Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

[Lei Liko]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

....Hawai‘i drivers have a long and consistent history of rubbernecking.

That's a really nice way to say that we're just damn nosey!

[scrivener]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Okay. I got a question, and if a moderator thinks this is off-topic, I apologize and I'll take it elsewhere.

Let's say the guy driving the truck is in the military. Someone tells him to take this thing on the freeway. Knowing state law, the driver says he's ultimately responsible, in the eyes of Hawaii, for this cargo and any damage it might cause. He thinks the load is too high. Someone he's supposed to take orders from tells him he's not supposed to question the orders. He gets in the truck and drives his load onto the freeway, taking out three signs and a pedestrian overpass, resulting in this mess that happened last night.

Is he more criminal for taking a load he knew was too high than he'd be if he'd refused to endanger the people of Hawaii following an irresponsible order?

[damontucker]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

IMHO - I'm assuming he was operating under orders!

Nobody does too much in the military w/out some sort of directive...

Had he refused... I'm assuming he would be in even more trouble.

[tutusue]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

This is the one you're setting me up with, right?

<tee hee> Yes...but don't tell her, 'kay?!!!!!

[scrivener]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Had he refused... I'm assuming he would be in even more trouble.

I'm not asking about "trouble." I'm asking about being "criminal." Manoa, you're one of the ones I'm directing this question at, so please think about it before you answer. Which is more reprehensible: Taking this load on the freeway, knowing it's too tall, or refusing the order?

[damontucker]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

I'm not asking about "trouble." I'm asking about being "criminal." Manoa, you're one of the ones I'm directing this question at, so please think about it before you answer. Which is more reprehensible: Taking this load on the freeway, knowing it's too tall, or refusing the order?

Scriv - this question you are asking is eerily similar to the Watada case...While big differences do apply to both cases.

The question is... do you do your assigned duty that was assigned to you by a superior... or do you refuse orders on your own conscience?

This being the driver knows that if he goes...he's going to smack the overpass...thus causing disruptions and hardships for the island.... (possibly even death if an ambulance is not able to get to someone in a fast enough response time...or back to the hospital...etc.... Extreme example... but could have happened)

At least he is following his orders of the person above him... who if you go down the line far enough you get to the president of the United States.

If you have signed an agreement to be a part of the Army... I believe you must follow your orders of your superiors.... If you do not... that is Contempt and therefore criminal... and you should have thought about that before joining.

Had he just taken out the flatbed for a cruise to go get lunch on his off time...then this would be a totally different situation. He was under orders by the US military to transport Government Equipment.

I'm not a big believer of the Military and/or it's actions... However, I do support our troops and I feel that they should always listen to their orders... Even if it means doing something that they no is illegal.

Do I think a lot of soldiers are taking the fall for higher ups in the GITMO scandal...yes... However, they seem to take their punishment and do their time.

To answer the question... Refusing the order to me would be more "Criminal" in the court of law.

Very good question though scrivener - and I'm sure they're will be different points and sides to this question.... (guarans because I'm posting...someone will have to at least hate on me at least once for this answer)

I hope this hasn't totally derailed this thread!

[LocoBoy]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Well if it were me, I'd do the latter. I mean couldn't the would be driver have some grounds for an appeal for consequences received if he did refuse to take a "too high" load onto the freeway? IMHO

[Adri]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

in a case where the driver was actually aware that the load was too high, at the very least the driver would/should document informing her/his superior officer that this would cause a problem and why it would cause a problem and request alternatives to the initial order. If there were other considerations that outweighed the probable outcome of the accident and there were no reasonable alternatives (hard to imagine, but if), then I would think the soldier would have to follow orders to drive the vehicle as it was on the path it took but taking any reasonable measures to mitigate the damage. But this is more a case of no one even thought about it, it seems.

[nachodaddy]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Scriv - this question you are asking is eerily similar to the Watada case...While big differences do apply to both cases.

The question is... do you do your assigned duty that was assigned to you by a superior... or do you refuse orders on your own conscience?

This being the driver knows that if he goes...he's going to smack the overpass...thus causing disruptions and hardships for the island.... (possibly even death if an ambulance is not able to get to someone in a fast enough response time...or back to the hospital...etc.... Extreme example... but could have happened)

At least he is following his orders of the person above him... who if you go down the line far enough you get to the president of the United States.

If you have signed an agreement to be a part of the Army... I believe you must follow your orders of your superiors.... If you do not... that is Contempt and therefore criminal... and you should have thought about that before joining.

Had he just taken out the flatbed for a cruise to go get lunch on his off time...then this would be a totally different situation. He was under orders by the US military to transport Government Equipment.

I'm not a big believer of the Military and/or it's actions... However, I do support our troops and I feel that they should always listen to their orders... Even if it means doing something that they no is illegal.

Do I think a lot of soldiers are taking the fall for higher ups in the GITMO scandal...yes... However, they seem to take their punishment and do their time.

To answer the question... Refusing the order to me would be more "Criminal" in the court of law.

Very good question though scrivener - and I'm sure they're will be different points and sides to this question.... (guarans because I'm posting...someone will have to at least hate on me at least once for this answer)

I hope this hasn't totally derailed this thread!

Apples and oranges. One is a matter of physics. One is a matter of perception. One is easy to prove (height of load versus height of overpass). One is very difficult to prove.

And yes, we have gone off topic.

[tutusue]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

[...]And like you said, tutu, last night was mostly about just getting from point A to point B. Try adding to that scenario the looming and swift arrival of a tsunami of unknown proportions. I'm wondering how many, if any, improvements have been made Civil Defense-wise since the last major tsunami warning that created gridlock back in the mid-90's. If it happened tomorrow, would you know what to do? Would you try to get home to Makaha, or would you stay in town? But then is Kaka'ako still a safe enough area for a tsunami? Would you head for the hills or try staying with friends who live higher up instead?[...]

The mid-80s tsunami warning affected me a lot more than the mid-90s one as I was living in the tsunami zone and needed to evacuate. My home had a semi-circle driveway with 2 gates. People panicked and tried passing the vehicles in front of them by using my driveway. My youngest daughter, tenants and myself couldn't even get off the property 'til a tenant risked harm and stood in the middle of the street and stopped traffic! We abandoned the car about 4 blocks and one hour later to walk to my daughter's friends home on a hillside about a mile away. Turned out to be a fun evening! I was near the base of Diamond Head and not in the evacuation zone during the mid 90s evacuation so stayed put.

Should I be in my Makaha condo and something like the Indonesia tsunami hits...I'm history. There would be no time to get anywhere safe. I'd head for the roof of the 4 story complex but I doubt that would be an adequate height. If I happened to be in Kakaako I'd immediately run across the street to the fire dept. headquarters. If I'm gonna 'go', I'm gonna 'go' in the arms of hunks! While my distance from the ocean in Kakaako is certainly safer than Makaha I doubt it's safe enough for anything close to what Indonesia experienced. I doubt the old building in which i have my office would withstand much.

Yesterday's traffic gridlock brought the entire island to it's knees. Thank God it wasn't due to a natural disaster.

[Peshkwe]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Having been in the military and driven the humongus 14+ ton forklifts with munitions out to the flightline before, ten to one, the guy driving was doing just that...driving.

He prolly had no clue about anything other than to drive the thing from point A to point B. Most likely other people loaded the equipment on the truck, gave him the route and sent him off.

If he had known about the state regs and gone out of his way to find out the top height of the excavator...added it into the height of the truckbed and knew the clearance of all the bridges and overpasses on the route...

The only thing he really could have done was to call his superior and voice his opinion that it could possibly create a danger. At that point, unless the superior intervened, it'd be more 'criminal' for him to disobey the order.

[Adri]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Although if the driver really did hit trees and hanging street signs along the way, he should have had some warning that he wasn't going to make it under the overpass. Unless he somehow just didn't notice the other things he was banging into.

[tutusue]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Tutusue;

Another thing to be glad for is that your radiator blew in slow moving traffic instead of on a windy mountain road. Face full of white, been there......... and contrary to popular belief, it can happen without any warning to the driver. See Boyles and Charles Law for clarification.

I'm soooo glad it happened during creeping instead of speeding. Turns out my car has some type of a sensor that detects a *serious* problem before gauges and warning lamps have time to register it. It then shuts off the engine to prevent further engine damage, which is why I had a difficult time steering and braking. Can't imagine what I woulda done at 60 mph. The mechanic said I would've been able to steer and brake (without power) but it sure didn't feel like it.

I hope you weren't alone and far away from civilization when your radiator blew.

Hope your replacement ride is as pimp as your original

Heh! Hardly! But, wheels are wheels and I'm thankful for them!

A friend told me today that she was shocked at the number of vehicles she saw on the side of the road with their hoods up. I saw one tow truck pass me last night that was towing the same make of car as mine!

[Peshkwe]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Although if the driver really did hit trees and hanging street signs along the way, he should have had some warning that he wasn't going to make it under the overpass. Unless he somehow just didn't notice the other things he was banging into.

Military trucks aren't exactly known for their quiet ride. Between the engine, road rumble, the excavator in the back thumping and creaking with the movement and radio squawk box squawking... the sign and tree wacking would only be a minor addition to the general din.

Unless the trucks are alot classier than when I was in....shoot...they'd tie chunks of 2x4 to the pedals so I could reach em.

[damontucker]

Re: Crane crunches Aiea pedestrian overpass

Why wasn't the INBOUND traffic that is not much used contraflowed?

Kick off the people coming into town instead of pau hana traffic!