More sacrilegious commercialisation of Hawaiian culture...

[kimo55]

...stumbled across this web site wherein they basically created a whole product line based on the image of the Sacred religious revered Gods of Hawaii. (ki'i akua pictures taken at Pu'uhonua o Honaunau, the God images at the one of Hawaii's reverential sites.)

http://www.offduty-nolimits.com/catalog.php?cat=tshirts

and emailed them, this:

You are using sacred Hawaiian Gods for commercial purposes. This trivialization of revered religious icons of a Polynesian culture, one that, by the hands of foreigners, has suffered too much disrespect and cultural intellectual property rights appropriation for too long. This is never justified. You are continuing this pernicious trend and it is reprehensible.


What if... you had this instead, on your
"about us" :
http://www.offduty-nolimits.com/aboutus.php

page, the following?

The Golf Godz began as a resort lifestyle t-shirt company. We sell to stores from Tortola to the Vatican to Salt lake City Utah, (the tabernacle).
One afternoon during an Off*Duty board meeting at the beach while killing black cats, we discussed the idea of jesus and pope-heads on shirts. Saint-heads we think are hip and have the ability to portray a definite ATTITUDE! Originally we thought that we would concentrate on our pious bible belt markets for this concept. Jim, our artist, came up with some great drawings and as soon as I saw the religious figures (the jesus holding a golf bag, the virgin mary whackin an angel with a golf club, jesus crucified on a flagstick...) I said, "Stick a tee in his ear and 2 golf balls in that guy's pockets!" From there a line of 11 christian religious guys was developed to playfully "roast in hell" ourselves as golfers.
*
I hope that you find these "one liners" sacriligeously, disrespectfully humorous and can relate to the "Attitude of The Golf Godz". (If so, I pity you. But send us money anyway. If yer dimwitted enough to exhibit such thoughtlessness toward a culture other than your own, you should be parted from your money.)
*
Thank you for taking time to view our website. Come join us at the beach when you feel ethnocentric—but for now let us send you, or perhaps more importantly your Sandbagger friends or even still, enemies, a shirt, cap, nun's habit or towel. It may just become a favorite!
*
Tee it Up, genuflect and keep it in the short grass and the long pews!
*
Moony Jones
TGIF



**************

anyone who feels this, to any degree, is not pono, email them and tellem;
no shame, no shame!

[Miulang]

Go get 'em, Kimo! ;)

Miulang

[1stwahine]

anyone who feels this, to any degree, is not pono, email them and tellem;
no shame, no shame!

Hmmmmm, I will! Thanks for letting us know!

Sent this:

Shame on you and your company! Your so called "TIKI" is respected by Hawaiians. You lucky you not in Hawai'i nei...THE GODS would take you in your sleep, throw you into the volcano to Pele where she would burn your okoles, excuse me, whole bodies! POOF BE GONE!

Lynn Vasquez
momthreesoldeirs@msn.com

[kimo55]

Go get 'em, Kimo! ;)

Miulang


jez try fo hold me back!


try wait; you goin see much more of this re-appropriation of Hawaiian cultural icons...
stay tuned.

[pzarquon]

You know, I've been reading recently about controversies surrounding the copyright of objects or landmarks in the public space. Two prominent examples making the rounds right now are the Eiffel Tower at night (http://blog.fastcompany.com/archives/2005/02/02/eiffel_tower_repossessed.html) and Millenium Park in Chicago (http://newurbanist.blogspot.com/2005/01/copyrighting-of-public-space.html).

In those two examples, the copyright seems ridiculous, but I'm wondering if an option exists to stop stuff like the use of Pu'uhonua o Honaunau by speaking a language businesses understand: infringement and lawsuits. If the caretakers of the site, or the DHHL, or some other big, scary agency asserted copyright ownership over the commercial use of images of the statues or other Hawaiian icons, they could then have a good tool to stop people from putting them on T-shirts or using them as corporate logos or something.

[kimo55]

I'm wondering if an option exists to stop stuff like the use of Pu'uhonua o Honaunau by speaking a language businesses understand: infringement and lawsuits.


Possibly the creator of the artwork, the carver, can assert his ownership of the actual particular image, also.

Just one of the mmmmaaaannnnyyy examples I have been collecting:
Halrley davidson shop alamoana, has shirts with a photo of a large Ku kalai. This is a photo taken at da PCC. I know of the original carver. his style is very distinctive.
It is just not right to infringe on both counts:
artist's work and
trivialisation of sacred religious icons, numerous precedents notwithstanding.

[Glen Miyashiro]

I dunno. If people started getting riled up about all the sacrilegious things in the world, then I wouldn't be able to buy a Jesus Nodder (http://www.mcphee.com/bigindex/current/10972.html) for my car's dashboard.

[1stwahine]

I dunno. If people started getting riled up about all the sacrilegious things in the world, then I wouldn't be able to buy a Jesus Nodder (http://www.mcphee.com/bigindex/current/10972.html) for my car's dashboard.

Glenn, you are kidding about having a Jesus Nodder?

[kimo55]

I dunno. If people started getting riled up about all the sacrilegious things in the world, then I wouldn't be able to buy a Jesus Nodder (http://www.mcphee.com/bigindex/current/10972.html) for my car's dashboard.


yes. we alllllll know of this exact citation as a frequent rebuttal to the 'stop using "tikis" stance'.
Ever since archie came out with these "christian products".
This is yer typical example we see that shows contemporary society believes "nothing is sacred. Everything is fair game."

[Glen Miyashiro]

If you mean, do I have one now? No. But it's very tempting. :D

[Glen Miyashiro]

This is yer typical example we see that shows contemporary society believes "nothing is sacred. Everything is fair game."
It is. Isn't it?

[1stwahine]

If you mean, do I have one now? No. But it's very tempting. :D

THANK YOU GLENN...MAY GOD BLESS YOU 10 FOLD TODAY! YOU TO BRO KIMO! You go gettum' I'll back you up anytime for the AINA and GOD!

[kimo55]

"Everything is fair game."

It is. Isn't it?

i just KNOW yer jokin'.
But I must assert; it is time to ho'oponopono and always maka'ala.

[Miulang]

...

anyone who feels this, to any degree, is not pono, email them and tellem;
no shame, no shame!
So Bruddah Kimo, I wen go email dose buggahs and told 'em da tiki has no correlation wit da game of golf. I told 'em hemo da tiki and go put one golf cart or one martini glass or one bottle of beer ova dere. Those things more relevant to golf than ke Akua!

Miulang

[1stwahine]

i just KNOW yer jokin'.
But I must assert; it is time to ho'oponopono and always maka'ala.

I'm NOT! There are certain things I hold very dear and GOD and the AINA is at the top! have a great day BRO KIMO! I'm going to Hawaii Stories...will check in and out.

[Glen Miyashiro]

i just KNOW yer jokin'.
But I must assert; it is time to ho'oponopono and always maka'ala.Actually I'm not joking at all. If you read my older comments you'll see how I feel about religion in general. However, out of courtesy to you and tita Lynn, since you feel so strongly about it, I will stop now.

[kimo55]

Actually I'm not joking at all. If you read my older comments you'll see how I feel about religion in general. However, out of courtesy to you and tita Lynn, since you feel so strongly about it, I will stop now.

maybe I am a lil confused:
You are saying you are not joking; that nothing is sacred? You feel anything is fair game?


....also, there is religion, and then, there is religion;
Contemporary american religion is a far cry from ancient/contemporary Polynesian cultural philosophy/relgion.

It is nigh impossible to synopsize the difference in one small paragraph, but...

Christianity in general is crystallized, dogmatic, overly structured, separate from daily life.
Polynesian 'religion" is intrinsically intertwined with each and every aspect of daily life and related to respect and connection to every living thing, the appreciation for the aina and nature in general as being the source of life, and being manifestations of the gods.

[Miulang]

maybe I am a lil confused:
You are saying you are not joking; that nothing is sacred? You feel anything is fair game?
Nah. He means he not going be sarcastic about religion anymore.

Miulang

[Glen Miyashiro]

maybe I am a lil confused:
You are saying you are not joking; that nothing is sacred? You feel anything is fair game?Yup, that's what I am saying. Now mind you, this doesn't mean that I think this kind of cultural appropriation is in good taste; it's not. But I don't think anything is sacred and not to be challenged. If somebody wants to make tiki kitsch, or Jesus kitsch, or Buddha kitsch, then they're free to do so. Just as you're free to dislike it and refuse to buy.

[kimo55]

Yup, that's what I am saying. Now mind you, this doesn't mean that I think this kind of cultural appropriation is in good taste; it's not. But I don't think anything is sacred and not to be challenged. If somebody wants to make tiki kitsch, or Jesus kitsch, or Buddha kitsch, then they're free to do so. Just as you're free to dislike it and refuse to buy.


ok, granted. This being america, we are 'free' to do most anything, and mostly we do, especially if it stretches the bounds of good taste. After all, we want to challenge and be "edgy". Don't we.

Personally I don't see the point in challenging "religious" aspects of Polynesian cultures that have existed for hundreds of years only to be usurped, denegrated and nearly destroyed by foreigners, and then, to have insult added to injury by mockery, challenge, and thoughtless, blatant commercialisation.

I believe many things should remain sacred. Respected. Untouched by the profane.
A societal structure that allows for this complete breakdown, is one with a corrupt moral fabric and decayed spiritual constitution and is bound to witness its own disintegration and fall.
Besides, I myself, just feel better inside, respecting some things. Of course, others will never have that experience, and more's the pity.




******
wow. 170 hits on one thread in one hour. controversy sells.

[1stwahine]

Dear Glen, I sent you an email at Private Messages. Please read.

Thank you,
Auntie Lynn

[Miulang]

Even if you put aside the religious/sacriligeous part of the icons depicted on that website, the question remains: what the hell does a tiki have to do with golfing anyway? Does this imply that by praying to god your game might improve (I dunno. When I played golf, I know I used to curse a lot :rolleyes: ).

Maybe I'm a purist. If I see an icon as part of a design, I'd like it to represent the product/company if it looks "realistic". All bets are off if it's not a recognizable symbol, but I still don't get the correlation between that particular company, which is located in Florida, and the tiki, which is from Hawai'i.

Copyright/trademark infringement is another matter.

Miulang

[pzarquon]

Dear Glen, I sent you an email at Private Messages. Please read.Eh, Aunty! Doesn't this defeat the purpose of a Private Message? :p

Anyway, I have no idea why they linked golf to a polynesian carving, either. Then again, when it comes to team sports and icons, just about anything goes. Unless it involves racial characterizations. Or remarkably unpleasant mammals. Or something. I lost my Politicallly Correct stylebook a while ago.

I'm confused a bit on the discussion relating bobble-head Jesus figures to this golf shirt, though. Is it, "Sure, you can treat a symbol someone feels is sacred with disrespect, but that doesn't mean you should"? Or is it, "These carvings are important, but Jesus/Christianity is more important"? Or is it, "Unlike Polynesian beliefs, Christianity can be mocked because as the 'Mainstream' faith it's not like it's in any danger or anything"?

I think it's a fair question to ask if we can dismiss things that ridicule one belief system if we're going to take an insult against another so seriously...

But more realistically, Kimo, you mentioned knowing the carver. So, right there you have a strategy toward limiting the commercial appropriation of cultural images. If someone was making money selling something with my artwork on it, you bet your sweet bippy you'd hear from me (or my lawyer).

And for better or worse, sometimes the mere mention of gettin' lawyered up is enough to send ignorant capitalists a'packing...

[Glen Miyashiro]

I'm confused a bit on the discussion relating bobble-head Jesus figures to this golf shirt, though. Is it, "Sure, you can treat a symbol someone feels is sacred with disrespect, but that doesn't mean you should"? Or is it, "These carvings are important, but Jesus/Christianity is more important"? Or is it, "Unlike Polynesian beliefs, Christianity can be mocked because as the 'Mainstream' faith it's not like it's in any danger or anything"?I meant the first: you can, but it's in poor taste to do so.

[Miulang]

This discussion kinda reminds me of the name changes that are going on with high school and college mascots. Remember when an "Indian" or a "Warrior" was a good thing? Now in our politically correct world, as soon as someone takes offense at having a mascot that might depict ethnicity, schools are changing their mascots. I think that's why the UH changed its name from the "Rainbow Warriors" to the "Rainbows".

My favorite, most-PC college mascot is the UC-Santa Barbara Banana Slugs. Now I'm waiting for PETA or some other group to say that's a perjorative and their mascot needs to be changed. "Go 'Slugs, Go!" :D

Or how about the Mo'ilili School Surfboards? :eek:

Miulang

[pzarquon]

I think that's why the UH changed its name from the "Rainbow Warriors" to the "Rainbows".
Did they? I mentioned the mascot thing above, but in UH's case, I thought they did the exact opposite. In fact, Joe Moore and June Jones had a big lover's quarrel over this issue. They dropped 'Rainbows' (since it's affiliated with gay culture) to go with just 'Warriors.'

Which isn't to say that there aren't issues with the 'Warrior' thing. Just look at the whole flap over Vili the Warrior.

[kimo55]

Eh, Aunty! Doesn't this defeat the purpose of a Private Message? :p

you don't know aunty very well, do you?!



Anyway, I have no idea why they linked golf to a polynesian carving, either.


Not that it elucidates anything or satisfies the question, but they do give a little b/g or justification on their page. You no see yum?

[1stwahine]

you don't know aunty very well, do you?!
Eh! Wat you mean by dat BRO KIMO? Nah, all in the fun...I can take it! SMILE EVERYONE!

[kimo55]

In fact, Joe Moore and June Jones had a big lover's quarrel over this issue. They dropped 'Rainbows' (since it's affiliated with gay culture) to go with just 'Warriors.'


But latest news (late-breaking as they call it), tells us Joe and June have been seen picking out curtains together.

[kimo55]

"nothing is sacred. Everything is fair game."


It is. Isn't it?

Haoles, foreigners, tourists, whatever ya wanna callem, many of them are seen trodding upon heiau, removing or moving pohaku, leaving things on the heiau, crossing the kapu line and entering the sacred enclosure at heiau all over Oahu as well as the FtDerussy Memorial for fallen maoli warriors.
I was once doing a shoot at Puuhonua o Honaunau and these german tourists actually removed the fence enclosure of the Hale o Keawe temple and entered so they could get a picture of themselves next to the ki'i.
I roundly berated them and told them to expect well... don't remember exactly what I said, but implied it is extremely bad luck to commit such a disrespectful damaging trespass and possibly ill fortune will befall these cretins.


call it what ya want:
I say it is thoughtless, stems from a lack of education,a lack of breeding. A lack of thinking, learning, a simpleminded lemming reaction, jumping on the bandwagon of the idiot masses. These louts, inured to the sensitivity required while visiting other cultures, live in a society that unfortunately, continually believes nothing is sacred. anything is game for ridicule, exploitation, for commercialization. So; they say to themselves; Since I see goofy looking tikis in party supply centers and plastic tikis available in the dollar stores nationwide, and I see the sacred godhead of Polynesia on sportswear swinging gold clubs, and others reinforce that it's ok to challenge, well this means I have no need to keep my distance, I can walk all over heiau, litter on sacred ground, make childish rude comments when I am exposed to the ancient carved gods of Polynesia when visiting the Bishop Museum...

Nope. I say; some things are sacred and should be treated as such. And supposedly, mature thinking adults should show respect.
I can't see how some feel comfortable belittling the things held in highest regard by a society and culture far removed from their own, that has been beaten down for so long by foreigners. When will they acheive satisfaction in their perniciously rapacious wanton ways?!
How can they sleep with themselves?

[Glen Miyashiro]

Even though I agree with most of what you said, Kimo, I woudn't use the word "sacred" there. "Worthy of respect", definitely, but "sacred", no. Perhaps it's just a matter of definitions, but knowing how you treat words, I won't go there. :D

[pzarquon]

Kimo, since you may very well know more about tiki carvings and designs than anyone here... I noticed that Jamba Juice (the sister of Starbucks) has a line of silkscreened tees that feature a stylized tiki as its icon/logo. I'd love to know if there's misappropriated history there... :p

[kimo55]

Even though I agree with most of what you said, Kimo, I woudn't use the word "sacred" there. "Worthy of respect", definitely, but "sacred", no.
just as the highest deities (Jesus, Mary, the concept of their God... and the images of jesus on the cross...) in chrtistianity are sacred to many americans... (THEY call them sacred, so I can respect that. )
just so;
Ku, Kane, Kanaloa, Lono, Hina, Pele... and others, all are sacred to many Hawaiians, ancient and modern.
you see: "sacred" is defined as worthy of religious veneration... entitled to reverence and respect.
Kimo, since you may very well know more about tiki carvings and designs than anyone here... I noticed that Jamba Juice (the sister of Starbucks) has a line of silkscreened tees that feature a stylized tiki as its icon/logo. I'd love to know if there's misappropriated history there... :p
I have seen it when I was jonesin' fer an overpriced smoothie. and surprisingly, I haveta admit, it was not too expensive and hit da spot. But i will protest to them of the point;
Saw the tikis on the cups. Typical stuff they create for the tourons;
fake 60's hawaiian style flower icons, their concession to a tapa design, and a "tiki". this standard image they use has too many of the attributes of Ku to be used as decor. many don't like to see this.
There are "grumblings" in the 'underground' soon to call for a major push for ho'oponopono.
Nope. I say; some things are sacred and should be treated as such. And supposedly, mature thinking adults should show respect.
Not only do many NOT exhibit a little respect, they display belligerence, antagonism and they argue for their right to be an ay-hole. And in front of their impressionable children.
When they are told; "kapu; stay on the other side of the chain. stay away from the ki'i. This area is kapu!"
They don't back up, Instead, they argue:
"Hey. We're just looking."
What kinda example do they offer others? what kind of a jerk are they teaching their kids to grow up to be?!
What diminished, corrupt form of a 'man' are they telling the world they have grown into?
What is the lesson?
"My offspring can grow up to do whatever they damn well please and show disrespect toward other cultures and fight with the representatives of the foreign cultures and 'religious icons' ".

vive la ugly americain
I'd love to know if there's misappropriated history there... :p
oh wait. does the inclusion of this laughing happy face mean yer jes joking? or really wanna know?
Inquiring minds or kolohe?

[Miulang]

Kimo, since you may very well know more about tiki carvings and designs than anyone here... I noticed that Jamba Juice (the sister of Starbucks) has a line of silkscreened tees that feature a stylized tiki as its icon/logo. I'd love to know if there's misappropriated history there... :p
JambaJuice is not affiliated in any way with SBUX. They are a private company that offers franchises (http://www.jambajuice.com/what/franchiseinformation.html) in this country. People might think they are related because they are both kinda upscale, but they are separate corporations.

In SBUX news today, though, they announced a partnership with Jim Beam to produce a chocolate liquer. I think they're straying a bit too far from their humble roots again. Who remembers "Joe" magazine, the monthly periodical about the "coffee experience" that SBUX was trying to get people to subscribe to???

Miulang

[pzarquon]

JambaJuice is not affiliated in any way with SBUX. They are a private company that offers franchises (http://www.jambajuice.com/what/franchiseinformation.html) in this country. People might think they are related because they are both kinda upscale, but they are separate corporations.
Technically true, but "not affiliated in any way" is a stretch. Hawaii is one of many markets where the same franchisee (http://www.hawaiibusiness.cc/hb62004/default.cfm?articleid=6) owns both Starbucks and Jamba Juice licenses. So, not only do the two stores usually share the same retail space, but the same office handles HR (http://www.starbuckshawaii.com/en/company_press6.htm), PR, and other administrative functions for both Starbucks and Jamba Juice. Apparently, they also piggyback each other (http://www.svcn.com/archives/saratoganews/07.21.99/jamba-9929.html) in getting permits and managing other bureaucracy when it comes to opening new locations.

So, they may be separate, but they're very friendly with each other!
oh wait. does the inclusion of this laughing happy face mean yer jes joking? or really wanna know? Inquiring minds or kolohe?
I want to know. I can't tell the difference between some graphic designers stylized impression of what he thinks a tiki should look like and a real tiki carving. I was just curious which one the Starbucks tiki was.

[kimo55]

I want to know. I can't tell the difference between some graphic designers stylized impression of what he thinks a tiki should look like and a real tiki carving. I was just curious which one the Starbucks tiki was.
Coolness. Ok.
the jamba juice tiki, (and of course, if it's a copy of a Hawaiian diety, it is not a tiki)
is a graphic version of a war god. Thus:
What affiliation are they implying to the ancient art and culture of Hawaiian war? Why would they put a war god on a t shirt or cup?
Why not jesus?! or the anthropomorphic representation of the christian almighty god?
some dude with long white hair, beard, flowing robes, sittin on a throne handing out harps to miniangels fluttering by...

JambaJuice is not affiliated in any way with SBUX.
It's easy to see why we here in Hawaii think they may be affiliated; each and every starblecchs has a jamba jooz right next door. Or at most, two doors down...

Even if you put aside the religious/sacriligeous part of the icons depicted on that website, the question remains: what the hell does a tiki have to do with golfing anyway?
You can thank the mainland fad known as "tiki culture" or "polynesian pop" for the above.

among many other things, it has degegrated "tiki" to a trivial, fun, attitude projecting graphic well suited for to be emblazoned on most any product that can and will be consumed by american consumers.
just another example of polynesian culture being repacked by mainlanders for mainlanders.
too bad. so sad.

[kimo55]

typos corrected...



You can thank the mainland fad known as "tiki culture" a.k.a., "polynesian pop" for the above.





among many other things, it has denegrated "tiki" to a trivial, fun, attitude projecting graphic well suited for to be emblazoned on most any product that can and will be consumed by american consumers.
just another example of polynesian culture being repackaged by mainlanders for mainlanders.
too bad. so sad.

[kimo55]

Look out; here comes more disney-ification of Hawaii:
Disney is planning on offering tours of Hawaii's wilderness.
Possibly with costumed characters.
called:
escape to paradise.
Now, question remains:
How can WE escape the continual, further commercialisation and desecration in our paradise?!

[Glen Miyashiro]

Look out; here comes more disney-ification of Hawaii:
Disney is planning on offering tours of Hawaii's wilderness.
Possibly with costumed characters.
called:
escape to paradise.
Now, question remains:
How can WE escape the continual, further commercialisation and desecration in our paradise?!
Do you have a newspaper citation? More details please.

[kimo55]

Do you have a newspaper citation? More details please.


there's no pleasing some people...

[pzarquon]

Do you have a newspaper citation? More details please.
Hawaii first up on Disney eco-tours (http://starbulletin.com/2005/02/20/news/briefs.html)
Disney will be testing an expansion of its vacation business later this year, offering weeklong guided tours through the wilds of Hawaii and Wyoming. Disney will run 15 tours this summer at a "test" cost of between $5,600 and $7,800 for a family of four, air fare not included. If the 30-person tours prove popular, they may become a fixture and could be expanded to other destinations, the company said. Details are still being worked out for the tours, titled "Escape to Paradise" and "Quest for the West." But promotional materials promise surfing lessons and volcano tours on Oahu, the Big Island and Kauai, and horseback rides through Wyoming's cowboy country of Jackson Hole, Grand Teton and Yellowstone.
Brace yourself: Disney is coming! (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Feb/21/bz/bz12p.html)
Ted Eubanks, a Texas-based outdoor and eco-tourism consultant, said Disney could find it tough to break into the market. "It's not that Disney can't do it. My word! They seem to be able to do whatever they set their mind to," Eubanks said. "I just wonder how well their brand will translate to these tours. Disney is in the business of virtual reality, fabricated reality. My clients are trying to escape that."
Both papers caught and used the same wire story, actually. Pity there wasn't more original reporting. You'd think Disney would have some local contact before announcing the endeavor.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Well, damn. For years, I've been ranting about tourists who expect that the great outdoors (e.g. the Blowhole, Sacred Falls, the volcano) should be safe and well-padded against their own stupidity, saying "it's Nature, not Disneyland". Now it'll be both. :rolleyes:

[Miulang]

How will you differentiate the Disney tourists from the regular tourists? Will they all have to wear mouse ears? Gloves with only 4 fingers (no thumbs)? Wear big flappy shoes? Be perkier than most tourists???? :p

In the eyes of the HCVB, more money is just more money. "It's a small world after all."

Miulang

P.S. you know all those places in the "Hawai'i Revealed" books that the locals are so huhu about because tourists have "discovered" what used to just be known to locals? Well, if Disney is planning to do ecotours, THOSE are the kinds of places that will see the increased demands placed on the land.

[kimo55]

How will you differentiate the Disney tourists from the regular tourists? Will they all have to wear mouse ears? Gloves with only 4 fingers (no thumbs)?

sneak preview of the official uniform:
Here is what the tour guides will be wearing to enable us to avoid & evade the invaders...
http://www.hwcdsb.edu.on.ca/stmary/mickey.jpeg

(and whachu mean no thumbs?! Mickey always had thumbs!)
http://www.totowa.k12.nj.us/Mickey%20Mouse.JPG

[Miulang]

(and whachu mean no thumbs?! Mickey always had thumbs!)
http://www.totowa.k12.nj.us/Mickey%20Mouse.JPG
If you spock da pickcha, he maybe get thumbs, but if he get thumbs, den he missing one odda finga on each hand. Which finga you tink dat one is missing, ha? ;)

Miulang

[kimo55]

If you spock da pickcha, he maybe get thumbs.
my point. he gettum..

but if he get thumbs, den he missing one odda finga on each hand.


uh. yea. dassrite!

Which finga you tink dat one is missing, ha? ;)




da meedow one. aftah all, wuz uncah walt wen create steamboat willie.

[kimo55]

Saw another product fit for this thread, in a store the other day.
a hula girl duster.
here's the problem I have with things like this:
You use it by grabbing the long plastic hula girl body, (she is a white skinned girl... clothed with a bathing suit top and no legs to get in the way of dusting. Her skirt, of course, as acts as the duster. It is a full head of synthetic strings.)
Grab a hula girl and clean your house with it?!
Jeez
I think it is obvious, the problem one would have with this.
The hula, as with the other things mentioned here on this thread, is a revered aspect of our island culture, replete with sacred venerated chants, genealogy and creation stories of the Hawaiian people. It is not a coochiecoochie doll or a plastic toy designed for removing dirt off yer modern appliances.
The contemporary overabundance of false hula girl representations posed in fake stances by mainland artists notwithstanding, this is not appropriate. Just as relegating the image of the gods to bottle openers, drink holders and even bar stools that one may place their butts upon...
Next!

[Miulang]

Yeah, I saw those dusters in Hilo Hattie a couple of weeks ago. Hilo Hattie is definitely perpetuating the notion of Hawaii kitsch. I didn't buy that, but I did buy a "slippah" fly swatter from there.

Miulang

[kimo55]

Hilo Hattie is definitely perpetuating the notion of Hawaii kitsch.


yea. Hilohattie is really going whole hog on alll the tackytiki junkalunk stuffs.
They buy each and every cheap plastic tiki party favor decor thing they can find. They have it all in one big corner of their Nimitz shop. Looks like a thrift store junk pile. a joke. Unfortunate.
Really would like people to "get" that representations of King Kamehameha's personal god of war, was (and is) used for a purpose and should not be replicated as a plastic decor figure.
So they buy the 5 dollar trinket. take it home. put it on their mantle. Wot!? does that mean the person is, back home, preparing for ancient Polynesian war? Or that they are affiliated with King Kamehameha? It's like using/appropriating/abusing ancient high level heraldry and saying it is yours. It's like alotta other scenarios and similies I can't think up before coffee.

[kimo55]

ok, gang.
compiled and ready to go. did i miss anything?


www.tikitv.com



if so, i will reload and take better aim.
(akshully, as with any web site worth its salt, this is, as some say: "under construction" as in: being added to alla time.)

[Miulang]

Eh Kimo, I wen go holoholo ova to tikitv. You done good! Keep up da good work. Maybe, just maybe, people will finally "get" it. If da moon is full...if da tide is high...if da wind is blowing from da West... ;)

Miulang

[kimo55]

Eh Kimo, I wen go holoholo ova to tikitv. You done good! Keep up da good work. Maybe, just maybe, people will finally "get" it. If da moon is full...if da tide is high...if da wind is blowing from da West... ;)

Miulang
mahalosmahalosmahalos, miu!


eh. pm me or post here, if ya got sumpin pithy ya wanna add and don't mind being quoted. (initials only, and city, no names...)
Just so's people know i at least have a fan club of one.

[Miulang]

Eh Kimo:
I was doing some research on how to plan a luau for someone who wrote to my alterego on www.ohanalanai.com who was planning to put on a Mother's Day luau and had no clue what to serve.

Anyway, one of the links I found took me to Amazon, and there are several books on the tiki culture that I wasn't sure if you were aware of:

Tiki Road Trip : A Guide to Tiki Culture in North America
by Sven A. Kirsten (Foreword), James Teitelbaum

Tiki Quest
by Duke Carter
"Tiki Quest: Collecting the Exotic Past is the latest book offering for Tiki fanatics. Many discover the mysterious wonders of the world of Tiki through some small cast-off relic. Maybe it’s a Tiki mug with the name of a now-closed restaurant, perhaps a souvenir statue from Hawaii. But whatever the inspiration, Tiki has captivated the imagination once again.

There are those who amass only enough to outfit their home bar, there are others who are obsessed with Tiki in every form. Duke Carter is obsessed. His book catalogues the collection of vintage Tiki he has put together through years of scouring thrift stores, flea markets, and junk shops. The largest section categorizes Tiki mugs, the ceramic containers with fanciful renderings of Tiki gods that once were filled with Mai Tais and Navy Grog. Other areas of collecting are also presented: from souvenir statues made of resin and lava, postcards, matchbooks and swizzle sticks from Tiki restaurants of old, to an amazing variety of gee-gawks made into the likeness of Tikis. There are banks and bottles, lighters and lamps, even ashtrays full of aloha.

Far from a quickly outdated price guide, Tiki Quest is a vivid account and loving tribute to the joy of collecting, rendered in a colorful coffee-table book format.

Beautifully designed and lavishly illustrated with over 1000 photos filling nearly 200 pages, Tiki Quest is a must-have for Tiki enthusiasts whether they have been a collector for a long time or if they have just had their first Scorpion...." sick, sick, sick

Tiki Drinks
by Adam Rocke, Shag (Illustrator)
"...From the Publisher
TIKI DRINK BOOK WORSHIPS THE SPIRITS The recent wave of Tiki madness is in full swing as Polynesia meets pop culture, and Surrey Books has joined the party with TIKI DRINKS ($12.95, hardbound), a compilation of seventy classic and novel concoctions guaranteed to turn any party into a luau.
Tiki, a Polynesian term for carved wood amulets, figures and posts, first took hold after World War II when servicemen returned from the South Pacific, bringing home images of scantily clad natives and pounding drums that emblazoned the conformist 1950s culture.

While Tiki collectibles were once relegated to garage sales and flea markets, today’s trend has gone mainstream…and mass market. Macy’s East opened a decorated "Patio Luau" department complete with patterned plastic plates. On the other end of the island, Kmart, Savon Drugs and Home Depot sell tiki torches and figures for the yard. Ralph Lauren even sports a line of T-shirts with a wooden tiki idol ingrained with "Polo." For the ultimate in "Petiki," Bamboo Ben, who designs custom tiki bars, builds Polynesian-style dog huts and litter-box covers, complete with thatched canopy.

Of course, the craze has spread online with zines and sites featuring collectibles while eBay buyers haggle over mugs, recently paying $1,000 for one from Elvis Presley's movie Blue Hawaii. But a tiki mug means nothing unless it’s filled with a tropical drink topped off with a paper umbrella.

Author Adam Rocke stirs up seventy concoctions in Tiki Drinks, the definitive guide to mixing and shaking your way to paradise. Don’t know the difference between a pony and a jigger? The book offers simple tips on setting up a tiki bar including measurements, garnishes and liquors, and features recipes for old favorites like the Singapore Sling as well as some new additions like the Caicos Cooler.

Rocke, who also writes for Maxim and GQ, spent a year on Florida’s gulf coast, traveling to the islands and taking a "poll of the populars." Researching the local drinks was as much fun as writing about them, he recalls. "TIKI DRINKS is designed to bring the ocean to you if you can’t get to paradise."

Tiki artist and consummate hipster, Shag, provides the illustrations for Tiki Drinks. His clean, tight graphic style, reminiscent of '50s and '60s commercial art, has also been a hit with Time Magazine, Entertainment Weekly and Forbes. Shag recently expanded into gallery work, and his latest piece, the Madonna of Kahiki, is nothing less than, well, "shagadelic."

Why tiki, and why now? The culture is as much lifestyle as it is art, and its revival may be an antidote to the frantic pace of a wired generation seeking comfort from a primitive haven at home. Perhaps the trend reflects a desire for a simpler time, tinged with a nostalgia that author Dennis Coupland, who coined the term Generation X, first described as a longing for experiences we never had, a hunger to be part of a previous generation.

Or a thirst…Tiki is really about tiki bars serving up flaming cocktails, and Gen X doesn’t have a lock on the fad: a president or two has been known to partake in "Politiki." Richard Nixon, for example, used to escape to Trader Vic’s for some daytime tropical ambiance along with his favorite drink: the Navy Grog. (151 proof rum definitely packs a presidential punch.)

Many bamboo-thatched bars and tiki-toriums are vanishing, but TIKI DRINKS provides all that’s needed for spirit lovers of all generations to set up shop at home. So kick back, hang a light and sip a drink…it’s tiki time...."

Tiki Art Now!: A Volcanic Eruption of Art
by Otto Von Stroheim, Robert Williams

"Tiki Style is a recognized part of American Folk Art with a longstanding history and mass appeal. Here are some of today's most exciting American Tiki artists and international artists working in the Tiki Style, including: Shag, Marco Almera, Bosko, Sunny Buick, Dave Burke, Kalynn Campbell, Dirty Donny, Crazy Al Evans, Richie Fahey, Rod Filbrandt, Mary Fleener, Bruce Gossett, Christine Karas, Joe Leonard, Sharon Leong, Mr. Lucky, Munktiki, Mitch O'Connell, Lisa Petrucci, The Pizz, Isabel Samaras, Von Franco, and more. .."

[kimo55]

"ashtrays full of aloha."
we see how they feel about our culture...

"Far from a quickly outdated price guide, Tiki Quest"
(Not that is matters, but so much is suspect: it is not even that. There are no prices at all. No original pirces nor are there average current values offered here.)

"Tiki madness is in full swing as Polynesia meets pop culture"
how does Polynesia feel about this? anyone care?

"guaranteed to turn any party into a luau"
then you dunno what a "luau" is.

"Tiki collectibles; today’s trend has gone mainstream…and mass market."
who can celebrate this?

"...who designs/builds Polynesian-style dog huts and litter-box covers"
uuhhh. oookay.

"is designed to bring the ocean to you if you can’t get to paradise."
(so. any ocean is equated with paradise?!)

"Tiki is really about tiki bars serving up flaming cocktails"
(so. "Tiki, a Polynesian term for carved wood amulets, figures and posts"
becomes "Tiki; american pop culture term for alchoholic drinks.)

and there are several books on the tiki culture that I wasn't sure if you were aware of:


yes, mahalos; very aware of the mainland tiki cult-ure.
"cartoon tiki" as it were.

was deeply mired in this for a while until it became so commercialised and disrespectful.
I miss the Polynesian decor style of the 40's to 60's. Now it's all mass merchandise and plastic. and NO interest in its origin. and NO respect. It's gone apes#1t.
And the sacred gods are now mass produced products. And we have Waikiki bars selling tropical drinks, (now known as "tikidrinks") with names such as: "Lono's Rum Punch".
abhorrent.

This extreme commercialization of it to the point where "tiki" is now just a decor style adjoined with tattoo, punk, lounge, hotrod, etc... nope. doesn't sit at all well for many kama'aina.

[Peshkwe]

...."Why tiki, and why now?".....


Heh....'cause the 'skins are gettin too prickly about the wannabes, rock-rubbing-bliss-bunnies and twinkies fronting.

Those with no culture are still out there and they want to glom on to anything 'storybook nifty'.

[Peshkwe]

yes, mahalos; very aware of the mainland tiki cult-ure.
"cartoon tiki" as it were.

was deeply mired in this for a while until it became so commercialised and disrespectful.
I miss the Polynesian decor style of the 40's to 60's. Now it's all mass merchandise and plastic. and NO interest in its origin. and NO respect. It's gone apes#1t.
And the sacred gods are now mass produced products. And we have Waikiki bars selling tropical drinks, (now known as "tikidrinks") with names such as: "Lono's Rum Punch".
abhorrent.

This extreme commercialization of it to the point where "tiki" is now just a decor style adjoined with tattoo, punk, lounge, hotrod, etc... nope. doesn't sit at all well for many kama'aina.


*snicker*

Kinda like folks driving around with dreamcatchers on their car rearview mirrors.....oh yeah I feel real safe while you be sleeping at the wheel.

[kimo55]

Eh Kimo:
I was doing some research on how to plan a luau for someone who wrote to my alterego on www.ohanalanai.com who was planning...



dadgummit! If that site were anywhere near well planned visually and user friendly, even 10% close to what we are used to here...
I would check it out. It's SOOO... uuuuhhh.
NO search. NO subjects. NO thread headings.
ugggh!


and those damned graphics look SO un-Hawaiian. designed by Liberace on pakalolo and prosac.

[Miulang]

dadgummit! If that site were anywhere near well planned visually and user friendly, even 10% close to what we are used to here...
I would check it out. It's SOOO... uuuuhhh.
NO search. NO subjects. NO thread headings.
ugggh!


and those damned graphics look SO un-Hawaiian. designed by Liberace on pakalolo and prosac.
If you're talking about www.alohaworld.com, yeah, there's no search engine on that. I believe the owners are planning to redo the look of the main site; "my" forum (Ono Recipes) does have search capability (they upgraded my forum first because it's the most popular :) --I mean, when da expats get hungry foa local grinds, they cannot just hop in da car and drive to Hotel St., you know!) But www.ohanalanai.com (a subset of it) probably uses the same program that HT does and does have a search capability. And it has more smileys than HT (if you're into that sort of thing).

Miulang

[kimo55]

when da expats get hungry foa local grinds, they cannot just hop in da car and drive to Hotel St., you know



no one can. Hotel St now, busses only.
besides, no one drives to chinatown. No parking. all parking lots paved over.
funny kine hea;
old building, tear it down, put up a parking lot.
Old parking lot? get rid of it. NOT the "highest and best use of the land". Erect new residential/office tower.

[kimo55]

If you're talking about www.alohaworld.com,


nope, wuzznt.

and now that I have seen it, I now need lasik.
Jeez us, popesaveus!
That was a horrendous jolt. Someone trying to make our eyes crosseyed or wot?!
looks like someone got sick after an explosion in a joint confetti-quilt factory!

[Palolo Joe]

besides, no one drives to chinatown. No parking. all parking lots paved over.Now really, what the hell are you talking about? Lots of people drive to Chinatown, and there are parking lots - even municipal ones where it isn't very expensive to park and wander around for a couple of hours. Never mind tons of street parking after the aloha shirt army goes home at 5 p.m.

[kimo55]

Now really, what the hell are you talking about? Lots of people drive to Chinatown, and there are parking lots - even municipal ones where it isn't very expensive to park and wander around for a couple of hours. Never mind tons of street parking after the aloha shirt army goes home at 5 p.m.


really, I am talking about;
after 5 is not when I want to shop chinatown, with all the import shops and collector's shops closed.
In the 70's and 80's there was much more parking than there is now.
Too often i have has to do the downtown circle thing; cruising around for too long looking for a parking spot. Not worth it anymore.

[Palolo Joe]

There you go, whining about the "good old days" again. Instead of circling for street parking during the day, take some time and find out where the municipal lots are. Even some of the high-falutin' buildings will let you park there if you patronize a business. Visit Spada for a lunch, you get free validation. Go to Palomino, you get free validation. There are more places like that, if you just take the time to look.

[kimo55]

There you go, whining about the "good old days" again.


whaaaaah!...budddeyeliiiiike whining about the old days!

Go to Palomino, you get free validation. There are more places like that, if you just take the time to look.


yep, palomino was a pal o mine a while ago. But I hate that tight circular parking structure. Too dangerous. Now i have a secret spot.

[1stwahine]

Aaaaahhhh, Chinatown. Eh, Bro Kimo, get plenty of parking in Chinatown and the surrounding areas both in the day and night time. Low rates too. Just got to look. As for the people of the area, no pilikia dey moa scared of their own shadow. It's only after dark when you have to be afraid. ;)

[kimo55]

As for the people of the area, no pilikia dey moa scared of their own shadow. It's only after dark when you have to be afraid. ;)


dark or light. I know the place since the late 60's.
and it was rough back in the day.
(aaah the good old days.. whhhhhiiinnnne!)

[Miulang]

Bob Kraus (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/current/ln/bob) wrote a column last week about the very first attempts at reviving Hawaiian culture back in the 1930s. Much of what went on until the late 1960s really truly did more harm to the kanaka maoli than it helped to spread understanding of the true nature of the people and traditions of Hawai'i.

Since the Renaissance of the Hawaiian culture began in the late 1960s, an appreciation and respect of the language and culture of the kanaka maoli has slowly spread globally; unfortunately, there are still pockets of naivete and hypocrisy that exist up here on the Mainland about what the 'aina is all about (and it ain't necessarily about grass huts and hula skirts, either).

Ex-pats are doing what they can to spread the aloha, but to their dismay, when they hear about what is happening in the 'aina with the rampant growth of population, obscene real estate prices, etc., it makes us all sad for Hawai'i...at least the Hawai'i that we grew up in and fondly remember.

Miulang

[newroots]

do you guys believe in the zoo theory? and i feel for the kanaka maoli. when the hawaiian revoloution starts , all the chamorros are gonna get on a plane and help you guys win the war. trust me , were all just waiting.

[Surfingfarmboy]

do you guys believe in the zoo theory? and i feel for the kanaka maoli. when the hawaiian revoloution starts , all the chamorros are gonna get on a plane and help you guys win the war. trust me , were all just waiting.

newroots, the Chamorro and Hawaiians have nothing in common. You are not nearly as oppressed as you think. What makes you even think the native Hawaiians want the Chamorros kokua? Bumpy Kanahele and his followers will be able to seek what they quest without the help of others, Chamorro included. They've stated they don't need anyone's help; they are perfectly able to fight their own battle for independence.

I've asked you this before in an indirect way, now I'm asking you directly: What's your beef against the "haole" government in place in Guam. The goverment which saved Guam from oppression from an invading force in the 1940's, and whose ouster from power is still celebrated every year with Guam Liberation Day. The government which has provided Guam with one of the highest standard of livings in that region of the world. Don't think so? Look at all of those who have sought to improve their lives by illegally immigrating to Guam from other sovereign countries indepedent of a "haole" government.

What's your problem with this government who has outright offered the people of Guam a choice: Independence or statehood? When are you going to make a choice and finally oust this haole government of oppression? You do have that right. Make a choice or shut up.

At some point, Guamanians will have to decide on one or the other; the UN is not going to let Guam fester in a political limbo like Puerto Rico has..you will either be independent or you will become part of the union...something I do not forsee the the kanaka maoli ever being offered by the US goverment.

I really think you need to think about your own nation first and acquire your own independence before you start raising pilikia in a place where there's a good chance the kanaka maoli don't want you to.

[newroots]

we hate the haole government cuz you guys hate .. guam is like hawaii's little brother.. just kidding ... i thank the united states for liberating us. but they didnt really "liberate" guam .. they just took us away from japanese , it was really in their best interest to do so. if they didnt fight japan , they would've lost the war. Guahan has been oppressed by foriegn people ever since magellan... the spanish killed and raped people here. theres no more pure chamorros left ..... no more chamorro blood either , just ancestors .. the american government provides us well.. but the language and everything is dying. its made us become lazy. they take the nicest land for their military bases. theres alot of complaints. Guam hasnt suffered as much as havai'i nae , i know. but were just following in our big brothers foot steps... just kidding. :)

[Surfingfarmboy]

Hafa adai, Newroots:

To quote you: "the american government provides us well.. but the language and everything is dying."

You clearly have a better view of the goings on in Guam better than I do. All I really know about what is going on in Guam is what I hear from the web-casts of KGUM (K57) which I listen to on occasion...since Rlene Steffy left her show, I haven't had much reason to listen to it much any more..she really was a voice for the Chamorro in Hagatna, and through her, I was able to learn of the problems the Chamorro face in Guam. She even taught me some basic Chamorro!

From your prospective, it may appear that the Chamorro are a doomed people. I'm not going to challange that...even the UN concedes that the Chamorro are endangered.

But I do think the Chamorro have a much greater chance of survival under the current government in place in Guam than the kanaka maoli have in Hawaii with the goverment they feel is illegitimate.

I say this because Guam does have semi-autonomy..every shot called in Guam is not dictated by Washington; Guam does have power, under conditions, that can usurp the Federal goverment. Guam is recognized as a country of its own by many. It even has its own Olympic teams.

And like I've mentioned, Guam has a legitimate chance of being its own sovereign nation once again, if Guam choses to go independent. I don't see anything ever happening for the kanaka maoli in Hawai'i, at least anything offered through the US government. I've heard all of the possible solutions for the preservation of the kanaka maoli..let Moloka'i be the independent nation of Hawai'i, let the kanaka maoli be a nation within a nation..the fact is what was once their country at one time is never going to be their's again. Guam can be the Chamorro's again. To cite my limited Chamorro: "Hamyu lamon." (It's up to you)

And this is why I refute your philosophy that the Chamorro and kanaka maoli are kindred brothers in arms. The Chamorro do have a decent chance of survival if they take the initiative and seek independence, which is one of their prerogatives. The kanaka maoli, in my opinion, just don't have the options available that the Chamorro have.

Newroots, (I which I knew your name)..I do thank you for giving me and this forum a decent, well-thought out reply. I was under the impression that you might be the sort who posts replies like "Haole, get out of Guam" with nothing given to explain why they should. I was obviously wrong.

I do think your concern for the kanaka maoli is admirable. As member of the human race, don't stop being concerned with them..but at the same time, do not forget your own people..make sure the "old roots" are kept alive as well.

[newroots]

ey howzit surfingfarmboy. thanks for clearing this stuff out. your point of view is strong. guam does have a better chance , but the politions here are dumb as dirt. it shows how lazy we are that we dont even choose between independence or statehood. i didnt even know we had a choice. your people are strong and ideal. i'm sure you can get control of your land back. people here admire the charisma you guys have. to suffer so much , and still be as proud and strong as you guys are. it sounds corny but , its an example for all the nesian places.

[kimo55]

Kimo, since you may very well know more about tiki carvings and designs than anyone here... I noticed that Jamba Juice (the sister of Starbucks) has a line of silkscreened tees that feature a stylized tiki as its icon/logo. I'd love to know if there's misappropriated history there... :p



just saw some Jamba Juice t shirts at their new hawaii kai location. Their logo is an awkward reverse-pigeontoed cartoon "tiki". I'd rather this mainland corporation use a jesus icon...

http://www.damnedgames.com/ProductImages/jesusshavest.jpg

http://www.andertoons.com/images/blog/Gerhard-Haderer.jpg
http://fckaisersaal.covers.de/cartoon/jesus.jpg

...to sell their merchandise, instead of coming here, appropriating a very revered Hawaiian God image and sullifying it.
Why can't america leave other cultures alone. Why must it commercialize and denigrate everything it sees... the bullies.

[kimo55]

wellll, that's funny:
the web site that provoked the start of this thread....


"...stumbled across this web site wherein they basically created a whole product line based on the image of the Sacred religious revered Gods of Hawaii. (ki'i akua pictures taken at Pu'uhonua o Honaunau, the God images at the one of Hawaii's reverential sites.)

http://www.offduty-nolimits.com/catalog.php?cat=tshirts


is down, shut off, closed up, maki die dead, deleted, kaputski, or otherwise not available at the time. wundah wussup...

[kimo55]

ok, sooo...
here we go again.
at da risk of hearing;
"hey; lighten up"...
we're gonna go round and round with this new place just opened up on Kuhio called da big kahuna. apparently another bar.
and according to da weekly's pic, has big foam or plastic copies... images of King Kamehameha's personal sacred war god; Ku'ka'ili'moku.

[Miulang]

ok, sooo...
here we go again.
at da risk of hearing;
"hey; lighten up"...
we're gonna go round and round with this new place just opened up on Kuhio called da big kahuna. apparently another bar.
and according to da weekly's pic, has big foam or plastic copies... images of King Kamehameha's personal sacred war god; Ku'ka'ili'moku.
Eh Kimo, you know if the slang word "kukae" is derived from Ku'ka'ili'moku? If it is, I think that Big Kahuna bar going be in for lots of kukae from da war god! :eek:

Miulang

[Glen Miyashiro]

King Kamehameha's personal sacred war god; Ku'ka'ili'moku.Is that spelled right? You've got 'okina immediately before the letters "K" and "M", which are consonants. How do you pronounce that? :confused:

[kimo55]

How do you pronounce that?

koo kah eelee mow koo

[kimo55]

Eh Kimo, you know if the slang word **** is derived from Ku'ka'ili'moku?


eh. mind yer manners.

[Palolo Joe]

And you're one to speak on the topic of good manners...

[Glen Miyashiro]

I know that's how to pronounce it. But is it spelled right? The placement of the 'okina looks weird to me.

[kimo55]

And you're one to speak on the topic of good manners...

oh, thank you very much for noticing.

[kimo55]

I know that's how to pronounce it. But is it spelled right? The placement of the 'okina looks weird to me.



well, ya asked me "How do you pronounce that"


Haven't the foggiest idea if that is the spelling everyone of the modern age would use.
and since that is how it is pronounced, and since glottal stops perform the action of separation, many may spell it in that manner.

[kimo55]

we're gonna go round and round with this new place just opened up on Kuhio called da big kahuna. apparently another bar.


ok, so we hit da big kahuna bar on Kuhio yesterday. a casual open big size place comfy, styrofoam lava design black painted walls here and there, a few "petroglyphs" on da walls, lotta woven bamboo wall surfacing too. a few surfboards, a grass shack thing..
ok so far, but there are a few elements many take exception to:
hanging from the ceiling, acting as lamps: two back to back styrofoam Ku ki'i images. On the wall, a Ku face. On a large pillar, a full body styrofoam Ku image.
a lil background:
Solemn ceremony and ritual involving oli, prayer, sacrifice, purification rituals, were employed for the creation of an akua ki'i kalai.
Once the ki'i was taken to the heiau and erected, it was the focal point of spiritual proceedings and was much venerated and still is, as a sacred image. Many kanaka maoli are very much against the current display of akua as cheap decor.. to now see the highest icon of the Hawaiian religion that guided much of their daily life, used as plastic incidental pub embellishments is depressing..
The kahuna was and is a practitioner of the healing arts, a facilitator of the ceremony and proceedings of the heiau, both sacred and profane. This was and is a very revered respected personage for hundreds of years in Hawaii. To have this word, copped by the california surf culture a few decades ago, enter into the american pop culture lexicon and become denigrated to such a degree, and have the tradition despoiled, especially in Waikiki as we see... is particularly offensive to many.
Sure, it can be argued; "lighten up" or; "hey nothing's sacred" or "you sure misuse other icons so all is fair"
doesn't detract from the fact; respect should be afforded to those aspects of the host culture and the wishes of native islanders. Surely, there are some out there who must proclaim when they see this type of thing; "nooo, that's just not right!"
http://tinyurl.com/bpsv3
at least a little openness to learning and a small degree of cultural sensitivity is in order.


(oh and on the wall an easter island styrofoam "tiki" face that for all the world looks like deputy dawg or that mumbling hound dog in those 60's cartoons. Ester island carved images were ancestral deities that, again were deified. Now they are nothing more than a cartoon image viewed thru the bottom of a beer glass by inebriated denizens of alcohol watering holes.)

[Miulang]

Surely, there are some out there who must proclaim when they see this type of thing; "nooo, that's just not right!"
http://tinyurl.com/bpsv3
at least a little openness to learning and a small degree of cultural sensitivity is in order.
That's pretty sad to have "religious" icons relegated to being made out of styrofoam. I guess another way of thinking about it is, for those who consider yourselves Christians, what would you think if someone opened up a bar, called it "Heaven's Gates" and placed plastic Jesuses and crosses above a fake plywood altar where a bartender dressed in white flowing robes dispensed "holy water" (martinis and the like)?

About the only redeeming thing about having styrofoam depictions of a Hawaiian war god is that they didn't steal the real thing from a heiau or museum. :mad: But that still doesn't make it right. "When in Hawai'i, do what the kanaka maoli do..."

Miulang

P.S. that link to that "Big Kahuna" halloween costume is truly nauseating. No wonder people from other countries dislike us so much. Grrr...

[Glen Miyashiro]

I guess another way of thinking about it is, for those who consider yourselves Christians, what would you think if someone opened up a bar, called it "Heaven's Gates" and placed plastic Jesuses and crosses above a fake plywood altar where a bartender dressed in white flowing robes dispensed "holy water" (martinis and the like)?That would be cool. I'd go there.

Come to think of it, doesn't Bucca di Beppo have some room with a cheesy Pope bust and other Roman Catholic paraphernalia?

[Miulang]

That would be cool. I'd go there.

Come to think of it, doesn't Bucca di Beppo have some room with a cheesy Pope bust and other Roman Catholic paraphernalia?
Yeah, and Archie McPhee's (http://www.mcphee.com/) (that world famous store that sells all kinds of weird cheap toys by mail order and which is located here in Seattle) has boxing nuns and boxing rabbis, too, just so they don't spare any religion. Haven't seen a boxing Buddha yet, though. :eek: And we have a wonderful, tall cross dresser whose altered ego is named something like "Sister Miserata". S/he is a prominent personage at every Gay Pride Day parade here. Heh. She makes a "habit" of marching and flaunting her holiness! ;)

Miulang

P.S. Kimo: Archie McPhee's also has some of those tiki kitsch things you hate so much.

[kimo55]

> And we have a wonderful, tall cross dresser whose altered ego is named something like "Sister Miserata". S/he is a prominent personage at every Gay Pride Day parade here. Heh. She makes a "habit" of marching and flaunting her holiness! ;)

fun nee!

>. Kimo: Archie McPhee's also has some of those tiki kitsch things you hate so much.


yea.. seen them. been following A.McP. for a couple decades. they, unfortunately, jumped on this unfortunate tiki culture bandwagon and they are now, milking it bone dry.
it gets cheaper and kitchier by the year...
dreadful.

[newroots]

no disrespect to the gods.. but i think they regard them as a myth. sorta like the greek and roman gods. so dey probably use them in their stores in an attempt to show how much they like the culture. but its more disrespectful in da cheap way they display it for their business. but their disrespectful haole , what would you expect.

[kimo55]

what would you think if someone opened up a bar, called it "Heaven's Gates" and placed plastic Jesuses and crosses above a fake plywood altar where a bartender dressed in white flowing robes dispensed "holy water" (martinis and the like)?


maybe they have that setup at the Jesus theme park!

http://www.holylandexperience.com/home.html

[Miulang]

maybe they have that setup at the Jesus theme park!

http://www.holylandexperience.com/home.html
RFLMAO! That beats Fields of the Wood (http://www.westernncattractions.com/attractn/fieldsof.htm) in North Carolina by a longshot! (All Fields of the Wood has is the 10 Commandments on the side of a hill, the Stations of the Cross on the other side of the valley, and Hebron (where Christ was supposed to be buried...fake boulder resting next to the doorway too). That place was built by the UCC in the 40s. They don't charge admission and they don't have any fun rides...maybe that's their problem! :rolleyes:

Only in America, and only in Orlando...eesh. I guess there really isn't anything sacred in this society, is there?

Miulang

[Miulang]

Eh Kimo, you going LOVE this story! Now there's a Native Hawaiian Hospitality Association (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050807/BUSINESS02/508070336/1071) in Hawai'i that's going to work hard with the local businesses to correct some of the horrible and atrocious things related to Hawaiian culture that have occurred in the recent past that offend your and my sensibilities. It appears that this group has support from the HTA, because I think the visitor's bureau realizes that more harm than good is being done by businesses that don't respect the kanaka maoli culture...including, I might add, the use of tiki in advertising! :) 'sabout time, yeah?

Miulang

[kimo55]

I'm all over it like a cheap suit:

http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=6090

[Fondoo2]

ok so I'm a casual christian and think my god laughs everytime man tries to make him seem well,like man.I'm only christian because thats the way I was brought up so my prayers have more emotional power praying to christians idea of god,but in the end all the worlds spiritual paths lead to the same place (just my .02)
I think there are two reasons why the Hawaiin Gods get singled out more #1 there is way more cool factor whith Tiki full of anciant mystery and beauty to an outsider #2 there is way to much creepy christian big money groups in our government so less business's are gonna be inclined to poke fun at Jesus.
I can see your point in feeling like these business's are belittleing your culture and support it being stopped

Simple Thoughts
I know there are some teachers in this forum,I wonder if my spelling has caused any physical pain or an urge to return my posts to do over correctly :)

[junebloom]

I just have a quesiton. I read some of the posts about the subject at hand and i guess i'm just a little confused. I take it that the Hawaiian beliefs are being disrespected but why is the Christian faith being persecuted for it. And back to a comment that was made. Christianity for some of us is a way of life. And it consists in our daily life at least that's the way it's suppose to be. And it seems that every religion is dogmatic in someway. There are a whole lot of belief systems in this world. But no culture should be disrespected or counted as less than for what they believe in. I personally serve one GOD and I believe that, that GOD Loves us all. But I was just wondering because it seems here that Christianity is being taken as the worst religion and I would like to know what's so wrong about being a Christian. And if I'm misunderstanding this please tell me. Administrators I know you are watching what we post. I am not saying this out of offense or anger. I am just curious that's all.

[sinjin]

I just have a quesiton. I read some of the posts about the subject at hand and i guess i'm just a little confused. I take it that the Hawaiian beliefs are being disrespected but why is the Christian faith being persecuted for it. And back to a comment that was made. Christianity for some of us is a way of life. And it consists in our daily life at least that's the way it's suppose to be. And it seems that every religion is dogmatic in someway. There are a whole lot of belief systems in this world. But no culture should be disrespected or counted as less than for what they believe in. I personally serve one GOD and I believe that, that GOD Loves us all. But I was just wondering because it seems here that Christianity is being taken as the worst religion and I would like to know what's so wrong about being a Christian. And if I'm misunderstanding this please tell me. Administrators I know you are watching what we post. I am not saying this out of offense or anger. I am just curious that's all.

The historical pretext for suppressing Hawaiian religious rituals was the presumed correctness of Christianity by the missionaries. You knew that right? As far as Christian persecution here, I think you've got a bit of a complex.

[Fondoo2]

sorry June if I seemed overly hard on christians and I should be more sensitive to the kind and gental christians that may read my posts again I am sorry.
My problem with any religion is when it's used as an excuse for power and control over others and twisted to suit mans needs and since I live in the US I'm exposed to many aspects of religion in our schools and politics that I don't believe come from god but from corrupt men.
Thank you for the gental way you expressed your feelings it made me stop and think.

[kimo55]

it seems here that Christianity is being taken as the worst religion and I would like to know what's so wrong about being a Christian. And if I'm misunderstanding this please tell me. Administrators I know you are watching what we post. I am not saying this out of offense or anger. I am just curious that's all.


how offended and angry you sound!
(Nah, jezz keeding...)

ok, can you show where Christianity is being dissed to such a degree? I think i missed it.

[Glen Miyashiro]

June, it's because Christianity is the dominant religion of this land, so it's got the dominant share of the kooks and idiots. I'm sure that if I lived in a country where the dominant religion was, say, Islam, I'd be poking fun at the Muslim kooks and idiots instead.

[sinjin]

June, it's because Christianity is the dominant religion of this land, so it's got the dominant share of the kooks and idiots. I'm sure that if I lived in a country where the dominant religion was, say, Islam, I'd be poking fun at the Muslim kooks and idiots instead.

Not for long.

[Glen Miyashiro]

You'd be surprised at how tolerant some Muslim countries are. The crazies on the news aren't the only Muslims, just like Jerry Falwell and Rick Santorum aren't the only Christians.

[sinjin]

You'd be surprised at how tolerant some Muslim countries are. The crazies on the news aren't the only Muslims, just like Jerry Falwell and Rick Santorum aren't the only Christians.

Within every Muslim dominated country there are presently those who would kill their own government officials for not being strict enough. I don't know of any Christian fanatics looking to kill someone for simply lampooning Christianity. Performing abortions maybe, but not simple disrespect. I see this as a problem for Islam, not a problem with Islam.

[Fondoo2]

June, it's because Christianity is the dominant religion of this land, so it's got the dominant share of the kooks and idiots. I'm sure that if I lived in a country where the dominant religion was, say, Islam, I'd be poking fun at the Muslim kooks and idiots instead.

what she said x 2 ;)

[Fondoo2]

The historical pretext for suppressing Hawaiian religious rituals was the presumed correctness of Christianity by the missionaries. You knew that right? As far as Christian persecution here, I think you've got a bit of a complex.

I hadn't known that,I should have guessed being business as usual thru out the ages for war and plunder to um save the natives souls cough cough

[sinjin]

I hadn't known that,I should have guessed being business as usual thru out the ages for war and plunder to um save the natives souls cough cough

It would be unfair to attribute the plundering to the missionaries in Hawaii IMO. That was left to their descendants.

[Fondoo2]

sorry I intend to learn Hawiian history I better close my yap till then

[kimo55]

It would be unfair to attribute the plundering to the missionaries in Hawaii IMO. That was left to their descendants.

there is credence in the old joke;
"the missionaries came here to do good and they ended up doing well".

http://tinyurl.com/al7hj

[junebloom]

Hi Kimo,
It was just something about Christianity in a earlier posting of yours " is crystalized, dogmatic, overly structured, separate from daily life." Everybody does have a right to their own opinion. But that's really is not what Christianity is suppose to be about. And Sinjin I am somewhat familiar about Hawaiian history. I don't know what the Christians intent were back then but I do believe that what happen to Hawaii was not about Christianity but more about wanting something that belonged to someone else and taking it away from them. What happen to Hawaii was just straight wrong. Just as wrong as it was with the Indians and the Africans. All in the name of Christianity.
!Yea right! The key word in Christianity is CHRIST. Christ does not work in manipulation. Christ didn't come to take, He came to give. I'm a Christian because I believe that Jesus is the Son of GOD and He died for my sins and rose again. And I made the life choice to follow Him. And as far as structure, we do have rules and regulations to follow which is the Bible but that's for our good not GOD'S. I don't know if this gives me a complex or not but I do come in peace. :) :) :)
Oh by the way Kimo glad you finally decided to be unmasked. You trully were a big mystery. dig the photo man :)

[kimo55]

Hi Kimo,
It was just something about Christianity in a earlier posting of yours " is crystalized, dogmatic, overly structured, separate from daily life." Everybody does have a right to their own opinion. But that's really is not what Christianity is suppose to be about.
ah, yes. I remember. No, 'religion' should not be about this, though often it becomes that.

[kimo55]

...and on a related note, stumbled upon this blog...
(no, just a stubbed toe...but thanx fer asking...)

http://tinyurl.com/76y7l



wherein the wahine recounts a carlin bit on the "Indians" and their conquerors....

[1stwahine]

...and on a related note, stumbled upon this blog...
(no, just a stubbed toe...but thanx fer asking...)

http://tinyurl.com/76y7l



wherein the wahine recounts a carlin bit on the "Indians" and their conquerors....

Hey, that Tita Lika's blog! Good funny wahine who lives in Arizona. The blog underneath Carlin's one...more interesting! Happy, Healthy and Hard!

Auntie Lynn

[sinjin]

...And as far as structure, we do have rules and regulations to follow which is the Bible but that's for our good not GOD'S.

Then of course you understand that the religious practices of indigenous people have often been deemed incompatible with "the rules" and were therefore actively discouraged, to put it mildly. Do you not yourself believe that those who are not brought to Jesus are lost?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[junebloom]

Then of course you understand that the religious practices of indigenous people have often been deemed incompatible with "the rules" and were therefore actively discouraged, to put it mildly. Do you not yourself believe that those who are not brought to Jesus are lost?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
sinjin I really don't understand the point your making and how it really relates to what I was saying before but the point i was trying to make was that people sometimes in times past and even in today's time may say that they are doing something in the name of Christianity and in their heart they may feel they are doing what is right no matter how wrong it really is. Sometimes people take something and they add their own beliefs and systems and usually they are wrong because they choose not to follow what has already been instituted in place. Usually out of greed or selfish motives this is done. Taking someone's land or property or taking someone from their native land or orgin or oppressing a people is not what Christianity is based on. As a Christian GOD never told me to take what doesn't belong to me. In fact the Bible teaches us that this is a violation of GOD'S Word. (covetousness) He never told me to look down on anybody because there belief system is different. The Bible tells us not to judge others. Like i said previously, Jesus did not come in this world to take anything from us He came to freely gives all things.
And He did that through Laying down His own Life for us. As far as your question do I believe that people who are not brought to Jesus will be lost? First let say this. No one can trully bring another person to Jesus. As a Christians our job is to tell others about the Savior It's called the great commision. A individual must make up in their own mind what they are going to believe and come to Jesus on their own. One of things I think people don't understand that Christianity is based on Love. It was Love that move GOD to do what He did in the first place. And as Christians we are to exercise that same Love to others. When we introduce others to our faith it's commanded that we do it in love, unfortunately its not always done that way. Do to lack of understanding. The Bible teaches us in John 14:6 And Jesus saith I am the way the truth and the light no man comes to the FATHER accept by me. Meaning in order for a person to be received by the Father they must received the son. Think about if you sacrifice your son for the people who you love wouldn't you want them to recognize, appreciate and accept what was done for them. Well the Bible does teach and yes I do believe this that if any person rejects the Son they also reject The FATHER because Their both the same. Mathew 10:32-33 says "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. So in essence yes the Bible does teach that if a person reject Jesus Christ as Savior they will be lost. But they are lost not because GOD didn't love them they are lost because they rejected JESUS. One of the things I did hear about when the missionary's came to Hawaii was that they did introduce Christianity to the Hawaiian people but they were not satified with that they tried to basically rule over the Hawaiian people tellling them what to and not to do which is a form a legalism which is not what the Bible teaches. Man is not to practice lordship over anyone so that was wrong and yes it was done several races of people and it could be very discouraging. Trust me I know I came out of a situation that was very legalistic and it is wrong. But bottom line is Jesus is Love. But He doesn' force Himself or anybody and neither are we.

[kimo55]

thread drift! redirect to christian sermons...

http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=5782

[junebloom]

thread drift! redirect to christian sermons...
alright Mr. Celebrity

[Fondoo2]

what gets me is the avarage christians arogance that there faith is the only one and only those who know the Jesus guy get saved from eturnal damnation.
So the Buddist monk that dedicated his entire life to his spiritual path spreading peace and justice throughout his land will die go up to heaven and hear god say BEEEP!! sorry you cannot pass you didn't believe in my son go burn for all eturnity with the scum of the earth
Can't you see that the power that created the universe isn't going to leave your eternal souls salvation in an incoded book that can and does get interpeted 10000's of diferent ways and give mankind the oportunity and 3000yrs to corrupt what was wrote down the first time.
the reason it's interpreted like you have to know Jesus to get into heaven is because that excuses all the rape war pilage dominance control disregard for personel rights and freedoms basic dumba$$ness that is still hapening today by the logic of "If we have to kill 10000000 of them to save 100 souls thats 100 souls saved!! yay for the good guys!!

[Fondoo2]

alright Mr. Celebrity
he he Hey Junes getting ryled up.Watch out thats how I got sucked into this forum now I cant stop peeking in

[Palolo Joe]

thread drift!yes, the one who regularly practices it himself telling someone else to get back on topic. do as i say, not as i do...

[kimo55]

he he Hey Junes getting ryled up.

June would throw!

[Fondoo2]

yes, the one who regularly practices it himself telling someone else to get back on topic. do as i say, not as i do...

Palolo you found your Arch Nemesis,Kimo!!Just remember anger leads to the dark side young Jedi :)

[Palolo Joe]

Don't worry, the force is with me...

[Menehune Man]

Isn't it true that the overthrow of the Monarchy was caused by the greed of a few business men that didn't want to pay an import tax on the sugarcane? The missionaries that came before them went through many a hardship, (leaving family, home, long ocean voyages), to fulfill what they believed to be their duty. Sharing their belief in Jesus around the world. It's true that the Hawai'ians shared or sold property to missionary families. So the comment that they did well. It was the sailors that brought syphilus, etc. and it was the business men that stole, but the missionaries were hardworking and respected. So out of the conquerors, they were the "good" guys. Hospitals, schools, dentistry and more are some legasys left behind. I'm just trying to point out that there is a difference between European/American dominance and Christianity. Though sometimes they ride along in the same ships. Now to bring it up to date. Who are commiting these sacrilegious commercialisms of Hawai'ian culture going on today? Is it Christians in Hawai'i or elsewhere? Is it business persons here and elsewhere? You know, change is one of the few things we can be sure of in this world. Some we like and some we don't, but change it will. People can cause changes in areas that they believe need it through hardwork and sacrifice. Look at what Mahatma Ghandi accomplished through peaceful resistance. It wasn't easy but he did more than complain.

[DaveNSoKona]

I did a search of www.thehukilau.com in HT and didn't find anything from the Tiki police... what's the deal?

Hukilau (http://www.thehukilau.com)

Sic Kimo sic!

[kimo55]

Hukilau?!
they are going to fish with alotta people with pulling longnets on shore ?!

...there's no stopping mainland cartoon tiki.
The disneyification is relentless.

[newroots]

did you see the scooby doo cartoon of hawai'i.. it was pretty cool , the whole plot was about tiki spirits haunting haole peeps.

[kimo55]

The missaplication and re defining of Hawaiian words (or even pidgin words) such as the aforementioned
Hukilau
isn't even restricted to the mainland it seems.
At happy hour a while ago, asked the waitress about sumpin on the menu:
"What's this "wikiwiki chicken wings all about?"


do you bring em out fast?
are they cooked fast?
No.
was the reply. they aren't fast anything.
uh. why callem wikiwiki then?
Oh it just sounds fun.

aaah. ok.
Guess i shoulda had a few more maitais and not worried about the use of words li'dat for nothing more than alliteration...


ok, while I am on the bitch roll, here, will mention a couple things that grate on us...
"Uncle Lono's Tiki lounge" a tiki souvenir dept. in a major retailer, Waikiki side.
ugh.

and a Japanese tourist aimed retail shop on Kalakaua called:
"Lono, God of Peace"
and their icons are skulls and crosses and fleur-de-lys.
Jee-Zeus!

[Menehune Man]

Oh it just sounds fun.
aaah. ok.
Guess i shoulda had a few more maitais and not worried about the use of words li'dat for nothing more than alliteration...
ok, while I am on the bitch roll, here,
Jee-Zeus!

Whine,whine,whine. And Jesus had nothing to do with it.

[CA Hapa Girl]

...
anyone who feels this, to any degree, is not pono, email them and tellem;
no shame, no shame!

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I sent this...

"Why are you trivializing a sacred religious figure? Did you not do any research before you stole this image to help market your product? Would you have done the same with Jesus on the crucifix and other various saints and disciples? Hey, you could have crucified Jesus with golf tees! What a great idea!! I'm not sure you realize how many people you have truly offended! Why did you not just make up a character for your product? It amazes me how ignorant and insensitive non-thinking people can be."

[kimo55]

Whine,whine,whine. And Jesus had nothing to do with it.
who is this jesus we keep hearin' about?!

[Composite 2992]

who is this jesus we keep hearin' about?!

He's a famous boxer from Waipahu. :)

[kimo55]

not famous enuff, apparently.

[Rickyrab]

Being sacrilegious about Hawaiian culture is nothing new in the commercial world... (http://www.disneylandtoday.com/Adventureland/TikiRoom/tiki1.htm)

One wonders if Walt Disney has ever been to Hawai'i (or been devastated in Hawai'i, for that matter) with antics such as those (http://members.aol.com/Sleslie1/tikitroom.html)... and the company's current Tiki Room has followed up with plays such as this (http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/DizIago/tikiscript.html?mtbrand=AOL_US). Hmmmm.

[Rickyrab]

More mainland tiki stuff here (http://www.roadsidepeek.com/tiki/tikitown/index.htm). It seems to me that mainland "tiki" commercialization reached its peak in a particular time (the 1960s and the 1970s) and place (Southern California), to judge from the Internet, althogh Tiki Commerce extended into the Southwestern "Lower 48" and further, as well as into Japan. Basically, anywhere with plenty of Hawai'i tourism originating.

[kimo55]

yes. thank you for spreading mainland tiki culture.

[Miulang]

[
One wonders if Walt Disney has ever been to Hawai'i (or been devastated in Hawai'i, for that matter) with antics such as those (http://members.aol.com/Sleslie1/tikitroom.html)... and the company's current Tiki Room has followed up with plays such as this (http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/DizIago/tikiscript.html?mtbrand=AOL_US). Hmmmm.

Ummm...Walt Disney is DAID. If you mean the current leaders of Walt Disney Inc., I'm sure that they've been to Hawai'i many times as pampered tourists and could give a rat's patootie about being culturally sensitive...as long as it plays well in Paducah or Peoria.

Miulang

[kimo55]

One wonders if Walt Disney has ever been to Hawai'i with antics such as....



"I am PEEEE Lay!"
yea, thanks, Walt!

[Rickyrab]

Ummm...Walt Disney is DAID. If you mean the current leaders of Walt Disney Inc., I'm sure that they've been to Hawai'i many times as pampered tourists and could give a rat's patootie about being culturally sensitive...as long as it plays well in Paducah or Peoria.

Miulang

Or Anaheim or Orlando.

[cassiedaddy]

depends on the religion, of course...i read in a travel brochure about hawaii
and self righteous missionaries...and as far as commercialization and exploita-
tion goes...i can send a picture from somewhere in england about jehovah's
witnesse/united nations drama...sodomizing the truth...want to see the
picture?...email me back at stafford_2@hotmail.com or just go to danny
haszard's cultbusters web site...

[Glen Miyashiro]

Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam
Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam
Spam, Spam, (Lovely Spam, Wonderful Spam!) Spam, Spam

Boy, you sound a lot like a Usenet guy I remember, who was always promoting his Hawai'i web site no matter what the subject. I won't say his name -- Google is always listening. :D

[Leo Lakio]

i can send a picture from somewhere in england about jehovah's witnesse/united nations drama...sodomizing the truth
Funny how your posts seem to just keep bringing us back to your issue, rather than actually discussing the one in the thread. Please stop that.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Funny how your posts seem to just keep bringing us back to your issue, rather than actually discussing the one in the thread. Please stop that.Apparently, he does it a lot (http://www.google.com/search?q=stafford_2%40hotmail.com). Go away until you can learn how to be a polite forum guest, Ed.

[Leo Lakio]

Apparently, he does it a lot (http://www.google.com/search?q=stafford_2%40hotmail.com). Go away until you can learn how to be a polite forum guest, Ed.
Pamela Anderson's webpage guest book? Now, why didn't I think of that as a resource for information about Jehovah's Witnesses and the United Nations?!? :rolleyes: I guess Mister Ed's just smarter than us (of course, of course.)

[Haoleboy]

Wow. What a thread. In some ways I'm uncomfortable because I'm on the mainland and so far away from home commenting on something quite locally important. But let me comment generally about the sacred and secular/profane.

What is sacred to some people is no big thing to others. To some a sacred object or image just looks neat, fierce, or cool. They are ignorant, or worse callous, toward the cultural meanings behind the object. What is troubling is not so much that other people don't believe what "we" believe nor recognize something may be sacred to someone else. What is troubling is that what "we" believe could be used for material gain through a process of defamation or making dirty what is supposed to be pure in its symbolic essence (i.e., sacred). When something is done to something we consider sacred that is antithetical to its sacredness, it freaks us out. This is basically why some people got so angry at the piece of art, "The Pissing Christ."

But there is another layer regarding the use of Hawaiian Gods mentioned in the first post. The commercial use of a sacred structure of Hawaiian culture by outsiders is not just religiously outrageous to those who subscribe to the religion, but is symbolic of a long history of abuses by outsiders making money off of what was not theirs in the first place.

Who benefits? Who loses?

And then, why should it continue that way?

[kimo55]

Heeeyyy! here we go for anuddah round! wheeee!

The desecration of the gods. Round 36

Aloha, gang!
ok, first ya check dis out....

http://www.bigstuff.biz/gallery/TIKI-BAR

an den ya read my blather:
The big problem some have with this, is it relegates a semblance of Ku to a denigrating, insulting position; a seat for the ass of haoles on the mainland. and when it is pointed out to them that this is seen as very insulting to islanders, who revere the ancient gods of Polynesia, still to this day, the denegrators defend and get very angry, saying no one owns the copyright to a public domain design and leave us alone we can do whatever we want, and nothing after all, is sacred. Although it is pointed out Polynesians have no interest in voracious haole laws being applied to their icons, and why don't mainlanders just leave it alone? Put a plastic jesus figure under yer ass, instead, fer crissakes.
Of course, the problem in bringing this kind of thing to the attention of the public, is more publicity for the company that makes slave tikis, (The highest god of old Hawaii is here to serve you! here! Sit on the tiki throne while you get drunk on yer maitais!)

In the mainlander's tiki quest to turn all things tiki, they need 'tiki' icons all over the wall. In their hands Hawaiian tiki gods holding alcoholic drinks. tikis supporting their tables, tikis used as supports to hold up their bars, tikis at their knees, tikis under their asses.... tikis supporting their bodies on the tiki chair... when will it stop? will it stop? can it be curtailed? Who will help bring an end to this desecration?
can you imagine a carver in old Hawaii, carving an image of Ku in the form of a chair, so he and his friends can lounge on it?!

What's with the flamed tikis? is this a celebration of the burning of the ki'i back then?

These are sacred Polynesian images. They have no place or business being appropriated and utilized in america. Especially in the manner they are now.


In Ancient Hawaii, bowls supported by ki'i were carved and employed as an insult to the personages of other vanquished leaders.
To create and distribute a bench supported in a subservient manner as the Tiki bench shows Ku has been vanquished by the dominant tribe; The haoles and their fad merchandise machine. We are basically agreeing to this domination and oppression by allowing this to continue.
Do we see any backlash here? To what degree do we allow this to devolve? Why do islanders allow their sacred icons to continually be relegated to the lowest insulting level of cheap american commercialism?
Silence is acquiescence.

[Miulang]

Eh Kimo, they opening up one Trader Vic's in Bellevue this week (the one in Seattle closed down 15 years ago). I going spock insai to see if dey still get dakine fake tiki like they used to have...

Miulang

[Palolo Joe]

go white boy, go white boy, go...

[kimo55]

Miulang is not a white boy.

[Peshkwe]

Errrmmm....


The way I see it is that it takes active intentent to make the 'position of submission' to work...and the people doing the seats are clueless. So by default the strength of Ku hasn't been lessened.

Now consider this, those seats are ment for a bar or some place where drinking is gonna go on, they really don't look all that comfy so the folks doing the drinking are gonna get all pained and irritated if they're sitting on em.

So now when they go to hit their vehicles they have the touch of Ku on em and fire water coursing through their veins...whatchu gonna think gonna happen later on?

[Mahi Waina]

Fundamentalist religious intolerance and racist epithats from Kimo55? Not what I think of as Aloha. I guess he must be ali'i. Otherwise he wouldn't want to go back to a culture where he'd be drowned for stepping in the king's shadow.

[Peshkwe]

So ya saying folks who would like a little respect for the religious part of the culture that's being abused and misused should just shut up and eat it like good lil subbies and let the clueless go on their merry way?


*lip quivers*
"MAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!.....Kimo's pokin' at my cool old Middle Eastern stuff with his nassy old Polynesian stuff!! He's gonna pop the pretty PC bubble I put around it too! WHAAAAAAAAAAAA.....~ Make him go sit in the back seat and be quiet!"
*sulks*

[timkona]

My favorite Christians are the kind who defend the sanctity of idols. LOL
Seems to me the war god, Ku, would be more fun than old JC at a frat party.

[kimo55]

My favorite Christians are the kind who defend the sanctity of idols. LOL
Seems to me the war god, Ku, would be more fun than old JC at a frat party.
fun fer who; da fratbrats? or the islanders who for hundreds of years revered Ku as an aspect of their lives, and of course saw him as much more than just "the war god, Ku".


My favorite Christians are the kind who defend the sanctity of idols. LOL


yea, I luv those to death too;
"hey man; why you got a carving of some dying bleeding dude up on this cross? I mean the guy is alll over the place. and that other figgah the white gal with the hood and robes. This is some new wierd idol cult ya got goin on. here... lemmee show ya how ta do it!"

[kimo55]

Fundamentalist religious intolerance and racist epithats from Kimo55? Not what I think of as Aloha.
well, that's one way to look at it. Can't think how...but it is ONE way.

[Mahi Waina]

well, that's one way to look at it. Can't think how...but it is ONE way.

Here's a clue: Mohammed Khatami and Pat Robertson

[kimo55]

"it's clear as mud, but it covers the ground..."

[Mahi Waina]

[QUOTE=Peshkwe]So ya saying folks who would like a little respect for the religious part of the culture that's being abused and misused should just shut up and eat it like good lil subbies and let the clueless go on their merry way?

Yes, I want to respect and learn about the Hawaiian culture; that's why I'm reading this thread. But if I have to sift through comments about Haole's asses, I probably won't get far enough to be enlightened.

"Dr." James Dobson likely never personally bombed an abortion clinic, but he gives a rationalization to sociopaths that do! If a cartoon of Mohammed can spark world-wide rioting, then do I have to worry about buying a tiki in Kalihi?

[kimo55]

if I have to sift through comments about Haole's asses, I probably won't get far enough to be enlightened.

What's the problem with that.
This is the majority of those that buy and use these products;
haoles.
= Foreigners. Whites.
(foreigners to the Polynesian culture, of course)
That's the majority part of the body that sets down on these tiki slave products; asses.
statement of fact.
Sounds like some people may prefer to not "get far enough to be enlightened"

[Peshkwe]

[QUOTE=Peshkwe]So ya saying folks who would like a little respect for the religious part of the culture that's being abused and misused should just shut up and eat it like good lil subbies and let the clueless go on their merry way?

Yes, I want to respect and learn about the Hawaiian culture; that's why I'm reading this thread. But if I have to sift through comments about Haole's asses, I probably won't get far enough to be enlightened.

"Dr." James Dobson likely never personally bombed an abortion clinic, but he gives a rationalization to sociopaths that do! If a cartoon of Mohammed can spark world-wide rioting, then do I have to worry about buying a t