Explosions in London's transit system

[helen]

This story interrupt KITV for a few minutes just before midnight (HST), then I tuned in to CNN were it is reported that there were few explosions in London's transit systems. Some affect the subway and another two was reported on the bus system.

The link here (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html) is from CNN's web site, since this is a on-going story the link or the story may change.

[1stwahine]

We are on ORANGE Alert! :eek:

[Miulang]

The orange alert is only for mass transit systems (buses, subways, trains) and their main concern is with the mass transit systems on the mainland: DC, NYC, Boston, Atlanta.

Both Tony Blair and the Prez spoke this morning about never giving in to terrorists because these people are using fear to keep victims from going about their business. Did it ever occur to them that possibly the reason why the terrorists are acting out is because the people of Afghanistan and Iraq are being terrorized by the US and British troops in their own countries? That through occupation, the people of Iraq especially cannot go about their daily lives without fear? Oh wait. I forgot. We're not terrorists, we're LIBERATORS. What a crock. :mad:

There's a law in physics: for every action, there is an equal reaction. Could this be why the terrorists do what they do? Which side will be the first to break the cycle? Wouldn't you feel safer if the National Guard was at home protecting us from possible attacks instead of terrorizing the Iraqis?

Miulang

P.S. the other thing is so far, the Brits have not definitely said it was "al Qaeda terrorists" who caused the bombings. For all we know, it could have been a bunch of pissed off Parisians who were upset that London got chosen over Paris to host the 2012 summer Olympics.

[pzarquon]

While I hate George Bush and his foreign policy as much as the next commie pinko leftist hippie, rather than seizing this moment for more political rhetoric and coldly asserting that "we" (as in Western peoples) just got what we deserved... I think I'd just like to express my condolences and compassion for those innocents killed (33 so far (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html)) and injured in this horrible, malicious act.

[Glen Miyashiro]

While I'm appalled that anyone would deliberately blow up civilians like this, I can't help but think that this attack only plays into Bush and Blair's hands by bolstering their justifications for their war policies.

:(

[pzarquon]

My brother is in London. We were scrambling most of the morning to find him. Turns out he and his girlfriend are fine, but their traveling companion who went out to wander around hasn't come back yet. It's weird to have a link to something on the other side of the planet... and it's interesting how, despite the wonders and prevalence of technology, how hard it can still be to connect to someone when it matters.

[Miulang]

Oooh...here's a little story from al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9211) that says Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Finance Minister, was in London to attend an economic conference because he got a pre-attack warning from Scotland Yard minutes before the blasts. Turns out the hotel that was holding the conference was directly above one of the Tube stops that got bombed. Hmmm...maybe it was Palestinian rebels and not al Qaeda that set the bombs off...

Here's a little tip for those of you who use your cell phones exclusively; in an emergency, more than likely you will not be able to get through to anyone. Either find a payphone or purchase one of those prepaid phone cards for use in an emergency. For some reason, the toll free numbers on the prepaid phone cards can be accessed during emergencies (during the earthquake of 2002 in Seattle I used a prepaid phone card and got through where a lot of the people with cellphones couldn't get through).

Miulang

[Menehune Man]

People's convictions strengthen or change after terrorist attacks. I was in Australia just before and then when the Bali incident happened. Many Australians were against the American interventions in Afganistan. Saying just to leave "them" alone. Then after the Australians were killed and hurt in Bali it changed to "Let's go get them!" I don't know how the Madrid incident has affected the majority of their population. And we'll see now what happens after the dust settles in London. To tell you the truth about myself... I'm a hippie with a haircut, wishing for peace-love-and... I'm also a Christian who thinks that "To turn the other cheek" is a good way to try and live. I wonder if it can truly be done? :confused:

[U'ilani]

Well, we've tried it both ways (turned the other cheek and all-out war), but neither method will stop this barbarism. We need a Gandhi of Islam:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KOCQEOXHZMBDZQFIQMFCM54AVCBQ YJVC?xml=/opinion/2005/07/09/do09.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/07/09/ixop.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=25278 (http://)

[Palolo Joe]

Now the AP is reporting there was no advance warning about the attack given to the Israelis:

http://news.findlaw.com/ap/i/631/07-07-2005/a730000e3500ec3d.html

And it seems Al-Qaeda was behind this, not a bunch of "pissed off Parisians" as previously mentioned:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm

[kimo55]

I'm also a Christian who thinks that "To turn the other cheek" is a good way to try and live. I wonder if it can truly be done? :


Oh, I dunno, I think we can bend just this once and make a scourge of cords, and napalm, and nuclear weapons and drive the infidels from the earth as this dude shows us in this here parable:

http://tinyurl.com/7fb38

[kimo55]

I'm also a Christian who thinks that "To turn the other cheek" is a good way to try and live. I wonder if it can truly be done? :confused:


No, but it can falsely be done. Will that do?
lissen. We are dealing with people who want to kill white people. Like you. And your loved ones.
Ya wanna be led by biblical teachings?

"The principle of justice that requires punishment equal in kind to the offense (not greater than the offense, as was frequently given in ancient times). Thus, if someone puts out another's eye, one of the offender's eyes should be put out. The principle is stated in the Book of Exodus as “Thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand,..."

[kimo55]

People's convictions strengthen or change after terrorist attacks. I'm...a Christian who thinks that "To turn the other cheek" is a good way to try and live.

...and you assume adhereing to that philosophy would prove to be a good way to try and stay alive?
It doesn't.
IF.... a sentence of death was a decent punishment for lying, and it's good enuff for the christian god, what would you say is proportionate punishment to the acts of mass slaughter of innocents abroad and here "at home", by terrorists?


God killed individuals because they engaged in various transgressions in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).

and...for lying about Church donations: Acts 5:1 to 11 describes how a couple, Ananias and Sapphira... sold some piece of real estate. They gave part of the money to the apostles, claiming it was the full proceeds from the sale. Peter saw their act as lying to the Holy Ghost. God killed Ananias on the spot. Three hours later, Sapphira repeated the lie to Peter. He cursed her and God killed her immediately. Members of the church were understandably terrified, and this was the intended effect. Don't fut around, oddawise, you goin' maki die dead.

[newroots]

i think it was a bunch of english kids who did the bombing ... probably mad at the government and wanted to over throw it. cuz if al quaida did it .. they would have done a more drastic job , this was obviously amatuer. hopefully their scared shitless. but ...english governments arent looking for these anarchists , their looking for arabs. al quaida dumb fucks probably said they did the bombings cuz they were missing for a while and wanted to let people know their still around.

[newroots]

you cant turn the other cheek to terrorists . cuz their shoot your face. its probably not a good idea to fight terrorism with terrorism. buuuuuT first step would be to get rid of those arab turban face covered fucks. than work with governments for peace. but president bush doesnt show alot of respect for other governments , hes too arrogant. if he was a bit more humble and understanding people would probably support him more , especially the middle east.

[newroots]

in old hebrew commandments it says ....... thou shall not kill unless going to be killed , or something like that. basically it means killing is justified if your life is in serious danger. the christian god , is god. it hasnt been around for just 2000 years , its been around since the old testament.

religious talk like this ... isnt permitted in the bible. read timothy chapters 2 and 3. 'remind people of these things and charge them before god to stop disputing about words. this serves no useful purpose since it harms those who listen'

but anyway , the ten commandments shaped society in a big way. it seems like today were doing everything jesus or god doesnt allow. and the result is the world today. sin brings dispair. everything the only thing thats wrong with the world is sin i.e. greed , murder , sloth , pride , avrice , revenge.. etc.

[Miulang]

Now the AP is reporting there was no advance warning about the attack given to the Israelis:

http://news.findlaw.com/ap/i/631/07-07-2005/a730000e3500ec3d.html

And it seems Al-Qaeda was behind this, not a bunch of "pissed off Parisians" as previously mentioned:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm
Nobody wants to attribute the massacre in London to anyone yet because MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI have just started their investigations. And the "pissed off Parisians" was a joke, in case anybody really believed I was serious about it. :rolleyes: I just thought it was a very aliterative phrase.

Miulang

[Miulang]

No one seems to know who the purported perpetrators (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9430.htm) of the London subway bombings is, but here is one theory of who they are and why they are attacking.

"...Most probably, then, this group consists of a small (and previously obscure) expatriate Muslim network somewhere in continental Europe, which has decided to announce its allegiance to Qaida al-Jihad. It is highly unlikely that al-Qaida itself retains enough command and control to plan or order such operations. They could have found many cues in al-Qaida literature, however, that London should be attacked. ..."

"...The communiqué on the London bombing is unusual in appealing both to the Muslim community and to the "community of Arabism." "Urubah," or Arabism, is a secular nationalist ideal. The diction suggests that the bombers are from a younger generation of activists who have not lived in non-Arab Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Afghanistan, and think of Arabism and Islam as overlapping rather than alternatives to one another. The text makes relatively few references to religion, reading more as a statement of Muslim nationalism than of piety.

In accordance with al-Zawahiri's focus on violence as the answer to the "marauding" of occupying non-Muslim armies in Muslim lands, the statement condemns what it calls "massacres" by "Zionist" British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of them Muslim lands under Western military occupation (and, it is implied, similar in this regard to Gaza and the West Bank under Israeli control). These bombings, it says, are a form of revenge for these alleged predations. The language of revenge recalls tribal feuds rather than Islamic values.

The terrorists refer to the bombings, which they say they carefully planned over a long period, as a "blessed raid." They are recalling the struggle between the wealthy, pagan trading entrepot, Mecca, and the beleaguered, persecuted Muslim community in Medina in early seventh century west Arabia. The Muslims around the Prophet Mohammed responded to the Meccan determination to wipe them out by raiding the caravans of their wealthy rivals, depriving them of their profits and gradually strangling them. The victorious Muslims, having cut the idol-worshipping Meccan merchants off, marched into the city in 630. Al-Qaida teaches its acolytes that great Western metropolises such as New York and London are the Meccas of this age, centers of paganism, immorality and massive wealth, from which plundering expeditions are launched against hapless, pious Muslims. This symbology helps explain why the City of London subway stops were especially targeted, since it is the economic center of London. A "raid" such as the Muslim bombings is considered not just a military action but also a religious ritual. ..."

Miulang

P.S. for anyone who cares, here's the full text of the posting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm) claiming responsibility for the bombings.

[Menehune Man]

I've read the different news links and the Phinehas brotherhood link (Whoa). So... Guess what we need is a better inteligence collecting agency in order to know who to take out and where they are. It's just too messy the way we're attacking the problem now. Too many innocents along side too many misses of the real quarry. And we know that the other side has no plans to stop. Even if or when we cannot present any kind of defense they'll just finish us off. So what're we to do? The ideals of hippiedom, as much as I wish they did, just don't work in this world. The Old Testament is full of conquer and pillage to achieve your goals. Whereas in The New Testament, the teachings of Jesus portray helping or loving your neighbor even when they're not being lovable. But even Jesus stood up and sometimes violently to uphold the morals that He believed in. So again "What're we to do?" Hoping for peace doesn't do "it" for me anymore.

[Palolo Joe]

P.S. for anyone who cares, here's the full text of the posting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm) claiming responsibility for the bombings. Thanks for the repost of the link that I already wrote about in this very thread...

[Miulang]

You'll need FLASH in order to see the following map, but it's a good one that shows how many terrorist incidents (http://windsofchange.net/flashplayer.php?media=alqaeda&w=640&h=480) (some directly attributable to al Qaeda and others not) that have happened up to the incident in London (but not including the one in Israel that happened today) since Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda declared war on the western world in 1998.

It's interesting because the current theory is that bin Laden is no longer in charge of the organization and that now it's made up of splinter groups of jihadists who, in our parlance, are "loose cannons".

Reports out of London today indicate that it is possible that suicide bombers were the cause of all 4 of the explosions in London; if that's the case, then there's no way any nation can protect itself from these attacks. The only hope is to remove western troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. We don't have anything to lose (except to save the lives of innocent citizens in this country and our occupying troops) by choosing this option. If there are explosions soon in Italy and Denmark, two of the "coalition of the willing", it will be because of their occupation of Iraq.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Despite the commonly held belief in this country that the reason suicide bombers attack is because of their fundamentalist beliefs, this interview of Robert Pape, considered to be the foremost American authority on terrorism, that appears in the American Conservative (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9453.htm) says something completely different.

The reason why suicide bombers attack, according to Pape, is because they are striking out against the occupiers of territories they believe they own: hence the problems in Israel from the Palestinean terrorists, in London and Madrid because of the British and Spanish involvement in the occupation of Iraq, etc.

"...The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign—over 95 percent of all the incidents—has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw....

"...Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us.

Since 1990, the United States has stationed tens of thousands of ground troops on the Arabian Peninsula, and that is the main mobilization appeal of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. People who make the argument that it is a good thing to have them attacking us over there are missing that suicide terrorism is not a supply-limited phenomenon where there are just a few hundred around the world willing to do it because they are religious fanatics. It is a demand-driven phenomenon. That is, it is driven by the presence of foreign forces on the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. The operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorism and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life..."

As long as we persist in our empiric efforts to spread our brand of democracy through occupation, we will always be vulnerable to attack at home. We don't have the know how or adequate numbers of troops to kill off every single possible suicide bomber in Iraq and Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Russia and every other part of the world. We need to do a better job of protecting ourselves on our own turf.

Miulang

[Palolo Joe]

Reports out of London todayLinks? Evidence to support your position?

I've heard reports that there were timers used in all the bombs. You want the URLs of where I saw it? Nah.

[Miulang]

Links? Evidence to support your position?

I've heard reports that there were timers used in all the bombs. You want the URLs of where I saw it? Nah.
You want links (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/071305J.shtml)? Here ya go...and it's just a start...what makes it worse is the bombers are suspected of being British citizens of Pakistani decent. Here's another link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050713/wl_uk_afp/britainattackschrono_050713133601). And another (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/13/london.blair/index.html).

Miulang

[Menehune Man]

Everyone's beliefs in what's right runs strong within each of us. Most people do what in their eyes is the correct thing to do at that time. The bombers believed so and the occupying forces in Iraq / Afganistan believe so too. "So how to find the common ground, where all are blessed and peace is found."

[Miulang]

I hope it doesn't come to pass, but from everything I've been reading since the London suicide bombings seems to indicate that besides Italy and Denmark, suicide bombers could strike somewhere in this country, too, and we really have no defense against it, until AFTER it happens, all because of our illegal occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

According to Robert Pape, who I cited earlier, the reason why suicide bombers attack is not out of religious fervor, but because of the notion that they want to hurt people from countries who are occupying their homelands.

In today's news from London, they identified 3 of the 4 suicide bombers as being British-born Pakistanis, and the fourth suspect is now believed to be Jamaican. They also believe that the mastermind of the whole plot left Britain the day before the bombings, destination unknown.

Ironic that this morning Michael Chertoff, the head of Homeland Security, announced plans to dramatically revamp his agency. It may be a little too late, and with too few resources available.

So, where would a sleeper cell of suicide bombers most likely attack? A large city, or a medium sized one? And would they be American, as in the OK City bombing of the Murrah Federal Bldg? I remember the outrage and the immediate assumption that "they" must be Islamic terrorists. I remember the hate crimes committed against peace-loving Muslim Americans just because they believed in the Koran and not the Bible.

The enemy may look exactly the same as everyone else in your community. Would you turn your next door neighbor in to authorities if they did anything suspicious? And if we let this paranoia become epidemic, the citizens of this country would find most of their freedoms stripped away, and we will be living in an armed camp...just like Israel (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1686702,00.html).

"...Israel is the only state on earth that has ever got near successfully countering the onslaught of suicide bombers but only at a terrible cost.

By most normal standards Israel has turned itself into a modern day Sparta where 50 per cent of the population is armed at all times and where every bus stop, every restaurant, every public building has its own security guard who ruthlessly checks handbags and warily eyes every suspicious character.

Beyond the human guards is an army of soldiers who ring every major Israeli city and who can cordon off every area within seconds...." And even those precautions didn't stop the suicide bomber in a marketplace in Israel a few days ago...


Miulang

P.S. Some things to look for in a suspected suicide bomber: wearing bulky coats or jackets, especially when the weather doesn't call for wearing one (could be concealing a bomb taped to his body), carrying bulky backpacks in unusual places, and shortly before blowing himself up and everyone in his vicinity, he goes into a zombie-like trance... :eek:

[1stwahine]

Sadly, it has happened again in London. They also caught a suspect near the Prime Minister's home. Citizens starts to say they don't want to use the subways. My prayers and thoughts are for those there today!

Auntie Lynn

[Glen Miyashiro]

From the sound of it, it was a pretty pathetic bombing attempt. Maybe this was a copycat instead of the Real Thing.

[Miulang]

From the sound of it, it was a pretty pathetic bombing attempt. Maybe this was a copycat instead of the Real Thing.
That's what I'm thinking too (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-07-21T174946Z_01_N21557932_RTRIDST_0_INTERNATIONAL-SECURITY-BRITAIN-COPY-DC.XML). It sounds like whoever built the bombs couldn't even wire the things correctly...some news outlets said witnesses said they smelled something sulfurous (rotten egg) which sounds like the detonator (the detcord) burning and not the bombs themselves.

It could very well be a conspiracy (love those!) by Tony Blair to get Parliament to enact stricter "Patriot Act" type policies on his country...and it sure does tie in nicely with the sunsetting of the US Patriot Act at the end of this year, doesn't it?

Miulang

[kimo55]

From the sound of it, it was a pretty pathetic bombing attempt. Maybe this was a copycat instead of the Real Thing.
a copycat can and will do as much damage as "the real thing"

[Moto]

The Terrorists bought their explosives the same way the US would, they went to the lowest bidder. The rest is history.