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Ron Whitfield June 24th, 2013 12:26 AM

Snowden/NSA
 
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-world-sn...032606031.html
"We have proper avenues for whistleblowers to make their case, he should just turn himself in and take the consequences if he's really a concerned patriot"... blah blah. Right, all our Dems and cons want this guy dead, yet they say he shouldn't have gone to China, Russia, etc. to stay alive and get the word out. It's about salvaging freedom of the press and our media goober heads are all against him.

lensperson June 24th, 2013 04:06 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
These events are hardly surprising.

Bamford wrote a good book on the topic.

Within treaty law the rest areas are a sort of neutral zone.

The capsule hotels there are actually pretty comfortable.


After days of shuttling about on private jets, such a refuge seems be nice.

Havana has a nice climate and after all,

The blowback might be too much .




:)

Kalalau June 24th, 2013 05:19 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Funny, I am not coming down on Snowden's side on this. We talked about it before: it is a cruel world, there are bad people with evil intents, as 9 11 and other events show. As important as the right to privacy is, all rights have their limits. When the gvt says monitoring has prevented additional terrorist attacks that claim can't be dismissed out of hand. Like everything else there needs to be balance. Snowden as an employee of a contractor seems to have had minimal security screening, I find it hard to believe a dedicated agent would have been so negligent of the true need for national security. So the fault is with the gvt contracting out such sensitive work and failing to supervise the contractors. I can't help but wonder if the cost of such necessary and realistic supervision has been a victim of our dysfunctional congress's insistence on tax cuts for billionaires. Its so sad but you actually do need to spend money, thats what it exists for, and supervising such contractors seems like just such a necessary expenditure. In Snowden the marketplace seems to have delivered unsatisfactory quality.

GregLee June 24th, 2013 01:15 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Ou sont les Snowdens d'antan?

Ron Whitfield June 24th, 2013 08:02 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalalau (Post 283898)
When the gvt says monitoring has prevented additional terrorist attacks that claim can't be dismissed out of hand.

Snowden as an employee of a contractor seems to have had minimal security screening, I find it hard to believe a dedicated agent would have been so negligent of the true need for national security.

So the fault is with the gvt contracting out such sensitive work and failing to supervise the contractors.

In Snowden the marketplace seems to have delivered unsatisfactory quality.

It can't be trusted either.
Dick Cheney has steadfastly lied that torture saved America when in fact his rouge CIA agents failed to get anything like the FBI got using humane tactics. Virtually everybody in our Gmt. and media is rabid over getting this guy. Sickening.

He hasn't done anything except clue the citizens of the US into what the terrorists have known for years. That's why they're mad as hell and want his head. No National security wasn harmed in the release of this info.

How can they supervise the thousands who have the same types of clearance?

I'd say we need millions more like him.
As he's said, he's just a regular guy who saw things that were wrong and needed to be known, and he had the ability to do it even at high costs to him.


I salute his ultimate patriotism and guts.

GregLee June 24th, 2013 10:39 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield (Post 283903)
Dick Cheney has steadfastly lied that torture saved America when in fact his rouge CIA agents failed to get anything like the FBI got using humane tactics.

But if torture had saved America from some attack, that would have been A-OK with you, right? The only problem with torture is that it doesn't work very well to extract correct information.
Quote:

He [Snowden] hasn't done anything except clue the citizens of the US into what the terrorists have known for years.
So what counts is not whether we know the US government is violating the rights of its citizens, but whether the terrorists know. If the terrorists didn't already know about it, it would be okay to lock up Snowden for telling us and them both about it.
Quote:

How can they supervise the thousands who have the same types of clearance?
But if with more effective supervision, our government could effectively keep it a secret that it violates our rights, then it would be okay to violate them.

Does anything strike you as peculiar about these arguments you're making?

lensperson June 25th, 2013 03:16 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Excellent perspectives from all posters.

If the prism device had been in place in the 1700s

the American Revolution would have been nipped in the bud.

They would have grabbed Paul Revere.
:)
------
Chris

Walkoff Balk June 25th, 2013 04:25 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
That's a big playing field to play hide & seek.

Kalalau June 25th, 2013 07:55 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
I am kind of frustrated with the hypocrisy of my reaction. I totally supported Daniel Ellsberg blowing the whistle on the goofiness of the Vietnam War. In that case secrecy was being used to hide evil, in this case maybe not. The point that everybody who had an interest in knowing the gvt was spying already knew is probably correct. Thats why bin Laden went to such lengths to avoid leaving an electronic trail. Yet if the spying doesn't do any good why does the gvt claim it does, and why does the gvt even do it? Maybe just keeping the pressure on makes evil plots that much more difficult to pull off.

GregLee June 25th, 2013 11:47 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalalau (Post 283911)
The point that everybody who had an interest in knowing the gvt was spying already knew is probably correct.

Well, we didn't know, right? So apparently you're saying that we didn't have any legitimate interest in knowing that our government was spying on us.
Quote:

Yet if the spying doesn't do any good why does the gvt claim it does, and why does the gvt even do it?
Obviously, the government claims the spying has been pretty darn wonderful in order to justify its actions. What is it going to say? That the violation of our rights was pointless? Why did Cheney say he had pursued his previous policy of torture? Because he liked to hear the screams?

Why does the government spy on us? There must be a good reason, because, as we know from the past, the government always has good reasons for everything it does. NOT.

Kalalau June 25th, 2013 12:41 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
The gvt claims its spying helped bust up more 9 11 type plots. The claim can't be dismissed out of hand, they may be right and from our vantage point we just can't tell. I am a lot more likely to accept what the Obama administration says because it never established a track record of lying like Bush did, Bush was reliably unreliable, you could depend on him to lie. Worst I can say for Obama is a few errors but not deliberate mass lying. Bin Laden went to great lengths to not leave an electronic trail, that says something. He could only be found with on the ground informants

Ron Whitfield June 25th, 2013 07:21 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 283905)
But if torture had saved America from some attack, that would have been A-OK with you, right? The only problem with torture is that it doesn't work very well to extract correct information.

So what counts is not whether we know the US government is violating the rights of its citizens, but whether the terrorists know. If the terrorists didn't already know about it, it would be okay to lock up Snowden for telling us and them both about it. But if with more effective supervision, our government could effectively keep it a secret that it violates our rights, then it would be okay to violate them.

You might want to re-read my post, Greg, I'm not promoting torture. And while I might be glad US lives were saved in most any way I'm not about to sanction torture or civil rights violations.

But... the bad guys HAVE known for years, we are just too busy with American Idol to bother knowing our best interests.

GregLee June 25th, 2013 09:28 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield (Post 283915)
You might want to re-read my post, Greg, I'm not promoting torture.

I read your post carefully. You never said anything about torture being wrong. You argued only that torture was ineffective. I guess you don't realize that this does promote torture for those that happen to disagree with you on factual grounds and think it works, or who think that they have discovered more effective methods of torture than those previously used.

Ron Whitfield June 25th, 2013 10:21 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
To be clear...
Torture is wrong and fails to get credibly consistant value.

lensperson June 26th, 2013 03:38 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

It's the Golden Rule.

What goes around comes around.

---------

" I say we had better look our nation searchingly in the face,

like a physician diagnosing some deep disease "

Walt Whitman

Walkoff Balk June 30th, 2013 03:52 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
http://techinamerica.com/2013/06/26/...flight-booked/

I wonder what movie he saw that he would live at an airport.

Kaonohi June 30th, 2013 03:59 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
I guess it all depends on whether you trust your own government.

Do you?

I haven't seen much trustworthy coming out of our government in many years.

lensperson June 30th, 2013 05:49 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
The most informed as to this sort of situation are usually service staff.

The capsule hotel has cooks, bellboys and janitors.

Those folks would no doubt know a lot.

After all, thats their job.

:)

Kalalau July 1st, 2013 11:11 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Some commentator pointed out that people in the past who have engaged in civil disobedience accepted jail as consequence of their acts. Ellsberg, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and others all disobeyed authority but accepted the consequences. Snowden does not.

On the plus side for him, it is good that US allies have now been informed that the US was spying on them, too. As a general rule, doing what the USSR did has never been a good idea.

lensperson July 2nd, 2013 04:14 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
It is an unfortunate world that closes its boundaries to sleuths.

Truth is a gas that will always leak out eventually.

Hopefully the presence of numerous correspondents in the wild

will encourage cheaper room service.

:)

Vanguard July 5th, 2013 06:37 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Edward Snowden Poll Finds More Americans Now Think He Did The Wrong Thing

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

― Malcolm X

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalalau (Post 283994)
Some commentator pointed out that people in the past who have engaged in civil disobedience accepted jail as consequence of their acts. Ellsberg, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and others all disobeyed authority but accepted the consequences. Snowden does not.

On the plus side for him, it is good that US allies have now been informed that the US was spying on them, too. As a general rule, doing what the USSR did has never been a good idea.

I'd put Mandela on that list, too.

From what I understand, Snowden faces life in prison. After the torture and other inhumane treatment of Bradley Manning, I think there's a legitimate reason to be adverse to facing the music. He already gave up a great life to disclose all this, and I'm surprised that relatively few Americans even care that the freedoms our forefathers fought and died for are being compromised. And they aren't just being compromised by government agents, they're being compromised by private corporate contractors. In this case, they entrusted a great deal of privilege to a high school dropout.

Facing the apathy of Americans from a Moscow airport, possibly for the rest of his life, should be more than sufficient punishment (in the context of those who believe Snowden should have faced criminal charges in the USA). If they want to prosecute the man, then I think Director of National Intelligence James Clapper should be prosecuted for perjury, too. If we want to prosecute people who broke "the law", or even the color of law, then let's prosecute everyone who did so, not just the ones who didn't agree with the agenda of secret surveillance (with the aid of private corporate corporations).

Best case scenario: Snowden is either exonerated, or given a light sentence, along with James Clapper; and our intelligence gathering apparatus, etc. is severely reformed.

matapule July 5th, 2013 09:48 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Vanguard, it is good to hear from you. Where have you been?

Vanguard July 5th, 2013 10:20 PM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by matapule (Post 284060)
Vanguard, it is good to hear from you. Where have you been?

It's good to hear from you too, Matapule. :) I am glad you and others here are still posting!

I've been incredibly busy! While I wouldn't call it good busy, it was most certainly educational.

I'm going to need an outstanding vacation when I'm totally out of the woods. :eek:

Kaonohi July 6th, 2013 01:05 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanguard (Post 284059)
Best case scenario: Snowden is either exonerated, or given a light sentence, along with James Clapper; and our intelligence gathering apparatus, etc. is severely reformed.

Since when is telling the truth a punishable offense? Oh, right, when it flows against the status quo.

GregLee July 6th, 2013 01:42 AM

Re: Snowden/NSA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaonohi (Post 284062)
Since when is telling the truth a punishable offense? Oh, right, when it flows against the status quo.

No, it's when it's against the law.


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