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  • Firearms in the USA

    We have been talking about this, and arguing, so maybe it's time to take the pulse of HT to see where we stand.

    You may make MULTIPLE selections, and it's anonymous, so be honest.

    Where do you stand on the 2nd Amendment rights, and on guns/firearms in general?
    37
    The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
    21.62%
    8
    Some people should be excluded from the 2nd amendment rights.
    18.92%
    7
    Some firearm types (e.g., machine guns) should be banned.
    21.62%
    8
    Ownership is unrestricted, but carry rights are conditional.
    8.11%
    3
    Ownership only by 'law-abiding citizens" is permitted.
    8.11%
    3
    Both ownership and carry rights are only for trained and screened people.
    10.81%
    4
    Citizens should "prove a need" to own or carry firearms.
    0.00%
    0
    Both ownership and carry rights are only for trained and screened law enforcement and security.
    2.70%
    1
    Only Law Enforcement should have firearms.
    5.41%
    2
    All firearms that can be found should be banned and destroyed.
    2.70%
    1

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Kaonohi; January 23, 2011, 02:54 PM.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  • #2
    Re: Firearms in the USA

    We are all very thankful for Rep. Giffords good recovery but not all shootings have what could be called such happy endings. More typical, the recent accidental shooting at an LA school where a boy put down a sack with a gun in it, the gun discharged and shot two students. Unlike Rep. Giffords, in the case of one student the bullet fragmented parts of the victim's skull leading to massive brain damage. Innocent, just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and condemned to God knows what. And tonight, four shot at a Walmart in Washington St. Its a hell of a price to pay for gun rights, but the guns ARE out there, restrictions would only fall on harmless law abiding citizens who aren't a problem. Criminals and determined wackos will never have a problem getting all the guns they want. And truly, do we want to live in a world where only Big Government has the guns? Looking at past history, would that really be wise? I think not. Just don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Easy, right?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Firearms in the USA

      Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
      Its a hell of a price to pay for gun rights, but the guns ARE out there, restrictions would only fall on harmless law abiding citizens who aren't a problem. Criminals and determined wackos will never have a problem getting all the guns they want. And truly, do we want to live in a world where only Big Government has the guns? Looking at past history, would that really be wise? I think not. Just don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Easy, right?
      Not so easy. From statistics I have seen it is usually, or at least often, that guns used in violence, accidental or other, are illegally obtained.
      It's like, 'Why have laws when nobody adheres to them?' I can give millions of examples, and we have so many restrictive laws that people don't even know what they are!

      Driving slower than following traffic in the left lane = illegal!
      Driving with your puppy in your lap = illegal!

      But these laws are NOT enforced, so what good are they?

      AFAIK, there's no way to keep illegal guns out of illegal hands, so the law is toothless and we suffer.
      Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
      ~ ~
      Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
      Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
      Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Firearms in the USA

        Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
        Driving with your puppy in your lap = illegal!
        Well, only in Hawai`i (IIRC), but other states are considering it as well.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Firearms in the USA

          Training.
          Exclusionary.
          Open and closed carry.
          Do not infringe.
          FutureNewsNetwork.com
          Energy answers are already here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Firearms in the USA

            While I am currently not a gun owner, the 2nd amendment right to bear arms should not be infringed on.

            I went to the shooting range once. It was fun. Unfortunately I shot mostly at the dirt instead of hitting the target. 9mm Glock.
            I'm still here. Are you?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Firearms in the USA

              Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
              From statistics I have seen it is usually, or at least often, that guns used in violence, accidental or other, are illegally obtained..
              And where do the illegal guns come from? Stolen from people who obtained them legally! Case in point. A few years ago, someone broke into my borther's house and stole his handgun that he kept for "protection." That was the most valuable item taken.

              A majority of the illegal guns captured in Mexico from the drug gangs, are imported illegally from the US.
              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Firearms in the USA

                Originally posted by mel View Post
                the 2nd amendment right to bear arms should not be infringed on..
                There is significant disagreement among Constitutional scholars about what was meant by the writer's of the Second Amendment. Therefore, arguments of "the Second Amedment shall not be infringed" have little Constitutional merit.
                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                Comment


                • #9
                  Where illegally held guns come from.

                  Originally posted by matapule View Post
                  And where do the illegal guns come from? Stolen from people who obtained them legally!
                  That's a bit of a simplification, actually. Illegally owned guns do come from illegal activities, but this can occur anywhere from the factory (diversion of goods), the police (reporting guns as MIA, but selling them), the military, smuggled from overseas (most fully-automatic weapons are acquired this way, and there are criminals in Hawai`i who have them), or stolen/diverted from dealers.

                  An aside: It's usually not the guns that are illegal, only banned types of guns are rightly called 'illegal guns,' (such as full-auto machine guns). More properly the guns should be called "illegally owned guns."
                  We don't really know where they all come from, only the ones that are recovered by police.

                  According to an Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) source, only about 10% of illegally owned guns come from thefts! An enlightening article!
                  Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                  ~ ~
                  Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                  Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                  Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Where illegally held guns come from.

                    Originally posted by mel View Post
                    I went to the shooting range once. It was fun. Unfortunately I shot mostly at the dirt instead of hitting the target. 9mm Glock.
                    Glad you enjoyed your experience. One of the main reasons for missing the target is jerking the trigger at the last second. It's difficult to notice yourself doing it; it's a lot easier with someone watching your hands. The main cause of jerking is anticipating recoil; which even champion shooters suffer from, time to time. It's like catching a cold, with dry firing being the chicken soup.


                    Originally posted by matapule View Post
                    A few years ago, someone broke into my borther's house and stole his handgun that he kept for "protection." That was the most valuable item taken.
                    I consider securing your firearm an important responsibility of gun ownership. Some people think "hiding" it is good enough. Some people mistakenly think putting it in a safe or lock box is good enough. Did you bolt that safe into the foundation of your house or a part of your home's superstructure? If the criminal can carry the safe away, they'll have all the time in the world to open it up. Did you spend the money on a quality safe which can't be pried open with a crowbar? If you use an external padlock, is there a lock shroud to prevent the criminal from simply using a sledge hammer or bolt cutters on it?

                    I've wondered if there should be a law that made the gun owner partially responsible for crimes committed using their stolen gun. I haven't thought through all the ramifications of that, though.


                    A majority of the illegal guns captured in Mexico from the drug gangs, are imported illegally from the US.
                    I haven't done any research on the topic. Some people say most of the drug cartels get their guns from corrupt Mexican military and police. Perhaps the U.S. gives the Mexican government the guns, and they give them to the criminals? But as I've said, I haven't done the research to check their claims.


                    Originally posted by matapule View Post
                    There is significant disagreement among Constitutional scholars about what was meant by the writer's of the Second Amendment.
                    Thank goodness there is only one version of the Constitution and it was written in English. I think there are at least 8 major translations of the Bible?


                    Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                    According to an Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) source, only about 10% of illegally owned guns come from thefts! An enlightening article!
                    Thanks for the link. That's an interesting read. I wonder what happens to a FFL holder whose guns are used in a crime? I'm guessing they just say, "Hey, the customer passed the FBI's NICS check, what can I do?"

                    I assume the customer in a strawman deal gets a felony on their record, so they can no longer purchase a firearm, but criminals breed like roaches and there will a new "adult" with a clean record to make another purchase.

                    I heard a story of a young street punk walking into a gun store and asking to buy 10 Hi-Point (cheap) guns. Luckily the store owner refused to sell them to him.
                    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                    "
                    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Where illegally held guns come from.

                      Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                      I consider securing your firearm an important responsibility of gun ownership. Some people think "hiding" it is good enough. Some people mistakenly think putting it in a safe or lock box is good enough. Did you bolt that safe into the foundation of your house or a part of your home's superstructure? If the criminal can carry the safe away, they'll have all the time in the world to open it up. Did you spend the money on a quality safe which can't be pried open with a crowbar? If you use an external padlock, is there a lock shroud to prevent the criminal from simply using a sledge hammer or bolt cutters on it?
                      Something I forgot to mention. Securing your firearms against theft while absent is essential! It is part of safety training from the schools in Hawai`i I know about. Of course, if you have 24/7 concealed carry it ceases to be a problem (unless you have an arsenal!).
                      Criminals already know the best 'hiding places.'

                      Joe gives good recommendations!
                      Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                      ~ ~
                      Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                      Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                      Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Firearms in the USA

                        Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                        I've wondered if there should be a law that made the gun owner partially responsible for crimes committed using their stolen gun. I haven't thought through all the ramifications of that, though.
                        Similarly, I wonder if there should be a law to make the owner of a stolen automobile partially responsible for crimes committed using their stolen car...

                        No.

                        In most (if not all) states, if your legally owned possession is stolen and used to commit a crime, you are actually a victim of the original crime (theft), and your responsibilities are absolved. (This is not the same as neglect, such as leaving an unlocked loaded firearm in a closet and having a child find it and shoot someone.)

                        Using my slightly sarcastic response above, cars are way easier to steal, and more likely to be used to commit crimes (joyriding, robberies, hit & runs). You as the car owner certainly wouldn't want the responsibilities of the thief just because your car was used in the crime, right? This goes for any of your property, including firearms.

                        The gray area, where states aren't in agreement, is when your property is not actually stolen. If you loan your possessions to a "friend" and they go out and commit a crime with it, some states may or may not hold you partially responsible (and in extreme cases, consider you an "accessory" to the crime!). The easiest example of this is if you're the owner of a car, and your 16 year-old child uses it and gets in an accident that results in a fatality. Since a minor (most likely) can't be prosecuted for the death, the civil suit will end up on the parent and the title holder of the vehicle. THIS is where the similarities lie with a firearm. It's just really gray because who can prove that you legitimately loaned your possession to someone?

                        If a firearm is stolen, chances are you will never get it back. Insurance will more than likely cover it in excess of the worth of the firearm, and therefore you can buy another one. The responsible owner/victim will report the theft to the police, ensuring the serial number and model is included, such that if it actually does end up used to commit a crime, it's already flagged as stolen. In a rare case of recovery, if it's not used in a crime, you 'might' get it back. But if it is used in a crime, it will fall in the never-ending evidence chain-of-custody, and after the proceedings are complete, may never be released back to the original owner. By then, your insurance company should have already compensated you on the loss.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Firearms in the USA

                          Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                          Of course, if you have 24/7 concealed carry it ceases to be a problem
                          I agree. The safest place to keep your firearm is on your body, where you have control over it.

                          I'm not ready to actually sleep with a firearm. I'd be too worried about having a nightmare and waking up with it in my hand. Maybe leave the chamber empty with the gun decocked? Anyways, I'd be a 16/7 carrier.

                          I heard of people who will put their gun in a ziplock bag and bring it in the shower with them. I think that's unnecessary, if you lock your bathroom door, lock your bedroom door, and have a security alarm. That should cause a lot of noise and give you enough time to get ready.

                          A bit paranoid, if you ask me. Then again, everyone lives in different circumstances.


                          Originally posted by bjd392 View Post
                          In most (if not all) states, if your legally owned possession is stolen and used to commit a crime, you are actually a victim of the original crime (theft), and your responsibilities are absolved. (This is not the same as neglect, such as leaving an unlocked loaded firearm in a closet and having a child find it and shoot someone.)
                          Ahh, so the main thing is whether the owner was negligent in the security of their firearm.

                          easier to steal a car than a firearm.../nod
                          negligence vs. victim of theft.../nod
                          using gray font to talk about gray areas.../nod
                          having your gun disappear in the pit of evidence.../nod

                          You made a lot of good points, BJD. Well thought out and written. Definite food for thought. Thanks!
                          "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                          "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                          "
                          Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Firearms in the USA

                            Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                            Ahh, so the main thing is whether the owner was negligent in the security of their firearm.
                            There are more laws that narrow a focus on firearm negligence when children are around, because of the whole "they don't know any better" mentality. Leaving an unlocked loaded firearm in the same house where children live is asking for trouble. If they can climb counters and cabinets to get to a cookie jar 8 feet off the ground, a kid will be resourceful enough to snoop around a closet or drawer and find guns. The negligent part is knowing there are people around who don't know the consequences that could result from an action you didn't proactively pursue.

                            On the other hand, if you decide to leave an unlocked (or locked) loaded (or unloaded) firearm (or any other weapon) anywhere in your house, whether hidden or in plain sight, and someone breaks in and steals it, you are still a victim of theft/burglary, and you have no responsibility to the results of your weapon being used in a future crime.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Firearms in the USA

                              Originally posted by bjd392 View Post
                              There are more laws that narrow a focus on firearm negligence when children are around, because of the whole "they don't know any better" mentality. Leaving an unlocked lo
                              Oops, deleted more than intended.
                              Still:

                              Allowing innocents to access non-innocent devices is (AFAIAC) a violation\in itself.
                              Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                              ~ ~
                              Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                              Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                              Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                              Comment

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