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mel June 24th, 2006 04:56 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
This is the train that is going to take taxpayer money deeper into hell.

Next thing they are going to do is come and take away land from the unfortunate landowners that may be near the route through the use of eminent domain.

Also no one is talking about how much the actual vehicles (train) is going to cost, much less the maintenance and operation of the system. We already have to use property taxes to pay for subsidizing The Bus. People are screaming about high property taxes and now the city has made a one time adjustment to give homeowners a break but transfer the burden to commercial property owners. I guess no one thinks that just like the GE tax increase, those kind of business transfers get passed on to the end user (consumers, you and me) through higher prices for everything we buy.

When is the madness of more taxes, more cost, more government and mess transit is going to end?

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Let Honolulu Vote

kimo55 June 24th, 2006 05:08 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mel
Next thing they are going to do is come and take away land from the unfortunate landowners that may be near the route through the use of eminent domain.

I hate seeing this happen. all for the public good. private land owner has a ranch near Chinaman's hat.
Stolen away from them for public park.
Homeless hselter will be displacing many small businesses at river and beretania. all for the "public good".
Liliha redevelopment will completely destroy the look and small town Old Hawaii feel of the place. It will nothing more than resemble a stripmall in the el lay valley. and many businesse will be forced to shut down. buildings and residences taken away from owners and renters.
This yuppification of all parts of Hawaii... hate to see it.

Creative-1 June 25th, 2006 04:27 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pomai
Was it Mayor Hanneman who recently proposed raising the GET this year to 4.5%? As if THAT would even make a dent in $4.5 Bijilliroonz.

"takes toothpick out of mouth now to sigh*

Just don't run that rail here in Hawaii Kai. Waste $$$. Most of the affluent folks here (me not included) will still drive their own car to work.


Yes, Pomai, da Mayor proposed 4.5%. They sensed the public's unwillingness for such an increase and decided to do it in multiple stages, starting with a 1/4%.

That would be enough for road solutions. HOT lanes would even pay for themselves and carry more people than a rail line.

The average rail system in the US only attracts 5% of commuters. Honolulu planners this week projected it would
serve 120,000 to 150,000 riders per day. That's 25-40% of commuters.

New York has the highest ridership, but still only gets 15% of commuters. They have stations every 1/4 mile. Everyone lives and works within walking distance of the 5 lines that traverse Manhatten.

How can they think one Leeward line in an area wider than Manhatten will attract that many riders???

LikaNui June 26th, 2006 07:12 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
New renderings were just posted at this link.
After looking at them, I just want to know where the station will be to get off for Adventureland and Tomorrowland and the Matterhorn.
:rolleyes:

Miulang June 26th, 2006 07:18 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LikaNui
New renderings were just posted at this link.
After looking at them, I just want to know where the station will be to get off for Adventureland and Tomorrowland and the Matterhorn.
:rolleyes:

Remember that chase scene in the "French Connection"? All I can picture is some crack-addicted lolo leading the HPD on a wild ride through the pillars...kinda like a slalom obstacle course. People do it sometimes under the Seattle Monorail. :eek:

Miulang

P.S. One thing the proponents of this mode of transportation need to consider is how long it's going to take to build. As an example, the first time the Seattle voters authorized the establishment of an expanded Monorail system, the price tag was like $3 billion (this was in the early 90s). By the time all the land was acquired (yes, through eminent domain) and after a series of raucous public meetings in 2005, the monorail authority sheepishly admitted that they had "underestimated" the total cost of the 26 mile line. So they went back to the drawing board and came up with a line that was only 13 miles long, didn't really go where it needed to go and said, "oh by the way, the price tag for the 13-mile line is going to be $13 billion. At that point, the taxpayers of Seattle said enough is enough and through a referendum, soundly killed the expanded Monorail line. In the meantime, I paid $1500 in car tab surcharges over 3 years to get nothing in return, and the County had a debt of $3 billion. They sold all the land they acquired and made money on the sale, so it allowed them to retire the debt this past April. But we still got nothing.

craigwatanabe June 26th, 2006 07:42 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LikaNui
New renderings were just posted at this link.
After looking at them, I just want to know where the station will be to get off for Adventureland and Tomorrowland and the Matterhorn.
:rolleyes:


Those look like the same before and after pictures I saw in my earlier link.

mel June 27th, 2006 03:03 AM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Miulang
As an example, the first time the Seattle voters authorized the establishment of an expanded Monorail system, the price tag was like $3 billion (this was in the early 90s). By the time all the land was acquired (yes, through eminent domain) and after a series of raucous public meetings in 2005, the monorail authority sheepishly admitted that they had "underestimated" the total cost of the 26 mile line. So they went back to the drawing board and came up with a line that was only 13 miles long, didn't really go where it needed to go and said, "oh by the way, the price tag for the 13-mile line is going to be $13 billion. At that point, the taxpayers of Seattle said enough is enough and through a referendum, soundly killed the expanded Monorail line.

And that is one good thing you folks did in Seattle. You have referndum to put this kind of stuff to a public vote. We don't. We should. Something this big should never be left only to the politicians. The people should vote on whether or not we want to fund and build a rail with our tax dollar.

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Let Honolulu Vote

Arriflexer July 26th, 2006 03:53 AM

Rail Transit
 
What does everyone think about the whole mass transit issue?

I think it is long over due to be built. As long as the dumb ass politicians have the guts to take it where it needs to go.

Anyway what is the big mystery anyway... everyone in Hawaii goes to Disney Land once a year anyway.... the Monrail there is fast, QUIET, and cool looking. If we had something like that.... with surf racks on it..... start building it tomorrow.

Bard July 26th, 2006 09:34 AM

Re: Manao Rail System
 
I heard about this the first time about a month ago, as my wife was there for a transit conference. We have light rail here and it rocks. So much nicer than a bus. Nearness to the new line that just went in was one of the reasons we bought our current house. Between that and biking we fill up our car tanks about once a month now, which sure is nice with the prices the way they are.

Miulang July 26th, 2006 10:55 AM

Re: Manao Rail System
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bard
I heard about this the first time about a month ago, as my wife was there for a transit conference. We have light rail here and it rocks. So much nicer than a bus. Nearness to the new line that just went in was one of the reasons we bought our current house. Between that and biking we fill up our car tanks about once a month now, which sure is nice with the prices the way they are.

Yes, I have to agree, MAX is a very nice system. It was planned out very well and appears to have been accepted by lots of locals (parking in downtown Portland sucks anyway! ;) ). In Seattle, we had incompetents planning the expansion of the monorail within the City of Seattle, but our new intercity light rail system is almost ready to roll, after inconveniencing lots of people for over 3 years now. It'll probably be used by people who now sit on the freeways for hours trying to travel 30 miles to work.

Miulang

admin July 26th, 2006 11:29 AM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Several prior threads are available for background. See also:

mel July 26th, 2006 12:29 PM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Recently from Honolulu Traffic.com's website:

Quote:


July 20, 2006.

Neighborhood Boards can take action on rail:


Neighborhood Board members are beginning to take notice of the negative impacts that rail transit will have on their communities both from being a financial drain and a producer of visual and noise blight. To help in this effort we have posted, with Senator Fred Hemmings' help, a proforma resolution below that could be adopted by any Neighborhood Board.


Waikiki Neighborhood Board turns down rail:

Last week's meeting of the Waikiki Neighborhood turned down rail in Waikiki with a vote of 15-1.



July 19, 2006.

Parsons Brinckerhoff concedes $4 billion + for rail:

During a presentation today to the annual Kailua Chamber of Commerce luncheon, Parsons Brinckerhoff's Lawrence Spurgeon said that the earlier $3 billion projection for rail transit given last month did not include a number of items such as trains and rights-of-way. He said that by the time all the costs were included the final price would be in excess of $4 billion.

He also revealed that they had a preliminary estimate of $1 billion for a 13-mile, two-lane HOT lanes (aka Managed Lanes) alternative, or $38 million per lane-mile. While that is a dramatic reduction from earlier city estimates of $100 million per lane-mile it is still far in excess of the $15 million per lane-mile that Tampa has cost.

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Bard July 26th, 2006 01:01 PM

Re: Manao Rail System
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Miulang
Yes, I have to agree, MAX is a very nice system. It was planned out very well and appears to have been accepted by lots of locals (parking in downtown Portland sucks anyway! ;) ).

Actually many locals fought against it tooth and nail, and some still do when a new line is getting ready to go in. Give it a few months, and people almost always turn around and talk about how great it is. :rolleyes:

Even my parents are starting to come around. They were always happy there was no public transit in their suburb of Dallas because "it keeps the undesirables from living there". Now when we come visit we can get about 70% of the way from the airport to their house (a good hour trip each way!) on rail and they still have to come pick us up from about 20 minutes away.

joshuatree October 31st, 2006 01:40 PM

latest transit price tag
 
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...WS09/610310344

http://starbulletin.com/2006/10/31/news/story01.html

Does this change people's position on for or against the rail?

mapen October 31st, 2006 08:51 PM

Re: Rail Transit
 
I am opposed to rail in Honolulu. I think the money could be better spent fixing the current bottlenecks, which are H-1 at Middle St. and H-1/Moanalua Frwy at Aloha stadium.

To address the Middle St. bottleneck, we can convert Dillingham Blvd and part of Vineyard Blvd into an expressway. That would create an entirely new expressway from the H-1 Vineyard off-ramp to the H-1 airport viaduct.

Second, to address the Aloha stadium bottleneck, we need a new expressway running from the Ewa end of the H-1 viaduct that would go under or over Pearl Harbor to Ewa Beach and then on to Kapolei.

These projects are doable for 4 billion dollars, and will serve alot more people than a rail system that will serve only a minority population of Oahu.

New expressways will benefit the extreme majority of citizens who choose to own a car and prefer to own a car. Not to mention our tourists who rent a car to see the sites and go to the beach. It will also benefit mass transit riders since TheBus can use the new less congestred roads. Also, new highways will benfit commerce and industry where rail will do nothing for them.

I think Mufi is blinded by the "roads and cars are evil" mindset.

damontucker October 31st, 2006 09:49 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
I'm scared what will happen when people do become dependant on the Proposed system... and then the thing goes down for a week or so?

Anyone know how many "Trams" will be going each way at a time?

damontucker October 31st, 2006 09:51 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mel (Post 79453)
And that is one good thing you folks did in Seattle. You have referndum to put this kind of stuff to a public vote. We don't. We should. Something this big should never be left only to the politicians. The people should vote on whether or not we want to fund and build a rail with our tax dollar.

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Let Honolulu Vote

I know that there is a part of Underground railsystem that takes you to Sea-Tac Airport from a few points in Seattle...and that is pretty cool!
You get a link Miulang or Leo?

GeckoGeek November 1st, 2006 03:13 AM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mapen (Post 112239)
I think the money could be better spent fixing the current bottlenecks, which are H-1 at Middle St. and H-1/Moanalua Frwy at Aloha stadium.

I think a good way to address that is to close Moanalua Frwy. Yes, I'm serious. It's the merging of Moanalua Frwy with H-1 that creates the bottleneck. Merging is a serious problem. I would propose closing H-1, but I don't think that would work, so I'm suggesting Moanalua instead. Of course you need to widen H-1 so it's at least 3 lanes all the way.

The next step is to improve the off ramps so they can take what the freeway delivers.

mel November 1st, 2006 04:19 AM

Re: Rail Transit
 
If you are opposed to the rail project and the increased taxes (set to kick in a mere 61 days), go to HonoluluTraffic.com. Read the information and sign up as a supporter for "no rail."

Or simply email your name to join@honolulutraffic.com

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Bard November 1st, 2006 11:56 AM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mapen (Post 112239)
I think Mufi is blinded by the "roads and cars are evil" mindset.

Take a look at Europe -- covered in rail. Most people I know love going to Europe because they don't have to rent a car. More cars and more roads *are* evil in a lot of ways.

On the other hand... .5% GET increase. Yowza. That's one heck of an expensive project they're proposing.

joshuatree November 1st, 2006 05:17 PM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bard (Post 112348)
Take a look at Europe -- covered in rail. Most people I know love going to Europe because they don't have to rent a car. More cars and more roads *are* evil in a lot of ways.

On the other hand... .5% GET increase. Yowza. That's one heck of an expensive project they're proposing.

I'd say take the project to an even bigger level. Don't just make it a public transit infrastructure project but make it an urban development project. They should plan to build low income condos right on top of certain stations. The income from selling or renting out the units would help defray the cost of the transit. And by placing homes right at the stations, you're encouraging people to avoid/give up car ownership. And they should allow advertising to be done only at the stations. Given that Oahu pretty much has a ban on outdoor advertising (no billboards etc), there's bound to be a market for advertising. That's another source of revenue you can get. Even sell naming rights to stations to corporate sponsers. This is one of those projects that won't succeed unless you've hit critical mass. :cool:

sinjin November 1st, 2006 05:40 PM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Never listen to seniors when it comes to long term infrastructure investment. The train might prove to have been a great idea for twenty years or more. Don't want to be like Los Angeles? Build the train.

Bard November 1st, 2006 06:32 PM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuatree (Post 112412)
I'd say take the project to an even bigger level. Don't just make it a public transit infrastructure project but make it an urban development project. They should plan to build low income condos right on top of certain stations.

I dunno about "low income" but the urban development thing will happen without any pushes. It did here. Outside of the city center there's practically a huge splotch* of condos and apartments at every single MAX station. They also tend to grow little shopping centers and have farmers' markets periodically and so on... really cool. Out in the 'burbs the housing tends to be fairly cheap compared to city-center stuff.


* My made up word for the day. :)

joshuatree November 1st, 2006 06:42 PM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bard (Post 112431)
I dunno about "low income" but the urban development thing will happen without any pushes. It did here. Outside of the city center there's practically a huge splotch* of condos and apartments at every single MAX station. They also tend to grow little shopping centers and have farmers' markets periodically and so on... really cool. Out in the 'burbs the housing tends to be fairly cheap compared to city-center stuff.


* My made up word for the day. :)

The reason I would suggest the gov't to plan the "low income" condos is to help defray the cost of the rail itself. Not to mention address the lack of affordable housing too. There's no doubt private developers will come in and build their real estate projects around the stations but all the money made there goes back to private developers. If the gov't steps in and does the real estate development, the money made there can be applied to the cost of the rail. If the gov't owns the little shopping centers, the rent money paid by tenants goes back to the rail bill. People are flipping out over the price tag right now so I'm just tossing out creative ideas in paying for it. :D

Bard November 1st, 2006 07:40 PM

Re: Rail Transit
 
Yeah, I hear ya... they got a bunch of federal funding for the rail here, they have a flat fare system that is pretty expensive for short distances (it's got 3 zones, and going within two zones for 2 hours costs you $1.70 no matter how far you go, and 3 zones are $1.95 I think). The rail and bus are all integrated so they share profits and problems, which has sucked for us rail-only commuters lately -- every time the gas prices go up the rail tickets rise to fund the buses. There's also a (relatively small) business income tax that goes to the public transit. They might have some kicked in from state taxes as well, I can't remember.

It definitely isn't cheap, but I can tell you that it's changing the city here in some very good ways.


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