How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I will insert a correction: An estimated 180,000 Kurds out of a population of 3.5 million. Not that any number makes it less significant.

However, only one unreliable source claims the Iraq war was greater than 1 million casualties. The remaining sources estimate (without the Kurdish slaughter) between 100,000-300,000. Although, looking at current tactics, most of their population is killing each other, while America has been exercising significant restraint.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

As I said earlier, Bush Sr.'s expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait and NOT going to Baghdad was one of the most brilliant military and political moves of the 20th century, it weakened Saddam Hussein but left him as a counterbalance to Iran. Now, with Iraq a basket case, voila: Iran is the big power in the middle east. Wow, never saw that coming. Anybody but an idiot would have, actually. And now we tax payers get to pay to sustain Iraq against Iran, Iran gets stronger, we get weaker, every day. Oh well. Empires come, empires go. All we had to do was leave it alone. bush knew damn well there were no wmd's, thats why the Downing St. Memo is so damning, showing the US distorting the intelligence that showed NO wmd's into saying there were.

A country only has so much resources. A huge amount needs to be reinvested every year in human and physical assets, infrastructure, education, health, etc. True, there is a certain amount you can squander on fun luxuries like the Vietnam War or Iraq, but it does add up, it does sap the strength of the country, its ability to perpetuate itself, this is a special problem when you are competing with countries like China that invest in themselves rather than indulge reckless irresponsible childish leaders war whims. Even if all those lives don't count, the money does add up, the stupidity will eventually strangle the economy. Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

In the case of one of the 9-11 attack planners, who was found guilty...

It was the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

Ah - you are confused.

Both Khalid Sheikh Mohammed & Osama Bin Laden have said that Moussaoui was not part of the 9/11 plan, and Moussaoui himself claimed that he was working on plans for a different attack and was not part of the 9/11 plot. He later claimed that he was, saying his earlier statement was a lie, yet no evidence has been released connecting him to those attacks.

From an affidavit filed by his attorneys after the trial:
10. During the plea colloquy I made it clear to the Court that I did not have knowledge of and was not a member of the plot to hijack and crash planes into buildings in September 11, 2001 but that I was part of another Al-Qaeda plot which was to occur after September 11, 2001.
11. My court appointed attorneys kept telling me that I should not testify and I thought that they would prevent me from testifying, so I decided to ask the government to let me testify as their witness.
12. It is my recollection that when the judge addressed the jury before my trial began, she informed the jury that I was part of the September 11 plot which further confirmed my distrust of the American justice system and further convinced me to testify since I was going to be given death for the September 11 plot anyway.
13. I decided to testify that I had knowledge of and was a member of the plot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings on September 11, 2001, even though I knew that was a complete fabrication.
14. I have never met Mohammed Atta and, while I may have seen a few of the other hijackers at the guesthouse, I never knew them or anything about their operation.
15. As I stated during my plea colloquy, I was in the United States as a member of Al-Qaeda but was involved in a separate operation...
18. Because I now see that it is possible that I can receive a fair trial even with Americans as jurors and that I can have the opportunity to prove that I did not have any knowledge of and was not a member of the plot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings on September 11, 2001, I wish to withdraw my guilty plea and ask the Court for a new trial to prove my innocence of the September 11 plot.

Zacarias Moussaoui is not considered to have been one of the 9/11 planners.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

One way to keep your country's leaders from starting reckless needless wars would be to hold them accountable at law. Not necessarily with the death penalty, but with hard prison time for things like the Vietnam War or Iraq. Punishment is deterrence, we do need to deter the leaders from reckless decision making.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Here we go, 1967, all over again. America, love it or leave it (but that doesn't count for the TeaBaggers does it). VietNam is better off today because they "won" the war. It is a relatively prosperous, stable country even though it doesn't meet that definition by ultra-conservative Americans. My buddy, who is a Peace Corps alumnus, works for the Foreign Service and is negotiating a catfish treaty with the VietNamese governement. He has been treated with nothing but respect and courtesy while there. Other friends are going to Hanoi on a ElderHostel program this Fall.

Fact is Nobu, you "lost" and you continue losing. Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Over one million combined deaths for what? So Nobe can say, "we could have won." Winning isn't everything. Sometimes you can "win" when you "lose" if you learn a valuable lession. Some people never learn. To them "winning" is everything.

I'm proud to say, "Hot damn, Viet Nam, Hell no, I didn't go!"

Hi Matapule,

I was in Vietnam in 1964 as a US soldier. This was before the Johnson escallation of the war, and I went back there in 1993, more than 15 years after our pullout. You are correct, that they are better off now, than they were in 1975, but I am not sure if they are actually better off now, than they would be if we won the war instead. Of course, in 1964, the US had only about 15,000 military personnel in Nam, and we were in an advisory role. I think a good comparison would be Korea. We won that conflict, and South Korea is FAR better off than North Korea.

In 1993, the Vietnamese people were more corrupt than ever. If you had money, you could buy your way though anything.

I didn't lose the Vietnam War, but I feel very sorry for the hundreds of thousands that were murdered because of our pullout.

Have you any idea why people were trying to escape the country? I met with some of the people who escaped by boat, and I really don't think most of the people in this country know how things were there after our pullout. I had a friend "Bau", who was lucky enough to get on one of our airplanes that left Nam for Guam. I wish you could have met him. I think you would have a very different idea if you learned from the people who were there, and lived though the transition.

Did you know that your chances of escaping Vietnam by boat was about 10% success? To walk out your chances was very close to ZERO. Young girls would not bathe for weeks before attempting to walk out of that country so if/when they got caught, they would only be murdered, and not raped and murdered.

It took Bau more than 15 years to get his family out of that country and into this one.

So, if you think I lost that war, I would have been glad to have taken that responsibility if it was mine.
Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

One way to keep your country's leaders from starting reckless needless wars would be to hold them accountable at law. Not necessarily with the death penalty, but with hard prison time for things like the Vietnam War or Iraq. Punishment is deterrence, we do need to deter the leaders from reckless decision making.

Hi Kalalau,
I partially agree with you. However, there are limitations.
When Iraq invaded and took over Kuwaite, we could have stayed out of the whole thing, and allowed the takeover, which included many murders and rapes of the Kawaiti people. Financially, we would have been way better off.

HOWEVER, if you see a murder taking place in your neighborhood, do you stay in your house and watch? And not help if you can???? Or do you at the very least, call the police, and hope they get there before someone gets killed? The difference, is being a good citizen, you have your duties. Being a citizen of this planet, we are obligated to ensure that smaller, weaker countries are not bullied by larger, more powerful countries.
Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Leo Lakio>. Both Khalid Sheikh Mohammed & Osama Bin Laden have said that Moussaoui was not part of the 9/11 plan, and Moussaoui himself claimed that he was working on plans for a different attack and was not part of the 9/11 plot. He later claimed that he was, saying his earlier statement was a lie, yet no evidence has been released connecting him to those attacks.

Hi Leo,
First of all, Moussaoui had his trial, and was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of his guilt, in conspiring to kill American citizens in the 9 -11 attacks.... I would not go by hear-say of any sort on that.

Obviously, all 12 of the jurors in his trial believed that he was at least partially responsible for the murders of the about 3,000 people in the 9-11 attacks. AND, ONE of the jurors felt in spite of being a part of about 3,000 murders, should not beget a death sentence.

Did you look at the questionaire that a juror must fill out in order to be on the jury in a death penalty trial?

If not, here it is: http://www.fjc.gov/public/pdf.nsf/lo...e/dpen0041.pdf

It would be very interesting if you too, like Matapule, might think that the lone juror who voted against the death sentence in that trial filled out the questionaire without lying.

Nobu

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The difference, is being a good citizen, you have your duties. Being a citizen of this planet, we are obligated to ensure that smaller, weaker countries are not bullied by larger, more powerful countries.

And that would include the USA.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

And that would include the USA.

Of course. It includes the USA, and moreso, the USA, being the most powerful country in the world, must be the authority or the police of it.

Whether we agree with it or not as an individual, we all make a pledge to our flag, and anyone in our military takes an oath to defend our country against all enemies, domestic and foriegn,

[Kaonohi]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Being a citizen of this planet, we are obligated to ensure that smaller, weaker countries are not bullied by larger, more powerful countries.
Nobu

Being a citizen of this planet, I am obligated to ensure that weaker, less powerful individuals are not bullied by larger, more powerful political organizations.
That is only ONE reason I am against capital punishment.

Capital punishment is the ultimate bullying.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Take it out of the hands of government... and privatize it.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

It includes the USA, and moreso, the USA, being the most powerful country in the world, must be the authority or the police of it.,

Another provincial colonialist.

[Kaonohi]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Kaonohi>Although a death penalty may seem a suitable deterrant, and may seem like justice in some cases, I do not believe in it.

Nobu> Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I disagree with you, and I will address your points.

Kaonohi> Death is preferable to life in prison for offenders (I know one).

Nobu> If death is preferable to life in prison, then please explain why those on Death Row do not forfiet all of their appeals to die sooner, and that most will gladly take a commuted sentence of Life Without the possibility of parole instead? In the case presented in this very forum about the murder trials that took place in Connecticut, why do you think the defense offered a plea deal so that the two murderers could avoid a death sentence?

Kaonohi> Death is a cheap 'out' for cash-strapped governments.

Nobu> That is true, and "life in prison" is far more expensive.

Kaonohi> Death is irreversible, in cases where new evidence comes to light.

Nobu> You also cannot take the years of wrongful incarceration if someone is innocent but wrongfully convicted. So the time spent in prison is also irreversible. Since you see it that way, how about just imposing a fine for murder? That way, if a mistake is made, we can always reimburse the wrongfully convicted?

Kaonohi> If we are to impose punishments upon offenders, we should be prepared to pay the price.

Nobu> True. It is actually cheaper to give an armed robber the cash he would normally net in his crime than to prosecute and punish him. So do you propose that we do away with our penal system????

Kaonohi> Death, unless in the hands of God (or whatever you believe), is simply murder under a different name.

Nobu> Best that you take out your dictionary and look up the definition of murder.

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human. Depends on who you consider the law, I guess.

I created an elaborate answer to your mewling, but the computer logged me out unexpectedly. Oh well.

Most of your comments I considered baiting. It seems obvious you know no one on death row nor anyone serving a life sentence.

Lifers are always hoping for release or death, with release primary except for some who cannot readjust to civilian life.

If we choose a punishment for a crime, we must b e willing to pay the price, in cost, in social issues, moral issues or whatever. Each of us, as individuals. I guess you like killing people for some reason, as you are willing to accept this responsibility.

Gandhi said: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Granted, we cannot let murderers run free; should we instead look for efficient ways at eliminating our responsibility?
I have no love for people who abrogate their responsibility to "laws, ordinances," or whatever. Either we do what is right or we fail. You cannot shift the blame.
It is better that 100 murderers spend their life in prison than one innocent person get murdered by the government.

"Murder: The crime of unlawfully killing a person."

Depends on who or what you consider as the arbiter of lawful.

You and I are miles apart. You are a killer, by default.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Being a citizen of this planet, I am obligated to ensure that weaker, less powerful individuals are not bullied by larger, more powerful political organizations.
That is only ONE reason I am against capital punishment.

Capital punishment is the ultimate bullying.

I disagree. Capital punishment only takes place after a crime and conviction. Ideal, would be no crime in the first place, but when there is a crime, the perpetrator should be punished accordingly. A minor crime should beget minor punishment, and a major crime should beget major punishment.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Capital punishment for political leaders--if it was right to execute Tojo and members of his war cabinet in Japan, and many German officials for illegal war activities after WW2, shouldn't some form of justice be exacted against American officials responsible for the Vietnam carnage and the murders of up to a million Iraqis? Not necessarily the death penalty, but some form of punishment. We are not talking about mere failure here, failure happens, we are talking about deliberate evil intent in starting a war. In the case of Vietnam, it is known that the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was provoked in order to defraud the Congress into giving Johnson war powers. Defrauding the Congress is a big felony. Count up to 3 million deaths resulting from that fraud. The lies of bush leading up to his Iraq war are well documented. Maybe it was a mistake to set the precedent of trying and exacting justice against WW2 leaders, but the precedent is there. It is not enough to make an honest mistake, or to fail, or to lose, there must be actual malicious evil intent. How can anyone deny that that existed in American leadership during the Vietnam War (that Gulf of Tonkin fraud for starts) and the lies about wmds in Iraq. Of course our leaders will not be punished. If Hitler had won, he wouldn't have been punished, either. It all just goes to show that the concept of justice, legal justice, is ultimately just bs. Taking the Presidential oath of office gives you license to murder millions, you will never be called to answer or even explain. Justice exacted against leaders of the Vietnam and Iraq wars would serve an incredibly valuable lesson for future leaders, because for now, they take the oath of office knowing they are 100% immune from prosecution or even investigation of their war crimes, they are free to attack anybody they want. History proves it.