Racetracks, Motorsports, and Politics

[Miulang]

The President of Hawai'i Raceway Park is asking the Legislature for $50 million in tax credits (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Feb/22/ln/ln12p.html) to build a new raceway at Kalaeloa to replace the current raceway which is on Campbell Industrial Land and whose lease expires next year.

I love how these special interest groups can lobby to get special exemptions from paying their fair share of taxes, and yet you can't find enough funding to pay for better substitute teachers' salaries!

Up here in Washington, NASCAR wanted to build a new track too and went to some communities for assistance. Even though the pro-NASCAR lobby was strong (we have "red" counties amidst a "blue" state), even they had to admit what NASCAR wanted in terms of a financial deal was something they weren't willing to fund.

Our major sports teams all have new facilities, partly funded through City and County taxes, and yet the majority of citizens have probably never gone to a Mariners or Seahawks game...mostly because they can't afford the high ticket prices! It's kind of ironic...I guess it would also help if we had winning teams, too! ;)

Miulang

[kilikopela]

Well...lots have been going on since this was posted.

really...Oahu NEEDS a new race facility. The existing grounds proved unsafe by the the EPA and those who used it.

If you like to read, you can vist www.hawaiitalks.net, www.forumshawaii.net and, www.paradisecruisers.com on what's been going on. there's a lot of catching up on this.

In a nutshell, we have only one bill standing, and it's in the process of being view in Financing. One of them had been killed due to the influence of the SORT group who've been lobbying Hanabusa to hear them out. SORT is a group that roughly 10% of the race community, all of them dirt track racers who dislike Mike Oakland, the very person that evicted them from the EPA mandated dirt track, and also because they have not paid their rent on that part of the track for several months before being evicted. They have a louder voice than those who're supporting the new facility because they want to use the existing grounds and have the State condemn the land, also having the C&C make the needed cleanup mandated by the EPA, and all the necessary needs to repair the existing facilities and utilities to comply to new standards by the LUO.

Giving tax credit is at no cost to the State...fixing a run down track and making it a state project...it's going to cost the State lots.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Giving tax credit is at no cost to the State...fixing a run down track and making it a state project...it's going to cost the State lots.No... giving a tax credit still costs the State money, in the form of taxes that it would otherwise be collecting.

[kilikopela]

No... giving a tax credit still costs the State money, in the form of taxes that it would otherwise be collecting.

I dont know how that really works...but I'll understand what I can. you mean to say that whenver someone donates their car to the kidney foundation for tax credit, the state is losing money? what would cost more to the state? condemning the land, fixing the EPA mandates and making the needed repairs and increasing saftey issues regarding the existing grounds? I would think it would cost more to the state to fix that facility.

[Glen Miyashiro]

I dont know how that really works...but I'll understand what I can. you mean to say that whenver someone donates their car to the kidney foundation for tax credit, the state is losing money?Yup. That's exactly what happens.

what would cost more to the state? condemning the land, fixing the EPA mandates and making the needed repairs and increasing saftey issues regarding the existing grounds? I would think it would cost more to the state to fix that facility.See, now that's a different question, and a fair one to discuss. What would cost more?

Another question, which is in my mind even more important, is whether it's worth spending state money to build (or otherwise encourage) a race track. If it were me, I'd say No.

[kilikopela]

about the kidney thing, why is it still ongoing to in the state? and how does tax credit hurt the state's financing?

about the costs of saving the existing track, I dont have any estimates, though I vaguely remember about the existing track having an estimate of $10M in EPA mandates, WOW...if that's true...that's a lot. I doubt any tax payer would want to hear that the City will be paying over $10M in EPA madates, not even the supporting motorsports enthusiasts. The State has bigger pot holes to fill (pun intended). That's not including the ammount needed to condemn or buy the land (however that works?).. that's a gruelling process that could take too long for the racers oh Oahu, again...that's not included the safety measure needed to make an up to date track facility...if you've been to motorsports on the mainland, and come back to Oahu...you'll see and feel how out dated and unsafe the existing track is. People asked..."whats the difference between then and now?" my answer simply is that we dont have any other choices...so we were left with just that track.

Also, the existing land is slated to be rezoned as industrial land, like it's neighboring parcels - Group by association if you call it. There are also multiple projects that will be done in West Oahu, there's a proposed retail area, UH West Oahu, Ko Olina expansion...they might say something about the existing track, and call in the EPA again and have them survey the neighboring business, and possibly make further restrictions. Alltogether, we don't really know whats going on.

You and I agree that the State should have NOTHING to do with FUNDING any race track. I dont agree with you about not ENCOURAGING one at all, especially one that will offer new business to our State.

[Glen Miyashiro]

about the kidney thing, why is it still ongoing to in the state? and how does tax credit hurt the state's financing?Making a donation to charity gives you a tax credit in the amount that you have donated. If I donate $100 to a charity, I can deduct that $100 from my taxable income for that year. Let's assume that my overall tax rate is, oh, 30%. That means that The Government gets $30 less in taxes from me than they would have gotten if I hadn't made that donation. So the government is out $30, the charity gets $100, and I am out $100 but don't have to pay $30 so I'm actually out a net $70. This is still ongoing because we as a people decided a long time ago that charitable deductions were a Good Idea overall because they gave people an incentive to donate to worthy causes.

You and I agree that the State should have NOTHING to do with FUNDING any race track. I dont agree with you about not ENCOURAGING one at all, especially one that will offer new business to our State.Yup. That's about it.

[kilikopela]

Please bare with me, the whole taxing thing is something of a different language to me

The Government gets $30 less in taxes from me than they would have gotten if I hadn't made that donation. So the government is out $30 to me, that doesnt explain how the government is dishing out money...it's just money the government didnt get.
the charity gets $100,and I am out $100that would be at your own free will.
but don't have to pay $30nor do you get $30 back - the credit?
so I'm actually out a net $70So where did the $70 go?

my basic understanding was that, tax credit is like a cushion. Say I made a donation as well $100 to any given one. I do my taxes and I owe $100, but the credit soaks that...now I dont owe anything...which I think is pretty relative to what you're saying...I think that is speaking on a individual sense - what about me? Sorry...I'm trying my hardest to understand the tax thing.

Also, why dont you think that the State should encourage a party to build a new race facility, even if it's privately funded?

[pzarquon]

I'm not following this too closely, but I have friends who are/were regulars at the track. From what I've read, this Oakland fellow is a piece of work, but ultimately if dirt track racers would rather see a possible new facility torpedoed completely if they're not accommodated ("If we can't race, no one can!"), then I won't be too sympathetic if we end up without one.

Of course, ultimately, the rest of us pay for the selfishness, as a few boneheaded racers of all stripes take to public streets or property to get their jollies.

I think if "we" can build a gazillion concrete skate parks for teenagers, a case can be made for a decent motorsports facility. But if the government won't do it, private companies and investors are your best bet. No one has any idea exactly what Oakland has in mind, which is a big problem, but I'd settle for a new, but imperfect, track than attempts to condemn land and save the deteriorating track we had.

[kilikopela]

true...and I agree with what you're saying. The dirt track racers organized a groupe called Save Oahu's Race Tracks (SORT). They have made allegations and I've even called their bluff on a few occaisions when they suggested that I call DHHL regarding a 5 year "commitment" made by the PASHA group. I called DHHL's Kalaeloa management and they basically told me that, given enough notice..they can move the PASHA group out from Kalaeloa Parcel 9 - the proposed location. Anyway...they continue to attack Mike Oakland - a feud started because the dirt track was taken away their previlages of using the existing dirt track because it was mandated by the EPA and because they have not been paying their rent for several months. If you were a landlord, and your tennant has not payed their rent, how would you deal with it? Yes, at the time...the stock car track was the only place they had, still is...and they want it back. They feedback about the proposed track is that they dont see any provisions to them, they failed to see what a stock car track is, especially when it was clear as day that at stock car track was included in Oaklands design...in a nutshell...it's a dirt track, so Mike Oakland had the dirt racers, very much in mind. They have influenced Senator Colleen Hanabusa, HEAVILY, into killing the HB994 bill. A majority of the dirt track racers reside in Waianae - Hanabusa's district. The SORT group are really not bad people, and they know what they're fighting for...but at the State's expense. Is that fair to the rest of the tax paying community? As a tax payer...the City & County better cater to all the racers needs...not just the dirt track racers.

On the other side of the ring, there's Mike Oakland, his group of unnamed investors, and everyone that supports him, myself included. Frankly, I dont know the importance of identifying the investors or the person who owns the existing track's grounds. Should I care? I'm not too sure, and as close as I am to Oakland, I dont even know who they are. I just want a good, new, modern day race track. A privately funded track is the way to go, it's good for the economy because it will bring in new business to Hawaii, and good for us...simpley because Mike Oakland said we deserve a new race track.

[Glen Miyashiro]

my basic understanding was that, tax credit is like a cushion. Say I made a donation as well $100 to any given one. I do my taxes and I owe $100, but the credit soaks that...now I dont owe anything...which I think is pretty relative to what you're saying...I think that is speaking on a individual sense - what about me? Sorry...I'm trying my hardest to understand the tax thing.ACK! Sorry, sorry, you're right. I got tax credits mixed up with tax deductions. My earlier example was for deductions, not credits. Yeah, the way tax credits work is that whatever you owe on your tax bill, they'll knock off the amount of your credit from your tax bill. Hmmm... so what if you don't owe anything, and you're actually expecting a tax refund check? If you get a tax credit, does that add to your tax refund, or does it only count if you owe something?

Also, why dont you think that the State should encourage a party to build a new race facility, even if it's privately funded?Well, because I don't like racing and I don't think it's something that should be publicly encouraged. Period.

[kilikopela]

so what if you don't owe anything, and you're actually expecting a tax refund check? If you get a tax credit, does that add to your tax refund, or does it only count if you owe something?
I dont expect a refund because I know that credit basically zeroed out what I would owe. If I owed less, there would be left over credit that I could use during the next tax season...yippie. it's like going to a store, and their sales agreement says that there will be no refund...only credit. So it's something of that sort, to my understanding.
Well, because I don't like racing and I don't think it's something that should be publicly encouraged. Period.Fair enough.

So, back to my original question, would it cost anything to the State in regards to tax credit bill for the proposed facility, now that we have a better understanding on what tax credit is?

[ArchangelX]

REMINDER!!!

It's that time again...to show the legislative branch that Oahu motorsports enthusiasts matter! That we have a say!

http://www.raceeventshawaii.com/Assets/Images/capitolrally.jpg

The Capitol Rally is still on, but has been changed to April 9th from 11AM till 1PM @ the Hawaii State Capitol. Set up time will be 10AM for a limited number of vehicles that have been pre-chosen. We're asking the rest of us to participate by cruising around the state capitol in a friendly and orderly manner, basically the same thing as last year's huge event:

2005 State Capitol Cruise (http://www.raceeventshawaii.com/Content/Race%20Events%20Hawaii/State%20Capitol%20Cruise/State_Capitol_Cruise_Article.htm)

For those of you that attended last year, you know it was a huge success, and that we had an overwhelming turnout. Let's do it again! Shoe polish your supportive messages on your windshields, make some banners or signs for the press at the rally, bring out your hottest and quickest rides, be it four wheels or two, and help to keep motorsports alive on Oahu.

The entire event will involve promoting the fact that we as motorsports enthusiasts support highway safety...and that means keeping it on the track. Considering that we'll soon be losing our track, this naturally ties in with the support for the new world class facility along with keeping the current track open until the new track is completed.

For most of us on this forum, motorsports is a big chunk of our life, and something we do for the enjoyment we derive from it. We are friends, we are family, and we need to show the state legislature that we matter and that we are important.

Last year was highly successful...let's blow them away by doing it again! :D

Announcement!

Directly after the rally, @ 2PM, a large majority of the supporters for the World Class Facility will be heading down to Dave & Busters located in the Ward Entertainment Center. We're inviting everyone to join us as we'll be hanging out to talk story, and touch base with everyone that's pushing for this facility. If you have questions, that would be a great time to ask, otherwise, we just want everybody to get together, have a good time, and celebrate motorsports on Oahu.

We'd love to get the chance to get know everyone that supports the WCF...so come on down, have a drink, play some games, and just have a good time. If enough people turn up, we'll most likely have the third floor opened up for us. If you have any questions or concerns, give me a yell at webmaster@hawaiitalks.net

I know I'll be there...I hope to see you there as well.

Thanks!

[ArchangelX]

Here's the planned cruised route:

http://www.hawaiitalks.net/photopost/data/500/capitolcruise.jpg

[poinographer]

This would be much more effective on a day when the legislators are actually in the building...

Good luck.

[kilikopela]

hey man...stop following me! :P
and poino does have a point.

[1stwahine]

This would be much more effective on a day when the legislators are actually in the building...


Now, who is responsible for making the decision when they were going to be out? :confused:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/1stwahine/w-8.gif

Auntie pUpUle

[zztype]

They decided to cruise on Sunday. Sunday morning, about 10-12 is the best time to do something like that if you want to be on TV. On Sundays, the news crews are all starving for something interesting to put on the 6 o'clock news.

If what you are doing is really visual, even marginally interesting, you'll get on the TV news.

But depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to be on TV, perfect timing. If you want to impress legislators, not too good. Sunday. They stay home doing Sunday stuffs. They might see you on the 6 o'clock news cruising around the Capitol.

I have been an advocate of a state-owned and run NASCAR-style track out at Barber's Point forever. However, those who wish to back Mike Oakland's project need to know that there is plenty of politics going back decades surrounding HRP and the "new track."

That's the reason the idea doesn't have instant wide support from politicos. Check out some of the stuff chronicled by Ian Lind...that project has "history."

http://www.ilind.net

http://www.ilind.net/misc%20/racetrack/clips1995.html

Blaine

[Miulang]

NASCAR has been trying for several years to find a suitable site for a race track here in the Puget Sound area, too. Several towns have stepped forward and started their due diligence; their immediate attraction to hosting a track is the possibility that huge numbers of race fans would bring revenue to their towns. But upon crunching the numbers, they realized that it would take YEARS before they would see any profit from such an enterprise because NASCAR put so many stipulations on a contract, so NASCAR continues its search.

Miulang

[poinographer]

NASCAR, NHRA and the (two) Indy series would be loathe to transport all their cars and equipment to Hawaii by air. That's why the teams all have those pimped out tractor-trailers transporting everything each week by land. So, my hunch is that they would probably insist on some sort of airfreight subsidy to lure them to any new track in Hawaii.

I'm not sure how the truly global series (F1, MotoGP, etc) do it, but their budgets are WAY bigger than those North America-based series. They may well shake down the host communities, too.

FWIW, I'd love to see MotoGP coming to Hawaii every season... and to have the track to play on the rest of the year. But I don't necessarily think taxpayers need to make that dream happen.

[kilikopela]

NASCAR has been trying for several years to find a suitable site for a race track here in the Puget Sound area, too. Several towns have stepped forward and started their due diligence; their immediate attraction to hosting a track is the possibility that huge numbers of race fans would bring revenue to their towns. But upon crunching the numbers, they realized that it would take YEARS before they would see any profit from such an enterprise because NASCAR put so many stipulations on a contract, so NASCAR continues its search.

Miulang
That's too close minded. The track is not slated to be used by just NASCAR...it's meant to appeal towards many organizations as poino pointed out. If the track was not to be used during seasonal use, it would be most likely looked upon at testing grounds. Many European racing teams both cars and bikes fly their equipment out to places like spain, austrailia, england, china, japan for testing. If you have experienced F1 in Australia, or MotoGP in spain, World Super Bike in England, or even the Japan Grand Touring Championships in Japan...then you would know what I'm talking about. although Hawaii on that side of the geographic plain...Hawaii is also one of the european people most favorite place to go...what more with a facility that can hold up to their standards. I know it's optimism...but you cant rule out that "it could happen" But that's just the euro market to highly supports that global scene...we especially do not want to forget our american ambasadors to the sport. NASCAR is just a small part of the whole community..you add in Champ Car, Indy Car, FIA, and AMA to the picture...you'll see why NASCAR is just a "part of the equation". Everyone here in the legislature in only hearing about NASCAR for some reason....but the reason the track is proposed is to cater to all...and especially towards the local people of Oahu and neighbor islands. If we can attract the many organizations of the world, with what is proposed at a "World Class Facility"...it would more than benefit Hawaii by adding us to the map of their motosports, but be a big part in the economic growth, a highly related issue towards tourism. I could be very well just the economic spike we need. The old track at HRP was, is, will, never be capable of that.l

[Miulang]

That's too close minded. The track is not slated to be used by just NASCAR...it's meant to appeal towards many organizations as poino pointed out. If the track was not to be used during seasonal use, it would be most likely looked upon at testing grounds. Many European racing teams both cars and bikes fly their equipment out to places like spain, austrailia, england, china, japan for testing. If you have experienced F1 in Australia, or MotoGP in spain, World Super Bike in England, or even the Japan Grand Touring Championships in Japan...then you would know what I'm talking about. although Hawaii on that side of the geographic plain...Hawaii is also one of the european people most favorite place to go...what more with a facility that can hold up to their standards. I know it's optimism...but you cant rule out that "it could happen" But that's just the euro market to highly supports that global scene...we especially do not want to forget our american ambasadors to the sport. NASCAR is just a small part of the whole community..you add in Champ Car, Indy Car, FIA, and AMA to the picture...you'll see why NASCAR is just a "part of the equation". Everyone here in the legislature in only hearing about NASCAR for some reason....but the reason the track is proposed is to cater to all...and especially towards the local people of Oahu and neighbor islands. If we can attract the many organizations of the world, with what is proposed at a "World Class Facility"...it would more than benefit Hawaii by adding us to the map of their motosports, but be a big part in the economic growth, a highly related issue towards tourism. I could be very well just the economic spike we need. The old track at HRP was, is, will, never be capable of that.l
All that's lovely, but I think the State has more pressing priorities like the homeless, affordable housing, etc. to tackle before it should consider subsidizing something that only would appeal to a limited number of people. Now if the motorsports enthusiasts want to build a track using private money WITHOUT any State or local subsidies, I'd be all for it!

Miulang

[Konaguy]

I take the simplistic view on this. Would rather have these folks racing
on the public streets and freeways or in a controlled environment ?
I for one would prefer the latter. As if there is no legitimate place to
go you'll be seeing more of these folks illegally racing on the freeways etc.
Which will lead to more catastrophic accidents which we see repeatedly
over and over again.

So in a way, yes it doesn't rate as high as affordable housing.homelessness etc.
But taking into account there isn't any other place to go for these folks, it
should concern all of us that we'll be seeing more of these folks illegally racing
now on public streets,roads,freeways.

[mel]

The key to this whole issue is money. Follow the money... and more specifically they want taxpayer money to subsidize the new racetrack or a tax break (depending on the bill that is sitll alive, if any)..... Just like everything else that goes on in the legislature.... it all comes down to trying to allocate precious few taxpayer money to one cause, organization or another.

Just remember, the taxpayers are not an endless source of revenue for government. No New Taxes!

[kilikopela]

I hope all of you are not making the mistake of misunderstanding what tax credit is vs what tax deduction is, like Glen Miyashiro. The proposal of the bill is to give tax credit, not award tax deductions to the investors of the proposed new race track. The only peoples money that will be spent is the investors, none of the state tax payers as implied by having tax deductions.

as stated in the other thread that MiuLang started last year in Feb regarding the track...I wrote that, the State has prospected condemning the existing land of the HRP grounds, hmm...thats tax payers money there. then there's the EPA mandates that need to be clarified...thats tax payers money there too. and there's the needed safety improvements that the existing track needs to make it an up to date facility...yah..that's tax payers money there too. so what do you prefer the state to do? Side the people that that want the state to buyout a busted up has been track only to use tax payers money in the process, or pass the bill to award tax credit (not deductions) to the proposed track investors - those are your only two choices.

Colliers have forecasted the economic and real estate growth of Kapolei, and they made clearly that saving the existing race track is NOT feasible with growing industries using that area. It doesnt make sense that every parcel around the existing track is zoned at Industrial, and that the track's parcel is zoned agricultural..to keep in ag-land. the New owner is likely to take care of the EPA mandates to (knowingly the owner knew of them before buying out the land from James Campbell Estates) to start up whatever they want. Then the State would have no real concrete reason why they should condemn the land...and that would be a costly and timely process..again, tax payers money there too.

[mel]

So like the Ko Olina tax credit that passed a few years ago, this is another specialized tax credit proposal.

SB 1734 HD1 (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessioncurrent/bills/sb1734_hd1_.htm)

There is a WMV CD circulating from the new racetrack supporters. Is that video available online?

[kilikopela]

I'm not too aware of th Ko Olina tax credit, but I do know my office is working on their projects :) On the subject about the Ko Olina tax credit, here's some good reading on Colleen Hanabusa, the supporter of the Ko Olina tax credit.She is the very one that killed the bill (HB994) in support of the racepark tax credit.
http://www.hawaiitalks.net/showpost.php?p=2632&postcount=1

Here's the video:
http://www.superlapseries.com/assets/Video/HRPPresentation.wmv

here's a fact sheet:
http://www.raceeventshawaii.com/Assets/Images/FACTSsmall.jpg

[kilikopela]

I have been an advocate of a state-owned and run NASCAR-style track out at Barber's Point forever. However, those who wish to back Mike Oakland's project need to know that there is plenty of politics going back decades surrounding HRP and the "new track."
thanks for the links, I was a freshman in highschool in '91. All I cared about was baseball, football, and girls. I'm now 28...that makes me feel old :o sorry if offends any of you :o :p

[Miulang]

Hooo boy. Out comes the opala. The chief proponent of the bill to allow a tax credit for building a new raceway just withdrew (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060412/NEWS01/604120342/1001) the measure "because of potential conflicts of interest". Um, why did this bill get as far as it did before this conflict was discovered? Who's sleeping at the wheel? Why wasn't there more due diligence on the part of the committees that allowed the bill into the Senate and House? Love the way the killing of the measure was described :
"..."For Representative Chang's reputation and for the institution of the Legislature, we thought that it would be best to nip it in the bud and table the measure"...just the old boy network trying to protect its own, which is disgusting. :mad:

If the voters of Hawai'i want a replacement for Hawai'i Raceway Park, let them decide that on its own merits rather than having to rely on "sweetheart deals" that could benefit certain people who are in a position to approve the funding.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Hooo boy. Out comes the opala. The chief proponent of the bill to allow a tax credit for building a new raceway just withdrew (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060412/NEWS01/604120342/1001) the measure "because of potential conflicts of interest". Um, why did this bill get as far as it did before this conflict was revealed? Who's sleeping at the wheel? Why wasn't there more due diligence on the part of the committees that allowed the bill into the Senate and House? Love the way the tabling of the measure was described :
"..."For Representative Chang's reputation and for the institution of the Legislature, we thought that it would be best to nip it in the bud and table the measure"...just the old boy network trying to protect its own, which is disgusting.

If the voters of Hawai'i want a replacement for Hawai'i Raceway Park, let them decide that on its own merits rather than having to rely on "sweetheart deals" that could benefit certain people who are in a position to approve the funding.

Miulang

[Glen Miyashiro]

Huh. An interesting bit that I hadn't connected is that Mike Oakland is Sen. Suzanne Chun Oakland's father-in-law. Something to remember. I always thought she was a good egg but I'm not so sure about this particular family connection.

[LikaNui]

That same article includes this:
"But after The Advertiser raised questions about Chang's potential conflict, he spoke with House leaders, who quickly decided in a closed-door caucus to table the bill rather than risk embarrassment."
So it was just tabled, and not killed completely? Interesting.
But far more interesting -- and maddening -- is this:
"There are no conflict-of-interest rules for lawmakers in state ethics law. The law prohibits lawmakers from using their offices to give unwarranted privileges but work on bills, resolutions or other official duties is exempt. The House does have a code of conduct that cautions lawmakers against using the prestige of their offices to advance the private interests of themselves or others."
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[poinographer]

"tabling" (actually called "recommittal") at this stage of the Lege kills that particular bill.

That doesn't mean there are no other bills where they could tuck this scheme in...

[Miulang]

Well, why the hecuba don't the voters of Hawai'i insist that there be a referendum to institute some sort of conflict of interest rules for the people who are passing the laws of the State? Wouldn't that be the first question to ask? If the Legislature truly wants to eliminate embarrassment, the first thing it should do is recognize that as a body of public figures, they WILL and MUST be held to a higher standard of moral conduct than ordinary mortals. One sure sign of a "backwater" government is one that allows the foxes to raid the henhouse. Oh wait. You don't have the Constitutional power to have referendums, either, do you? :eek:

Miulang

[kilikopela]

His daughter-in-law pulled out of Mike Oaklands campaign somehow, sometime last year. I dont know exactly how she wasnt involved. I'll post it up when I find it.

[kilikopela]

Hooo boy. Out comes the opala. The chief proponent of the bill to allow a tax credit for building a new raceway just withdrew (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060412/NEWS01/604120342/1001) the measure "because of potential conflicts of interest". Um, why did this bill get as far as it did before this conflict was discovered? Who's sleeping at the wheel? Why wasn't there more due diligence on the part of the committees that allowed the bill into the Senate and House? Love the way the killing of the measure was described :
"..."For Representative Chang's reputation and for the institution of the Legislature, we thought that it would be best to nip it in the bud and table the measure"...just the old boy network trying to protect its own, which is disgusting. :mad:

If the voters of Hawai'i want a replacement for Hawai'i Raceway Park, let them decide that on its own merits rather than having to rely on "sweetheart deals" that could benefit certain people who are in a position to approve the funding.

Miulang
and why should it be different than the tax credit awarded to the ko olina party? the only time that place ever has a high amount of attendance is during the probowl. whereas the race track will always be used by the local enthusiasts.

you are right about the conflict of interest. it was like a low blow to mike oakland regarding Changs interests. was it fair to us? Hell no. politics...it f*cking sucks!

well sucks to be us. hopefully we'll find a resolution for us.

just an FYI, a local group who have been against us since the beginning will propose a bill to condemn the existing land of HRP, and probably get the influential, Hanabusa to push it foward. Now...what would you all rather support...a tax credit bill?? or a bill that uses over $20M in tax payers money to condemn the existing land from it's new owner. none of this, "I support neither" crap. And to people think we're trying to take $50M in non refundable tax credits. I hope you Waianae residents will have someone running against Hanabusa next term.

[Miulang]

and why should it be different than the tax credit awarded to the ko olina party? the only time that place ever has a high amount of attendance is during the probowl. whereas the race track will always be used by the local enthusiasts.

you are right about the conflict of interest. it was like a low blow to mike oakland regarding Changs interests. was it fair to us? Hell no. politics...it f*cking sucks!

well sucks to be us. hopefully we'll find a resolution for us.

just an FYI, a local group who have been against us since the beginning will propose a bill to condemn the existing land of HRP, and probably get the influential, Hanabusa to push it foward. Now...what would you all rather support...a tax credit bill?? or a bill that uses over $20M in tax payers money to condemn the existing land from it's new owner. none of this, "I support neither" crap. And to people think we're trying to take $50M in non refundable tax credits. I hope you Waianae residents will have someone running against Hanabusa next term.
No, Ko Olina shouldn't have happened, either. Just because one thing happened in the past that was wrong doesn't mean that you can use that precedent to continue doing the wrong thing today or in the future. I don't see anything wrong with letting the VOTERS decide whether to support this tax credit or not. Unfortunately, in Hawai'i, your State Constitution doesn't allow for referenda, so you're kind of stuck with the whims of your elected officials.

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

Now regarding the topic of actually replacing the raceway park...I think every island needs a park to allow motorsport enthusiasts a safe place to run their vehicles.

No one is asking the State or Counties to fund the construction let alone the maintenance of these parks (unlike our tennis, basketball and softball fields). The problem lies in the fact that a project this large requires as much funding going directly to it's construction and maintenance. Tax credits allow that to happen.

And Miulang in one of your earlier posts you compared substitute teacher pay equality. My brother-in-law's wife is a sub teacher. She has no teaching credentials other than a teaching certificate that is not on par with what full-time teachers must go thru in the form of education and certification. For a substitute teacher to ask for equality and not go thru the same certification process as their full-time peers is asking a lot.

But getting back OT I think Hawaii Raceway Park as well as Hawaii Motor Speedway needs to be saved. Especially HMS because I did the V/O's for the HMS commercials that appeared on OC16! :D

[kilikopela]

Does anyone believe in this?
Would everyone in the State of Hawaii support this?

This will cost the state over $15M if the land stays Ag. It will cost tenfold when it's rezoned for commercial use. that's not including the epa mandates that need to be cleaned up, and not including the cost to make the necessary improvements to make the facility more safe and modern to accomodate the racers.

The group Save Oahu's Race Tracks (SORT) group will be proposing this. to use the State Tax funding for our personal benefit? As a tax payer...I do not agree to this. Racing should be kept as private enterprise...the bill that was killed (but was supposed to pass until lthe conflict of interest Jerry Chang). SORT also tried everything they can and even Lobbied Colleen Hanabusa to kill the bill. Back to the thing them Mike Oaklands Daughter in Law, she widthdrew from signing or voting because of conflict of interest..why couldnt Hanabusa do the same? You see how our reps are corrupted? Now, they're probably going to have Hanabusa push for the state to use Tax Money to condemn the land. They're going to do exactly the opposite of what the proposed WFC was intended to do. Instead of giving a non refundable tax cushion, it will be using your tax money.

[poinographer]

I'm confused why you think Senator Hanabusa should have bowed out. Just because SORT lobbied her and she supported their position? Did/does Hanabusa have something personal to gain, in your view?

It's not unethical to listen to lobbyists. The pro-tax-credit side was lobbying heavily, too. They lost this round. Yawn.

[kilikopela]

It's not unethical to listen to lobbyists. The pro-tax-credit side was lobbying heavily, too. They lost this round. Yawn.

hardly, Mike Oakland's daughter-in-law, removed herself from the vote so that there would be no conflict of interest. We had no representatives speaking for us during our push for the bill. In fact, the house of reps were planning on passing the bill as noted by the advertiserm but because of Changs partial ownership of land or something of that matter cause a conflict of interest, which ultimately killed the bill without voting.

[poinographer]

[scratching head]

What, specifically, is Senator Hanabusa's conflict of interest on this matter?

Chun-Oakland did not involve herself in this because the matter involved her father-in-law. You say Hanabusa should not have voted because ... lobbyists talked to her?

[timkona]

Why close one track and open another track somewhere else?

The land under the racetrack is ALREADY dirty. Why mess up some new place? Just rebuild the existing facility without the EIS. What's the point of an EIS for a dirty use if the land is already dirty? Keep all the dirty uses in their spots.

I'm all for racing.

[ArchangelX]

This an absolutely fantastic thread...I'd like to commend all the participants on not taking it to a smack-talking session like say, the Honolulu Advertiser Discussion board...now thats a real mess.

Tim, I completly agree, but the fact is, the land has been SOLD already to a new landowner who has business plans set for that parcel of land. As was said to me, anyone that buys 65 acres of land in a one-time deal is in it for making money off of it. That land has plans for it already. It's gone. Plus, it's simply entirely too small now...it was built on 1960's era racing...racing has evolved now. The cars are faster, the drivers more capable, and the sports we do are more different and varied. Drifting? I don't think they had that back then. :D

Anyways, I just wanted to add now...so what do you all think, now that the tax bills are dead, and that Michael Oakland is still going to push for the new world class facility WITHOUT the tax credit?

Which one would you support now? A world class facility that supports the current and future needs of the community while doing it in a safe, and strictly regulated manner that's completly funded by private investors? Or SORT's push for condemnation by the State funded by tax payer dollars that will ultimately result in limited facility that cannot fully support all of the racer's needs?

I guess you obviously know where I stand on this issue...I was considering the idea of joining forces with SORT after the bills were killed (I stated this publically), but morally and ethically, the thought of condemnantion gives me pause. If it were the only option on the table...I might have been forced to support the measure...but since the WCF isn't dead, and it's still moving forward, I cannot publically support condemnation.

Lemme tell you this though, on the subject of Michael Oakland being a "bad cookie". I've only been on this island for two years, (the previous four years from 94-98 don't count 'cuz I didn't know anybody then either). I've been here for a very limited time, I don't know the history of hardly any of these people. I've heard bad things about MO, I've heard bad things about SORT and the people involved. I've seen SORT make public attacks on MO's character (but I haven't seen MO publicly attack SORT). I cannot and will not make my decisions based on conjecture from EITHER side. And noone else should either, if you're not intimately involved. I haven't since this thing began...I try to make my decisions based on the evidence and business plans at hand. And honestly, the WCF is already impressively thought out, and well documented. It's going to be incredible once it's built. I've been thinking only about the racer, my friends that are drifters, and the community that supports them.

There was so much grief about Oakland wanted the tax bills to line his pockets with money, that he had some scam going on that relied on getting those bills passed, and that he was just going to leave all of us high and dry. Welps...the tax bills are dead, and guess what? Oakland is still there. And he's still pushing to get this new world class facility. With his own hard-earned dollars. If he makes money on the deal, I could really care less. Because I'll be racing at a shiny, new, facility that supports our growing needs.

Wow...I really went off on a tangent there..hehe...been off the internet for about a week or so for the most part. Kinda let it rip. :D

[Miulang]

If Oakland and his hui want to still build a racetrack without using any State revenue resources (tax credits or whatever) in Hawai'i, then I say, full speed ahead. I only have issues when a private enterprise wants to use tax dollars to help subsidize something that isn't totally necessary for the health and safety of all residents.

Just like up here, where we're still paying off bonds for the Kingdome, which was demolished about 5 years ago and now we're also paying for the new baseball stadium and football stadium that were built right next to each other...and now Mr. SBUX is trying to extort the taxpayers into coughing up more bux to refurbish Key Arena or he's threatening to sell the team or move the franchise elsewhere. Sheesh. It costs about $60 PER SEAT for a ticket to a Sonics game (and then you figure in the food, parking... :eek: ) Conceivably it could cost 2 people close to $200 for one stinkin' NBA game. Football's just as bad...around $45 for a nosebleed seat. And you'd think baseball ticket prices, because there are so many more home games played, would be a whole lot cheaper? Uh uh. If you want a seat with any kind of view, expect to cough up about $29, and this is AFTER I've already helped pay for the place with my tax dollars.

Any type of organized sports activity is a "nice to have" in a community, but if it's not self-supporting, then that tells me that the community doesn't care whether it exists or not. I believe there is only one instance of a community fully supporting a sports franchise, and that's the Green Bay Packers (http://www.packers.com/history/fast_facts/stock_history/), which has close to 112,000 "owners" from the community as shareholders. If Mike Oakland could do something like this, then it would be a winner in my eyes.

Miulang

[ArchangelX]

I used to live in Tacoma, I have a pretty good idea of the mess up there. :D

[kilikopela]

[scratching head]

What, specifically, is Senator Hanabusa's conflict of interest on this matter?

Chun-Oakland did not involve herself in this because the matter involved her father-in-law. You say Hanabusa should not have voted because ... lobbyists talked to her?
more or less, she didnt weigh the differences and she was influenced heavily by SORT, and because the district she represents are inhibited by SORT. I must be speaking with too much heart, not much logic. She can push a tax credit bill for Ko Olina, but can't push the tax credit bill for a race track?

To think that the legislative gave it to the person who they knew would kill the bill. Generally...I think that's just messed up and shouldve removed herself from the decision...to her, that was her piece of lasagna and whacked it like there was no tomorrow.

[zztype]

If Oakland and his hui want to still build a racetrack without using any State revenue resources (tax credits or whatever) in Hawai'i, then I say, full speed ahead. I only have issues when a private enterprise wants to use tax dollars to help subsidize something that isn't totally necessary for the health and safety of all residents.

I believe there is only one instance of a community fully supporting a sports franchise, and that's the Green Bay Packers (http://www.packers.com/history/fast_facts/stock_history/), which has close to 112,000 "owners" from the community as shareholders. If Mike Oakland could do something like this, then it would be a winner in my eyes.

Miulang
Hey, yah! Mike, if you're reading this...think about it. I would consider buying some shares, and so would a whole bunch of other people, I think. That would leave the financing to the people who cared and wanted a facility like that. It wouldn't force everyone to pay for some peoples' pleasure.

Blaine

[ArchangelX]

Welps, Kilik, Senator Taniguchi was against the bill as well, that's why he handed it off to Senator Hanabusa...it's called punting. :(

[ArchangelX]

[scratching head]

What, specifically, is Senator Hanabusa's conflict of interest on this matter?

Chun-Oakland did not involve herself in this because the matter involved her father-in-law. You say Hanabusa should not have voted because ... lobbyists talked to her?

The problem lies in the fact that she was biased by her own district constituents...in a matter that was involving more districts than her own. She absolutely refused to listen a to the majority of the other tenants, and instead, chose to shut the bill down. We don't even really think she paid any attention to our emails...as she pretty much sent out an email to everyone telling us we were sending duplicates...like that matters. It's still a vote for yes, support the track.

There's alotta wheeling and dealing going on, and to be honest, after being at the capitol for the past year and a half, and seeing how Hawaii politics works, it kinda makes me sick at my stomach. Senator Hanabusa wrote this fantastic article saying, let's support tax credit bills, and then she shot ours down. Talk about ironic.

[Miulang]

The problem lies in the fact that she was biased by her own district constituents...in a matter that was involving more districts than her own. She absolutely refused to listen a to the majority of the other tenants, and instead, chose to shut the bill down. We don't even really think she paid any attention to our emails...as she pretty much sent out an email to everyone telling us we were sending duplicates...like that matters. It's still a vote for yes, support the track.

There's alotta wheeling and dealing going on, and to be honest, after being at the capitol for the past year and a half, and seeing how Hawaii politics works, it kinda makes me sick at my stomach. Senator Hanabusa wrote this fantastic article saying, let's support tax credit bills, and then she shot ours down. Talk about ironic.
If you guys really want your track, you gotta be like running water when it meets an obstacle...you gotta go around da obstacle (Hanabusa and the Legislature) and figure out how to get what you want without the State's help. If you have enough supporters, you can thumb your noses at the legislators who say yes to your face and then sabotage you in the end. Sour grapes aren't going to get you guys very far...think like that running water... ;)

Miulang

[ArchangelX]

I think we're already doing that...but you make it sound so easy. We were depending on those tax bills to help lure the big auto manufacture companies, along with keeping the bottom line low, so that we can keep the entry fees down for local racers. Without the bills, it's going to be a bit less incentive for private investors to take a chance.

It's hard to think like running water when you've got a dam for a senator blocking your way.

[poinographer]

Um, that low(er) entry fee argument is not going to win much sympathy from non-racers. Racing is a luxury.

Put a few less dollars into the vehicle and there's your high(er) entry fee.

[ArchangelX]

As far as that's concerned, why do you think it's unfair to want to make it easier for the local racers to use a new facility? Just because you're not a racer? So have you ever watched a race on TV? It's not just for racers, it's for spectators as well.

If you understood the tax credit, there'd be no discussion over this matter, anyways. Golf is a luxury (they're talking about giving golf courses a tax credit for switching to potable water!), skating is a luxury, football is a luxury, the Ko Olina World Class Aquarium is a luxury (it got a tax credit, and it's not even built yet), yet they all have facilities dedicated to them. That's all we're asking for.

Anyways, we're beating a dead horse, like I said, because the tax bills are dead.

[Miulang]

I think we're already doing that...but you make it sound so easy. We were depending on those tax bills to help lure the big auto manufacture companies, along with keeping the bottom line low, so that we can keep the entry fees down for local racers. Without the bills, it's going to be a bit less incentive for private investors to take a chance.

It's hard to think like running water when you've got a dam for a senator blocking your way.
If you throw your hands up and say that your only salvation is the State Legislature, you're really going to get frustrated. The State has so many more pressing priorities and I think if Oakland's hui can start fundraising on its own, it could then probably go back to the Legislature with some demonstrable proof (i.e. show them the money) where they might consider giving you guys something rather than nothing. It's never an all or nothing situation, or at least it never should be looked at as such. Whenever you put yourself into an all or nothing situation, you have a 50% chance of getting nothing. If you approach this by putting yourself in the other person's shoes (in this case the Legislature) and try to work with them on a compromise, you might get farther. I dunno if you'd lure the big auto manufacture companies to Hawai'i anyway. It would cost them beaucoup bux to ship cars over...I think even interisland competitions are gonna be tough to pull off.

Miulang

[poinographer]

As far as that's concerned, why do you think it's unfair to want to make it easier for the local racers to use a new facility? Just because you're not a racer? So have you ever watched a race on TV? It's not just for racers, it's for spectators as well.

If you understood the tax credit, there'd be no discussion over this matter, anyways. Golf is a luxury (they're talking about giving golf courses a tax credit for switching to potable water!), skating is a luxury, football is a luxury, the Ko Olina World Class Aquarium is a luxury (it got a tax credit, and it's not even built yet), yet they all have facilities dedicated to them. That's all we're asking for.

Anyways, we're beating a dead horse, like I said, because the tax bills are dead.

Uh, I never said it is "unfair" to support a tax credit for a racetrack. I said it was an unpersuasive argument to rely on a "keeping it cheap for racers" claim.

However, keep your chin up. The fact that your argument isn't persuasive (to me) doesn't mean that politicians can't/won't be persuaded to support it. Been to our "world class aquarium" lately? Heh.

[kilikopela]

hah! our office did the landscaping at the world class aquarium.

[ArchangelX]

Yeah....I see your argument. Anyways, we're to the point now where I don't think we're even looking that direction anymore. I'll have more info as I get it...but I think we might be going a different route.

I thought we had a world class aquarium down in Waikiki? :D

[kilikopela]

oh well..all is said and done, and now there is $1M in hold for condemnation of the track. Gonna need about 30, upwards to 50 when things get sorted out and the value upraised for the land. not to mention all the other things that's needed to get the track operable.

everyone suggesting or saying that MO could have done with out the tax credits, now we're faced with something worse...using your tax money. I hope you all will write to your senators and reps about this. this is so sad, they can't even synchronize ft weavers traffic lights.

[ArchangelX]

Just as an example of the work put into this process, here's the year 2000 predevelopment plan for the new facility at Parcel 9.

http://www.raceeventshawaii.com/Assets/Documents/modified_and_editied_predev.doc

A very informative read, and it shows the thought that's gone behind this entire push for the new facility. One good read will show you that this is a seriously intended project.