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  • #91
    Re: Rail Transit

    Originally posted by Karen View Post
    Sinjin.....very expensive? you pay for it one time...to build. Rail? Oh, the maintenace, the repairs! the energy to make the thing RUN!! and it will clutter even more of the island, and people will not use it, sorry but I am not being a smart aleck, it will not catch on, plus our having the bus people, not happening. We all are short for time, rush rush, and so when out, we need to make several stops, redeeming our time. Rail is not going to catch on, I am one of many that won't even bother trying to use it, and maybe, once....I will ride it for pure fun, and then.....I'll know why I am not bothering to use it.

    Double decker highways, then we just have to keep them paved, big deal....and we all get to keep using our own private autos, less germs, no privacy intrusion, Much more time usage, and look, twice the highways! and much less congestion.
    Firstly you must remember that double-decking a highway is like building a bridge the length of the highway. That's costly. No potholes at least as we build bridges with concrete(PCC), not asphalt. There are still maintenance costs in perpetuity but reasonable. A rail system would have a lower cost to build in my estimation. Would depend on whether is was elevated or at ground level or below. The operational costs would be high but as others have said, driving cars has a per mile cost as well.

    Interesting you mention germs. While it's true one trades privacy and time for lower commute cost when using public transportation, exposure to germs would be higher. Germaphobes probably don't make good mass transit commuters.
    Last edited by sinjin; November 6, 2006, 05:48 AM.
    “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
    http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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    • #92
      Re: Rail Transit

      Originally posted by Bard View Post
      Hey sinjin, I'm curious, did you go to the western district transportation conference that happened at the Royal Hawaiian back at the end of June?
      I did not. I've had my hands full with the new baby but probably wouldn't have gone even without her arrival. As I have never resided in the State of Hawaii I only follow transportation issues there casually. I would be uncomfortable offering specific suggestions unless I was more familiar with traffic patterns on Oahu. I have used public rail in many foreign cities though and feel that they are a must if you intend to maintain quality of life while densifying.

      I would love to see a high speed rail service betwee Hilo and Kona but doubt there's enough passengers to justifying the cost unless Hilo takes the initiative to attract day trippers from Kona side resorts.
      Last edited by sinjin; November 6, 2006, 05:52 AM.
      “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
      http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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      • #93
        Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
        That's be biggest worry. Who's gong to ride this thing? I live and work near downtown. I won't be riding it.

        Even if I moved out of downtown, I'd still be taking my car. I need a car to visit customers. My employer pays the parking stall, so I don't care what it costs to park downtown. Short of a careerer change, I can't see myself on mass transit. But if I'm paying or it, I dang well want to make sure it's getting used!

        So what's it going to take to get the average commuter on mass transit and not just those who can't afford to drive?
        The financial aspect of getting and from work obviously is the greatest incentive to get people out of single rider cars and onto mass transit. As areas become more congested and business owners reduce perks (i.e., free parking for employees), more people will be competing for free street parking. As municipalities decrease the amount of onstreet parking (or install meters which restrict the amount of time you can park) and more new buildings are built with fewer parking spaces, eventually more people will move to mass transit rather than having to circle the city blocks looking for an available space. In really congested city centers (like on the East Coast) having a car really is a luxury...the last 4 years I lived in Boston, I finally owned a car, but I rarely used it during the week because hopping on the T was a whole lot less hassle than navigating through the traffic was.

        Miulang
        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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        • #94
          Re: Rail Transit

          You must remember that LAND ACQUISITION costs in Hawaii are very much higher than just about anywhere else. That is why decking a Freeway can be cheaper than widening a Freeway in Hawaii.

          Subtle difference. Easy to miss.
          FutureNewsNetwork.com
          Energy answers are already here.

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          • #95
            Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
            That's be biggest worry. Who's gong to ride this thing? I live and work near downtown. I won't be riding it.

            Even if I moved out of downtown, I'd still be taking my car. I need a car to visit customers. My employer pays the parking stall, so I don't care what it costs to park downtown. Short of a careerer change, I can't see myself on mass transit. But if I'm paying or it, I dang well want to make sure it's getting used!

            So what's it going to take to get the average commuter on mass transit and not just those who can't afford to drive?
            In your case, if you need to use your car specifically as part of your job, that's a different case. That's like trying to tell a cab driver to take mass transit and not his cab to do his job.

            But for the average commuter that doesn't use a car during work hours, there are many things that can be done to get them to switch over, some passive and some subtle, some more aggressive.

            1) Make rail run efficiently and timely. Then make all bus routes spreading out from rail stations run quickly and timely too. Make sure the bus routes cover deeper into residential areas than they do now.

            2) Gov't needs to eliminate all parking subsidies to its employees. Instead, hand out bus/rail passes to them. With the way downtown parking rates are, it'll just be a matter of time before people will try bus/rail.

            3) Pass legislation that will tax employers on the x amt they pay out to subsidize their employee parking. At the same time, give tax incentives to employers for x amt they pay out to subsidize employee bus/rail passes.

            4) Remove whatever free street parking is left in the downtown area. Convert them to bike lanes, commercial loading/unloading only, and bus stops.

            5) Build condos at or next to rail stations. These new residences should not have parking that just comes with the unit. Parking is extra.

            6) To be fair, only on areas of the island that will be served by rail, no new roads shall be built. The existing ones should be properly maintained and new suburbs being built out can have new roads but that's it. By doing this, and given the trend that there will be car growth, it's only time when that commute gets ugly enough that people will look at the rail while stuck in traffic and decide to switch over.

            7) Raise vehicle registration fees considerably on people's second cars. People usually say they need to drive cuz they gotta drop off their kids, etc etc. But how often do both spouses do that? It's usually one spouse and the other merely drives a commuter car to get to work.

            8) This is only fair if the entire island is served by rail. Slap on more taxes on the price of gas so it hits $3 or $4 a gallon. That's plenty incentive there to move to rail.

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            • #96
              Re: Rail Transit

              Originally posted by timkona View Post
              You must remember that LAND ACQUISITION costs in Hawaii are very much higher than just about anywhere else. That is why decking a Freeway can be cheaper than widening a Freeway in Hawaii.

              Subtle difference. Easy to miss.
              I'm still unconvinced. Unless multimillion dollar estates adjoin every mile of the route on both sides. We've got some pricey real estate here as well but knocking homes down is still cheaper than miles of viaduct. Did I mention this is my field?
              “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
              http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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              • #97
                Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by sinjin View Post
                I did not. I've had my hands full with the new baby but probably wouldn't have gone even without her arrival. As I have never resided in the State of Hawaii I only follow transportation issues there casually.
                Whoops, didn't notice your location tag. My wife was there to present a paper for work/school. I didn't go (my job is in transportation too, but the 'roads' are several thousand feet higher up ) but the people I met from it were really nice.

                I would love to see a high speed rail service betwee Hilo and Kona but doubt there's enough passengers to justifying the cost unless Hilo takes the initiative to attract day trippers from Kona side resorts.
                That'd rock my socks off. You could also attract Hilo residents taking day trips to Kona, I'd think. Like someone said, if you can't make rail work on an island you can't make it work anywhere. I suspect that as gas prices and other energy pressures continue to rise, there's going to be more and more of this type of stuff in Hawai`i.

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                • #98
                  Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                  Using the grid as a battery has it's limits. Secondly, you're talking about the same HECO that had a 12+ hour black out when 12% if their generation suddenly went off line. Think they can handle a sudden cloud?
                  i like the idea of using solar electric, but since people are stealling copper wire, what would prevent them from stealing solar panels?
                  Aquaponics in Paradise !

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                  • #99
                    Re: Rail Transit

                    Originally posted by Hellbent View Post
                    i like the idea of using solar electric, but since people are stealling copper wire, what would prevent them from stealing solar panels?
                    Well since it is an elevated railway, it should be off limits to non staff. I wasn't talking about installing solar panels at the stations themselves, but rather along the sides of the concrete path that the rails sit on. So that should be safe from thieves unless they are so sophisticated that they have their own bucket loader truck and pretend to be a construction crew or something.

                    As for the earlier statement of whether HECO can handle it or not, well, nothing beats trial by fire. If you don't put a fire to their feet, I don't think they will strive to make their system more reliable. I rather see something like the rail trigger a few man-made power outages to push HECO rather than some natural disaster that could really put people in jeopardy.

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                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                      I wasn't talking about installing solar panels at the stations themselves, but rather along the sides of the concrete path that the rails sit on. So that should be safe from thieves unless they are so sophisticated that they have their own bucket loader truck and pretend to be a construction crew or something.
                      Keep in mind, I support installing solar panels. But I think thieves have demonstrated they are perfectly willing and capable of dressing up as construction crews and targeting major transportation thoroughfares.

                      We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                      — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                      USA TODAY, page 2A
                      11 March 1993

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                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                        Keep in mind, I support installing solar panels. But I think thieves have demonstrated they are perfectly willing and capable of dressing up as construction crews and targeting major transportation thoroughfares.
                        I agree, there's that risk. But at least with the copper thefts, they are merely donning hardhats and orange vests and pulling wire out of the ground. To have a loader so you can reach the elevated rail, that requires a much more sophisticated crew. Possible but much smaller chance. Plus, I dunno much about solar panels on the used market, are there recycling centers that buy panels? Can panels have something like VINs etched into them?

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                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                          1) Make rail run efficiently and timely. Then make all bus routes spreading out from rail stations run quickly and timely too.
                          I agree. But good luck in making it happen.


                          3) Pass legislation that will tax employers on the x amt they pay out to subsidize their employee parking. At the same time, give tax incentives to employers for x amt they pay out to subsidize employee bus/rail passes.
                          I believe that employee parking is already taxed as salary unless it's part of the employee job description to visit clients like me.

                          4) Remove whatever free street parking is left in the downtown area. Convert them to bike lanes, commercial loading/unloading only, and bus stops.
                          Free parking? Where?!?

                          5) Build condos at or next to rail stations. These new residences should not have parking that just comes with the unit. Parking is extra.
                          Well, that's one way to do affordable housing. But it's still going to be ugly because either the other spouse needs the car to go to their non-downtown job, or it will be needed for errands. Carless commuting is one thing, Carless living is another.

                          6) To be fair, only on areas of the island that will be served by rail, no new roads shall be built. The existing ones should be properly maintained and new suburbs being built out can have new roads but that's it. By doing this, and given the trend that there will be car growth, it's only time when that commute gets ugly enough that people will look at the rail while stuck in traffic and decide to switch over.
                          Why is it that most of this is about making rail attractive by making cars a pain? Why can't someone come up with a rail that will make people WANT to use it? Just legalize subscription taxi and I think you'll see a change.

                          7) Raise vehicle registration fees considerably on people's second cars. People usually say they need to drive cuz they gotta drop off their kids, etc etc. But how often do both spouses do that? It's usually one spouse and the other merely drives a commuter car to get to work.
                          Please define "second car". Sounds to me like you've just increased the marriage tax. Why should people get married if they have to give up a car? Just shack up.

                          8) This is only fair if the entire island is served by rail. Slap on more taxes on the price of gas so it hits $3 or $4 a gallon. That's plenty incentive there to move to rail.
                          Political suicide. The politicians would be kicked out so fast and so hard their butts would leave skid marks starting at 50ft from the door.

                          Also, be careful that you don't cause business to flee downtown and turn it into a decaying core. It's happened in other cities.

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                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                            Free parking? Where?!?
                            We parked for an entire week for free along the Ala Wai canal in Waikiki.

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                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                              I believe that employee parking is already taxed as salary unless it's part of the employee job description to visit clients like me.
                              If so, then the gov't needs to give out the incentive to employers that subsidizes bus/rail passes.

                              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                              Free parking? Where?!?
                              I believe there are a few spots in the Chinatown area. But let me rephrase that statement to better reflect the situation. Remove whatever street parking that is left.

                              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                              Well, that's one way to do affordable housing. But it's still going to be ugly because either the other spouse needs the car to go to their non-downtown job, or it will be needed for errands. Carless commuting is one thing, Carless living is another.
                              I didn't say these new housing projects don't have garages but they should not be free. Affordable housing doesn't mean entitlement to everything.

                              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                              Why is it that most of this is about making rail attractive by making cars a pain? Why can't someone come up with a rail that will make people WANT to use it? Just legalize subscription taxi and I think you'll see a change.
                              Is it really about making cars a pain or more about leveling the playing field? As recent as the 30s and 40s, most major American cities had streetcars. But we decided to subsidize on a massive scale with the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 which was lobbied for by US automakers so thus the Interstates were born and usually acts as the backbone of any current US city's car network. Only 56% of construction and maintenance is paid for by gasoline taxes. Rest is subsidized by the federal budget, translation, the American taxpayer, even those that don't own a car. The Oahu Railway and Land Company ran a profitable rail on Oahu until the spread of public funded roads killed them off.

                              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                              Please define "second car". Sounds to me like you've just increased the marriage tax. Why should people get married if they have to give up a car? Just shack up.
                              I'm only tossing out ideas and I did say some would be aggressive. If couples are willing to just shack up just to save on owning a second car, that's pretty sad. Shows you how much they value the concept of marriage. But that's another topic for another thread. But the truth is, there are quite a few households where there are more cars than number of people under the same roof. You need to figure a way to discourage that. Maybe a retuned idea would be to increase the vehicle registration fees to a considerable amount on vehicles that are over a certain weight? To at least discourage the choice of inefficient cars. But then, people will complain about that too. We're a nation of whiners.

                              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                              Political suicide. The politicians would be kicked out so fast and so hard their butts would leave skid marks starting at 50ft from the door.

                              Also, be careful that you don't cause business to flee downtown and turn it into a decaying core. It's happened in other cities.
                              I don't know how raising the price of gas across the entire island will cause business to flee downtown alone. Maybe the island. But then again, when has the state of Hawaii been business friendly? Shouldn't bother them now.

                              Political suicide? What about those who recommend the way to fix the commute problem is to limit population growth? Trying to decide who can move where in a democratic country?

                              I did say some of my suggestions were passive, some subtle, and some aggressive.

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                              • Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                                I don't know how raising the price of gas across the entire island will cause business to flee downtown alone.
                                I was making a broader comment, it wasn't tied to the gas price. More specifically taking away parking downtown will cause decay. If parking is not necessary for business to function, then please explain a major feature found at Ala Moana Center, K-Mart, Wal-Mart or any other big box store. If customers can't park, they'll shop somewhere else. If offices find it hard to get employees or generally find it too much hassle due to lack of employee parking they may relocate. And the decay begins.

                                Originally posted by Bard View Post
                                We parked for an entire week for free along the Ala Wai canal in Waikiki.
                                And the one time every 3 months I go to Waikiki, I park in a metered stall. I guess that's why I didn't think of that. See my other post on parking and effects on business. Take away parking and say goodbye to small business.

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