Gated communities: gates to exclude what?

[waioli kai]

MAUI'S ONLINE POLL re: Gated Communities legislation

Legislation is being proposed on both Kauai and the Big Island to ban gated communities from all future residential developments. Would you favor such a ban in Maui County?

As of the time of this post: Yes 44.9 % ; No 50.8 % ; Don't know 4.3 %

******

Some comments on the poll recorded @ mauinews.com :

3/31/2005 1:26:37 PM from IP# 68.232.255.52
Let them live behind bars and leave the rest of us alone.

3/31/2005 1:34:08 PM from IP# 70.93.54.14
ITS A SLAP IN THE FACE TO PEOPLE WHO CANT EVEN AFFORD TO BUY MILK FOR THEIR CHILDREN...WE KNOW THE ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR RULES, BUT, DONT SHOVE IT IN OUR FACES.

3/31/2005 2:24:47 PM from IP# 207.175.138.100
unless we can control the ice induced crime people deserve the right to protect their property

3/31/2005 6:17:30 PM from IP# 168.215.239.72
Gated communities present challenges to emergency responders

3/31/2005 6:36:11 PM from IP# 165.248.247.133
Oh yes! Maui is getting too overcrowded, we cannot make room or space for new people. Go invest in somewhere else!! Thank you for visiting though!

3/31/2005 8:29:29 PM from IP# 205.188.117.9
Gated communities are being promulgated by mainlanders who are so conceited that they feel they need to be "protected" ...protected from what? These would be gated communities impede the natural surroundings and are an insult to the indigenous people who constitute the real soul of the islands, not these uppety mainlanders who really believe they are better than you and I just because they have a few more dollarsin their pockets, which are made of plastic.

3/31/2005 8:32:03 PM from IP# 198.94.221.66
A dangerous precedent. Be careful what you wish for.

3/31/2005 8:59:18 PM from IP# 64.203.25.232
Sad especially near beaches where quick access would be denied

3/31/2005 9:25:33 PM from IP# 64.65.99.134
gated communities further isolate working class residents and the wealthy estate owner who treat everyone like slaves. If these rich people want to live so seperately from the local comunity they should stay on the mainland

3/31/2005 11:29:32 PM from IP# 209.240.205.62
THey should be allowed to move to a ZOO if they want a gated community. Elsewhere, it should not be permittedm as we live on a very limited Aina and should be accessible to all.

4/1/2005 12:23:26 AM from IP# 66.91.1.163
Why should the rest of us care if they want to close themselves in? Lots of people have gates on their entrances. what is the difference if it is a single home or a whole area?

4/1/2005 11:07:57 AM from IP# 216.194.144.254
This is just another way for the "Haves" keeping their property, beach access, and other areas, off-limits to the "HAVE NOTS"

4/1/2005 2:59:00 PM from IP# 205.188.116.71
If crime was adequately prevented in Maui there would be no need for gated communities.

4/1/2005 3:27:59 PM from IP# 4.43.155.178
waste of money,use it for school kids

4/1/2005 6:04:03 PM from IP# 63.199.70.18
safety comes first!!!!!!!!

4/1/2005 6:21:32 PM from IP# 12.42.50.51
I believe gated communities separate the island residents. Mostly created by newcomers to our islands that moved here because of the island people and lifestyle and who now want the same ethnic separations from where they came from.

4/1/2005 7:41:18 PM from IP# 64.75.219.41
What a stupid idea. The mayor of Kauai and the big island should be working with the private sector to reduce the gap between those that have and those that have not instead of worrying about gates on property. If the politicians in Maui County seriously consider this issue it should tell you where their priorities are. Instead of laws regulating gates how about more housing and a better economy supporting better jobs? Most of the people decrying the gate issue are those who came here from somewhere else who now want paradise to be what it is they want it to be and forget about those who were here first needing a home and a better job. Change will come with our without you so deal with it constructively and make Maui a better place and forget about the political minutae of gates.

4/2/2005 11:00:41 AM from IP# 214.4.3.75
if the yes voters had their homes broken into, they would change their minds. besides, that ban would be unconstitutional. the county would end up paying in court. the state refuses to protects us from criminal, we must do it ourselves.

4/2/2005 12:11:37 PM from IP# 64.75.149.5
If we ever have a severe storm, a tsunami, an enemy attack with nuclear weapoms, gates and fences would increase the deaths and suffering. We are in this world as brothers not enemies.

4/2/2005 2:14:51 PM from IP# 24.113.62.144
Sept 11, 2001 has changed the face of personal security. If gated communities are done with esthetics to match the local environment, it could be an asset to the local community.

4/2/2005 4:09:53 PM from IP# 24.161.128.103
Since when do we have a right to impose such restrictions on private property?

4/2/2005 4:47:43 PM from IP# 207.88.213.20
"wealthy estate owners who treat everyone like slaves". We are all slaves in one way or another. In our minds we are slaves. Think about it.

4/2/2005 5:00:17 PM from IP# 4.156.105.206
gates are not Hawaii!

4/2/2005 7:22:24 PM from IP# 4.26.240.185
Gated communities have private roads so they will be required to maintain them, not the county.

4/3/2005 12:24:13 AM from IP# 66.91.179.219
Homeowners should make the choice and not the government. This idea sounds like socialism.

4/3/2005 4:03:25 PM from IP# 63.16.57.48
gated communities should be welcomed in Hawaii.

4/3/2005 7:57:55 PM from IP# 64.128.3.1
Some people need to live in a gated community because of the crime rate. Clean up the crime, both on the street and in the government, and maybe people will feel secure enough to have no need for gated communities.

4/3/2005 8:34:57 PM from IP# 199.62.8.252
With the rise of theft, burglaries and unlawful entries, private citizens are entitled to live in gated communities where they can secure their real estate property. I strongly oppose a legislation to ban gated communities. I value privacy and security in these times.

4/3/2005 11:09:28 PM from IP# 208.54.15.129
To live in a gated community should be allowed if one chooses to do so

4/4/2005 3:45:00 AM from IP# 155.48.144.11
I go to school in boston, and places are not even gated, why? because they are a "communities." if you need a gate to prevent the locals from you, stay there where you are from!

4/4/2005 9:31:58 AM from IP# 66.190.66.127
This imposes too much government control over private property. beach acess must be provided however.

4/4/2005 2:24:33 PM from IP# 140.31.201.142
Once again, this is government intrusion. For those who dont like gated communities should just not live in one. People who like them should live in them. Why is it necessary for those who dont live in a gated community feel as though they deserve access to the community which they dont live. On top of that, with the increase in crime on Maui I wish I could afford to live in a gated community. When I drive around Papa Avenue I see MANY "gated" houses. I think the same reason they gate their houses is the same reason people want to live in gated communities.

4/4/2005 4:59:50 PM from IP# 205.166.249.142
NO MORE GATED COMMUNITIES ON MAUI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4/4/2005 6:27:05 PM from IP# 64.12.117.9
Lets keep them locked.

4/4/2005 8:11:46 PM from IP# 66.159.217.36
MAUI IS NO PLACE PLACE FOR THE RICH ELITISTS. IF THEY ARE AFRAID THEN THEY SHOULD GO ELSEWHERE.

4/4/2005 10:00:00 PM from IP# 4.30.90.183
In an ideal world, it would be nice to live without fences. Unfortunately, the increasing crime and drug problems on this island necessitate such things as gated communities, neighborhood watch programs and other security measures to protect our homes and loved ones.

4/5/2005 3:11:18 PM from IP# 4.43.152.79
Distinctions should be made as to what such gates are for: whether they are to exclude just motored vehicles of non-residents, or, also to exclude non-resident pedestrian and bicycle traffic. The former should absolutely be allowed to be excluded from a community; not so, necessarily, the latter.

[waioli kai]

aloha for every passing vehicle?

While Superferry H-4 threatens to, intends to, make our neighbor islands more suburbs of Honolulu, some mayors and legislators are saying "Communities should be welcoming and accessible to every-one", and at least one neighbor island newspaper editorializes about a "drive through the nicer areas of Orange County in Southern California" lamenting not on the fact that the act of driving through any place faster than walking speed, car windows up, A/C on, necessarily means that one is not in direct contact with anything outside, especially not in contact with whatever human community there may be outside the driver's vehicle !!

Since when is the human community of a neighborhood enhanced by strangers' vehicular access to our neighborhood? Or are our leaders suggesting that we pretend to be living in a world where there are no strangers?

Pretend that we be of bountiful, genuine aloha for every passing vehicle? Will the alleged wisdom of our leaders permit/entice onto our public (and private) roads and right-of-ways more motored vehicles to "share a sense of community" as they pass us--- we, breathing their exhaust fumes; they behind their vehicles' tinted glass moving at 25+mph while our children, and ourselves, dodge motor vehicle traffic virtually everywhere beyond the yards of our homes?

Engendering a sense of community in my family, muchless in my neighborhood, is without a doubt the last thing a diesel exhaust belching, rumbling tourist bus or van brings to us. Whether in buses, vans, trucks or cars, whether tourists from Japan or never-before (nor likely later)-laid-eyes-on- Hawaii residents, the fact that there are humans inside passing vehicles does nothing, absolutely nothing positive to enhance our feeling of community .

To ban so-called "gated-communities" without further qualification as to what constitutes "a gated -community", our mayors, legislators, newspaper editors, and visitors need to further present their case as to why we all should, as they apparently do, feel that such unrestricted, open, public vehicular use of, access to, our neighborhoods (even for 1 hour, muchless 24/7 /365) makes for "strong, integrated community " , supports " a pedestrian-friendly environment" , has anything to do with making housing more affordable, adds to "the spirit of aloha" , leads to "strong community bonds" .

[LikaNui]

One question that's never been asked in all this fuss in the media:
Why are gated communities any different than private homes that have gates???
:eek:

[kimo55]

One question that's never been asked in all this fuss in the media:
Why are gated communities any different than private homes that have gates???
:eek:


It is different because it is an easy target for those that need another subject to rant and rail and prove they are politically correct and prove to the populace, (or anyone who is listening, or at least, to themselves), that they strive for the common socialistic good.

[waioli kai]

One question that's never been asked in all this fuss in the media:
Why are gated communities any different than private homes that have gates???
:eek:

At least a gated community is well defined by its gate. It is, afterall, called "a community", a term not usually associated with being unfriendly, anti-social, exclusive, discriminatory, or similar general unpleasantries.

A properly functioning gated community should more likely be a community where private properties are without the need for gates.

[waioli kai]

One question that's never been asked in all this fuss in the media:
Why are gated communities any different than private homes that have gates??? --LikaNui

It is different because it is an easy target for those that need another subject to rant and rail and prove they are politically correct and prove to the populace, (or anyone who is listening, or at least, to themselves), that they strive for the common socialistic good. --kimo55

= = = = = = = = =
LikaNui, the following articles indicate that there is not much media fuss about gated communities on Kauai. Apparently the Mayor of Kauai is trying to seek what kimo55 refers to as the "politically correct" high ground, attempting to prove possession of both some sort of moral goodness and an issue on which to hang it.
= = = = = = =


www.kauaiworld.com
March 25, 2005 - 9:36 A.M.4:47:19 am
Baptiste proposes ban on gated communities
By Lester Chang - The Garden Island

LIHU‘E — When Mayor Bryan Baptiste grew up on Kaua‘i in the 1960s, Kaua‘i residents used hedges to define their property lines.

Still, residents and children at that time would cross over to neighboring properties to interact and "talk story," Baptiste said. The exchange led to strong community bonds. Fence barriers were unheard of, he said.
Baptiste wants Kaua‘i to return to those days as much as possible.

On Thursday, Baptiste announced he would send a bill soon to the Kaua‘i County Council that would ban gated communities in future developments on the island.

The absence of gated communities will encourage residents to interact and come together as a community to work out common problems, Baptiste told members of the media in his office at the Lihu‘e Civic Center on Thursday.

Only two gated communities are found on Kaua‘i, one on Crater Hill in Kilauea (Seacliff Plantation), and the other on a hillside located above Nawiliwili Harbor off Hulemalu Road. ?

"I envision our island with integrated communities where people of various socio-economic levels and cultures can live together without gates or barriers that hinder access," Baptiste said. "In this island paradise, communities should be welcoming and accessible to everyone."

Government leaders and residents need to work together in the planning and development of communities on Kaua‘i, he said.

Those folks should take steps to "provide a framework for development with a broad range of housing requirements, affordable, gap and market, as well as providing for the economic and social needs of our neighborhoods, such as retail, and commercial endeavors, all in a pedestrian-friendly environment."

Baptiste said his preference is to have communities "inclusive, not exclusive."

Gated communities "foster isolationism, where people don't want to be part of the community they live in," Baptiste said. "Is this the legacy we want to leave for our children?" he asked.

"We need to put things in place that will miti-gate the weakening of our communities and enhance the strength of our communities," Baptiste told The Garden Island.

If the bill proposed by the mayor passes, it would amend a 1987 Kaua‘i County code that relates to subdivisions.

No construction of gates that prevent access to private roads serving five or more dwelling units would be allowed, Baptiste said. The bill would not allow the installation of guard stations or other means of restricting public access across private roads, he said.

"This bill is not a test of gated communities," Baptiste said. "This is a policy which we want our communities to relate to, the message they send to each other. Without strong communities, we would be like anyone else." Baptiste said building communities is a cornerstone of his administration, and a number of programs have been implemented to support that priority."

- - - - - -


In Our View (editorial, The Garden Island, www.kauaiworld.com)
30 March 2005

Mayor's right on gated communities

A drive through the nicer areas of Orange County in Southern California will give you a clear picture of what gated communities look like. The gates provide security for residents of the subdivisions behind the gates, which are usually made up of high-end homes. The gates also set off the communities from direct contact with the rest of the county, adding an air of exclusivity and what some call "attitude" towards others lower down on the economic scale.

Today on Kaua‘i there are only two gated communities, one in Kilauea, the other in the Nawiliwili area.

Mayor Bryan J. Baptiste is asking members of the County Council to enact a permanent ban on gated communities on Kaua‘i. The mayor said to the council: "Communities should be welcoming and accessible to every-one."

While one could see the gates as a reflection of the ancient "kapu" or "forbidden" boundaries of ancient Kaua‘i, those days are long gone.

However, our rural lifestyle and deep roots in the plantation area of strong, integrated communities are being threatened by the fast pace of high-end home construction versus the slowing pace of homes coming on the market that first-time and middle-class buyers can afford.

This trend is moving our prime North-Shore and South-Shore areas to the place where Aspen, Colo. is at now; a place where average people can't afford to live. The difference here is that in Aspen workers can commute from lower-priced areas. On Kaua‘i, the Pacific Ocean limits that possibility. Mayor Baptiste's call for a ban on gated communities is just one step that should be taken to make sure the economics don't drive away the spirit of aloha from Kaua‘i, and that feeling aloha in some Kaua‘i communities won't require a steep price tag in the future.

[scrivener]

One question that's never been asked in all this fuss in the media:
Why are gated communities any different than private homes that have gates???
:eek:


I'm with you. A better parallel is secured-entrance condos. Why does nobody have a problem with that?

I totally understand that people dislike gated communities, but I also understand the need (or even just the desire) some people have for this kind of security. If they own the property, I don't see why they can't do with it what they want. The rights of property are among the most sacred in the nation, and as long as a gate in front of THIS group of homes doesn't interfere with your right to live on YOUR property the way you want, I don't think you've got anything to say in the matter.

[craigwatanabe]

I believe it's more the "Grass is greener on the other side" mentality that drives this belief that gated communities are bad. Not so as I've lived in gated communities in East Honolulu and can attest that there is so much paranoia going on that neighbors don't even come out and talk to one another! After living in an exclusive gated community I realized many who live there just don't want to be neighborly and just want to cozy up in their very expensive home.

So the grass isn't greener it's just manicured better, however human nature dictates that when one is restricted from doing something...they want to do it even more! And such is the gate. If you can't get in/thru it you'll believe it's gotta be better once inside or else why keep everyone out? AND you develop that Crabs in the Bucket attitude whereas if you can't get in then you'll do everything to prevent those who can from doing so! Like crabs in a bucket...you see one crab succeeding to climb out then you'll see several crabs reaching for that crab and pulling it back down in the bucket.

It's definately the Have Nots that are pulling the successful crab back down and gated communities give the perspective that those inside are the successful ones.

For those who feel a lock on society isn't necessary, I say unhinge that front door of yours to your house and don't bother locking your car doors and let those who want to experience your bathroom or backseat enjoy it for they have none themselves.

If living in a gated community keeps out those midnight drifters (hopped up Nissans and Hondas) from laying rubber sideways in a culdasac or burglers from casing homes then I'm all for it

However I do believe gated communities should restrict public access to points beyond or behind it's outer boundries such as shoreline or hiking trail access. This is where gated communities can work with the public sector on allowing either limited access or a viable alternate route to public lands.

[kimo55]

IF... you live at the end of a long quiet country cul de sac, devoid of
streetlights, near a... lets say, heiau, you WILL have various and
sundry people coming into your area and parking at all hours. Just
hangin out and maybe wandering around. and maybe iceheads looking for a
convenient quick breakin.
IF... this area is gated with a guard, you feel much safer. And you SEE
no such wanderers.
It guarantees a higher level of peace of mind. (And that is what many
want.)
It guarantees a reduction in strangers wandering or cruising around the
neighborhood.
Who knows WHAT percentage. But the before and after activity is proof
enuff for some.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Slate has a relevant article, The Mall Goes Undercover (http://slate.msn.com/id/2116246/), about commercial spaces that pretend to look like public spaces but really aren't:

Like insecure teenagers, malls keep changing their style. They are ripping away their roofs and drywalled corridors; adding open-air plazas, sidewalks, and street-side parking; and rechristening themselves "lifestyle centers." This new look may remind you of something: a vibrant urban street. Yet, while these new malls may appear to be public space, they're not public at all—at least if you want to do anything but shop. They represent a bait-and-switch routine on the part of developers, one that exchanges the public realm for the commercial one. They're also enormously successful—by the most recent count, there are about 130 lifestyle centers scattered around the country.Like gated communities, they want to look like an open public area, but they simultaneously want to control the space so as to be able to exclude "undesirables", however that may be defined.

[craigwatanabe]

"However I do believe gated communities should restrict public access to points beyond or behind it's outer boundries such as shoreline or hiking trail access. This is where gated communities can work with the public sector on allowing either limited access or a viable alternate route to public lands."

I meant to say shouldn't restrict public access. Sorry for that typo...big oops!

[Glen Miyashiro]

I was wondering about that one, brah. :D

[waioli kai]

"However I do believe gated communities shouldn't restrict public access to points beyond or behind it's outer boundries such as shoreline or hiking trail access. This is where gated communities can work with the public sector on allowing either limited access or a viable alternate route to public lands." cwatanabe


'Public access' needs to be further defined. There are those who feel that unless they can take their motor vehicle with them, they do not have access.

In Honolulu news media yesterday there were numerous reports about the elementary school in the neighborhood where a young boy was run over, killed, by a truck on his way to his school bus stop. Although the elementary school was not the boy's destination, it was pointed out that other children in the deceased boy's neighborhood were compelled by the school's 6 ft. high perimeter fence to take dangerous circuitous routes through their neighborhood to get to the school's front entrance. Obviously there exists other gated properties which restrict, when not altogether prohibit, public access.

[Miulang]

I've got a somewhat related question that I hope someone who understands the ahupua'a concept can explain: how did the families on the ahupua'a know what the boundaries of their ahupua'a was, since it ran mauka to makai and covered a whole swath of land? Was it through the construction of stone walls?

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

magic :D


okay gotta add more characters to allow posting of this one word reply which totally defuses the beauty of one word replies. I'm bummed. :(

[waioli kai]

"I've got a somewhat related question that I hope someone who understands the ahupua'a concept can explain: how did the families on the ahupua'a know what the boundaries of their ahupua'a was, since it ran mauka to makai and covered a whole swath of land? Was it through the construction of stone walls?" ---Miulang

Typee:A Peep at Polynesian Life, by Herman Melville, was the first source of a definitive feeling I ever had about what means ahupua'a.
Having lived years in several ahupua'a two of which are defined by ridgelines extending from the highest peaks in the island's center, leading to impassable cliff promotories at the ocean's waterline, it is easy to accept (whether it is true or not) Melville's depiction that pre-colonial times Polynesian residents (Melville was depicting Marquesas more than Hawaii) of adjoining ahupua'a would not even speak the same language sometimes.

In another case, two ahupua'a are delienated from one another by "a stream" that amounts to little more than a tidal ditch which descends to the ocean about three feet in a quarter mile, from a usually pondless lowground at the base of a 200' "mountain" which runs parallel to the shoreline.

Not yet having inquired of elders about some answers to your question, but having asked the not so elder, I confimed what I had thought: that there were/are markers. Rock walls do not seem to be among such markers, as much as do more natural markers. Since each ahupua'a is unique, so too is that which defines each one; although, strictly speaking, apart from each ahupua'a shoreline, that which defines one ahupua'a simultaneously defines its adjacent ahupua'a.

[kimo55]

magic :D


okay gotta add more characters to allow posting of this one word reply which totally defuses the beauty of one word replies. I'm bummed. :(


just throw in more cartoon faces. to most people that is beautiful art. arguably.

[Ikaika]

I figif they want to live in a encampment then obviously would we want them out in public? If they feel the need to ostrasize themselves because they feel they need protection then let them rot in their crappy looking compounds I'll be enjoying the view. :D