Pidgin Lessons

[DakineSlider]

Seeking lessons in preferably Melanesian Pidgin. Legit teachers only please. Let me know if you might be able to help. Aloha.

[GypsyLika]

Seeking lessons in preferably Melanesian Pidgin. Legit teachers only please. Let me know if you might be able to help. Aloha.

I think da best way to learn it is by total immersion. But maybe its just me. Its a matter of listening really hard and knowing a few of the their words and slangs.

I know when people ask me to teach them something in pidgin its comes out awkward because its outta context and there's no flow; so to speak. Ok, I think its just me. :D

Oh sorry ~ I'm no help; I should have said that first. Not a legit teacher either. Although I did teach high school English for one semester. :eek: Thats only funny if you knew my first language was straight up Pidgin from back in da day. Eh, no laff. :)

[timkona]

Pidgin is useful, and fun, and cute, and a uniting force, and all the other great things.

But without an on/off switch, it is a handicap. Social mores for the use of pidgin do exist. But some never learned when or where or how to speak any other language.

[manoasurfer123]

Pidgin is useful, and fun, and cute, and a uniting force, and all the other great things.

But without an on/off switch, it is a handicap. Social mores for the use of pidgin do exist. But some never learned when or where or how to speak any other language.
A person with a higher knowledge of linguistics would really shoot you down on this whole thought!

I remember from my linguistics teacher... he spoke in front of our class and said that "pidgin" can be classified as an official language!

I thought to myself "shoots" I'll take that from a Professor at UH who obviously would know what he was talking about.

[timkona]

I never said pidgin was not a language. In fact, I compared it using "any other language" - inclusive.

[manoasurfer123]

hanicapable those that use it properly...

I'm sorry mr Timkona...

but calling people who choose to use pidgin in the same fashion of "handicap" is offensive .... and I'm not even from here originally.

I never said pidgin was not a language. In fact, I compared it using "any other language" - inclusive.
a handicap?

[SouthKona]

Pidgin is useful, and fun, and cute, and a uniting force, and all the other great things.

But without an on/off switch, it is a handicap. Social mores for the use of pidgin do exist. But some never learned when or where or how to speak any other language.

Timkona, it must be just horrible for you to live in a place where you hold such contempt many of the other residents - especially those born and raised here! Your "high maka-maka" attitude surfaces again.

[timkona]

Just horrible when I'm helpin a family get the house they want.
Just horrible when I'm coachin winners in football.
Just horrible when I'm helping schoolrooms get more computers.
Just horrible when I'm finishing concrete for the church hall foundation.

Hey SK, where you at?

[pzarquon]

Take the personal grudges to Private Message, folks.

Hey, I'm born and raised here, and I feel like I should take pidgin lessons. Rap Reiplinger CDs can only get you so far!

It is a language, a nuanced, complex, colorful, functional, and fun language. Certainly something nice to have in one's repertoire. Absolutely something worthy of study, in terms of origin, linguistic links, and the like -- like any pidgin.

But like many languages, there are venues, regions, and circumstances were it's common, appropriate, welcomed and encouraged, and other places where it causes miscommunication, confusion, or conflict. So to say that someone who only speaks pidgin would find themselves at a disadvantage in some situations is hardly horrible or offensive. It's true. Someone who can converse fluently in both standard English and pidgin, meanwhile, would have some notable advantages.

To try and stamp out or marginalize "Hawaiian creole English" would be a travesty. And no one's suggesting that.

Wanting to understand a pidgin language is understandable, even admirable, and hence the original post. However, DakineSlider was asking about Melanesian Pidgin, with which, it appears so far, no one has any specific experience.

I agree with GypsyLika that the best way to learn any language, pidgin or otherwise, is through total immersion. I can actually approximate local pidgin when in a group where it's just flying fast and furious, but end up tongue tied if I were asked to suddenly demonstrate it in another environment.

[timkona]

Thanks Pz. Is it me, or do I catch a lot of crap here for tellin it like it is?

It has been my experience, in Hawaii, that telling it like it is, blunt & abrasive, with no chaser, is frowned upon heavily. Do you concur? Why do you think that is the way things are here? I got this impression mightily while running for council.

[pzarquon]

Believe it or not, I agree with a lot of what you say, though perhaps not with how you present it. Blunt isn't the issue. Presumption of knowing how "it" is, or what constitutes reality or the truth, is the main Achilles' heel of many otherwise talented rhetoricists.

That said, let's not turn this thread into another one about you and your style. (In other words, folks, don't take the bait... again.) It already isn't answering the question about Melanesian Pidgin, but a reasonable conversation about pidgin could develop if everyone would just lay off the barbs.

[timkona]

Kill The Messenger !!

[Paul]

I saw a show on The Travel Channel about the people of Vanuatu. The pidjin they speak over there is unintelligable to Hawaii pidjin speakers.

[pzarquon]

Well, a pidgin is a class of language, not a specific language. What we call pidgin won't be what Melanesians would call pidgin, or what Vanuatuans (?) would call pidgin. The American Heritage Dictionary says pidgin is:A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages, and is not spoken as a first or native language.So Hawaii's distinct mix of cultures and languages created "Hawaiian creole English," and the mix of languages in other places would create an entirely different animal. They're creations of neccessity that help people understand an area's history, and evolve to continue to serve their basic function, which is to form a bridge between two or more cultures.

Notable is the dictionary statement, though, that a pidgin "is not spoken as a first or native language." I think for some people -- here and elsewhere -- the regional pidgin is all some people can speak. And because of that, face some challenges.

Again, though, pidgin is great to know and be able to converse in as an option.

[Paul]

Predominantly Melanesian, the people speak English, French and Bislama, a form of pidgin. The Ni Vanuatu have populated these islands for centuries and with more than 105 distinctly different cultures and languages still thriving, Vanuatu is recognised as one of the most culturally diverse countries in the world (http://www.janeresture.com/vanuatu/index.htm).

[nachodaddy]

Listen to O-Shen (AKA Jason Hershey). He raps in pidgin he picked up while his parents were missionaries in PNG.

[Jonah K]

It has been my experience, in Hawaii, that telling it like it is, blunt & abrasive, with no chaser, is frowned upon heavily. Do you concur? Why do you think that is the way things are here? I got this impression mightily while running for council.Bluntness and abrasive are heavily frowned upon by most in Hawai'i. Just ask Haunani-Kay Trask... ;)

Now, getting back to the topic at hand, there are probably few qualified Tok Pisin teachers around outside of the PNG and Australia. Here are a couple of resources that might be helpful:
http://tok-pisin.com/
http://www.une.edu.au/langnet/tokpisin.htm

In the PNG, Tok Pisin is an "official" language and most people there would be at a disadvantage if they didn't speak it -- since it's spoken by about 3 million people there (out of a total population of about 4 million) and used in business and government. HCE or "Hawai'i Creole English", on the other hand, has no "official" status and is only spoken by about 500 thousand folks here. Other than being classifed as "pidgins," Tok Pisin and HCE aren't really that comparable.

[Miulang]

Tok Pisin and HCE aren't really that comparable.
I guess that would kinda be like saying you speak Chinese. And then someone would say, yeah, but what dialect? ;) At one point, I thought I wanted to be a linguist (work for the UN), and I started studying those artificial "universal" languages like Esperanto (http://www.esperanto.net/) and Interlingua. You don't hear much about those anymore, but I think they are still used within some parts of the scientific community so that people speaking many different languages can understand each other. I guess you could call Esperanto the scientific version of pidgin.

Miulang

[Nik]

True pidgin is spoken by those who have grown up with it or digested it into their blood over many, many (20+) years. It is part of a lifestyle that must be experienced and come naturally. Sure, books, CDs, and teachers will scratch the surface, but as pzarquon mentioned, such guides will only get you so far. If anything, lessons will ironically blur your understanding of what pidgin is all about.

I am 23 and I grew up on Maui but I very rarely speak pidgin because my lifestyle usually (depending on the moment) interferes with its flow. I have a local accent that is a part of my everyday speech but it's nowhere near actual pidgin.

[Jonah K]

I guess that would kinda be like saying you speak Chinese. And then someone would say, yeah, but what dialect? ;) At one point, I thought I wanted to be a linguist (work for the UN), and I started studying those artificial "universal" languages like Esperanto (http://www.esperanto.net/) and Interlingua. You don't hear much about those anymore, but I think they are still used within some parts of the scientific community so that people speaking many different languages can understand each other. I guess you could call Esperanto the scientific version of pidgin.

Miulang
"Pidgins" and "dialects" are pretty different animals. :D A "pidgin" is a new language developed from two or more languages, while a dialect is simply a regional variation of a standard language. When a "pidgin" acquires a community of native speakers, it becomes a "Creole language." Thus, "Pidgin" in Hawai'i, "Tok Pisin" in the PNG and "Patwa" in Jamaica are technically "Creole languages", not "pidgins." :cool:

In the case of "Chinese", Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, etc., they are probably different enough from each other as to be considered separate languages, rather than dialects of a single language. ;)

[SouthKona]

Thanks Pz. Is it me, or do I catch a lot of crap here for tellin it like it is?

It has been my experience, in Hawaii, that telling it like it is, blunt & abrasive, with no chaser, is frowned upon heavily. Do you concur? Why do you think that is the way things are here? I got this impression mightily while running for council.

In many instances, how you present your thoughts is a distraction to what you are trying to say. You often come across as arrogant, and your message is lost in the mix. Just think of how many additional people you could help to "get a house", "coach", "get computers", etc. (as you've described) if you'd present your thoughts in a less abrasive manner, because it is probable that you've alienated people that you might have otherwise been able to work with.

[1stwahine]

Ahhh.. excuse me. Wat dis thread bout? Pidgin ;)

Can turn it on. Can turn it off.

It depends where one is at. In the real world...you can't get a job talking nor writing "Pidgin!" Yet, it's a part of me...I would never give up. It is who I am. A proud Local Wahine from the Islands I love and cherish ~ Hawaii nei! :D

Pidgin? Wat badda you? Don't let it! :rolleyes:

Auntie Lynn

[SouthKona]

Yes, being able to speak pidgin as well as "standard English" is indeed a valuable asset, but the assumption that an "only" pidgin speaker is doomed to failure is inaccurate. Just ask any of the pidgin-only-speakers in my neighborhood that enjoy life, family, employment or retirement, and owning their own homes. :D

[LikaNui]

I'm the #2 person at our company, which has recently hired a new #1 person. He's from California and has only vacationed here a couple of times. Most of our staff (and many of our clients and vendors) speak heavy Pidgin, so this poor guy is gonna be some kind of lost! I expect there to be a few dozen times per day that he asks me "What did they say?" :p

[KaiShiro]

Sup, this my first post. :D

Anyways, I remember when I was a kid in 3rd grade my kumu in my Hawaiiana class said that Hawaiians used to speak with fluent perfect English before the immigrants came. I remember she said if you want to speak local to learn Hawaiian. She was strict on this. She was like, pidgin is NOT Hawaiian. I was looking to find a site on pidgin history and found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Pidgin . I knew Portuguese had a influence but I didn't know it had much.

I took a surf trip to France and Portugal in 97 and I will never forget the similarities in Portuguese that sound like pidgin. I remember we were in the country side taking pictures of the mountain and beach and I thought I heard "WHAT YOU FAKA!" I turned around and it was a Portuguese guy angry that we were on his property. I forgot the translation but each time he said it sounded like "WHAT YOU FAKA!". lol

When I was eating at a restaurant I remember this guy on the side of me he was saying something that sounded like "da faka" it was weird because I thought he was talking about me (dat faka).

Depends on who I talk to. Like if i'm talking to a haole person (mainland kine) I speak standard English but when I just kicking back with with friends I dont worry about what I say. I do it for them because they are quick to judge sometimes. Laters :cool:

[1stwahine]

I'm the #2 person at our company, which has recently hired a new #1 person. He's from California and has only vacationed here a couple of times. Most of our staff (and many of our clients and vendors) speak heavy Pidgin, so this poor guy is gonna be some kind of lost! I expect there to be a few dozen times per day that he asks me "What did they say?" :p

Just tell him...ALOHA!!!! :p

Auntie Lynn :D

[kimo55]

jezz tell him alooooha ha ha ha ha

[pzarquon]

At a previous job, we had several international students as interns, and a new batch would rotate through the office every semester. Bringing them up to speed on some of the more common pidgin phrases was always fun. More interesting were conversations with those that were into linguistics who could point out some of the similarities in syntax and the like with other languages. From, "Big, da house!" to the rise-then-drop tonal shift that indicated a question... it was amazing just how structured a seemingly basic language turned out to be.

So, yeah, if pidgin is indeed a language unto itself, it makes sense that it's hard for others to understand. Heck, on some of the short-lived set-in-Hawaii TV shows, pidgin was both watered down and still subtitled to be absolutely sure John Q. Mainland could follow along. Even "Dog the Bounty Hunter" subtitles a lot of the pidgin... even though what Duane utters barely qualifies!

[Pomai]

One of the funniest local TV news broadcasts I ever seen was simply an interview with an elder Filipino man (tata). He obviously was fron the Philippines and had a strong Ilocano accent, but if you were raised in Hawaii, you could EASILY understand him. Still, the producer decided to throw subtitles with his commentary.

I just thought to myself, "How can someone NOT understand him? I sure do!". The compounded part of his strong accent with the subtitles left me laughing for the rest of the broadcast. Funny! :D

If a local news station ever subtitles someone interviewed speaking pidgin... man.. that would take the cake!

[tutusue]

I saw a wonderful documentary, "Happy Birthday, Tutu Ruth" (http://www.piccom.org/shop.php) , that was produced during the mid-1990s. It chronicled Tutu's difficult life on the Big Island where, at the time, she was about to celebrate her 90th birthday and was still working in the taro fields. She spoke heavy pidgin; still, something most of us who've lived in Hawaii for a long time could understand. The documentary had sub-titles throughout! I got the biggest kick out of that but also understood that it would be screening at various film festivals on the mainland. With sub-titles it also had more of a foreign entry appeal!

[manoasurfer123]

Kimo55... wut? u wen help rit dis artikle?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_on_re_us/simpl_wurdz

Manoa?

[kimo55]

no comment.

[willywhit]

Ahhh.. excuse me. Wat dis thread bout? Pidgin ;)

Can turn it on. Can turn it off.

It depends where one is at. In the real world...you can't get a job talking nor writing "Pidgin!" Yet, it's a part of me...I would never give up. It is who I am. A proud Local Wahine from the Islands I love and cherish ~ Hawaii nei! :D

Pidgin? Wat badda you? Don't let it! :rolleyes:

Auntie LynnWhere can you find some audio of common pidgin phrases ? Pidgin is very cool stuff. My wife is from Brasil and I can truly appreciate local culture and it's slang. Lived in Oahu for only 3 months but soaked up plenny culcha.

[pzarquon]

Hmm... audio samples? I'm sure pidgin conversations have been recorded for scholarly, linguistic purposes, but I gotta say, the first thing that pops into my mind is Rap Reiplinger. After a couple of listens through "The Best of Rap (http://www.mele.com/music/artist/rap+reiplinger/the+best+of+rap/)," even I think I can speak pidgin. ("Russell! You get pen?")

To learn more, though, there's always books. Lee Tonouchi recently put out a decent contemporary pidgin reference, "Da Kine Dictionary (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573061360/)." We picked up a copy at Costco. Still, you can't forget the classic, "Pidgin to the Max (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/093584841X/)." Of course, for a more academic view, there's "Pidgin Grammar (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573061697/)" by a language instructor at UH. (Did you know there was a "Center for Pidgin, Creole and Dialect Studies"?)

[Miulang]

Where can you find some audio of common pidgin phrases ? Pidgin is very cool stuff. My wife is from Brasil and I can truly appreciate local culture and it's slang. Lived in Oahu for only 3 months but soaked up plenny culcha.
Get plenny kine books lidat out there. One called "Pidgin to da Max (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/093584841X/002-7765369-1472853?v=glance&n=283155)" and one followup among others. Google "books about Hawaiian pidgin" and you come up wit some moa.

Miulang

[kimo55]

Russow. you GET PEnnn!?

[drumorgan]

After a couple of listens through "The Best of Rap (http://www.mele.com/music/artist/rap+reiplinger/the+best+of+rap/),"

Is it too late for the screen name Johnny Okole? :D

[timkona]

Has anybody ever subtitled using pidgin to explain English ?

[kimo55]

sure as heyall hope not pardnuh.

[D'Alani]

Where can you find some audio of common pidgin phrases ? Pidgin is very cool stuff. My wife is from Brasil and I can truly appreciate local culture and it's slang. Lived in Oahu for only 3 months but soaked up plenny culcha.

Look for any of K.K.Kaumanua's (aka Ken Bowman) recording and you will get an understanding of pidgin.

[TuNnL]

Hoo, brah! So far less den 10 percent of da comments hea stay focused on the topic which is Melanesian Pidgin. How you going ack? You tink you know sumten but you nevah stop fo ask — Eh, maybe da bruddah already knows Hawai‘i Pidgin, and he trying fo compare da differences wit Melanesia ... so maybe I should try listen instead of wala‘au all da time. ‘Auwe no ho‘i!

[willywhit]

Hmm... audio samples? I'm sure pidgin conversations have been recorded for scholarly, linguistic purposes, but I gotta say, the first thing that pops into my mind is Rap Reiplinger. After a couple of listens through "The Best of Rap (http://www.mele.com/music/artist/rap+reiplinger/the+best+of+rap/)," even I think I can speak pidgin. ("Russell! You get pen?")

To learn more, though, there's always books. Lee Tonouchi recently put out a decent contemporary pidgin reference, "Da Kine Dictionary (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573061360/)." We picked up a copy at Costco. Still, you can't forget the classic, "Pidgin to the Max (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/093584841X/)." Of course, for a more academic view, there's "Pidgin Grammar (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573061697/)" by a language instructor at UH. (Did you know there was a "Center for Pidgin, Creole and Dialect Studies"?)
Great stuff, mahalo.

[Johanna]

"Pidgins" and "dialects" are pretty different animals. A "pidgin" is a new language developed from two or more languages, while a dialect is simply a regional variation of a standard language. When a "pidgin" acquires a community of native speakers, it becomes a "Creole language." Thus, "Pidgin" in Hawai'i, "Tok Pisin" in the PNG and "Patwa" in Jamaica are technically "Creole languages", not "pidgins."

In the case of "Chinese", Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, etc., they are probably different enough from each other as to be considered separate languages, rather than dialects of a single language.

Well, all the Chinese people (if they're literate, of course:)), no matter whether they speak Mandarin or Cantonese can read the same books. The writing is 100% the same, the Characters and their meaning are, and the grammar. But not the sound!! So if you are from Beijing and go to Hongkong, you will have a really hard time understanding anything people say. You can still read everything and understand it... advertisements, itineraries, menues.. So in a way, they are totally different, but the Chinese' s culture has been based on writing for thousands of years. The phonology has developed, but the writing is basically the same (besides the simplification of the characters in the cultural revolution -which makes it hard to derive sometimes ethymologically For instance: Old:馬 New: 马). So I think the Chinese languages are (unintelligable) dialects of a single language. It's like somebody from northern Germany not being able to understand a Swiss guy cause da guy talk so cute and funny!! And believe me, it is a strong dialect! :eek: Still get da same books..:) One language