"free speech"

[kimo55]

University of Hawai'i professor David E. Stannard, in regards to tonight's speech by Ward Churchill, tells us:

"we honor first amendment by hearing professor."
wrongo chucko. I can be miles away from U.H. and the professor's speech and will in no way disrespect the concept of free speech or the first amendment.

I would in no way want to add to the audience number by my attendance. I have no interest in what he has to spew.
But that does not mean I would dishonor "free speech".
I am more concerned with what Churchill dishonors with this agenda of his.

And may I remind Stannard;
the free speech concept doesn't give permission to the ruffian to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Heh. This whole Churchill thing makes me think of the furor over Professor Oliver Lee at UH. Is he still there, or has he retired yet?

[pzarquon]

Some background (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Feb/19/ln/ln22p.html), and an update (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Feb/22/ln/ln23p.html) this morning. Hawaii Reporter ran a letter (http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?e2a4ab5c-f735-4e5c-8029-b3ce1c2d4d12)from one of the sponsoring organizations yesterday. I see his speech here made stories in mainland papers, but not surprisingly there's a dearth of coverage in the university's own campus daily.

[kimo55]

...Professor Oliver Lee at UH. Is he still there, or has he retired yet?


too creative to retire; he is in new zealand or is it australia? shooting a film.

[Miulang]

If his wacko theories about 9/11 make people question their true beliefs, then I think Churchill is doing us all a favor. One thing I can't stand to see in this country today is the lack of critical thinking...most people are just willing to "go with the flow," and that's how we got this country into the mess it's in.

We've all been blessed with brains (well, most of us anyway :p ). We need to exercise that brain just as much as we do with the rest of our body. An atrophied brain sitting atop a buff body is just cannon fodder for the next war.

Miulang

[kimo55]

If his wacko theories about 9/11 make people question their true beliefs, then I think Churchill is doing us all a favor.
Miulang


I will give him this, tho:
when he disses the victims of the 9/11 attacks, equating them to the highest level of the Nazi empire, he is manipulating the press, and doing it very well; getting immediate, front and center international coverage. When Ward Churchill tells us here; "Tourists can help Hawaii and Hawaiians by staying away, and people should break the kneecaps of tourists if that is what it takes to keep them from Hawaii."
He is tossing out soundbites. It's pavlovian.
I would not go that far. That's simply too inciteful.

But this gets press. And this results in bookings.
So, we ask:
what are his motives?
What will the masses learn from his message?!
mehtinks there are too many kneejerk reactionaries and non-thinkers who allow someone like Churchill to do their thinking for them.
yes, everyone has been blessed with brains. The gray matter between the ears. Trouble is, too many use just 10% or so, of the tool. And someone like Ward pops up, and idiots who need justification for more hate and their pro terrorist viewpoints get behind Ward and parrot his words.

People who question their own beliefs, those that actually perform critical thinking... don't need an incendiary person such as W.C...

[Miulang]

Eh Kimo, What I want to know is why Churchill's baiting the press with sound bites is any less pernicious than what our "objective" national media are doing to the masses? Thus far, the Bush Administration has scored at least 2 hired guns to promote some of their policies (No Child Left Behind, Raising your children) and a ringer in the White House Press Room, and the media is lapping all of this up as gospel.

Maybe this is what drove Hunter Thompson to commit suicide. The dumbing down and brainwashing of the American public.

Miulang

[kimo55]

Eh Kimo, What I want to know is why Churchill's baiting the press with sound bites is any less pernicious than what our "objective" national media are doing to the masses?

Miulang


dunno. nevah said was or wasn't.

[Glen Miyashiro]

From what he has written and what he is reported to have said, Churchill sounds a lot like his friend Haunani-Kay Trask: abrasive and self-important. However, as offensively phrased as it is, he has a point. Calling the WTC workers "little Eichmanns" goes over the line; he should have stuck with his earlier writings comparing Americans with the "good Germans" who didn't object to Hitler. That, at least, is arguable.

[kimo55]

Calling the WTC workers "little Eichmanns" goes over the line; he should have stuck with his earlier writings comparing Americans with the "good Germans" who didn't object to Hitler. That, at least, is arguable.


no.
Calling the WTC workers "little Eichmanns"
is;
"arguable"


'comparing Americans with the "good Germans" who didn't object to Hitler'
is more unarguable.

[Glen Miyashiro]

I hope we both mean that the second is a more meaningful comparison.

[kimo55]

I hope we both mean that the second is a more meaningful comparison.


All I know is:
"arguable"
means you can argue the point. It is argue-able. able to be argued. up for legitimate debate.

...as Merriam Webster tells us:
ar·gu·able
Function: adjective
1 : open to argument , dispute, or question
2 : that can be plausibly or convincingly argued
....and...
Entry: ir·re·fut·able
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin irrefutabilis, from Latin in- + refutare to refute
: impossible to refute : INCONTROVERTIBLE <irrefutable proof>



thus... "unarguable" means "irrefutable".

(which I wish folks would use, more than the klunky, awkward and by now nonsensical "argueable")

That said, I have just said what I said, having said that.

[Palolo Joe]

That said, I have just said what I said, having said that.Which is absolutely nothing. Your opinion of what is "arguable" and "irrefutable" is just that - an opinion.

[Miulang]

Which is absolutely nothing. Your opinion of what is "arguable" and "irrefutable" is just that - an opinion.
I get one suggestion foa you, Joe. If you like beef wit Kimo about every single post he go make, den why you like cause pilikia in front of da rest of us? Kimo neva wen go say dat what he says is NOT his opinion. So you get your opinion and he get his (whoopee!). If you no can be moa constructive, den leave him alone. What you doing reminds me of what one sniper would do...take one pot shot and den run away.

Malama pono,
Miulang

[Palolo Joe]

What you doing reminds me of what one sniper would do...take one pot shot and den run away.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not a sniper at all. I ain't running away. Kimo likes to run his mouth, and he has a right to, since it is his opinion.

When he tries to shove that opinion down the throats of others on this board and belittle them for disagreeing, however, that's when I find it necessary to chime in. Take a look at some of the older threads and see how many times Kimo derailed them with a pointless comment or a lame joke.

I've tried to be polite. I''ve tried to be constructive. None of that works with this guy.

And watch... now he'll edit his posts to change what he originally wrote. He's done it before, and he'll do it again.

[Pomaikaikeolaho]

[QUOTE=kimo55]When Ward Churchill tells us here; "Tourists can help Hawaii and Hawaiians by staying away, and people should break the kneecaps of tourists if that is what it takes to keep them from Hawaii."
QUOTE]

Ho I guess I'll go find da buggah en break his knees den, or what he's from da aina?????? Funny one more haloe telling the locals how foah live, just like hundred years ago???????????????????????????????????

[Miulang]

The reviews on Ward Churchill's speech at UH last night are in (http://starbulletin.com/2005/02/23/news/index2.html). Mostly, people were sympathetic and on Churchill's side. There were a few "white Republican" type protestors but on the whole, the crowd seemed mostly interested in what he had to say, even if it was mostly about himself and very little about academic freedom.

Miulang

[Kilinahe]

If Hemmings had just kept his mouth shut and not said anything, I really don't think Churchill would have gotten all the attention that he got. I had heard of this guy but had no idea he was coming until Hemmings got his panties all in a bunch and tried to have the thing cancelled. As wrong as I think this guy is, I know there's no point in trying to stop him; everybody's going to go just to see what the big deal is.

Funny how Hemmings gets all wound up and all the conservative types are tsk-tsking, but you just wait until they wanna bring in Michelle Malkin or some other stupid fascist in to speak and just watch how fast they scream and whine about freedom of speech. Hypocrites.

[Karen]

I do not believe that most of the people that applauded Churchill last night even knew or know the even more radical and HYPCRITICAL things he stands for! He wants the United States to cease to exist, totally & literally. He is on record saying that he does not just want different leadership here, but a quote of his

"I want the state gone: transform the situation to U.S. out of North America. U.S. off the planet. Out of existence altogether."

Where does this man hope to live & still practice this crazy type of speech after he gets his wish?!

He did finally admit that he is not native American, & as part Cherokee myself, I appreciate that, but he did not make his wishes known about wanting the US of A to disappear, last night. Hmmm....I wonder why!

In an official statement from the Oneida movement which Churchill reportedly has claimed to be member of, this has been said about him. "

''It's disturbing that anyone would use such hateful speech, and do so while claiming to be an American Indian when there is significant evidence that he is not. Professor Churchill caused many in the media to falsely believe an American Indian scholar could besmirch the lives of those who died on 9-11. Because of this, he owes every American Indian an apology."

[Miulang]

At the rate things are going in the country and the world at large, that wish of Churchill's may come true sooner than any of us care to believe. All it would take is a nuclear run up (on its way to reality right now with N. Korea, Iran, India, and Pakistan) and one misguided missile and then, bend over and kiss your okoles goodbye!

Miulang

[kimo55]

At the rate things are going in the country and the world at large, that wish of Churchill's may come true sooner than any of us care to believe. All it would take is a nuclear run up (on its way to reality right now with N. Korea, Iran, India, and Pakistan) and one misguided missile and then, bend over and kiss your okoles goodbye!

Miulang


yer right!


(eh waiddaminnit! whereah you tink my okole steh!?)

[zztype]

Churchill is entitled to say what he wants. But NOBODY is forced to listen to him. Churchill's speech is free, but it cost ME money to bring him here. His visit was partially paid for by public funds--tax dollars.

If some on the UH faculty want to bring Churchill here to speak for free, they should be willing to bear the cost of it, as they wish to hear his free speech.

I, on the other hand, don't wish to hear Churchill's free speech, so therefore I should not be made to pay for it.

Churchill can say whatever he wants...ON HIS OWN DIME.

[Karen]

Hi Miulang & Kimo~

Nah, that wouldn't be the end of this nation, only of one major area, the one a nuclear might hit. They don't have 'em big enough to cover thousands of square miles & we'd retaliate huge if we were hit, so....it isn't true that Churchill may get his horrible & whacko wish. This nation isn't going away thankfully for the entire world, since THIS nation is the most generous on the earth. We are blessed & we bless many. Churchill wishes to not only erase this nation, but to take much away from the world, in doing so.

[helen]

Then again which part of the US does Churchill wants to disappear? The people of the United States or the government of the United States?

[Karen]

Hi Helen!

Apparently, both. He is quoted elsewhere as saying that he doesn't just want different leaders (govt.) but for the nation to be wiped off of the planet. Sounds pretty clear, eerily. Thank God it's one wish he won't be getting, not until the end of the world/age, if there is one. The more quotes of this person that I read, "lunatic fringe" comes to mind, & nothing less.

[1stwahine]

Oh!Oh! UH got National attention tonight when Bill O'Riley blasted them on television. Wasn't UH's fault...the students raised the money and hosted the event. What, why do I care? I hate when anybody yells against anything regarding our Hawai'i. I'm sensitive! :mad:

[mokunui]

Bill O'reilly spins...

http://video.google.com/videopreview?q=hawaii&time=10000&page=2&docid=1002442603317951274&urlcreated=1110673271&chan=Fox+News+Channel&prog=The+O%27Reilly+Factor&date=Thu+Feb+24+2005+at+1%3A00+AM+PST

[manoasurfer123]

Looks like Ward Churchill might be out of a job pretty soon...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060613/ap_on_re_us/embattled_professor

"DENVER - A University of Colorado committee recommended on Tuesday firing a professor who called some of the World Trade Center victims "little Eichmanns," citing repeated research misconduct."