How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

In the case of one of the 9-11 attack planners, who was found guilty, the jury was divided 11-1 in favor of a death sentence. That one on the jury to me, lied under oath.

You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how illogical and disfunctional it may be. Your opinion does not make it fact.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

In the case of one of the 9-11 attack planners, who was found guilty, the jury was divided 11-1 in favor of a death sentence.

Which trial was that?

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Kaonohi>Although a death penalty may seem a suitable deterrant, and may seem like justice in some cases, I do not believe in it.

Nobu> Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I disagree with you, and I will address your points.

Kaonohi> Death is preferable to life in prison for offenders (I know one).

Nobu> If death is preferable to life in prison, then please explain why those on Death Row do not forfiet all of their appeals to die sooner, and that most will gladly take a commuted sentence of Life Without the possibility of parole instead? In the case presented in this very forum about the murder trials that took place in Connecticut, why do you think the defense offered a plea deal so that the two murderers could avoid a death sentence?

Kaonohi> Death is a cheap 'out' for cash-strapped governments.

Nobu> That is true, and "life in prison" is far more expensive.

Kaonohi> Death is irreversible, in cases where new evidence comes to light.

Nobu> You also cannot take the years of wrongful incarceration if someone is innocent but wrongfully convicted. So the time spent in prison is also irreversible. Since you see it that way, how about just imposing a fine for murder? That way, if a mistake is made, we can always reimburse the wrongfully convicted?

Kaonohi> If we are to impose punishments upon offenders, we should be prepared to pay the price.

Nobu> True. It is actually cheaper to give an armed robber the cash he would normally net in his crime than to prosecute and punish him. So do you propose that we do away with our penal system????

Kaonohi> Death, unless in the hands of God (or whatever you believe), is simply murder under a different name.

Nobu> Best that you take out your dictionary and look up the definition of murder.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Which trial was that?

Hi Leo,
It was the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how illogical and disfunctional it may be. Your opinion does not make it fact.

That is true. However, with an 11 to one vote among 12 common people, I think that is very strong evidence that the one was opposed to capital punishment, especially when it comes to the 9/11 attack where three thousand people were murdered.

I posted the url to the questionaire to qualify for a death penalty jury. This person had to say that he/she would be willing to sentence someone to death if the crime calls for it. If conspiracy to murder 3000 people does not call for the death sentence, I really don't know what does.

If that is not proof enough for you, nothing would be proof enough for you, while it is proof enough for me.

Nobu

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

It is amusing to see the lack of proportionality in some of these death cases. Take one case of a mother who kills her child, and gets a death penalty sentence. Take other cases (such as war crimes) where a general contributes to the deaths of hundreds or thousands (or even millions) of people in mass-murderings, and gets 20 years in prison. One of the more recent cases involved Kiang Guek Eav, who tortured and killed 14000 people in Cambodia, and received only 19 years.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

On the subject of war crimes, it does appear that the invasion of Iraq and resulting death of an estimated million Iraqis was without justification-a premeditated crime, mass murder on the same scale as Germany invading Poland in 1939. Yet we can all know to an absolute certainty that American...justice...will NEVER call those responsible to answer or even to explain. Stalin--"a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." Bet any amount of money you wish, bush will never be tried, a million dead, not a whisper of justice, bet on it. But hold up a liquor store and shoot the clerk, you are toast. "Equal Justice Under The Law", yeah sure.

Jury pools...a jury of your peers, that definitely suggests a cross section of the community and if the community includes some people who absolutely oppose the death penalty excluding them is no different from excluding, say, Baptists, or veterans, or any other identifiable group. Flip the coin, wouldn't it be just as sensible to exclude everyone who supported the death penalty?

On the subject of money which is always so important in thinking about justice...just this morning I happened to flip on the TV for morning coffee & exercises and there was a program about a brutal murder case, defendant named Chavez, the statistic came out that keeping a prisoner for life can cost about $750k but a death penalty case typically runs to $3 to $5 million because of appeals and special housing and security.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Blaming Bush for Hussein's chemical genocide of a million Kurds is like blaming Roosevelt for Hitler's chemical genocide of Jews.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Using the death penalty as deterrence only makes sense in what you might call rational crimes. Crimes of passion and drunken or drug induced brawls would have to be excluded, so would crimes of criminal insanity because people are not operating with rational minds, they are not thinking as they pull the trigger.


I do not think the death toll from Hussein's chemical warfare against the Kurds was anything near a million. The million dead Iraqis referred to died as a result of bush's war, as direct casualties and from the destruction of vital infrastructure, starvation, malnutrition, disease, its the high estimate but considered realistic. Whether it was "only" 100,000 or the full million, they died as collateral damage to the attempted theft of Iraq's oil. If people die in the commission of a felony like theft it is considered murder. Was Hussein considered a friend when he was murdering the Kurds, or had he become an enemy by then?

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Blaming Bush for Hussein's chemical genocide of a million Kurds is like blaming Roosevelt for Hitler's chemical genocide of Jews.

I fully agree with that. While I didn't quite understand the Vietnam War, I would not blame President Johnson, or President Nixon for the 58,000 Americans and more than one million Vietnamese people that died inthat war.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I would not blame President Johnson, or President Nixon for the 58,000 Americans and more than one million Vietnamese people that died inthat war.

I would blame the majority of Americans who supported that war.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Using the death penalty as deterrence only makes sense in what you might call rational crimes. Crimes of passion and drunken or drug induced brawls would have to be excluded, so would crimes of criminal insanity because people are not operating with rational minds, they are not thinking as they pull the trigger.


I do not think the death toll from Hussein's chemical warfare against the Kurds was anything near a million. The million dead Iraqis referred to died as a result of bush's war, as direct casualties and from the destruction of vital infrastructure, starvation, malnutrition, disease, its the high estimate but considered realistic. Whether it was "only" 100,000 or the full million, they died as collateral damage to the attempted theft of Iraq's oil. If people die in the commission of a felony like theft it is considered murder. Was Hussein considered a friend when he was murdering the Kurds, or had he become an enemy by then?

Hi Kalalau,
I don't think you understand the whole picture on the war in the Middle East, so I will try to explain.

It started with Iraq's invasion of Kuwaite. This was a powerful country Iraq invading an almost defenseless country in Kuaite. Bush Sr, ordered the allies to take action against the aggression, and they drove Iraq out of Kuwaite. In the process of the Desert Storm War, Saddam torched the oil wells in Kuwaite. Upon the ending of Desert Storm, Iraq agreed to, and signed a treaty to allow UN inspectors into that country to ensure that Iraq was not building up their military again. Iraq put up restrictions against the UN inspections which was a violation of the treaty, and Iraq was suspected of developing Weapons of Mass Destructions (WMD)... By then, Bush Jr was President. And he, with CONGRESS, ordered the invasion of Iraq, for breeching the terms of the Desert Storm Treaty.

It was claimed that no WMD was found after Iraq was secured, but we do know that Iraq had poison gas, because Saddam used it against the Kurds. Whether those weapons were destroyed, or moved to Iran is unknown, because there is no record of either.

I would not say that the war in Iraq was illegal, and I support Bush's actions against that country. Without taking Saddam out of office, (Not necessarily by execution) Iraq could have built that country to the military power in the Middle East.

While Bush did some damage to our economy, the two things I am happy about having Bush as our president, is his actions after the 9-11 attacks, as I don't think Gore would have done as much, although I felt that Bush didn't really do enough. AND, his actions taken in the Middle East, creating a better balance of power there.
Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I would blame the majority of Americans who supported that war.

I disagree. I would blame the majority of the Americans to demonstrated against the war. The war was a very winnable one. We were defeated at home rather than abroad.

President Johnson escallated the war with the blessings of Congress. I often wonder what Jack Kennedy would have done if he wasn't murdered. My thoughts was that we should have pulled out of that country after the assassination of Diem.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I would blame the majority of the Americans to demonstrated against the war. The war was a very winnable one. We were defeated at home rather than abroad..

Here we go, 1967, all over again. America, love it or leave it (but that doesn't count for the TeaBaggers does it). VietNam is better off today because they "won" the war. It is a relatively prosperous, stable country even though it doesn't meet that definition by ultra-conservative Americans. My buddy, who is a Peace Corps alumnus, works for the Foreign Service and is negotiating a catfish treaty with the VietNamese governement. He has been treated with nothing but respect and courtesy while there. Other friends are going to Hanoi on a ElderHostel program this Fall.

Fact is Nobu, you "lost" and you continue losing. Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Over one million combined deaths for what? So Nobe can say, "we could have won." Winning isn't everything. Sometimes you can "win" when you "lose" if you learn a valuable lession. Some people never learn. To them "winning" is everything.

I'm proud to say, "Hot damn, Viet Nam, Hell no, I didn't go!"

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Even though the president is the commander-in-chief of the military, those who actually passed Government class would remember that only Congress can "declare war." So to say something like, "Bush's War" or "Obama's War" or any of that nonsense shows a lack of understanding.

The President can urge all he wants. He can send troops to an area for a short duration of time. Congress must authorize the extended occupation and the declaration.