18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?! [Archive]

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 10:52 AM

That's really kind of sad to hear about things like this. On the one hand, you feel for the people all crammed into that 2-bedroom apartment. On the other hand, you worry, public health wise, if maybe the landlord needs to be monitoring more carefully the number of tenants s/he allows in each unit. There doesn't seem to be a State or County-side ordinance that restricts the number of people who can live in an apartment in Hawai'i. This is ironic, because I'm sure there are covenants and such restricting the number of pets per unit (where allowed) written into some lease agreements. 6 adults and 12 children in a 2-bedroom apartment is not a healthy or safe long term condition, and even in public housing I believe there are limits to the number of people who can live permanently in a unit. Hawai'i is NOT Beijing or Bangalore. We should not tolerate this kind of inhumane crowding into one small apartment.

Miulang

manoasurfer123

May 8th, 2006, 11:03 AM

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 11:19 AM

My guess is they are probably also an immigrant family who are used to living in crowded consitions. It'd almost be better for them to try to get into public housing because even there I'm sure there wouldn't be 18 people crowded into that little (probably less than 1000 sq ft) living space.

Miulang

timkona

May 8th, 2006, 11:22 AM

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 11:26 AM

Hey Miulang

If we make MORE rules about housing, and kick out those 18 people, don't we have more homeless. This is the exact same attitude that has created the homeless problem. We make rules about Environmental Studies, and Traffic Impact Studies, and Red Tape rules for compliance, and Subdivision standards, and this and that rule for something else. All this INCREASES costs for developers, which in turn raises the price of a dwelling. For 35 years, regulations have been written that impeded the development of dwellings, or increased the overall cost of building. All in the name of "protecting" folks.

Such is the legacy of the Baby Boomers.

And through studied cognitive dissonance, they don't see it this way.
I just find it ironic that landlords have restrictions against the number of pets you can have in a unit but none on the number of people you can cram into one unit. I think the landlords will find that PEOPLE can cause just as much destruction to property as animals do!

Miulang
BTW: Those 18 human beings are homeless now anyway, so what's the diff? Some social service agency should try to get the adults (the story didn't say whether it was 3 couples with 4 kids apiece, or 1 couple with 16 kids so it's hard to say what their living situation really was) into subsidized housing (like 3 units if there are 3 couples) rather than cram them all into one small living space.

Glen Miyashiro

May 8th, 2006, 11:39 AM

Most rental lease agreements specify exactly who is supposed to live in the unit. The names of all the occupants are written into the lease agreement, up front. If you sign up with four people, then you are only supposed to have those four people living in the unit. The problem is that if a fifth, sixth, seventh, etc. squeeze in, it is up to the landlord to enforce the lease agreement. Documenting and enforcing occupancy restrictions is a huge pain in the ass, which is why many landlords look the other way and just opt to not renew the tenants' month-to-month, instead of making the effort to evict them.

craigwatanabe

May 8th, 2006, 11:58 AM

Maybe not all are actually inside the apartment at the same time. Perhaps some of the adults work during the sleeping hours of others and the children and when they come home the children are in school and the other adults at work. When it comes to occupancy and fire codes I think that applies to the number in a building at any one given time...same goes for health.

And we haven't determined the sq footage of the property. I've seen some pretty large two bedroom apartments. Heck the house I was living in Waialae Iki IV ridge was a two bedroom however it could easily handle a party of well over 100 and not be crowded at all. Remember a two-bedroom also contains a living room, dining room/kitchen and possibly a coverd lanai.

So before we say "Crammed" we really need to know how big the apartment was.

LikaNui

May 8th, 2006, 11:59 AM

My guess is they are probably also an immigrant family who are used to living in crowded consitions.I must say, Miulang, that I'm surprised -- and disappointed -- that you would "guess" such a thing without having the facts. What makes you think they're an "immigrant family" as opposed to being a local family?
:confused:

LikaNui

May 8th, 2006, 12:01 PM

We make rules about Environmental Studies, and Traffic Impact Studies, and Red Tape rules for compliance, and Subdivision standards, and this and that rule for something else. All this INCREASES costs for developers Break out the violins, because my heart is breaking for those poor picked-upon developers. :rolleyes:

LikaNui

May 8th, 2006, 12:08 PM

I just find it ironic that landlords have restrictions against the number of pets you can have in a unit but none on the number of people you can cram into one unit.That's not correct, Miulang. Maybe it's true where you live (Seattle) but not here. Most landlords use the standard rental/lease form provided by the Hawaii Association of Realtors which includes Item 5: No subleasing or additional tenants, other than those who signed the lease, without prior written authorization of the landlord.

BTW: Those 18 human beings are homeless now anyway, so what's the diff? Geez, that's not correct either! Re-read the article. The Red Cross is taking care of the family, and that includes housing them for the time being.

Glen Miyashiro

May 8th, 2006, 12:22 PM

So before we say "Crammed" we really need to know how big the apartment was.I dunno Craig. It's a three story apartment building. Tax records say that the lot itself is 5,190 sq ft, the total building area is 7,650 sq ft, and there are nine units. On average that's less than 900 sq ft per unit. I'd call that "crammed" for 18 people.

craigwatanabe

May 8th, 2006, 12:24 PM

I dunno Craig. It's a three story apartment building. Tax records say that the lot itself is 5,190 sq ft, the total building area is 7,650 sq ft, and there are nine units. On average that's less than 900 sq ft per unit. I'd call that "crammed" for 18 people.

Yeah but are all the units similar? Some could be one bedroom or even studios.

timkona

May 8th, 2006, 12:27 PM

Break out the violins, because my heart is breaking for those poor picked-upon developers.

It's not the developers who suffer from increased development costs and over-regulation. It's the people at the lowest end of the economic spectrum who suffer from these types of cost increases.

A good example of cognitive dissonance is a person who claims to be a homeless advocate while supporting increased environmental or regulatory red tape for development.

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 12:55 PM

Geez, that's not correct either! Re-read the article. The Red Cross is taking care of the family, and that includes housing them for the time being.
Temporary yes, but what about long term? Allowing 18 people to live in a 900-1000 sq ft. apartment is pretty inhumane in this country.

Miulang

manoasurfer123

May 8th, 2006, 12:59 PM

Temporary yes, but what about long term? Allowing 18 people to live in a 900-1000 sq ft. apartment is pretty inhumane in this country.

Miulang
try tell that to some of the Katrina Victims w/out any house to go back to and living with families that they never even met before!

I'm sure they would be more than happy to be living 18 people in a 2brm... then 30,000 living in the Superdome.

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 01:01 PM

That's not correct, Miulang. Maybe it's true where you live (Seattle) but not here. Most landlords use the standard rental/lease form provided by the Hawaii Association of Realtors which includes Item 5: No subleasing or additional tenants, other than those who signed the lease, without prior written authorization of the landlord.

So if it turns out that the fire was started in the unit because one of the kids living there was playing with matches, who loses out more? The tenants who probably don't have rental insurance to cover the cost of replacing their lost goods, or the landlord whose insurance will have to pay to rebuild the unit? Now that this family has been "discovered" to be living in conditions like that, will the State go after the landlord for not enforcing his own rental agreement?

BTW: The covenants for my condo say no more than 2 people per bedroom on a permanent basis and no more than 2 cats or dogs.

Miulang

timkona

May 8th, 2006, 01:08 PM

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 01:11 PM

Manoa is right. (did i say that?)

Is it inhumane to let 18 people live in one apartment or would you give them homelessness as a choice?

Providing humanity with enough dwellings has become a bigger problem in direct relation to the number of restricitons and regulations we have placed upon the construction of dwellings. The "activist" mentality wanted the rules & regs the most. Now they are most upset by the homeless issue.

It's gotta be a weird twisting mix of belief systems that one must subscribe to in order to be both a liberal and an activist. Any self proclaimed liberal activist is likely to be awash in cognitive dissonance, making them easy targets in the "debate" game.

I'm actually looking at it from a public health perspective more than a political perspective. People living in crowded conditions are more prone to infectious diseases like strep, mono and colds and flu. Of course homelessness is not a good alternative. But I also wonder if these families are immigrant families (and I'm not saying that they are) that perhaps they aren't aware of social services that might put them into less crowded living situations.

Miulang

timkona

May 8th, 2006, 01:56 PM

(tip toes into the room with cheshire cat grin on face)

Okay Miulang, heres where you decide which side of the fence you are truly on.

Would you be in favor of relaxing rules & regulations as they pertain to development so that more dwellings might possibly be available at the lowest price ranges, or would you favor more government intervention into peoples lives in the form of shelters and handouts?

And now for a brief interlude.

A logical conundrum. Spock was going to be killed by the Klingons. They told him he could have one last statement. If he told a lie he would be stoned to death. If he told the truth he would stabbed to death. What do you think Spock said?

He said "I will be stoned to death".

Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it?

LOL....it's like watching people paint the floor starting from the doorway

Paul

May 8th, 2006, 01:58 PM

manoasurfer123

May 8th, 2006, 02:11 PM

I actually have taken classes in urban planning. Another possible solution to the housing problem besides Timkona's aggresive growth idea is to change the building codes. The reason why houses cost so much to build is because of the building codes. Who makes these codes? The builders that's who and it's in there financial interest to keep them in place. Now I don't know if I believe in this myself but it is something that my professors actually said in class. They talked about Mexico and how there really isn't a homeless problem there because people can quickly build adobe structures to live in. Technically someone living in a tarpaper shack is not homeless.
If that's the case...Then I guess all the people here in Hawaii living under tarps wouldn't be considered homeless then... according to Mexico officials.

I'm assuming that before there were 18... there were probably 8 or so... the other 10 probably moved in later on to "prevent" themselves from being homeless.

(And this is Hawaii... where it seems acceptable for 30 - 40 year olds to still be living with/Off of there parents.)

I asked a co-worker when she was going to get married and move out of her parents house... she said... "If I get married... I'm moving him into my parents house!"

And she makes more than me and could be on her own already!

Tiger Beer

May 8th, 2006, 04:38 PM

6 adults and 12 kids were in that 2-bedroom apartment.

I wish the article was even more detailed. Is that 3 couples with 4 kids each? Or an extended family?

Anyways.. interesting nontheless.

helen

May 8th, 2006, 04:44 PM

From the impression I got from the original article it was an single parent with 2 kids when the fire started. No idea about the others, but I suppose in the coming days this story might give out more details.

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 04:50 PM

Okay Miulang, heres where you decide which side of the fence you are truly on.

Would you be in favor of relaxing rules & regulations as they pertain to development so that more dwellings might possibly be available at the lowest price ranges, or would you favor more government intervention into peoples lives in the form of shelters and handouts?

I am in favor of responsible growth, one where the population remains relatively stable so you don't have to worry about housing being a scarce commodity, which is what is driving up the cost (microeconomics 101).

If Hawai'i was a sovereign nation (which of course it will never become again at the rate things are going) it would impose immigration limits. At some point, the kind of housing you promote will mean nada because the infrastructure will be unable to support any more people. I'm not talking roads, either. I'm talking basic services, like water, waste disposal, schools. Would you encourage development on ground tainted by poisons like chlordane or the weed killers used in sugar and pineapple agriculture in years past, before there was an awareness of the harm those poisons cause like they are planning to build in Kaneohe? As a developer, could you sleep well at night knowing that the houses you've built could also be killing off innocent people who won't know of their exposure to life threatening illnesses until years later?

There are some people in this world who really do need assistance from the government to live their lives for physical or mental reasons. For the ones who can be contributing members of society and just need a leg up, I see no harm in making them use sweat equity to rehab abandoned buildings or houses into liveable units. The State apparently has at least 3-400 units that are uninhabitable right now. Why not team up with a building trade program at a couple of community colleges and give people the skills they need to get good jobs in construction, while at the same time allowing them to regain some self pride by helping to "build" the homes that they live in?

There really should be no such thing as a "free lunch".

Miulang

timkona

May 8th, 2006, 05:04 PM

It is a widely held misconception more people move to Hawaii than are born here. Controlling population? Like China?

In Hawaii, housing is a scarce commodity not because of population pressures (demand side) but rather due to regulations, prohibitions, and social resistance to development (supply side).

It should be noted that the only markets where housing is scarce is at the lowest end of the development spectrum. Rich folks can afford plenty of houses in Hawaii.

I would encourage development only upon ground that has already been developed. That means bulldoze the old and build higher and higher. In this way, "new" infrastructure is not as much a problem.

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 05:14 PM

It is a widely held misconception more people move to Hawaii than are born here. Controlling population? Like China?
.
It's not a misconception. There aren't as many people moving from the Mainland to Hawai'i as people would like to believe, but there are a lot of people from the developing world (Asia and now Latin America) who see Hawai'i as more ideal than moving to the mainland because of Hawai'i's temperate climate and supposed "aloha" culture.

Miulang

Some statistics (http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=179) for you, also this from a very recent census report on Hawai'i demographic (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2006/Apr/20/br/br03p.html)s:
"...Hawai'i had a natural population increase of 9,200 a year, plus net foreign migration of 5,572 people. During that period, the state's population increased from 1.21 million to 1.26 million...."

timkona

May 8th, 2006, 05:35 PM

Well then, there you have it. I have a lot of conversations with folks who would swear that our housing problems come from somewhere else. (Immigration)

The people who live here and the people who are moving here are NOT competing for the same house.

Folks from elsewhere are mostly retirees looking for a place to die. They have $975,000 or more to spend on a gated community with a fireplace (in the tropics...lol), and a pool that is used exclusively for 6 days a year while the grandkids are in town. And mostly they live in their Arizona home cuz the tropics make it hard for Grandpa to breath.

Folks who live here need a dwelling that costs less than $220,000. Under the brutal reality of that scenario, their best economic bet is a 900 sf, 2 br, 1 ba condo on the 19th floor. A building, that would allow for that kind of economic, would have to be tall enough to spread the land/unit cost thin. And the densities within the building would have to be as tight as 250sf/unit for little studios, that would promote affordability, most especially for the young, single, crowd. A building of that size would be most functional with 1-3 layers of retail/business/warehouse/office, such that some of the buildings spaces would "lend" themselves toward the economy, rather than being just a big dormitory.

And the likelihood of owning a "piece of land" is scarce at best.

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 05:41 PM

The people who live here and the people who are moving here are NOT competing for the same house. ...
Folks who live here need a dwelling that costs less than $220,000. Under the brutal reality of that scenario, their best economic bet is a 900 sf, 2 br, 1 ba condo on the 19th floor.

And the likelihood of owning a "piece of land" is scarce at best.
The immigrant population from overseas could very well be competing for the lower end housing. And they normally don't just bring themselves, but their extended families as well.

And how many occupants would you say it would be safe (healthwise) to allow to live in one of those 900 sf, 2 br 1 ba condos on the 19th floor? 4? 18? 36? Couldn't 18 people crammed into a 900 sf condo be considered living in "dorm like" conditions too? :(

Miulang

kaneohegirl

May 8th, 2006, 06:18 PM

I gotta jump in hea an say sumting dis isnt a problem dat jus wen come up. dis been around awhile it is just getting worse. when I was a kid my sister who is 10 yrs older then myself moved out and moved in with her BF and had a child. they lived for YEARS in 1 room (a bedroom)that was rented out by a little old lady that rented 3 other rooms out in the house. they all shared a bathroom there was NO kitchen except the hot plate that was in the bathroom. as the baby got bigger they tried to move into a regular apt but it was just too hard. so they ended up moving into our house. so we had 2 sep families living in one house my mother and stepfather and my sisters family. oh and 5 dogs. was it easy Hell no is it still this way? in some ways yes she (sis) is sharing a 1 bedroom with 2 other ppl and have a hardtime paying the rent. the only consolation right now is her daughter is in a group home doing rehab the bad thing the daughter is pregnant and will get out of rehab soon..... hmmm wonder where shes gonna live? oh wait I know with mom....

so I belive there are WAAAAYY more ppl living like this family just to pay rent. odds are the homes are clean the kids are taken care of because with this many ppl living there no need for daycare someone (or 2) can stay home clean house watch the kids and cook the meals. what do the apt look like probly lots of bunkbeds and a couple of tvs one in each room. hey if the plumbing worked sanitation isnt too much of an issue is it? is it right for ppl to live this way no but when it comes down to are you going to let your kids be homeless no you wont.

now there are going to be those that say oh maybe they were druggies or immigrants yea maybe ...but think beyond that what if was you... you loose your job you get 3 kids an your wife is only working part time cause daycare cost too much.... what you going do? live on the beach wen your mom says come you live hea we take care of you, you work help pay bills, your wife stay home be mom, help grandma clean house... wot you goin do take your family to the beach?

how many of you are living paycheck to paycheck? waiting to get paid to pay the electric bill or your car payment ? how many of you can go on cash savings (not credit cards) for 3 months while you find a job that pays as much as you were making? heck even one month? can you do it? because that is all that stands between you and being homeless like so many ppl right now just one bad bump in the road. thats all it takes!

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 06:19 PM

Related to the perception of what constitutes "crowded", I just learned about a very fascinating field of science called "proxemics (http://www.bremercommunications.com/Proxemics_How_We_Use_Space.htm)", which measures the comfortable distance between people in various situations.

If it turns out that those 18 people living in that apartment in Waipahu were immigrants, it could very well explain why there were so many of them living there. Proxemics says that different cultures require different amounts of personal space to be comfortable. In other words, in the US, if there is an uncrowded bus, the tendency would be for people to try to space themselves apart; in Japan, which has a different culture and population density, people think nothing of being jammed like sardines into subway cars.

Miulang

kaneohegirl

May 8th, 2006, 06:25 PM

Some statistics (http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=179) for you, also this from a very recent census report on Hawai'i demographic (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2006/Apr/20/br/br03p.html)s:

the problem with demographics is ppl tend to think its going to get them in trouble so they DO NOT fill them out properly. if you know you have 18 ppl living in you 2 bedroom apt and You know that you arent supposed to have that many ppl and you are AFRAID of being caught by those bad government officials telling your landlord " hey did you know you had 18 ppl living in apt 3C" THEY ARE GONNA LIE

heck alot of ppl just throw the census forms out!

proven point is California were they know the census is off by a large margin due to the hispanic population not filling them out due to fear of deportation....
so a census can only give you a portion of real statistics

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 06:27 PM

the problem with demographics is ppl tend to think its going to get them in trouble so they DO NOT fill them out properly. if you know you have 18 ppl living in you 2 bedroom apt and You know that you arent supposed to have that many ppl and you are AFRAID of being caught by those bad government officials telling your landlord " hey did you know you had 18 ppl living in apt 3C" THEY ARE GONNA LIE

heck alot of ppl just throw the census forms out!

proven point is California were they know the census is off by a large margin due to the hispanic population not filling them out due to fear of deportation....
so a census can only give you a portion of real statistics
So KG, if what you're saying is true, then wouldn't it also be true that the census UNDERESTIMATES the true number? I shudder to think how many other Hawai'i families are in the same situation as this one group of people.

Miulang

kaneohegirl

May 8th, 2006, 06:32 PM

one of my past life jobs was as a rental manager for a apt complex there was a formula that was used

2 ppl per bedroom 1 per unit= total # of ppl in apt MAX

example

2 bedroom apt you could have 5 ppl living there .... 2 ppl per bedroom x 2 bedrooms + 1 person per unit= 5 2x2=1=5

3 bedroom = 7 ppl.... again 2ppl per bedroom + 1 person per unit=7....2x3+1=7

that was it you could have less ppl but not more than the max. so if you have a absentee manager/owner who only cared about getting the rent they arent going to care until something like this happens because now his insurance will look at it harder. before paying out.

kaneohegirl

May 8th, 2006, 06:34 PM

So KG, if what you're saying is true, then wouldn't it also be true that the census UNDERESTIMATES the true number? I shudder to think how many other Hawai'i families are in the same situation as this one group of people.

Miulang

das what I was trying to make a point of.... just how MANY ppl are living this way. I know from experience. my family was pooooor. all we had was eachother. sad sometimes to think about it.

kaneohegirl

May 8th, 2006, 06:47 PM

I just learned about a very fascinating field of science called "proxemics (http://www.bremercommunications.com/Proxemics_How_We_Use_Space.htm)", which measures the comfortable distance between people in various situations.

wow thats kinda cool I didnt know the name before. I know that this is taught in social sciences in schools/college. I also know that it can be a learned behavior.
example
here in america so many kids have their own rooms. so they have their space. and there are some kids that share their rooms with siblings.thus having to share....
take the "I have my own room" kid and stick them in a dorm room with a roomate and they have to learn to share, to respect personal space, and develope schedules to use things like the bathroom or have dates over. there are many tearful calls to home or fights that have to be settled in the dorm office.
where as the child that has had to share a room goes into it with a more open frame of mind knowing they have to share so they settle in easier and can cope better because they know how to share and respect space.

by the end of college the had thier own room kid has learned how to live with others in a close proximity.
the kid that shared room before was just glad to done with school!

so is it such a leap to think that a room could be wall to wall bunk beds? sleeping 4 -6 ppl in a room? Nah it can be dealt with ppl can learn to adjust.

manoasurfer123

May 8th, 2006, 06:53 PM

Working in the DOE has enlightened me to just how many kids we have that are in the exact situation that Kaneohe Girl speaks of.

I would rather see them crowded in a safe ohana house than at the beach or parks.

Most of have driven by those houses built next to the going Ewa direction about 3/4 mile before the Bishop Museum... theres some pretty good size houses.... I bet theres plenty people that could fit in there as a family very comfortably.... and they each seem to have about 3-4 garages too.

That is not one of the most "wealthiest" neighborhoods if you know what I mean.

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 07:15 PM

Just because there are lots of kids in the same situation doesn't mean that we should encourage that kind of overcrowding. It may be better "for them" than a life on the streets, but would we wish that kind of life on ourselves? I don't think so. But it's perfectly OK for others.

If you ever studied rats, you know that when the density in a cage gets to a certain level, the rats start turning on each other and hurting and killing each other until they sense they have enough "personal space". Humans are not rats, but psychologists study rat behavior all the time and try to extrapolate things from what they observe. Why are people who live in ghettos more likely to get killed or hurt than someone living in the suburbs or in a nicer part of town? Why, when a violent act is committed, do the authorities first suspect immediate family members? Why are more people killed by people they know than by total strangers?

Miulang

kaneohegirl

May 8th, 2006, 07:26 PM

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 07:33 PM

so why will ppl build high rise condos for rich folks that might have 30 stories and 10 units per story that 300 units

but when affordable housing gets built its 3 maybe 4 stories= 40 units

because them type of ppl arent wanted.... but Ill take 10x as many ppl that are rich.... go figure
The condo building I live in is the perfect size: 44 units on 4 floors, garage parking below, right up the hill from a town center and within walking distance of just about every amenity I need (including a McDs! :eek: ). I wouldn't want to live in a 300-unit development or cluster of buildings where you would never know your neighbor. That "noble experiment" was tried in places like Chicago (Cabrini Greens) where it created all kinds of social problems and is now abandoned and in the process of demolished to make way for smaller clusters of low income housing.

Miulang

manoasurfer123

May 8th, 2006, 07:46 PM

The condo building I live in is the perfect size: 44 units on 4 floors, garage parking below, right up the hill from a town center and within walking distance of just about every amenity I need (including a McDs! :eek: ). I wouldn't want to live in a 300-unit development or cluster of buildings where you would never know your neighbor. That "noble experiment" was tried in places like Chicago (Cabrini Greens) where it created all kinds of social problems and is now abandoned and in the process of demolished to make way for smaller clusters of low income housing.

Miulang
I think you need to re-read auntie lynns Christmas wish...and see how a community benefited. Aunty tried a so called experiment w/ her community and outsiders (meaning... readers here on HT as well as some of aunties other connections" everyone pulled together to give slippers for the kids to that the so called kids of the cluster of buildings called MWH could have slippahs on their feet.

While many of us don't live in these conditions... many of us know of, have relatives, or are just a few paychecks from being in those kind of housing situations.

Miulang

May 8th, 2006, 07:48 PM

I think you need to re-read auntie lynns Christmas wish...and see how a community "outsiders... readers here on HT as well as some of aunties other connections" pulled together to give slippers to that the so called cluster of buildings called MWH!!!

While many of us don't live in these conditions... many of us know of, have relatives, or are just a few paychecks from being in those kind of housing situations.
Heheheheh. Yes, Manoa, I know. I was one of the Titas who also kokua'd. :D

You wanna read some horror stories about what it's like living in one of those low income skyscrapers? Read these stories about Cabrini Green (http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-schmichcabrini-storygallery,1,1458275.storygallery?coll=chi-site-nav) in Chicago. I drove past there a few times. Talk about depressing and dangerous. This is the history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini_Green) of Cabrini-Green, and some pictures (http://www.voicesofcabrini.com/redevelopment_pics.html) before and after "redevelopment" into a mixed income neighborhood.

MWH would be considered paradise to former residents of Cabrini Green, and it's because of people like Aunty Lynn, there is still some hope for the residents of MWH.

1stwahine

May 8th, 2006, 08:11 PM

Mahalo, Manoasurfer123 and Tita Muilang! Earlier this evening, I wrote a nasty post on da odda Forum I belong to. Regarding something that happen today where I live. I was pisst. (It's deleted) :o

After reading what you wrote I realized - I was wrong. Yes, there is HOPE. I nor my fellow neighbors must not give up. It is all within us to keep the fire alive and to reach for the dream to move out of Public Housing someday. In the meantime, we must build and come together to make our community safe for our children and ourselves.

Yes, we do have problems at MWH. Unfortunately, as I type this post - Illegal Drugs are being sold like candies on Pua Lane. On weekends, it is the norm to see Police Cars patrolling the areas due to Domestic Violence and other Criminal Activities.

However, as a resident here - I am never going to give up. I was earlier today. Not now. Yes, I plan to move out oneday. Until that time...this is my community. I shall fight with every breath and power I have in me to make my community safe!

K-den. This not my Blog.

I pau ventilate. ;)

Auntie Lynn

timkona

May 8th, 2006, 08:15 PM

tutusue

May 8th, 2006, 08:35 PM

The condo building (http://www.1stchoicevacationrentals.com/pics/homes/ko_olina_and_oceanfront_makaha8.jpg) where I own and live is considered affordable housing and is section 8 approved. It's only 4 stories. However, there are 425 units! The by-laws condone a max of 4 people per 1 bedroom unit. Those units are only 400 sq. ft...in essence, 1 person per 100 sq. ft. My immediate neighbors a decade ago packed 5 people in there...parents + 3 kids. And I mean 'packed'. I can't imagine living 2 to a unit! The neighbors were eventually evicted. I was sorry to see them go. They were so incredibly kind to me. Not to each other, tho'. Yikes!

Applying this "theory", the Waipahu apt. would need to be 1800 sq. ft. to give the occupants the same amount of 'room' as my unit. I doubt there are many 1800 sq. ft., 2 bedroom apartments in Waipahu. My guess is each of those occupants was living within their own 50 sq. ft. That beats the beach or a telephone booth but not by much.

kaneohegirl

May 8th, 2006, 08:43 PM

The trick to keeping those kinds of developments from becoming projects is to mix the uses. 1st floor - Big Retail 2,3,4 floor - office and retail....and then tiny studios, small 1 br, bigger 2 br, biggest 3 br, and penthouses.

EXACTLY!! when it is more than a place to crash its more about keeping it clean providing jobs, daycare, schools, parks, ect its then a community. there are places like this in japan. high rise affordable housing where you never need to leave you building unless you want to

manoasurfer123

May 8th, 2006, 10:29 PM

Heheheheh. Yes, Manoa, I know. I was one of the Titas who also kokua'd. :D

You wanna read some horror stories about what it's like living in one of those low income skyscrapers? Read these stories about Cabrini Green (http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-schmichcabrini-storygallery,1,1458275.storygallery?coll=chi-site-nav) in Chicago. I drove past there a few times. Talk about depressing and dangerous. This is the history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini_Green) of Cabrini-Green, and some pictures (http://www.voicesofcabrini.com/redevelopment_pics.html) before and after "redevelopment" into a mixed income neighborhood.

MWH would be considered paradise to former residents of Cabrini Green, and it's because of people like Aunty Lynn, there is still some hope for the residents of MWH.
The residences that you are talking...

If you ask one of them what the word "ohana" means... can anyone tell you?

If not... tell them to watch Lilo and stitch's original movie.

Here in Hawaii... the ohana value is very important... Many families have that crazy uncle on crack... that foolish cuz that always shows up drunk... etc...

however, no matter what in Hawaii... I have learned that the true "hawaii" families that practice and preach Ohana values and meaning... will almost always never turn their back on their own Ohana....

Thus creating 18 people in a 2brm apt...whether it be breaking the lease or not....

Sheesh... if you ask PZ... he lived with 4 adults in a dorm room about the size of a large walkin closet for at least a semester or two... and that's just a financial savings for them....

and hilo prices weren't even that expensive then...however... PZ being as smart as he was...managed to pull it off... (less yet... he had a RA living in the attatched unit I do believe...and technically if the RA would have "known" about the situation.... our own PZ and Kilihane might have been in a tight Hilo rental market...

People do whatever they can to get by these days...

I have neighbors w/ people off their lease.... I swear to god the house in front of me is being rented out on craigslist by the night by a roommate whom the other roommate is off fighting for america!!!

Tonights Manoa rant... sorry PZ and Kilihane... I know you have talked about living in UH Hilo's dorms before so I don't feel as though I'm letting anything illegal out!!!

Just trying to expand on the topic of tight and small living quarters and you 4 living in that small as room...is a perfect example!!!!

Manoa

1stwahine

May 8th, 2006, 10:34 PM

Manoasurfer123, go change your word to something else. :eek:

Auntie Lynn

Paul

May 9th, 2006, 06:57 AM

If that's the case...Then I guess all the people here in Hawaii living under tarps wouldn't be considered homeless then... according to Mexico officials.

If they are living on their own land then they aren't homeless. In Puna on the big island there are actually lots of people living like this. They get a building permit so they can get temp. power but never build the house. They just keep on living in tents and shacks. This has a dual advantage of decreasing property values in neighboring areas.

I'm not saying there should be no building codes but they could be relaxed a little.

timkona

May 9th, 2006, 07:30 AM

I'm not saying there should be no building codes but they could be relaxed a little.

It would be good to 'undo' some of the myriad regulations that exist for development. 35 years of activism, with folks clamoring for this law or that protection, has resulted in a housing crisis on a nation wide scale. Mind you this crisis only exists at the lowest end of the economic spectrum, where margins are thin, and additional regs can have a crippling effect on prices. I said it once, and I'll say it again. It is the mindset of a certain generation in this country that has created the intransigence.

I bet most of the folks who are homeless never once went to a County meeting to demand that a developer jump through some hoop, or protect some species, or spend thousands on an archaelogical survey. These are the kinds of costs that price a dwelling out of the reach of the working class.

There are some who would say that the rules should be different for developments that have lower prices. But two-tiered laws are seldom legal.

Leo Lakio

May 9th, 2006, 07:54 AM

(tip toes into the room with cheshire cat grin on face)
Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it?
Whoof! Clean off your computer screen, Tim --- you're just a little too excited here.

pzarquon

May 9th, 2006, 08:06 AM

Sheesh... if you ask PZ... he lived with 4 adults in a dorm room about the size of a large walkin closet for at least a semester or two... and that's just a financial savings for them.... Tonights Manoa rant... sorry PZ and Kilihane... I know you have talked about living in UH Hilo's dorms before so I don't feel as though I'm letting anything illegal out!!!I have no idea why we're being cited in this thread, or how our arrangements at UH Hilo are even relevant. Sure we had two happy couples essentially occupying a single dorm room built for two, but the two "guests" were also paying for their own dormitory accommodations (they just weren't making much use of them), so obviously it wasn't a "financial" issue. Further, student housing is a wholly different animal from the open rental market. Dorms have different ameneties, living areas, management and maintenance arrangements... it's apples and oranges.

College kids cramming a heap of people into small places has a long and colorful history. They may have some expertise in living cheaply, but keep in mind that going to college in general implies access to resources than many people don't have.

Multigenerational households have been common in Hawaii for decades. Except 50 years ago, you had four families living on one property with "ohana zoning" and a couple of structures, or a really big house in Waipahu or something. Now "moving in with grandma" means squeezing into an apartment, and one that's less likely to be owned.

Miulang

May 9th, 2006, 08:09 AM

The residences that you are talking...

If you ask one of them what the word "ohana" means... can anyone tell you?

If not... tell them to watch Lilo and stitch's original movie.

Here in Hawaii... the ohana value is very important... Many families have that crazy uncle on crack... that foolish cuz that always shows up drunk... etc...

however, no matter what in Hawaii... I have learned that the true "hawaii" families that practice and preach Ohana values and meaning... will almost always never turn their back on their own Ohana....

Believe it or not, many of the former residents of Cabrini Green were extremely upset about having to be relocated because they HAD in fact formed communities within those scarred buildings. Those tight communities were created not because people were related by blood but because it was a question of survival. Now that that Cabrini Green area is being developed into the kind of place that Timkona advocates (mixed use, mixed income), guess what's happening to most of the Section 8 people? They are being forced to move further and further away from the area, and are being replaced by yuppie types because Cabrini Green happens to be in the Gold Coast of Chicago.

Lilo&Stitch is a cute fantasy. Even in Hawai'i, even where there is supposed to be ohana, SOME people are still being left behind. :mad:

Miulang

timkona

May 9th, 2006, 08:23 AM

You say 'Mixed Income', then presume their is no place for the Sec 8 folk. Don't they qualify as the lowest end of "Mixed"?

What's it gonna be Miulang?

Ever heard the one about Spock?

Miulang

May 9th, 2006, 08:26 AM

You say 'Mixed Income', then presume their is no place for the Sec 8 folk. Don't they qualify as the lowest end of "Mixed"?

What's it gonna be Miulang?

Ever heard the one about Spock?
Under the terms of the CHA redevelopment plans for Cabrini Green, a number of Sec. 8 people were supposedly guaranteed placement in some of the units. Unfortunately, they also had to meet fairly stringent criteria, which meant that many of them with poor or no credit histories or criminal records, could not qualify for any of the new housing. :(

Tim, you really should go google "Cabrini Green" and look stuff up for yourself. Fascinating reading about the noble intentions of the Chicago Housing Authority.

Miulang

kaneohegirl

May 9th, 2006, 09:07 AM

Unfortunately, they also had to meet fairly stringent criteria, which meant that many of them with poor or no credit histories or criminal records, could not qualify for any of the new housing. :(

Miulang

now the poor credit part I kinda see I mean that shows they are flaky with their bills and would be a risk to paying the rent, but not the criminal record part...why subsidize their housing with our tax dollars? I have been on the poorest end of the spectrum I wouldnt expect anyone to hand out money or housing to a druggie or gang member. it just makes sense. while the perfect world would have no crime and no homelessness we dont live in a perfect world. and if you want the easy way we shouldnt give it to you.get off your ass work 2 jobs bust it out WORK like respectable ppl.

lurkah

May 9th, 2006, 09:50 AM

now the poor credit part I kinda see I mean that shows they are flaky with their bills and would be a risk to paying the rent, but not the criminal record part...why subsidize their housing with our tax dollars? I have been on the poorest end of the spectrum I wouldnt expect anyone to hand out money or housing to a druggie or gang member.
But what about the former druggie or gang member who spent his or her time in prison turning his or her life around and is now trying to do the right thing towards raising and supporting a family? Don't they deserve a chance at housing assistance too? And how do you distinguish between them and career criminals? Would they, for example, need to save a mother and child from a burning house in order to redeem themselves as being worthy again in the eyes of everyone else?

Criminal records per se don't show the whole person, and I think that using that criteria alone as a blanket reason for denial isn't right.

I wonder how many here remember Sammy Amalu (http://starbulletin.com/98/09/16/news/whatever.html).

kaneohegirl

May 9th, 2006, 12:57 PM

But what about the former druggie or gang member who spent his or her time in prison turning his or her life around and is now trying to do the right thing towards raising and supporting a family?

Criminal records per se don't show the whole person, and I think that using that criteria alone as a blanket reason for denial isn't right.

I admit that I generalized the druggie/gang member part to mean currently actively still on parole/probation (which are more likely to fall back into the same patterns of behavior).
I do think that the ones who learned their lesson and reformed and have given back to the community have steady full time jobs and are productive members of society should be given a second chance at a good life

1stwahine

May 9th, 2006, 01:01 PM

I admit that I generalized the druggie/gang member part to mean currently actively still on parole/probation (which are more likely to fall back into the same patterns of behavior).
I do think that the ones who learned their lesson and reformed and have given back to the community have steady full time jobs and are productive members of society should be given a second chance at a good life

I was about to write a lengthy post to your odda comment. But now no need. :rolleyes:

Mahalo for the clarification. ;)

Auntie Lynn

manoasurfer123

May 9th, 2006, 01:04 PM

I have no idea why we're being cited in this thread, or how our arrangements at UH Hilo are even relevant. Sure we had two happy couples essentially occupying a single dorm room built for two, but the two "guests" were also paying for their own dormitory accommodations (they just weren't making much use of them), so obviously it wasn't a "financial" issue. Further, student housing is a wholly different animal from the open rental market. Dorms have different ameneties, living areas, management and maintenance arrangements... it's apples and oranges.
I was just trying to basically point out that if one of our own threaders can endure living in a small, cramped situation like that... then some people obviously can handle more than others...

I lived in the Kehau dorms which were much bigger then the ones you were living in, however, I found that having 2 people in such a confined space...made it difficult for me to live in.... Therefore, the next semester... I ended up doing a "buy-out" so that I could have the room to myself...

Every person is different and can handle living situations differently....

My mom has a 3brm house all to herself on the Big Island... While My wifes family has 6 living in a 3 brm...

Everyone is comfortable in different situations....that is all I was trying to convey and using someone on this board that most of us at least know of... as an example was the best way I thought I could get it across... I guess it wasn't the best way...

lurkah

May 9th, 2006, 01:04 PM

I admit that I generalized the druggie/gang member part to mean currently actively still on parole/probation (which are more likely to fall back into the same patterns of behavior).
I do think that the ones who learned their lesson and reformed and have given back to the community have steady full time jobs and are productive members of society should be given a second chance at a good life
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/lurkah/graphics/smileykiss.gif

manoasurfer123

May 9th, 2006, 01:23 PM

I was just trying to basically point out that if one of our own threaders can endure living in a small, cramped situation like that... then some people obviously can handle more than others...
I was also trying to point out that even People we know this board have had to "bend" rules to accomodate their housing.

We both know that the only way males and females were allowed to live in the same dorm room was if they were married at the time.... were you guys??? No!!!

Yes you mentioned the two guests were paying for the accomodations (I'm assuming you paid your dorm fees.... but were you also paying for the extra "usage of the building ie; the extra electricity, water, and "Free Toilet Paper" that was given to dorm students in those accomodations?

Another bend of the rule... you knew that as residents of those dorms... each resident was required to purchase a meal plan.... I don't want to assume anything...but I will ask.... did all four of you pay for meal plans???

I'm not trying to hark on anybody... Had I been that smart... I would have done the same thing w/ my girlfriend at the time.... however, she was on scholarship from the Tennis team and her housing was paid....(and her roommate wasn't just going to let me stay w/ them)

Housing in Hawaii is tricky...and it seems like everyone at sometime or another has had to do something to keep a roof over there heads.

pzarquon

May 9th, 2006, 01:48 PM

Manoa, your insistence on citing and deconstructing my personal college situation is baffling at best, disconcerting and inappropriate at worst.

Did my unmarried roommate and I shack up with our girlfriends in a dorm room built for two? Yes. Is that against the rules? Yes. Does this prove a point about the real, difficult decisions everyday people have to make to keep a roof over their heads? No. College kids do all kinds of stuff. But college is not the real world. The dumb things college kids have the luxury to do -- paying thousands of dollars for tuition on top of housing costs, meanwhile shacking up, eating pizza every night, whatever -- is incomparable to the kinds of choices and rules (and rule bending) a struggling family has to face.

As to your questions about "extra usage" and "meal plans"? Like I said, all four of us were paying for dorm space and services. So, yes, we all had meal plans. And if we doubled the toilet paper consumption in one dorm room, I'd imagine we concurrently cut the toilet paper consumption in the rooms not being used.

I'm not trying to hark on anybody...Could've fooled me. You say, "I thought I could get it across... I guess it wasn't the best way..." But then carry on some more. Stick to the issue. Not only are you making this personal (and I wasn't even participating in this thread), but you're not even making the point you think you're making.

glossyp

May 9th, 2006, 02:55 PM

Wow! This thread has really grown over the past couple of days. Just a quick comment on public housing in Hawaii. My understanding is that the waiting list is between 2 to 5 years so it is not a viable solution for the people who lost their house in the short term.

I do not have a problem with many people living in a small space. The Western notion that everyone needs a lot of space is at odds with the realities of life on an island with a growing population. Singapore is one of the most populated places on earth but it doesn't feel terribly crowded because it is well laid out and well maintained. Of course, they have done what timkona recommends and they built up.

1stwahine

May 9th, 2006, 03:49 PM

Just a quick comment on public housing in Hawaii. My understanding is that the waiting list is between 2 to 5 years so it is not a viable solution for the people who lost their house in the short term.

In Febuary 1997, my 17 year old son became the head of household when my husband died. I suffered a stroke. He and his siblings took care of me. He applied for Public Housing. At the time, we were living at the Kokea Women & Children Homeless Shelter in Kapalama.

Because it was considered a Homeless Facility, we were automatically put on the top of the list. We waited less than six months for a three bedroom unit at MWH where I still remain today.

My children all have left for greener pastures. I remain here at my choosing.

Times have changed since 1997. The waiting list, is as you say. Being Homeless does not guarrantee being put up on a list or given special considerations.

Personally, I am in a comfort zone where I can afford my rent. My children have asked me to live with them at their homes...but I no like. I enjoy my independence to much. I can visit them anytime I like. :D

Living in Public Housing is not easy. But that's another topic.

It's easy to talk and say this and that about things. It's all whole different story when one has lived it! :rolleyes:

Auntie Lynn

glossyp

May 9th, 2006, 03:57 PM

It's easy to talk and say this and that about things. It's all whole different story when one has lived it! :rolleyes:

Auntie Lynn

And that's why your input is so valuable. You do live it and you share your thoughts and experiences. It helps all of us.
Mahalo, Auntie Lynn!

1stwahine

May 9th, 2006, 04:07 PM

And that's why your input is so valuable. You do live it and you share your thoughts and experiences. It helps all of us.
Mahalo, Auntie Lynn!

Glossyp, Sometimes people ask me why I give and share so much of my personal and private information. I tell them, from all the hardships, experiences, pain, happiness, etc., I have encountered in my Life...

if I can help one person, teach, or save another...

then I am doing my Purpose.

The God I believe in ~ is Awesome. I give him the Honor and the Glory.

Mahalo for your kind words today.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/1stwahine/cinco.jpg
Auntie Lynn Vasquez of MWH! ;)