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View Poll Results: Are you in favor of classifying cockfighting a cultural activity?
Yes 7 33.33%
No 14 66.67%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old April 1st, 2010, 01:48 PM
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craigwatanabe craigwatanabe is offline
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
Craig and Kimo, I don't know where you're coming from here (unfortunately, it's not the first time, either). The discussion isn't about banning anything, it's about governmental recognition of cock-fighting as a cultural activity. I can't perceive how your comments relate to that topic. Could you give me a hint as to the tie-in?
Playing Devil's Advocate here. Personally when it comes to culture, we need to respect that first as our diversity is what makes us strong and accepting of others.

Good or bad it is a cultural thing. Yes roosters weren't subjected to the advancements in drugs and weaponry that are used today, however advancements in technology didn't stop Kamehameha in achieving power across all islands.

What I'm saying is that before we start singling out one culture for what another culture deems cruel, we gotta remember that cruelty exists in the eyes of the beholder much like art.

Are we a civilized society? Apparently some of us here on this forum believe in marching to their own beat even if it means being appalling to others that share the same sidewalk with them.

Heck I knew of a peace protester who gave the thumbs up to my Australian friend who supported their cause. He was immediately appalled at this protester's gesture. In Australia the thumbs up gesture is the equivalent of saying F*ck You with the middle finger!

It's a matter of perspective and unless one lives that culture, they shouldn't be blasting something they don't understand beyond a literal level. Our Caucasian Missionary friends who first came to Hawaii were appalled when young women greeted their arriving ships bare-breasted. Appalling by western standards, totally acceptable by native Hawaiians.

And Salmoned...admitting lack of perception of what I'm posting while others do show a limited perspective of the broader picture. There are those here in Hawaii that oppose Cockfighting, basically want the state to prohibit or ban this practice. There is a connection here between this and other practices that seem to contradict what a bloodsport is.

And Salmoned as the post title says we are talking cultural activity right? Personally I detest cockfighting, however I am not the one to tell another culture how to run their lives. But when we start to focus on cultural activities as evil by our own perspectives, it opens the floodgates to what else is out there to attack.

There is a connection, you just can't see it...as you said, "I can't perceive how your comments relate to that topic. Could you give me a hint as to the tie-in?.
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Last edited by craigwatanabe; April 1st, 2010 at 02:01 PM.
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  #27  
Old April 1st, 2010, 03:19 PM
Kimo Kimo is offline
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

The reference to shark fins:

Legislature refused to ban possession, use, etc., of shark fins - kind of "sanctioning" this culturally-significant matter.

Legislature refused to support cockfighting as a culturally significant activity - letting the law making the activity illegal stand.

The two are related by virtue of lawmakers getting involved in trying to define cultural significance . . . risky business at best, and perhaps best avoided?

Why do these guys (and gals) get sidetracked on stuff like this?
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  #28  
Old April 1st, 2010, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

I found an interesting documentary about cockfighting. Its a little bit old, but provides an insight to the people who fight cocks, and the people who fight them. Its pretty unbiased, too. For the squeamish - no worries, there's no blood & guts.
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  #29  
Old April 1st, 2010, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
while we're at it why not ban boxing, or other sporting events designed to pummel the crap outta your opponent? Roosters die in cockfights, so do prizefighters.
Frankly Craig, this comparison is ridiculous on a couple of levels, and I think you already know it.

1) Boxing is a sport where the participants are humans. Humans voluntarily decide whether to enter the sport or not. In this country, nobody is forced to become a boxer.

OTOH, breeders raise their roosters to be cockfighters. The animals are not given a choice.

2) When the roosters wear those gaffs/blades, it is almost a certainty that one of the roosters will get killed. And on the rare occasions that it doesn't happen, the loser is often so crippled that death becomes inevitable.

OTOH.... while boxing is a brutal sport where serious injury and yes, even death is a possibility, death is not the expected outcome. In fact, it's the job of the referee and the ring doctor to stop a fight when one of the boxers is in danger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
Playing Devil's Advocate here. Personally when it comes to culture, we need to respect that first as our diversity is what makes us strong and accepting of others.
Which also has to be balanced out with the concept that immigrants coming here need to have a respect for the laws and customs of their hosts.

All of the immigrants groups that have come into the US have been allowed to practice most of the cultural traditions from their native land. This would include religion, music, dances, art and so forth. One of the cockfighting proponents whined about how the Japanese are allowed to have bon dances here. Well, every other ethnic group has been allowed to practice their native dance as well. The Filipinos are allowed to do the tinikling. The Mexicans are free to do their hat dance. In fact, ethnic fairs and festivals are commonplace in Hawaii, are they not? My point here is that all the ethnic groups living here are given the freedom to express their cultural identity in many ways. Nobody is being totally repressed from expressing their ethnic heritage and background.

But while the United States allows its immigrants to practice most of the cultural traditions from their native country,..... most does not equal all. Yeah, there are limitations on cultural traditions and activities that can be practiced here. In Japan, there's the mass round-up and slaughter of dolphins that happens every year in the village of Taiji. But if any Japanese wishes to emigrate to America, they're not allowed to carry on that "cultural activity" to the shores of their new country. And guess what? People who wish to make America their new home aren't allowed to practice cockfights either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
What I'm saying is that before we start singling out one culture for what another culture deems cruel,
Nope. Read what I said above. No culture is being singled out. That's because every immigrant group coming into the US are not allowed to carry on cultural activities from their native land that involves cruelty to animals. Dolphin round-up, bullfighting,.... and yes, cockfighting.

Last edited by Frankie's Market; April 1st, 2010 at 04:06 PM.
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  #30  
Old April 1st, 2010, 04:34 PM
oceanpacific oceanpacific is offline
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Should we give "cultural recognition" to eating dogs? Remember those two guys who stole the dog at Moanalua Golf Course, slaughtered it, and then ate the evidence? Other than getting fired from their jobs, what was the punishment meted out?
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  #31  
Old April 1st, 2010, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
Frankly Craig, this comparison is ridiculous on a couple of levels, and I think you already know it.

1) Boxing is a sport where the participants are humans. Humans voluntarily decide whether to enter the sport or not. In this country, nobody is forced to become a boxer.

OTOH, breeders raise their roosters to be cockfighters. The animals are not given a choice.

2) When the roosters wear those gaffs/blades, it is almost a certainty that one of the roosters will get killed. And on the rare occasions that it doesn't happen, the loser is often so crippled that death becomes inevitable.

OTOH.... while boxing is a brutal sport where serious injury and yes, even death is a possibility, death is not the expected outcome. In fact, it's the job of the referee and the ring doctor to stop a fight when one of the boxers is in danger.



Which also has to be balanced out with the concept that immigrants coming here need to have a respect for the laws and customs of their hosts.

All of the immigrants groups that have come into the US have been allowed to practice most of the cultural traditions from their native land. This would include religion, music, dances, art and so forth. One of the cockfighting proponents whined about how the Japanese are allowed to have bon dances here. Well, every other ethnic group has been allowed to practice their native dance as well. The Filipinos are allowed to do the tinikling. The Mexicans are free to do their hat dance. In fact, ethnic fairs and festivals are commonplace in Hawaii, are they not? My point here is that all the ethnic groups living here are given the freedom to express their cultural identity in many ways. Nobody is being totally repressed from expressing their ethnic heritage and background.

But while the United States allows its immigrants to practice most of the cultural traditions from their native country,..... most does not equal all. Yeah, there are limitations on cultural traditions and activities that can be practiced here. In Japan, there's the mass round-up and slaughter of dolphins that happens every year in the village of Taiji. But if any Japanese wishes to emigrate to America, they're not allowed to carry on that "cultural activity" to the shores of their new country. And guess what? People who wish to make America their new home aren't allowed to practice cockfights either.



Nope. Read what I said above. No culture is being singled out. That's because every immigrant group coming into the US are not allowed to carry on cultural activities from their native land that involves cruelty to animals. Dolphin round-up, bullfighting,.... and yes, cockfighting.
FM I'm not singling you out, it's just my perspective.
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  #32  
Old April 1st, 2010, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
Playing Devil's Advocate here. Personally when it comes to culture, we need to respect that first as our diversity is what makes us strong and accepting of others.

Good or bad it is a cultural thing. Yes roosters weren't subjected to the advancements in drugs and weaponry that are used today, however advancements in technology didn't stop Kamehameha in achieving power across all islands.

What I'm saying is that before we start singling out one culture for what another culture deems cruel, we gotta remember that cruelty exists in the eyes of the beholder much like art.

Are we a civilized society? Apparently some of us here on this forum believe in marching to their own beat even if it means being appalling to others that share the same sidewalk with them.

Heck I knew of a peace protester who gave the thumbs up to my Australian friend who supported their cause. He was immediately appalled at this protester's gesture. In Australia the thumbs up gesture is the equivalent of saying F*ck You with the middle finger!

It's a matter of perspective and unless one lives that culture, they shouldn't be blasting something they don't understand beyond a literal level. Our Caucasian Missionary friends who first came to Hawaii were appalled when young women greeted their arriving ships bare-breasted. Appalling by western standards, totally acceptable by native Hawaiians.

And Salmoned...admitting lack of perception of what I'm posting while others do show a limited perspective of the broader picture. There are those here in Hawaii that oppose Cockfighting, basically want the state to prohibit or ban this practice. There is a connection here between this and other practices that seem to contradict what a bloodsport is.

And Salmoned as the post title says we are talking cultural activity right? Personally I detest cockfighting, however I am not the one to tell another culture how to run their lives. But when we start to focus on cultural activities as evil by our own perspectives, it opens the floodgates to what else is out there to attack.

There is a connection, you just can't see it...as you said, "I can't perceive how your comments relate to that topic. Could you give me a hint as to the tie-in?.
Okay, so you're saying that our government should officially recognize cock-fighting and all those other activities I previously mentioned as 'cultural', even if illegal and/or abhorrent to our society as expressed in the laws of our state, because that diversity makes us strong, eh?

Cock-fighting is no more a cultural activity than child-molesting, prostitution, gambling or eating shark fin soup. If that fact is not apparent to you, I can only pray for your enlightenment. Those activities are only cultural in that they are indeed enjoyed and embraced by a cult of followers.

Oh, devil's advocate. So your comments are tongue-in-cheek. Then, nevermind.
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Last edited by salmoned; April 1st, 2010 at 06:15 PM.
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  #33  
Old April 1st, 2010, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Ok - let's start by saying I am against fighting of ANY kind - just to stay a little on topic.......

My real question is this - What does shark fin soup have to do with "abhorrent" cultural practices? I have seen this mentioned several times and am really confused. Is there something I am missing? I have seen shark fin soup prepared a few times. The fins always came from sharks that were basically caught for sport. Is this an American version?
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  #34  
Old April 1st, 2010, 07:14 PM
Kimo Kimo is offline
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

The issue is slicing fins from the sharks and dumping the animals back into the ocean to die ... and, by the way, some heavy persuasion at the Capitol last night has caused the ban bill to resurface today - sorry for being off topic if that's the way it's perceived.
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  #35  
Old April 1st, 2010, 08:21 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimo View Post
- sorry for being off topic if that's the way it's perceived.
I got the connection you were making, Kimo. It's not uncommon for (as you noted) some fisher-folk to slice off the fins for their culinary value, and to toss the rest of the shark back. The consumption of shark-fin soup could be classified as a "cultural activity," and the collection of the fins in the manner described as "abhorrent." I hope that helps explain to others the point you were trying to make.
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  #36  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Common sense prevails at the S-B editorial office.

Some highlights to show how flawed and ignorant the resolution was.

Quote:
The resolutions state that "cockfighting has a long and cherished tradition in many cultures throughout the world." The resolutions are accurate in stating that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson participated in cockfighting. Of course, they also owned slaves. Times change and repugnant traditions are abandoned.
Quote:
Each of the resolutions states that it supports cockfighting "as a cultural activity" but "does not support gambling, betting or gaffs," which are sharp spurs attached to the rooster's feet, all of which are integral to cockfighting. People engage in cockfighting to bet.
Duhhh, how naive was the resolution's author?

Quote:
In America, cockfighting is against the law in all 50 states, and Congress has made interstate or foreign transportation of roosters for fighting purposes or of paraphernalia, such as gaffs, a felony. The resolutions state that such shipping by breeders continues, "making a considerable contribution to the economy." (The resolution does not mention that such activity violates federal law. Its author should notify authorities about the basis for the statement.)
You read it right. A state legislative resolution that praises a federal felony.

What's next? Is a legislator going to propose a resolution that recognizes the economic contribution that human traffickers have made to the state with all the prostitutes who are walking the streets of Waikiki?

Rep. Manahan and the 3 legislators who voted to support the cockfighting resolutions are idiots.
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  #37  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanpacific View Post
Should we give "cultural recognition" to eating dogs? Remember those two guys who stole the dog at Moanalua Golf Course, slaughtered it, and then ate the evidence? Other than getting fired from their jobs, what was the punishment meted out?
You can eat dog, so long it is YOUR dog.

If I eat a bowl of chili that is made of YOUR ground beef that you bought and owned, then I should be held accountable for stealing something of yours.

The same applies to having taken your cow and pig and eat them.
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  #38  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
Okay, so you're saying that our government should officially recognize cock-fighting and all those other activities I previously mentioned as 'cultural', even if illegal and/or abhorrent to our society as expressed in the laws of our state, because that diversity makes us strong, eh?
Yeah, society and enlightenment sucks.
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  #39  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: Cockfighting: a cultural activity?

cockfighting? sure,tis a cultural practice...in the PI, which is done w/ me. tho i'm pinay, i don't feel the urge to support it being recognized anywhere in the US.

will point out that cockfighting is done in many countries besides the PI, just as dogeating is not endemic only to the PI.

still a little lifted so typos galore.
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