "from the other side". I knew a Wampanoag medicine man in Boston (Slow Turtle) who told me things that really opened my eyes to what has happened to the Ndn. I didn't realize, for one thing, that the tribes didn't have a legal right to vote (ha!) until the late 40s or 50s and that it took an act of Congress to give the Native Americans a right that should have been theirs from the beginning. It was because of Slow Turtle, though, that as a non-Ndn (but as a nonwhite) I began to realize that it's all about respect: for yourself, for others, for nature.

I never attended any of the powwows that Sun Bear used to have in the PNW, but I have attended some of the local powwows. It makes me happy to see that the newest generations of Ndns are learning about their heritage and are proud to do their dances and learn their languages. In much the same way, I am happy that there is a Renaissance of learning about the Hawaiian culture both in the 'aina and here on the Mainland.

The tribes and the kanaka maole face the same types of struggles, which is why, I think, at least in the PNW, there have been attempts to bring together both nations in meaningful ways to discuss common issues. There are several local tribes here who are fighting for official tribal status, much in the way that the Native Hawaiians are pushing for sovereignty. (The tribes don't want to establish their own sovereign nations, though. They just want to be legally recognized so they can tap into the federal funding and special rights given to recognized tribes)

I'm still not sure if BIA or OHA really are serving the interests of the people they are supposed to serve because for the most part, their management is rife with the white-cored type people.

But I also sense a conundrum here: if someone doesn't get educated, how will they be able to make changes to help their people? Can there be such a thing as an "egg" person? (White on the outside but yellow on the inside...having to appear and act white in order to work within the system to make changes to benefit the inner core?)

Interesting, indeed.

Miulang

[Peshkwe]

Ho Peshkwe!
Thank you for your insights "from the other side". I knew a Wampanoag medicine man in Boston (Slow Turtle) who told me things that really opened my eyes to what has happened to the Ndn. I didn't realize, for one thing, that the tribes didn't have a legal right to vote (ha!) until the late 40s or 50s and that it took an act of Congress to give the Native Americans a right that should have been theirs from the beginning. It was because of Slow Turtle, though, that as a non-Ndn (but as a nonwhite) I began to realize that it's all about respect: for yourself, for others, for nature.

I never attended any of the powwows that Sun Bear used to have in the PNW, but I have attended some of the local powwows. It makes me happy to see that the newest generations of Ndns are learning about their heritage and are proud to do their dances and learn their languages. In much the same way, I am happy that there is a Renaissance of learning about the Hawaiian culture both in the 'aina and here on the Mainland.

The tribes and the kanaka maole face the same types of struggles, which is why, I think, at least in the PNW, there have been attempts to bring together both nations in meaningful ways to discuss common issues. There are several local tribes here who are fighting for official tribal status, much in the way that the Native Hawaiians are pushing for sovereignty. (The tribes don't want to establish their own sovereign nations, though. They just want to be legally recognized so they can tap into the federal funding and special rights given to recognized tribes)

I'm still not sure if BIA or OHA really are serving the interests of the people they are supposed to serve because for the most part, their management is rife with the white-cored type people.

But I also sense a conundrum here: if someone doesn't get educated, how will they be able to make changes to help their people? Can there be such a thing as an "egg" person? (White on the outside but yellow on the inside...having to appear and act white in order to work within the system to make changes to benefit the inner core?)

Interesting, indeed.

Miulang

HA!! The BIA has "lost" billions of tribal monies, they just plain ol dunno where it is and so the Nations or individuals that are owed it go without. If OHA is anything like the BIA...~ouch~...

Broken Trust (http://www.indiantrust.com/)


Education, gathering knowedge and the learning wisdom of how to use that education is imperative if any culture is to survive, other than the bland homogenized drone like one being forced onto the general populace.

It's a not like having to wear a mask or playing 'white' on the outside while being 'yellow' on the inside....hrrm...it's more like walking a tight rope with one of those long balance poles in your hands. On one side of the pole you have your culture to keep alive with all it's richness and special uniqueness. On the other side of the pole you have the world of business, technology and the day to day interactions with everyone else and their personal cultures, so requiring a certain amount of standardization (ie: the dominate American society standard drone). To move forward you have to learn to balance that pole just so, too far to one side or the other stops your progress and you'll either not be able to deal with the dominate mass culture or you'll totally lose your personal culture.

Off balancing either way for a whole group of people can mean death of the culture in the long run. The results of off balancing to the dominate mass Americanized culture is obvious. The other side not so, if a group doesn't help their young to learn to balance both worlds more young will throw the culture away than keep it strong, it's easier to go with the flow than to fight against it.

My thoughts on it anyhoo

[Kalani]

I really really wanted to go see the Iliiliopae heiau when we were on Molokai last week, but it's on private property and we couldn't contact the owner (or arrange for a local tour guide) to get permission to visit the place.
Why did you go to Molokai? You know someone there?

[Rickyrab]

Why did you go to Molokai? You know someone there?

Maybe someone might go to Molokai to see what it's like.

Oops. Old thread. My bad for responding.

[AbsolutChaos]

It's kinda unfair to expect ignorant people to respect local ways and to know that to do the whole ti-wrapping-leaf thing if you're a non-Hawaiian is disrespectful. When the "local" guide encourages you to do so, as a tourist you tend to wholeheartedly and with good intentions follow his/her lead. People always want to "belong" and "contribute" to a culture, even if it's a fleeting contribution. It feels good to "contribute," even if it is done out of ignorance. It's not done to be intentionally disrespectful...it's usually a misguided attempt to honor the culture you are visiting .

The problem I have is with all the guides that encourage visiting people to do so. THEY are the ones who should know better and should explain the significance so that more of this behavior is discouraged.

Hope this makes sense...it's late...I need to get some sleep. I'll probably have to add to my post in da' morning to clarify all my hastily typed words. Night, all...

[Glen Miyashiro]

It's kinda unfair to expect ignorant people to respect local ways and to know that to do the whole ti-wrapping-leaf thing if you're a non-Hawaiian is disrespectful. When the "local" guide encourages you to do so, as a tourist you tend to wholeheartedly and with good intentions follow his/her lead. People always want to "belong" and "contribute" to a culture, even if it's a fleeting contribution. It feels good to "contribute," even if it is done out of ignorance. It's not done to be intentionally disrespectful...it's usually a misguided attempt to honor the culture you are visiting .

The problem I have is with all the guides that encourage visiting people to do so. THEY are the ones who should know better and should explain the significance so that more of this behavior is discouraged.Sure. I don't get all that annoyed with Howard and Marge from Topeka, because they don't know any better. I do get annoyed with "Kawika" from Santa Barbara who's been in the islands for a year and is working as a tour guide and giving tourists misinformation because he's too damned lazy to find out the real story and instead makes something up. :mad:

[Rickyrab]

Sure. I don't get all that annoyed with Howard and Marge from Topeka, because they don't know any better. I do get annoyed with "Kawika" from Santa Barbara who's been in the islands for a year and is working as a tour guide and giving tourists misinformation because he's too damned lazy to find out the real story and instead makes something up. :mad:

Heck, I was so uninformed when I saw Kalaiea Heiau (the one at Ka Lae, whatever the actual name was) that I didn't know that one was "supposed" to do anything with rocks and ti leaves, let alone that a non-Hawaiian wasn't supposed to do that. So I merely looked at the offerings already there, didn't do anything to disturb them, didn't add anything, didn't subtract anything, and left to look out at the sea and the coastal rocks.

[Pomai]

A few months back while visiting Kauai, we stopped by Poliahu Heiau (http://www.kauai-hawaii.com/destinations.php?22), which stands alongside the Wailua River, as you drive up Kuamo'o Rd.

There are signs in front that clearly forbid visitors from tampering or removing anything within the perimeter of the Heiau. Tourists there at the time of our visit were very respectful.

[kimo55]

It's kinda unfair to expect ignorant people to respect local ways

..... many of them are seen trodding upon heiau, removing or moving pohaku, leaving things on the heiau, crossing the kapu line and entering the sacred enclosure at heiau all over Oahu as well as the FtDerussy Memorial for fallen maoli warriors. I was once doing a shoot at Puuhonua o Honaunau and these german tourists actually removed the fence enclosure of the Hale o Keawe temple and entered so they could get a picture of themselves next to the ki'i. I roundly berated them and told them to expect well... don't remember exactly what I said, but implied it is extremely bad luck to commit such a disrespectful damaging trespass and possibly ill fortune will befall these cretins.

it is thoughtless, stems from a lack of education, a lack of breeding, of consideration, cultural sensitivity...
These louts, inured to the sensitivity required while visiting other cultures, live in a society that unfortunately, continually believes nothing is sacred. anything is game for ridicule, exploitation, for commercialization. So; they say to themselves; Since I see goofy looking tikis in party supply centers and plastic tikis available in the dollar stores nationwide, and I see the sacred godhead of Polynesia on sportswear swinging gold clubs, and others reinforce that it's ok to challenge, well this means I have no need to keep my distance, I can walk all over heiau, litter on sacred ground, make childish rude comments when I am exposed to the ancient carved gods of Polynesia when visiting the Bishop Museum...

Not only do many NOT exhibit a little respect, they display belligerence, antagonism and they argue for their right to be an ay-hole. And in front of their impressionable children. When they are told; "kapu; stay on the other side of the chain. stay away from the ki'i. This area is kapu!" They don't back up, Instead, they argue: "Hey. We're just looking." What kinda example do they offer others? what kind of a jerk are they teaching their kids to grow up to be?! What diminished, corrupt form of a 'man' are they telling the world they have grown into? What is the lesson? "My offspring can grow up to do whatever they damn well please and show disrespect toward other cultures and fight with the representatives of the foreign cultures and 'religious icons' ".

vive la ugly americain

Nope. I say; some things are sacred and should be treated as such. And supposedly, mature thinking adults should show respect. I can't see how some feel comfortable belittling the things held in highest regard by a society and culture far removed from their own, that has been beaten down for so long by foreigners. When will they acheive satisfaction in their perniciously rapacious wanton ways?! How can they sleep with themselves?

just as the highest deities (Jesus, Mary, the concept of their God... and the images of jesus on the cross...) in christianity are sacred to many americans... (THEY call them sacred, so I can respect that. ) just so; Ku, Kane, Kanaloa, Lono, Hina, Pele... and others, all are sacred to many Hawaiians, ancient and modern. you see: "sacred" is defined as worthy of religious veneration... entitled to reverence and respect.

[Pomai]

Here's the actual photos we took of Poli'ahu Heiau on Kauai. The diagram shows how the rock perimeter and structures within (which no longer exist) are laid out. Poli'ahu Heiau, the largest on Kauai, is located high above Wailua River, which is below to the left (out of view).

http://www.96seven44.com/images/poliahu.jpg
The pedestal diagram had Plexiglass over it that was really weathered and scratched.

You can download the Poliahu Heiau Brochure PDF here (http://www.hawaii.gov/dlnr/dsp/brochures/PoliahuHeiau.pdf).

Note: Before taking pictures, we made sure to see if it was ok. No sign mentioned pictures being forbidden. Only tampering, removing, climbing on or within the rock perimeter was listed as Kapu. You are allowed to walk right up to that little wooden sign in the middle and that's it. Out of respect, we kept our distance to the pedestal display.

Image hosted by www.96Seven44.com (http://www.96seven44.com)