Bishop Museum backs down

[Miulang]

In this morning's Star Bulletin, the lead story says that the Bishop Museum will probably not petition to be recognized as a "native group" after all. If you read the whole story, it appears that federal funding, more than anything else, is what's swaying the directors to be inclined to vote against the petition (at least that's what I think the Star Bulletin is implying).

Personally, I think this is a prudent move on the part of the Bishop board, and not for the financial reasons that seem to be the swaying factor. Museums are meant to be cultural respositories and their mission should be to hold in trust cultural icons and other items of archeological significance. However, what could any future generation learn from the bones of an ancestor? As for the religious icons, don't those really belong to the people who used them in religious ceremonies? Is the Shroud of Turin in a non-Catholic museum? Maybe unfortunately for the kanaka maoli, they never worshipped in churches until the missionaries arrived, so there is no real sanctified official repository for their religious items as there is a Vatican for the Catholics. However, the Native Hawaiian groups have a legal right to reclaim bones and religious artifacts under federal law. They should be allowed to repatriate these items in the manner they deem honorable.

Miulang

[Kalani]

Museums are meant to be cultural respositories and their mission should be to hold in trust cultural icons and other items of archeological significance.
Be as that may, I think if anything is found by digging, it should be left where it is.

Besides, it's still early yet so we don't know for sure what may come out of this.

[Miulang]

Here's a followup to yesterday's story. It's not a good thing that there's infighting among the Native Hawaiian groups as is mentioned in this story. All that will happen is the whole thing will fall through the cracks.

The main reason why the Bishop board is considering not petitioning for native status is because of the clout Dan the Man has with the Commission that crafted the NAGPRA law. If Dan's grumpy, he can withhold federal funding (and intial reports were that he was grumpy at Bishop Museum for even considering applying for an exemption so they can keep the bones and religious artifacts).

More here: http://starbulletin.com/2004/10/04/news/index4.html

Miulang

[Kalani]

The main reason why the Bishop board is considering not petitioning for native status is because of the clout Dan the Man has with the Commission that crafted the NAGPRA law. If Dan's grumpy, he can withhold federal funding (and intial reports were that he was grumpy at Bishop Museum for even considering applying for an exemption so they can keep the bones and religious artifacts).

Yeah, even in yesterday's (?) article just when they talked about the senator, I was thinking the same thing, that b/c the museum got some funds too, that could hurt them. Which is what I don't understand, how the money part works. I guess b/c I assume that Bishop Estate is worth billions, that the museum wouldn't have a problem, but we're talking of 2 different entities.

[Miulang]

Yeah, even in yesterday's (?) article just when they talked about the senator, I was thinking the same thing, that b/c the museum got some funds too, that could hurt them. Which is what I don't understand, how the money part works. I guess b/c I assume that Bishop Estate is worth billions, that the museum wouldn't have a problem, but we're talking of 2 different entities.
It may have something to do with the tax status and the kind of federal monies that are available to help educational organizations. Dunno. But the newspapers made that clear implication that the Bishop Board would more than likely not petition for native status.

Miulang

[Kalani]

It's not a good thing that there's infighting among the Native Hawaiian groups as is mentioned in this story. All that will happen is the whole thing will fall through the cracks.

I certainly can understand the arguments among the various groups. Unfortunately we only know of ONE group, Hui Malama i Na Kupuna Iwi (HMINKI). That's all we ever hear about. We don't hear of the others.

And what exactly are the protocols? My assumption is that they'll put it back. But is it really different for these various groups, enough for them to say that HMINKI is doing something that is not part of the protocol?

Funny though that only now they're pressuring the museum to review all these items that they have on a case by case basis. I wondered about the other things, b/c I figured not EVERYTHING were part of the Pauahi, Ruth, Emma and Lili'u's collections.

This is why...we should slow down with the unnecessary development. Look at the Wal-Mart. Was that really necessary? People, mainly AMERICANS become too dependant on every little thing and their fingertips. Who said the ali'i died? Hell, everyone alive today (in our society) seems to think that they're one and acts like it too.

[Miulang]

This is why...we should slow down with the unnecessary development. Look at the Wal-Mart. Was that really necessary? People, mainly AMERICANS become too dependant on every little thing and their fingertips. Who said the ali'i died? Hell, everyone alive today (in our society) seems to think that they're one and acts like it too.
Amene! Well put, Kalani :)

Miulang

[Miulang]

I guess this is the other shoe...there will be revisions to the NAGPRA law that will make it harder for organizations to qualify as a "Native Hawaiian Organization". This work is scheduled to start after the end of the current Congressional session, with hearings in Washington DC and Hawaii later this year.

In the meantime, the Bishop Board is meeting this Thursday to go over the comments received from the community regarding its "interim guidance policy" which has generated some news in the last couple of days. The Board at that time may decide whether or not to petition for recognition as a Native Hawaiian Organization. However, if the requirements for obtaining that recognition change to make membership more restrictive, Bishop Museum may have no say in the matter of repatriation of religious artifacts and human bones.

More here: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Oct/05/ln/ln03p.html

Miulang

[Tutulady]

I certainly can understand the arguments among the various groups. Unfortunately we only know of ONE group, Hui Malama i Na Kupuna Iwi (HMINKI). That's all we ever hear about. We don't hear of the others.

And what exactly are the protocols? My assumption is that they'll put it back. But is it really different for these various groups, enough for them to say that HMINKI is doing something that is not part of the protocol?

Funny though that only now they're pressuring the museum to review all these items that they have on a case by case basis. I wondered about the other things, b/c I figured not EVERYTHING were part of the Pauahi, Ruth, Emma and Lili'u's collections.

This is why...we should slow down with the unnecessary development. Look at the Wal-Mart. Was that really necessary? People, mainly AMERICANS become too dependant on every little thing and their fingertips. Who said the ali'i died? Hell, everyone alive today (in our society) seems to think that they're one and acts like it too.May I ask what protocols you are referring to? Just curious so I can respond appropriately. Thanks :)

[Kalani]

May I ask what protocols you are referring to? Just curious so I can respond appropriately. Thanks :)
I was asking what exactly are the protocols if they are different? Not stating that the protocols are different. In the article it mentioned that.

My point w/ the protocols is this. What difference would it make? The fact is, bones were discovered and so one group versus others will reinturn the bones ELSEWHERE in many cases and supposedly follow these "protocols" when we know that specific protocols like that certainly did not exists. Not like our ancestors decided to build over iwi and created these "protocols" so that they can be buried elsewhere.

[Tutulady]

If you are talking about ceremonial protocols, I beg to differ. All islands, districts, families within those areas had different protocols and thanks to our chants, mo'olelo (oral histories such as the Kumulipo, Pele and Hi'iaka legends, etc.), and written histories that kupuna like Kuluwaimaka (recorded chant as an example), Mary Kawena Puku'i (language), John Papa I'i, Davida Malo, Samuel Manaiakalani Kamakau(noted "modern day" historians) et. al preserved for the rest of us. Further, each family had/have their own rituals and practices (protocols) each performed over a loved one. THAT has not stopped for some of us. Yes, there was no set protocols that govern every kanu as it would vary by island, district, known kapu, etc. However, for those of us that do practice our cultural observances and ceremonies, and especially when it involves some major focus such as burials, we as stewards and descendents of these kupuna (whether related by kin or not) should do everything in our power to safeguard their remains and final resting place. To be done without malice, disrespect and with all resources necessary to assuring the original intent, (we can only surmise for who are we to second guess the intentions and practices of those many generations that came before us?), and purposes for being buried there in the first place.

Anyway, there are practices that has been preserved, from sources that are readily available. One only needs to nana i ke kumu as a few of my tutu/kumu a'o would say.

[Kalani]

If you are talking about ceremonial protocols, I beg to differ. All islands, districts, families within those areas had different protocols and thanks to our chants, mo'olelo (oral histories such as the Kumulipo, Pele and Hi'iaka legends, etc.), and written histories that kupuna like Kuluwaimaka (recorded chant as an example), Mary Kawena Puku'i (language), John Papa I'i, Davida Malo, Samuel Manaiakalani Kamakau(noted "modern day" historians) et. al preserved for the rest of us. Further, each family had/have their own rituals and practices (protocols) each performed over a loved one. THAT has not stopped for some of us. Yes, there was no set protocols that govern every kanu as it would vary by island, district, known kapu, etc. However, for those of us that do practice our cultural observances and ceremonies, and especially when it involves some major focus such as burials, we as stewards and descendents of these kupuna (whether related by kin or not) should do everything in our power to safeguard their remains and final resting place. To be done without malice, disrespect and with all resources necessary to assuring the original intent, (we can only surmise for who are we to second guess the intentions and practices of those many generations that came before us?), and purposes for being buried there in the first place.

Anyway, there are practices that has been preserved, from sources that are readily available. One only needs to nana i ke kumu as a few of my tutu/kumu a'o would say.
E kalua,

Ua heluhelu hemahema i ka'u ho'olaha. Are you saying that our ancestors had various protocols to follow whenever they discovered bones being buried? Of course I know that different protocols were followed as far as burials go. That is obvious. What was practiced in my family with my great-great-grandmother being buried in a cave versus how they did with Lili'uokalani are very different.

But the fact is, people are getting bent out of shape b/c one group is saying that the other isn't following the correct protocols. So my question is what exactly was that? I only recall going to Mo'omomi a few times in my life but I never heard of a specific burial ritual regarding the uncovering of moepu or iwi, should one stumble across them.

[Miulang]

Mahalo nui loa, Kalani and Tutulady for this discussion. I think it's important for us to know about the traditions of the kanaka maoli. Too often we only think in western/Christian terms, which is so totally contrary to the way the ancients lived.

Miulang

[Kalani]

Mahalo nui loa, Kalani and Tutulady for this discussion. I think it's important for us to know about the traditions of the kanaka maoli. Too often we only think in western/Christian terms, which is so totally contrary to the way the ancients lived.

Miulang
Unfortunately these "traditions" won't all be revealed, at least not publicly. Which ends up leading to this type of dispute between the other hui and Hui Malama. Dispute over protocols, and how things were handled. But what people don't realize is that in old days, no one built over burial grounds. No one built over to a point where they dug and dug and dug. That's what people fail to realize. Instead everyone wants to pray to the almight DOLLAR, build, build, build, dig, dig, dig, and uncover, uncover, and continue to uncover. So rather than STOP b/c people strongly believe we cannot limit in developing and $$ comes first, we create laws trying to protect out ancestors, form organizations to handle such proceedings, in turn, we have internal argument based on what is suppose to be "traditional" when as I said before, our ancestors didn't develope over burial grounds.

On top of that, many of these places are sometimes forgotten for whatever reason, which leads to the selling and buying of these areas where our ancestors lay and in turn, we get another issue such as this.

*stepping off soap box*
:eek:

[Miulang]

Again, why does everybody think that Hawaiian "gravesites" are any less sacred than Christian graveyards? When Christian graveyards must be converted into some other uses, don't people handle the remains with respect? Do the ancient Hawaiians deserve less respect than others? I hope not. Are there not kapus on building on the graves of the ancients--the same kind of kapus that keep people who know about such things from veering off course? (Even the superstitions like not removing rocks from Pele's house help).

It is also true that there are some burial ceremonies that will never be revealed outside one's ohana. But I would hope that remains and ceremonial artifacts can be returned to their rightful ohana (if they are unearthed) so that they may honor their ancestors in the way they see fit.

The infighting that is occurring among the various Hawaiian groups is a little disconcerting to me; can there not be one united voice with representation from the many clans to speak for the kanaka maoli? Does everything have to be shrouded in politics? :(

Miulang

[Kalani]

The infighting that is occurring among the various Hawaiian groups is a little disconcerting to me; can there not be one united voice with representation from the many clans to speak for the kanaka maoli? Does everything have to be shrouded in politics? :(

For me, I cannot see this happening. What I mean is that having one voice. Like with any other entity, be it government, company, family, etc., you will always have different views. Certainly not a bad thing contrary to what others may try to make it out to be. But they certainly could talk their differences out. But it's obvious that they really haven't been. I guess part of it too is b/c one group tends to take control and is the well known one unlike the numerous others. Moreso b/c NAGPRA (I think it was that) mentioned Hui Malama and OHA and not any other organization.

I had explained to my friend a scenario about the graveyard where my family including my father is buried, less than a 10 minute walk to the beach. I said to him what would happen if 50 years from now there is a huge tidal wave that damages the graveyard and for some reason make all these old coffins, bones and everything else come up. Then they decide to make things easier, they just rebury everything there, or just cover it up with dirt. They decide to move or start a new cemetary and abandon that one.

Then 50 more years go by. So now we're talking the year 2104. And for some reason the old cemetary and/or its boundries are either confused or totally forgotten. So they sell the land. But nothing is done till probably 20 more years when the land is sold to someone else. Now we're talking the year 2124, and they decide to build (by this time) a shopping center. And guess what.....they find a bunch of bones! But not just bones, they find jewelry and other personal items that were probably buried with these individuals. So now what? What are they going to do?

Well, they decide to move them, of course. I would hate to think that not only are my relatives but my father's bones were moved elsewhere, PLUS what about all the items that my other relatives shoved into the coffin of my aunt? I remember as young as I was, I believe it was my aunt's pearl necklace placed into her coffin.

So I told my friend, what would be best to handle them? Is it right for people to put my aunt's necklace in a museum? Is it right for them to now move my father's bones elsewhere b/c where we had buried my father 125 years prior, really doesn't matter anymore b/c of time that passed?

But you are also right Miulang, an Ashinaabek (sp?) told me that we never see Christian or any other group of religious sect, as well as any other ethnic person (non-indigenous) have their bones being dug up.