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  #26  
Old July 6th, 2013, 08:55 PM
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Kaonohi Kaonohi is offline
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Cool Re: Snowden/NSA - telling the truth

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No, it's when it's against the law.
Sounds familiar.... Oh yes! 1930's Germany!
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  #27  
Old July 6th, 2013, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Snowden/NSA - telling the truth

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
No, it's when it's against the law.
Sounds familiar.... Oh yes! 1930's Germany!
Or most anywhere else. Didn't you read your question? "Since when is telling the truth a punishable offense?" Acts that are against the law are punishable offenses -- it's a tautology. There is a dispute about whether Snowden ought to be punished, but no dispute about whether he broke the law.
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  #28  
Old July 7th, 2013, 05:11 AM
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Default Re: Snowden/NSA

At one time "The Law" said slavery was legal.

That which is ethical and righteous has often been illegal.
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  #29  
Old July 7th, 2013, 06:45 PM
Ron Whitfield Ron Whitfield is offline
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Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
Best case scenario: Snowden is either exonerated, or given a light sentence, along with James Clapper; and our intelligence gathering apparatus, etc. is severely reformed.
Dang, nice post, v.
Funny how Clapper's lie isn't getting more focus, it was an absurd moment. But it's just another sad chapter in our media and country's history.
Amazing, how we've watched as our Union went from one of promise to having a fork in it.
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  #30  
Old July 7th, 2013, 09:10 PM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Default Re: Snowden/NSA

Have we all been fooled by Snowden? Sounds like a bit of a flake, a loose cannon: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07...dward-snowden/
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  #31  
Old July 7th, 2013, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
Have we all been fooled by Snowden? Sounds like a bit of a flake, a loose cannon: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07...dward-snowden/
I'm seeing lots of these efforts to discredit Snowden, as in this article:
Quote:
While I am certain that what he has reported is true, Iím unsure of motivation.
I just don't get this at all. What's the difference what his motivation is, or whether he is a noble and good person? If his report is true and it is something we needed to know and had a right to know, he did us a great service. If these commentators succeed in convincing us that Snowden is a complete jerk, does that mean it was okay to spy on us, after all? Of course not -- makes no sense.
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  #32  
Old July 8th, 2013, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Snowden/NSA

It is quite possible that snowden is a sacrificial sheep involving

an internal power battle between nsa oni dia and other agencies.
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  #33  
Old July 8th, 2013, 05:54 AM
Walkoff Balk Walkoff Balk is offline
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He might be doing, "Do you know me" credit card commercials in a few years.
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  #34  
Old July 8th, 2013, 07:54 AM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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The question of motivation I guess does not really matter. On one hand the guy might have sold out national security and made protecting against additional 9 11s difficult or impossible and cost agents their lives or at least their covers, etc, based on some moral principles, and on the other hand he might have done it just because like so many white people he hates Obama, which is what the article made it sound like. I am coming to the regretful conclusion that the country just can't afford to have non white leadership, too many whites are too petty and hateful and spiteful and destructive, glad to take the whole ship of state down out of their hatred for non white leadership. No matter how competent the non white might be, America will only be satisfied with whites in power even if they are destructive incompetent idiots like Bush. Congress does not work any more basically because Obama is not white, and Snowden seems to be another example of a bitter white man eager to sacrifice the national security just to vent his hatred of a non white president. Sad. Its not a firm conclusion yet but thats the way things seem to look as of now.
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  #35  
Old July 8th, 2013, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: Snowden/NSA

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he might have done it just because like so many white people he hates Obama, (...) No matter how competent the non white might be, America will only be satisfied with whites in power even if they are destructive incompetent idiots like Bush. Congress does not work any more basically because Obama is not white,

Speak for yourself. I'm more concerned that Obama is anti-freedom, unconstitutionally oriented, a socialist with communist leanings. I don't care about the color of his skin.
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  #36  
Old July 8th, 2013, 10:53 PM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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And saving GM & Chrysler fits in to the socialist thing...? Maybe it does, I just can't imagine how. Anything Obama has done against the Constitution bush did a thousand times worse but bush is white. Can you even imagine the uproar if Obama "lost" $ 8 billion like bush did in Iraq? Poof! $ 8 billion just gone. Wow. But nobody cared. Oh a little bit. But bush is white. Not that made it OK, but if Obama as a non white lost $ 8 billion I have a feeling impeachment would be the least of his worries. Nailing Osama bin Laden was an expression of...what...his anti religious communist leanings maybe. Or maybe his islamist views. Just as sensible, really.
People LOVE socialism! They LOVE their municipal golf courses, public beaches (it would be so easy to privatize them, making them public was a socialist idea from the early 20th century), people LOVE publicly owned water & sewer systems. Beware, there are moves afoot to privatize water systems. People LOVE social security and medicare, they love publicly owned roads. On and on.

Last edited by Kalalau; July 8th, 2013 at 11:22 PM.
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  #37  
Old July 12th, 2013, 04:39 PM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Snowden is asking Russia for asylum. I think that says something. Even though Russia has advanced tremendously since the days of Stalin it remains infinitely less free than the US even with gvt monitoring here. Daniel Ellsberg did not petition Communist China or North Vietnam for asylum after leaking the Pentagon Papers, he accepted his punishment, so did Dr. Martin Luther King and many other real heros. Blame? Snowden, of course, but also the US gvt for going off on this insane contracting thing, "oh private industry can always do it better and cheaper" and who needs background checks anyway, we can save money and cut taxes etc. How would Snowden have played back in the cold war days? Could he just be too young and too uneducated to know what real tyranny looks like?
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  #38  
Old July 12th, 2013, 05:37 PM
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Snowden is asking Russia for asylum. I think that says something. Even though Russia has advanced tremendously since the days of Stalin it remains infinitely less free than the US even with gvt monitoring here.
Yes, it says he doesn't want to wind up in a US prison. Russia is big enough and independent enough to tell the US to buzz off, if it isn't in the mood to send him back here to be tried and convicted. Why in the world would you think it has anything to do with how much personal freedom is allowed in Russia? I just don't understand the reasoning at all.
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  #39  
Old July 12th, 2013, 07:05 PM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Just the idea that if he thought having a few phone calls monitored was intrusive...well...I think he is in for a rude awakening. Prison sentences end, but life under a (not quite) tyranny just drags on and on. Russia seems always on the edge of a relapse into Stalinism. Maybe not quite that bad but it was no picnic under Khruschev or Brezhnev either. Also it shows a huge unrealistic streak, able to take refuge or seek refuge in a (not quite) totalitarian state while betraying one which while not perfect, by no means perfect, at least has the legal framework of being a liberal country. More than being a traitor, I think he's an idiot.
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  #40  
Old July 12th, 2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
Also it shows a huge unrealistic streak, able to take refuge or seek refuge in a (not quite) totalitarian state ...
If he successfully seeks refuge, he avoids US prison. If he doesn't get refuge, he goes to prison. How is he being unrealistic in seeking refuge? I still don't get what you're trying to say. I guess you don't like Russia very much, but do you really think his life in Russia, out of prison, will be worse than returning here and being in a US prison?

You seem to think that Snowden is somehow approving of the Russian social system by seeking asylum there, and I think that is silly. Snowden just doesn't want to go to prison.
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  #41  
Old July 12th, 2013, 11:25 PM
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Kinda odd, in a real sucky way, that America (the land of asylum) is now asking every country to refuse Snowden asylum so they can get hold of and persecute him. Obama can go fuck himself, makes me wonder how BushCo would have dealt with it, even tho I know where Cheney The Dick is on it.
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  #42  
Old July 13th, 2013, 03:46 AM
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Default Re: Snowden/NSA

Let us remember that Hawaii has provided places of refuge.

The red tape of the desk jockeys should not

restrict the ability to sail.

The most revered ancestors of the nation were sailing away from Tahiti


to avoid political upheaval.
Master Mariners, their style of doing things worked.

Probably still does today.
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  #43  
Old July 13th, 2013, 08:59 AM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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It is so weird for me to be in the position of defending the gvt on this issue. I think the gvt might have a legitimate point that limited monitoring of phone traffic can prevent another 9 11 and to borrow a phrase from Bush, the next one could involve a mushroom cloud. We don't want that. If it ever happens or anything even a little like it happens there will be loads of hand wringing and cries of why didn't we... This is weird for me because I supported Ellsberg and Wikileaks so far.
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  #44  
Old July 13th, 2013, 12:14 PM
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I think the gvt might have a legitimate point that limited monitoring of phone traffic can prevent another 9 11 and to borrow a phrase from Bush, the next one could involve a mushroom cloud.
Well, sure. The need to respect our privacy and other civil liberties really does hamper the police. They could be more effective at catching bad guys if they didn't have to show cause to a judge before starting a wiretap. Is that all that counts? If government spying works, then it's okay with you?
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  #45  
Old July 14th, 2013, 07:00 AM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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The reporter who Snowden leaked to, I believe named Greenwald, says Snowden has material that if released would be the US ultimate nightmare. Wow, the mind boggles. What could it be? Is Obama really a Kenyan Muslim socialist? Is it the cover of agents around the world? The location of secretly placed doomsday bombs around the world? He said the US should be on its knees praying that nothing happens to Snowden because if he dies that material gets released. Wow. Of course it could be empty hot air too. But I am curious as heck.
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  #46  
Old July 14th, 2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
Snowden is asking Russia for asylum. I think that says something. Even though Russia has advanced tremendously since the days of Stalin it remains infinitely less free than the US even with gvt monitoring here. Daniel Ellsberg did not petition Communist China or North Vietnam for asylum after leaking the Pentagon Papers, he accepted his punishment, so did Dr. Martin Luther King and many other real heros. Blame? Snowden, of course, but also the US gvt for going off on this insane contracting thing, "oh private industry can always do it better and cheaper" and who needs background checks anyway, we can save money and cut taxes etc. How would Snowden have played back in the cold war days? Could he just be too young and too uneducated to know what real tyranny looks like?
Daniel Ellsberg has defended Edward Snowden's decision to flee and said "The country I stayed in was a different America".

Snowden has no reasonable expectation to be treated fairly in the United States. James Clapper has yet to be indicted for perjury, which indicates this is not about breaking the color of law, it's about a political agenda. Bradley Manning was badly mistreated and placed in solitary confinement.

That said, I for one surely wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life in Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
The reporter who Snowden leaked to, I believe named Greenwald, says Snowden has material that if released would be the US ultimate nightmare. Wow, the mind boggles. What could it be? Is Obama really a Kenyan Muslim socialist? Is it the cover of agents around the world? The location of secretly placed doomsday bombs around the world? He said the US should be on its knees praying that nothing happens to Snowden because if he dies that material gets released. Wow. Of course it could be empty hot air too. But I am curious as heck.
As much as I am in favor of Snowden and Greenwald, I really can't take this claim too seriously. I can't see them holding something like this in reserve unless it's something between countries (i.e. the USA spying on another country, something of that nature). If it had something to do with human rights violations against the American people, it would have been already published. I heard the excuse that they want to create a "narrative" by gradually disclosing information, but I'm just not buying it. The first thing that comes to mind is when Wikileaks or another whistleblower agency said they had all these damning documents from the big banks, but I don't think we ever got to see those.
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  #47  
Old July 14th, 2013, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Snowden/NSA

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Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
Daniel Ellsberg has defended Edward Snowden's decision to flee and said "The country I stayed in was a different America".
Interesting remarks from Ellsberg, including this:
Quote:
But Snowdenís contribution to the noble cause of restoring the First, Fourth and Fifth amendments to the Constitution is in his documents. It depends in no way on his reputation or estimates of his character or motives ó still less, on his presence in a courtroom arguing the current charges, or his living the rest of his life in prison. Nothing worthwhile would be served, in my opinion, by Snowden voluntarily surrendering to U.S. authorities given the current state of the law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...0_story_1.html
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  #48  
Old July 19th, 2013, 08:43 AM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Head of the NSA says it is already harder to counter terrorists because of Snowden's leaks. Of course thats what you'd expect him to say but that doesn't change the fact that he is probably right. Snowden had ideals. So did the people who gave A Bomb & H Bomb secrets to Stalin and that didn't help the US either. Ideals don't operate in a vacuum. Hitler had his own ideals too. Some secrets do need to be kept. It is that kind of world.
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  #49  
Old July 19th, 2013, 05:56 PM
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Head of the NSA says it is already harder to counter terrorists because of Snowden's leaks. Of course thats what you'd expect him to say but that doesn't change the fact that he is probably right. Snowden had ideals. So did the people who gave A Bomb & H Bomb secrets to Stalin and that didn't help the US either. Ideals don't operate in a vacuum. Hitler had his own ideals too. Some secrets do need to be kept. It is that kind of world.
History has shown us that some of the most corrupt and oppressive political leaders have used the tactic of fear mongering to gain power and get people to wilingly cede their rights and liberties away.

Kalalau, it's up to you how you want to live your life. For me and others, it's takes more than some vague claims about counter terrorism efforts from NSA and the Obama administration in order to convince us that an unlimited spying program not subject to transpancy is necessary to our national security.

Already, Congress is seriously talking about legislation to place limits and institute a system of checks-and-balances on govt. spying to decrease the chance of someone abusing that power. You can thank one Edward Snowden for that.
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  #50  
Old July 19th, 2013, 09:34 PM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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It is a difficult call and I am not comfortable with it. We do not like being spied upon, its against everything the country says it stands for. And yet...if what the gvt says is true and they are not actually monitoring actual speech, just keying in on phrases or certain phone numbers, and if that can prevent another 3000 from being murdered, or prevent a nerve gas attack or an atomic attack, whatever...it does have appeal. Has the gvt ever lied? I couldn't begin to count!
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