Int'l Law Attorney says US Should Leave

[Konaguy]

http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/articles/2004/12/30/local_news/local04.txt

Attorney: U.S. must leave

Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:47 AM HST

International law expert says America has a duty to set Hawaii Islands free

By PETER SUR
Tribune-Herald staff writer
A professor of international law contends that the so-called Akaka Bill would strip Hawaiians of their right to self-determination.

He also says independence would be best achieved through international law.

Speaking Wednesday afternoon at the University of Hawaii at Hilo, Francis A. Boyle, who teaches at the University of Illinois, offered an ominous vision of the legislation that, as the bill states, would "provide a process for the recognition by the United States of the Native Hawaiian governing entity."Native Hawaiian governing entity."

[kimo55]

International law expert says America has a duty to set Hawaii Islands free

**************************

coo whul.

[lawyamike]

For what it's worth, Boyle is more of an agitator than a scholar of international law. He purported to swear out an indictment against the federal government for their treatment of indigenous Americans many years ago, but hasn't quite been able to send the folks in Washington to jail just yet. Put charitably, he is not universally recognized as a leading scholar.

[kimo55]

For what it's worth, Boyle is more of an agitator than a scholar of international law. Put charitably, he is not universally recognized as a leading scholar.


That is not worth much at all. As long as someone brings to light the travesty that is known as the akaka bill, he is ok in my book.
I don't care if he is recognized in the universe as a following scholar or a johnny come lately scholar. If he agitates the status quo and help bring to light the plight of Kanaka maoli, I certainly wouldn't be inclined to discredit him. And it may be viewed that those who would diss someone like him on this web site may appear disingenuous to say the least.
We need more people like him to publicise this kind of thing.

Talk about "charity"?
The definitive statement "he IS an agitator" was made, rather than "he is viewed as an agitator by some". Put charitably, your charity is too little, too late.

He is charitable to work in this direction. Those that attempt to diminish, hold back or dissuade any work toward the "autonomy" and recognition Hawaiians deserve, are the uncharitable ones.
I dunno; some may say those that ridicule Mr Boyle may be, in principle, against a lawyer working pro bono publico. In this case, it greatly helps Bumpy Kanahele and his efforts. I am incredulous that anyone would be against this. Especially someone who posts on HawaiiThreads.

Possibly, those that are inclined to label Mr. Boyle "an agitator", are also those that would prefer see indigenous peoples and cultures reduced to subservience, as is America's habit.

[Miulang]

kewl :D The more discussion the better, I say. For too long the kanaka maoli have been taken advantage of. Partly it's their fault because in their nature they don't like to rock the boat. They should remember their fierce warrior ancestors and push for what they believe is their birthright. Even if they end up "losing" in this case, at least more and more people will know of their plight. Maybe one day their childrens' childrens' children can be sovereign again.

Miulang

[kimo55]

kewl :D The more discussion the better, I say. For too long the kanaka maoli have been taken advantage of. Miulang

and here's more discussion on this.

Mr. Boyle, among other things, is working to expose the Akaka bill. Anyone wanting to see kama'aina receive justice, in my opinion, should be supportive of Mr Boyle.
(what's that old saw? "If yer not a part of the solution, yer a part o da problem")

Based on the information I have at this time, I am against the Akaka bill for these reasons:

The Akaka bill makes the Department of the Interior the lead agency responsible for all policies that affect Native Hawaiian resources, rights and lands..

The Department of the Interior has been deemed an "unfit trustee" by a US federal court and its lead officials cited for contempt of court by a federal judge. Over 40 million acres and about $137 billion are missing right now in Indian assets. I do not believe kama'aina wants that to happen to Hawaiian lands and money.

In the last 5 years, officials of the department have destroyed documents, disobeyed court orders, and lied to the court, repeatedly in cases that seek to account for Indian money and land for which the Department of the interior is responsible. For court papers and documentation see www.indiantrust.com

The Akaka bill requires the Hawaiian constitution to contain language that gives the officials of the governing entity the authority to permanently settle Hawaiian claims for reparations, reinstated independence, land, damages from the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii, and all other Hawaiian claims without the approval of Hawaiian voters.

What this means is; so-called leaders of a Native Hawaiian governing entity under the Akaka bill can decide basic issues that affect the kanaka maoli and their 'ohana directly, such as receiving money for damages relating to stolen land and the illegal overthrow. Additonally, kanaka maoli will not be allowed to say a single word about the decisions these new bureaucrats will make for them.

The Akaka bill installs a racial definition of "Hawaiian" where no such definition ever existed in Hawaii outside of U.S. law.

In other words, foreigners will "help" Hawaiians decide who is Hawaiian and who isn't. Would you want strangers to have that power?

The Akaka bill defines Hawaiians living today as the descendants of pre western contact aboriginal native people rather than descendants; subjects of the kingdom of Hawaii, severely damaging Hawaiian's rights to land title in the Hawaiian Islands. Federal law limits the rights of aboriginal people to the right to use and occupy land but not to own it or sell it as aboriginal people . A blanket claims settlement will end even these limited rights as it has for scores of tribes since 1970.

What this means is that Hawaiians will, in effect, be saying to the US federal government, "you were right to come in and overthrow our Queen.You may have all our land that you stole. We don't want it back. You know what's best for Hawaiians more than Hawaiians do. And we give up forever our right to sue the US government if it doesn't keep its word with Hawaiians."

The Akaka bill makes restored Hawaiian independence unlawful. Title 25 of the United States code prohibits Indian Tribes, and federally recognized Alaskans and Hawaiians by extension, from being recognized as independent Nations: 25 USC chapter 3 subchapter I Sec 71: "No Indian nation or tribe within the territory of the United States shall be acknowledged or recognized as an independent nation, tribe, or power. . ."

Stop and think - can you name even one Indian tribe than received US federal recognition and then went on to become independent ? You can not, because it never happened! The reason the US government wants to pass the Akaka bill is to try to stop Hawaiian rights in its tracks!

The Akaka bill creates a permanent political relationship in which Hawaiians are subordinate to the United States forever.
Under the Akaka bill, Hawaiians will have the legal status of wards of the US federal government. Did you know that prisoners currently incarcerated in US federal prisons are also wards of the US federal government? Hawaiians do not see themselves as criminals. Why would Hawaiians want to be lumped in the same legal classification with them? They will be under the Akaka bill!

Finally, the Akaka bill will ensure litigation in courts in the years ahead caused by a poor definition of the rights Hawaiians can expect under US federal law.

If you think lawsuits are coming fast and furious at Hawaiians now, just wait! Hawaiians will be forced to spend enormous amounts of money to defend their so-called "rights" in the Akaka bill if it passes. And guess where those suits will eventually end up? That's right, in the hands of an increasingly anti-Indian, and therefore anti-Hawaiian US Supreme Court.

The Akaka bill does not guarantee that Hawaiian federal entitlements will be protected

When was the last time Hawaiians trusted US bureaucrats to do the right thing for Hawaiians and the US actually did it?

The US federal government is trying to contain Hawaiians just like they did a century ago by saying then, "you'd better accept annexation because it's the best deal you're going to get." They were lying to Hawaiians then and they are lying now!

Did it turn out to be a good deal? Have Hawaiians gotten their nation and lands back?
Not on your life. The Akaka Bill is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Miulang]

If the kanaka maoli get their lands back on their terms through full sovereignty rather than the terms of the whiteman US government, one would hope they would be more compassionate to the non-native people than the missionaries and the 1980's US government were when they annexed the 'aina "for the people's welfare." I would hope they would still allow non-Hawai'ian landowners to keep their land, but I would also hope they could show all people who live in the 'aina the true meaning of "ua mau ke ia o ka 'aina ika pono."

Being non-Hawai'ian doesn't mean I don't agree with the rights of the kanaka maoli. If I need a passport to visit Hawai'i, then so be it. If I have to cede the rights to some land and lease it, big deal (much of the land is still lend-lease anyway).

Miulang

[kimo55]

I would also hope they could show all people who live in the 'aina the true meaning of "ua mau ke ia o ka 'aina ika pono."


Miulang


Hard to tell what the true meaning of the motto is. It has been used by so many, since the old days.
I remember when Lingle was campaigning. She put out a booklet explaining her positions and giving promises.

Lingle, following the foreigner's tradition of appropriating things Hawaiian and using it for one's own ends, uses these revered words of the "state motto" in her booklet, trivializes them, claiming they actually mean "... trust and integrity is lacking in Hawaii, so let's get rid of the corrupt politicians, and who better than me to take their place?"

The booklet claims the motto means to restore trust in American government, but of course it was a commemoration and celebration of the restoration of the Hawaiian Sovereign "Government."


Following the restoration of the Hawaiian Sovereign Kingdom after a short-lived British takeover of the Hawaiian islands, on July 31, 1843, at a ceremony held at the Kawaiahao Church, King Kamehameha III spoke the words, "Ua Mau Ke Ea O Ka Aina I Ka Pono"; The sovereignty of the land is preserved in Justice."



How ironic; The State Motto celebrated a moment of reinforcing and celebrating the independence and sovereignty of the Hawaiian Kingdom, now it's the "state" (of America) motto, and now, a politician wallowing in the very muck of the kind of government and system Kamehameha tried to protect the islands from, is appropriating his words for her own ends.

[lawyamike]

That is not worth much at all. As long as someone brings to light the travesty that is known as the akaka bill, he is ok in my book.
I don't care if he is recognized in the universe as a following scholar or a johnny come lately scholar. If he agitates the status quo and help bring to light the plight of Kanaka maoli, I certainly wouldn't be inclined to discredit him. And it may be viewed that those who would diss someone like him on this web site may appear disingenuous to say the least.

All right, bruddah, if you are suggesting that I am being disingenuous, then I'll be more direct: having cranks and fruitcakes loudly supporting your cause is not necessarily the best way to win hearts and minds, or win anything for that matter. There are disadvantages to having discredited, marginal characters say nice things about what you believe.

[...]

Talk about "charity"?
The definitive statement "he IS an agitator" was made, rather than "he is viewed as an agitator by some". Put charitably, your charity is too little, too late.

He is charitable to work in this direction. Those that attempt to diminish, hold back or dissuade any work toward the "autonomy" and recognition Hawaiians deserve, are the uncharitable ones.

Whatever, man. I will be less charitable and say that Boyle is a fruitcake who cannot be taken seriously. I was trying to be polite -- which is usually considered a good thing -- but if you're going to make a big deal about it, then I won't bother.

I dunno; some may say those that ridicule Mr Boyle may be, in principle, against a lawyer working pro bono publico. In this case, it greatly helps Bumpy Kanahele and his efforts. I am incredulous that anyone would be against this. Especially someone who posts on HawaiiThreads.

Again, dude, whatever. If you're incredulous that anyone would be skeptical of Boyle -- who is basically a media hound with tenure who pulls stunts like trying to bring a federal indictment against the United States government and has embarked on a bunch of other hare-brained schemes -- then you must be easily surprised. And it doesn't make sense that you would be even more surprised that people who are on HawaiiThreads would give a candid assessment (even like my polite one) about a crackpot like Boyle.

Possibly, those that are inclined to label Mr. Boyle "an agitator", are also those that would prefer see indigenous peoples and cultures reduced to subservience, as is America's habit.

So you're saying that if a person thinks that Boyle is not much of a scholar, then he is probably also against pro bono work and the rights of indigenous people? Nice display of aloha, Kimo55. Is there a Hawaiian word for ad hominem argument? I can think of a few words in pidgin for what you're doing.

[kimo55]

Nice display of aloha, Kimo55.



oh, thank you very much!



Is there a Hawaiian word for ad hominem argument?



I certainly HOPE not!



I can think of a few words in pidgin for what you're doing.


Yes, but can you SAY them.

[kimo55]

If you're incredulous that anyone would be skeptical of Boyle -- -- then you must be easily surprised.



I am surprised that you say that!

[Miulang]

You so kolohe, Kimo! What? You posting in stealth mode now, too? :p

Miulang

[kimo55]

You so kolohe, Kimo! What? You posting in stealth mode now, too? :p

Miulang


hey, look over there! an elephant!

[1stwahine]

:confused: SLOW DOWN PEOPLE! SHOW YA LOVE....hahahahahaha

By the way, I never heard of the guy! Now, I do...

[kimo55]

:confused: SLOW DOWN PEOPLE! SHOW YA LOVE....hahahahahaha

By the way, I never heard of the guy! Now, I do...


you see?


I steh showing my love... for da cause and publicity it is garnering....

[Miulang]

2 can play at dat stealth game, you know, Kimo :)

Too bad this whole sovereignty thing isn't even known about too much in Hawai'i, where so much is at stake for the kanaka maoli. I know when I go drive through the HHL subdivision in Waihee, lots of stone walls have Hawaiian flags and signs proclaiming sovereignty. Too bad most non-Hawaiians don't even think to cruise by those places (I have to go that way sometimes when I go to the recyle place in Waihee). I'm happy they are showing their pride in their heritage...finally. And I like the fact that the hula halau up here are not prejudiced against caucasians and other races and welcome them with open arms to their classes. Same thing for uke classes.

Kinda jarring, though, to see one blonde head amidst the brown and black haired dancers sometimes! But as long as they respect the traditions and the kumu and become part of that halau 'ohana, I think it's a beautiful thing. It will help perpetuate the culture and spread it to other non-Hawaiian people. After the cultural part is accepted, maybe the political part can be shared with them, too. You know, this assimilation thing takes a while. Just gotta be patient.

Malama pono,
Miulang

[kimo55]

lemme get dis straight. so Mr. Boyle is:

crank
fruitcake
crackpot
marginal character
cannot be taken seriously.
media hound with tenure who pulls stunts

ok. since I ain't a no good at mind readin' i goin ax yuh;

exactly what did this Mr Boyle do to YOU!?
....to warrant such vitriolic spewing?
(Jeez! Even I think I got sprayed on!)

These aforementioned epithets hurled at the gentleman may be applicable to most any rebel rouser, depending on one's stance and perspective.
But all his work and the effect he is having on bringing publicity and attention to a worthy cause is, for some, a move in the right direction. And one would realistically respond with: "so what if he's a crankstunthound-fruitpot-cakemargin in your eyes; I like what he's doing".
hell; "the truth is still the truth even if it were spoken by the devil"

And the subject being beat like the proverbial dead horse only begs the question of you: "give us some examples that could justify all these goofy appellations being hurled at him".

To which many will respond with: "who cares whatcha call him. we need voices no matter who it belongs to."

http://www.alohaquest.com/archive/boyle_bio.htm

http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/2004/12/30/local/local09.prt

and puh-leeeaasse do us a favor and don't bring up the "where's the aloha" query again.
One thing 'some' kama'aina are really getting tired of is whiney mainlanders with dashed hopes and expectations (based on the advertising efforts of some overpaid state agency,) complaining about the absence of some conceptualized, prefabricated nebulous overlymerchandised tourist-packaged commercialised thing, overly promoted to take on a life of its own as if it's some ectoplasmatic being that we should have map directions and streetsigns pointing the way to, that supposedly is in evidence in every third post here and on all street corners of Oahu.


(Big messy pile of aloha spirit: map page 16, B-3.)

[lawyamike]

and puh-leeeaasse do us a favor and don't bring up the "where's the aloha" query again.
One thing 'some' kama'aina are really getting tired of is whiney mainlanders with dashed hopes and expectations (based on the advertising efforts of some overpaid state agency,) complaining about the absence of some conceptualized, prefabricated nebulous overlymerchandised tourist-packaged commercialised thing, overly promoted to take on a life of its own as if it's some ectoplasmatic being that we should have map directions and streetsigns pointing the way to, that supposedly is in evidence in every third post here and on all street corners of Oahu.

It's understandable that you would get tired of that. Even here on the mainland, we sometimes get tired of people expecting us to be pleasant. We don't make pretend -- at least where I live right now -- that there is some friendly spirit infused within our culture that promotes respect and unity, though, so the expectations are lower, but we are also not so economically dependent on having people visit and spend money.

I was trying to help you, dude. You don't seem to know a lot about what sort of support is more likely to help your cause and what sort of support is more likely to increase skepticism about it, so I tried politely to clue you in. You got mad about that and tried to insult me, but I don't mind. I got too much of that ectoplasmic Aloha flowing through me right now to be upset. And at least now I know better than to ask you for directions to go see Don Ho perform; way too stressful for you to handle, apparently.

[Miulang]

Mike: the best way we. as Mainlanders, can help the kanaka maoli is to respect them in their fight for independence and leave them alone unless they ask for help, because, frankly, we are not Hawai'ian, and we certainly don't live in the 'aina (although I am Hawai'i born).

This is like the civil rights fight in the 60's when white people tried to sympathize and help organize black folk. Several (including the brother of someone I went to college with) were killed trying to register black voters in Mississippi. But some of the ways we tried to help blacks gain equality were as condescending and patronizing as the policies and discrimination we were trying to overturn. The kanaka maoli have a lot more to lose. They are fighting for the right to reclaim the land they used to live on and which, if anyone can own the land, should be theirs to own and manage.

You stated your opinions, as did Kimo. Kimo has closer ties to the struggle than either of us do. Sometimes he tries to stir things up, but at least it's in the spirit of trying to get people to think about something. This is something I also do, because to sit back and accept everything that's told to you without question is to not use the brain you were born with.

Miulang

[kimo55]

And at least now I know better than to ask you for directions to go see Don Ho perform; way too stressful for you to handle, apparently.
Not to give you directions to see Don Ho would be a doing you a favor, believe me.


nananana! jezz keeding uncle Don!

[kimo55]

I got too much of that ectoplasmic Aloha flowing through me right now to be upset. So that's where it all went to. We'll send the tourons over there, then.
I was trying to help you, dude. You don't seem to know a lot about what sort of support is more likely to help your cause and what sort of support is more likely to increase skepticism about it, so I tried politely to clue you in. You got mad about that and tried to insult me, but I don't mind. . "insult"? hahaha. haaa. ha... ha....zzzzzzzzz

uh.. ok...

basically, I took the circuitous route to convey: hey. we don't do that here. and when we see somone persist to diss someone li dat, and justify it, we say, "hey; lissen; that's not the way we do things here. (Jeez; dis guy must be a lawyer... on the mainland.) "

[Pualeilani]

"Based on the information I have at this time, I am against the Akaka bill for these reasons:"

Well said kimo i completely agree!!!!! i am currently doing a thesis paper on this subject would you mind if i used some of you comments?? i would of course give you the credit for your remarks